►
From YouTube: Peace Talks: Transforming the Housing Crisis by Design
Description
Peace Talks: Transforming the Housing Crisis by Design: How Industrial Revolution in Housing Construction Can Thread the Needle for New Development in Vermont
From Peace Talks:
In this episode, we are exploring innovative solutions to the housing crisis in Vermont. We talk with Jason Van Nest who is an Architect, a professor at NY-Tech, and the Founder & CEO of LOGIC Building Systems. The crux of the matter is that new, affordable homes need to be built for younger, more diverse populations, but not at the expense of existing Vermont communities or the environment. Conventional approaches to development have struggled to address these issues because of the complex dynamic systems at play. Economic, social, and environmental interests all overlap in contradictory ways when it comes to housing. But what if there was a way to address these overlapping interests and needs by shifting our focus from home construction to industrial revolution? Tune in and see how an architect is transforming the housing market by design.
Show Guest: Jason Van Nest, Architect, professor at NYTech, and the founder & CEO of LOGIC Building Systems
4/12/2023
https://linktr.ee/townmeetingtv
Town Meeting TV is a free speech forum and the ideas expressed do not necessarily reflect the views of the Town Meeting TV trustees and staff. If you have a different perspective to share, we invite you to join the conversation! Create your own program or cover a community meeting or event. Contact maketv@cctv.org or call 862-3966.
Thank you for tuning into Town Meeting TV! Please subscribe to our YouTube channel and visit our website for more videos and information about how we open the doors to local government using community media. www.Ch17.TV
This video belongs to http://www.cctv.org and published with permission under Creative Commons License CCTV Center for Media & Democracy Programming is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 4.0 International License.
A
Too
often
the
media
focuses
exclusively
on
the
violent
and
tumultuous
crises
occurring
daily
around
the
world
and
with
clickbait
exploiting
negative
social
events
for
the
sake
of
increased
ratings
in
Revenue.
There
are
few
incentives
for
media
Outlets
to
focus
on
the
good
that
is
happening
in
the
world
every
day.
Even
media
channels
dedicated
to
peace,
building
and
sustainable
development
remain
focused
on
the
ills
of
corruption,
war
and
conflict,
rather
than
the
efforts
of
Peace
Builders
within
those
conflicts.
A
But
peace
talks
too,
and
with
this
show,
the
voice
of
Peace
will
be
Amplified.
Mr
Rogers
is
often
quoted
in
saying
that,
when
crisis
strikes
look
for
the
helpers,
this
show
intends
to
do
just
that
every
day,
right
here
in
Vermont
and
around
the
U.S,
there
are
thousands
of
engaged
citizens
actively
building
peace.
We
plan
to
amplify
their
efforts
and
we
seek
to
develop
a
platform
where
peace
Builders
all
over
can
connect
with
each
other
across
social
boundaries
and
Industry
sectors
to
collaborate
for
the
benefit
of
our
Collective
community.
A
Ladies
and
gentlemen,
this
is
peace
talks
and
today
we
are
meeting
with
Jason
Van
Nest.
He
is
an
architect,
a
professor
at
New,
York
Tech
and
the
founder
and
CEO
of
build
with
logic,
glad
to
have
you
on
the
show
Jason,
it's
a
pleasure
to
join
you
and
your
audience.
Thank
you.
Yeah
no
I
I'm
really
delighted
to
be
talking
with
you,
because
I
think
your
perspective
on
on
all
of
these.
A
You
know
issues
of
Peace,
building
and
development
and
and
how
we
engage
with
our
communities
is
just
you
know
squarely
in
line
with
a
lot
of
what
I
think
you
believe
in
and
so
I'm
just
excited
to
have
you
here?
How
about
we
kick
it
off
with
tell
us
about
yourself.
Tell
us
what
you're
doing
right
now
sure.
B
I
have
struck
out
to
found
a
modular
Building
Company
based
in
southern
Vermont,
we're
focusing
on
bringing
all
of
the
sort
of
manufacturing
wisdom
that
we've
developed
in
the
say,
Automotive
or
Airline
Aerospace
sector
we're
bringing
that
into
cure.
Some
of
the
issues
that
we
see
in
construction.
The.
A
A
B
A
B
B
B
A
A
B
A
B
We're
not
participating
in
that
Marketplace,
but
in
the
modular
marketplace,
where
okay,
you
know,
City
governments
would
use
Municipal
municipal
code
to
dictate.
You
know
hey,
we
need
to
inspect
your
kitchen
and
bathroom
and
they
can
on
site.
Your
larger
question,
though,
was
you
know
how
what
kind
of
influence
I
think
are
we
trying
to
to
bring
to
this
yeah.
A
B
Just
Marketplace
but
Community
right
and
by
reducing
the
amount
of
time
it
takes
to
build
multi-family
housing
and
coming
to
Market
with
a
solution
that
doesn't
require
a
bunch
of
Tradesmen
to
coordinate.
We
can
both
come
in
and
cost
less
to
build
the
same
collection
in
kitchens
bathrooms
and
take
less
time,
which
means
that
there
are
fewer
resources
that
communities
need
to
dedicate
to
really
it's
the
same
amount
of
housing
wow.
So
we're
pretty
excited
about
essentially
creating
more
stakeholders
and
more
Community
Access
to
low.
A
A
Yeah,
that's
that's
not
something
you
normally
hear
in
like
housing,
market
conversations,
Workforce
Development,
but
you
have
talked
with
me
about
it.
A
little
bit
and
I
think
you're
winning
me
over.
You
know
that
this
is
really
more
about
Workforce
Development
than
it
is
about
housing.
Can
you
can
you
kind
of
spell
that
out
yeah.
B
B
A
B
Sort
of
community
cores
of
Vermont
like
what
we're
trying
to
do
in
southern
Vermont
and
push
more
wisdom,
technical
ability
and
paychecks
towards
the
higher.
You
know,
manufacturing
jobs
that
yeah
we'd
all
like
to
see
in
our
communities
at
a
sort
of
more
granular
level,
I
think
anyone
who's
tried
to
sort
of
get
a
toilet,
unplugged
or
unclogged.
A
B
Some
extra
wiring,
maybe
a
new
light
installed
in
the
last
10
years.
You
know
a
lot
of
the
tradesmen's
trucks
running
around
our
cities.
Right
now
have
you
know,
addresses
for
different
states.
Massachusetts
folks
are
in
high
demand
in
southern
Vermont,
New
Hampshire
and
New
York
folks
in
Northern
Vermont.
So
what
we've,
unfortunately
seen
for
a
long
time
in
in
our
Vermont
Community
is
a
bit
of
a
brain
drain
where
we
we
raise
really
outstanding
children
that
realize
that
there
are
a
lot
more
Greener
fields
to
raise
money
and
have
a
career
than
Vermont.
B
My
own
five-year-old's
going
to
be
facing
these
issues
shortly
right,
so
we're
really
trying
to
address
the
Workforce
Development
problem.
We
just
don't
have
enough
Tradesmen
that
are
running
around
Vermont
and
so
by
opening
a
manufacturing
facility
where
Tradesmen
can
train
hey.
Let's
install
a
toilet
five
times
this
morning
in
five
different
modules.
Those
Tradesmen
that
don't
feel
like
manufacturing
is
right
for
them.
Hopefully,
we'll
have
a
vibrant
career
yeah
where
I
live
in
Brattleboro
yeah
there
are
the
average
housing
stock
was
studied.
It
was
74
years
old
in
in
2021,
so
yeah.
B
A
A
I
mean
I
definitely
see
the
value
in
that
for
communities.
I,
think
that
you
know
bringing
that
bringing
trades
back
to
Vermont
and
showing
the
respect
to
those
types
of
professions
that
I
think
they
deserve
is
is
really
it's.
It's
important
work,
and
you
know,
on
the
other
side,
you're
also
talking
about
resolving
some
of
this
housing.
Some
of
these
housing
issues
that
we're
having
with
you
know,
reduced
cost
to
housing,
allowing
more
people
to
participate
in
what
has
often
been
considered.
A
The
American
dream
you
know
of
having
having
your
own
home
and
and
being
able
to
to
be
involved
in
community
in
that
way,
so
you
know
I
I
love
all
of
this
and
I
think
I
want
to
dig
into
some
of
these
points
a
little
bit
further,
but
before
we
get
into
that,
I
want
to
understand
where
you,
where
you
started
with
this,
you
know
what
what
got
you
started
on
this
journey
and
and
how
did
you
end
up
in
the
place
that
you're
at
now?
You
know
sure.
B
B
So
after
18
months
of
trying
to
do
the
New,
York
City
lifestyle
I
just
actually
burned
out,
sold
all
my
belongings
hiked
to
the
Appalachian
Trail,
at
least
just
from
Atlanta
back
to
New
York
and
I
learned
out
there
in
the
wilderness,
really
all
the
things
internally
that
were
holding
me
back
and
then
the
simple
Act
of
like
setting
up
your
tent
every
night
and
oh,
is
it
gonna
rain?
You
know,
should
I
put
it
up
in
this
Bluff
of
trees.
Yeah,
you
know,
I
became
the
world's
best
site
planning,
Professor
accidentally
right.
B
Love
that
so,
when
I
came
back
to
New
York
and
then
eventually
went
through
grad
school
I
was
certain
architecture
was
my
path
and
I
was
blessed
to
land
in
a
class
in
grad
school
that
taught
programming,
I
didn't
even
qualify
for
the
class.
I
was
too
young,
so
I
volunteered
to
be
the
TA,
oh
just
because
I
was
so
urgently
needing
to
learn
how
to
make
the
tools
that
designers
use
to
design
housing
and.
B
A
B
Then,
having
that
thing
draw
all
your
drawings
for
you,
so
for
for
10
years,
I
was
running
with
my
little
brief
briefcase
on
the
tenure
track
at
New,
York
Tech,
but
also
flipping
architecture
firms
from
one
workflow,
which
is
you're
responsible
for
every
line
to
another
workflow,
which
is,
let
me
show
you
how
to
make
a
model
think
3D
how
you
lay
up
the
walls,
how
you
lay
up
the
modules.
How
you
lay
up
everything
is
a
preview
of
how
this
thing
will
be
constructed
and,
let's
think
holistically,
you.
A
B
B
So
I
mean
from
a
professional
point
of
view,
what
I
realized
quickly
was
that
we,
as
Architects,
are
making
a
product
model
yeah
and
professionally
the
folks
that
kept
hiring
me
back
for
my
Consulting
experience
were
in
the
modular
industry.
Oh,
if
Jace
helps
us
build
one,
you
know
Digital
model.
We
can
make
80.
yeah
right,
which
is
like
a
huge
return
on
their
investment,
but
from
a
sort
of
social
point
of
view.
B
Communicate
your
idea
exactly
yeah
and
and
what
what
we're
transitioning
still
in
the
in
the
field
of
Architecture
is
from
representation
to
simulation
interesting.
So
here's
a
3D
model
I
can
even
time
how
it
sort
of
appears
and
that'll
be
a
simulacrum
or
a
simulation
of
How
It's
constructed
interesting.
And
if
we
move
this,
we
can
get
immediate
feedback.
A
B
A
B
And
the
materials
are
ordered
yeah
and
you
can't
change
this
trust
because
it's
coming
down
route
nine.
You
know
tomorrow,
yeah
yeah,
so
you
know
we
we
moved
into
I
mean
Architects.
Drawings
are
always
called
plans,
but
the
practitioners
that
really
understood
the
power
of
this
realized
that
we
became
fortune
tellers
right,
not
just
people
who
plan,
but
people
who
know
oh
there's
a
clash
here
and
if
we
don't
solve
it
in
time,
you
guys
are
going
to
have
a
terrible
problem
in
a
few
months.
A
Yeah
no
I
I
actually
am
getting
into
GIS
and
like
geospatial
architecture,
design
in
general,
just
more
for
development,
you
know
of
of
larger
Community
spaces
and
I
I
see
a
lot
of
parallels
in
in
the
same
kinds
of
opportunities
that
I'm
trying
to
identify
and
explore
right.
You
know,
because
you
know
it's
really
difficult
to
do
effective
planning
in
development
spaces
in
general,
without
some
kind
of
visual
representation
that
can
help
you
to
suss
out
those
more
critical
questions.
This.
B
A
And
just
for
the
audience
sake,
GIS
is
Global
Imaging
system.
If
you
look
at
a
Google
map
you're
using
GIS,
that's
the
free
tool
that
we're
all
very
familiar
with
GPS
is
based
on
GIS
Technologies,
and
the
advancements
in
that
field
is
is
allowing
us
to
do
a
lot
of
what
Jason
is
talking
about
in
a
much
more
granular
way,
which
I
think
is
fascinating.
It
really
helps
us
to
save
resources
and
resolve
issues
way
before
we
start
construction
and.
B
A
B
A
A
B
A
B
That
we
can
simulate
building
growth
that
that
we
didn't
have
access
to
well,
there's
some
answers
out
there
that
I
think
we've
all
seen
with
the
the
building
tooth
potato
chip,
roofs
and
the
swoopy
this
and
the
glossy
that
and
that
that's
a
real,
impressive
and
important
part
of
the
architectural
discourse.
But.
B
B
A
A
B
A
A
B
A
Yeah-
and
it's
it's
it's-
you
know
this
makes
me
think
about
you
know
just
the
the
kind
of
Revolution
you
know
that
that
we're
really
taking
a
look
at
here.
You
know
like
when
we're
talking
about
changing
from
paper
to
Virtual
and
then
transitioning
from
that
virtual
space
back
into
the
physical.
You
know
that
that's
a
really
powerful
concept
to
to
be
able
to
it's
kind
of
a
learning
tool
right.
A
It's
it's
an
opportunity
to
just
have
continuous
learning
and
more
of
a
a
an
entrepreneurial
mindset
about
how
you're
building
things
which
I
really
love,
and
it
makes
me
think
about
this
gentleman
Jeremy
Rifkin,
who
talks
about
the
third
Industrial
Revolution
and
how
those
things
change
over
he,
you
know
it's
and
I
think
he's
he.
He
explores
the
idea
of
zero
marginal
cost
societies
where
you
know
he.
He
identifies
that
as
we've
transitioned
more
into
the
digital
space.
A
A
lot
of
Industries
have
had
to
re
reinvent
themselves,
because
they're,
seeing
their
marginal
costs
come
almost
to
zero
right.
You
know
we
look
at
Napster
and
the
music
industry
and,
like
you
know,
we're
not
selling
CDs
anymore,
you
can.
You
can
replicate
that
song
a
million
times
over
for
almost
no
money
right
right,
you're
kind
of
talking
about
a
similar
principle
with
your
idea
in
the
architecture
space
where
you
can,
you
can
literally
replicate
circumstances
for
different
modular
parts
of
a
home
for
almost
zero
marginal
cost
is.
Is
that
fair
to
say,
excuse.
A
B
Me
there's
places
we'd
like
we'd
like
to
benefit
from
this.
What
you're,
talking
about
with
marginal
costs,
I
think
rear
the
the
it
becomes
a
carrying
cost
in
the
design
industry,
because
risk
is
what
we're
always
abetting
the
way
that
the
design
industry
has
sort
of
codified
itself
in
the
last
hundred
years
is
to
identify
folks
that
have
passed
some
sort
of
professional
licensure.
A
B
A
B
B
Design
trades
are
trying
to
reduce
their
marginal
cost,
mainly
by
hedging
risk,
and
when
you
literally
have
a
crystal
ball
sitting
on
your
desk
yeah
right,
you
have
the
simulation
of
how
this
is
all
going
to
fold
out
you're
able
to
take
more
confident
and
specific
risks,
because
you
can
see
how
it's
going
to
play
out
in
many
ways,
and
you
have
almost
in
in
many
ways
a
unfair
advantage
on
the
in
the
playing
field.
Yeah,
because
the
contractor
is
trying
to
realize
something.
That's
never
been
seen
before
that
building.
A
B
A
Go
and
lower
the
marginal
costs
yeah.
We
can
have
more
informed
conversations
before
buildings
start
going
up
that
can
assuage
or
or
or
address
the
needs
within
a
community
more
effectively.
Right,
I
think
it's
a
tool
that
allows
us
to
bring
in
that
Community
Insight
in
a
much
more
direct
way
and
say
well.
This
is
what
the
community
is
saying
they
need.
This
is
what
people
are
saying
they're
concerned
about:
let's
put
it
in
the
model
and
see.
B
If
it
works,
this
is
great.
I
I
think
that
what
you're
saying
happens,
two
different
ways.
So
if
it's
1982
and
we're
thinking
about
putting
16
uses
units
of
housing
somewhere
well,
the
organization
that's
putting
up
that
money,
a
million
dollars
to
build
this
housing
is
pretty
much
going
to
want
to
hedge
as
much
risk
as
possible
by
reducing
the
number
of
stakeholders
right
well,
I
have
a
design
team
and
I
have
the
government
overview
and
that's
all
I.
B
Right
and
who
knows,
if
we
have
hearings
on
this,
what
the
community
will
ask
for
critique
or
Demand
right
now,
when
you
have
a
crystal
ball
sitting
here,
yeah,
you
say:
okay!
Well,
why
not
widen
out
the
stakeholders,
the
circle
of
stakeholders?
We
can
still
manage
with
what
we've
got
and
the
limited
resources
we
can
bring
to
this
to
entertain
more
stakeholder
viewpoints,
yeah
and
possibly
make
new
sources
of
revenue
new
sources
of
income.
You
know.
A
A
A
B
A
And
I
think
it
also
creates
a
level
of
transparency
that
is
often
considered
too
risky
when,
when,
when,
when
you've
invested
millions
of
dollars
into
a
development
project
and
and
you're
like
wow,
the
money
is
already
spent.
We
we've
we're
shovel
ready,
we're
starting
to
break
ground
right.
The
last
thing
you
want
is
to
is
is
is
to
have
issues
come
up
that
that
extend
that
timeline
and
but
at
the
same
time,
from
a
community
perspective
like
that's
often
when
communities
get
involved
right
exactly
right.
A
This
is
how
we
can
benefit
from
these
types
of
development
projects,
and
that
creates
to
me
Community
wealth
right
that
allows
not
the
stakeholders
not
just
to
participate
but
to
be
engaged
in
a
process
that
allows
them
to
to
build
wealth
in
their
community
and
and
and
be
more
active
participants
in
the
development
process
without,
like
you
know,
limiting
or
or
obstructing
that
those
plans
moving
forward.
Yeah.
A
B
This
Mentor
said
on
one
side
of
the
coin:
is
Trust
yeah.
The
other
side
of
the
coin
is
control,
they're,
really
the
same
thing
and
any
situation
you're
in.
If
you
don't
trust
the
situation,
you're
going
to
strive
for
more
control
over
the
situation,
yeah
and
if
you
do
trust
the
situation,
it's
the
circumstances
you're
going
to
be
able
to
release
control
since.
A
B
The
reason
I
bring
it
up
is
because
the
actual
wealth
within
a
community
I
believe
is
trust,
yeah
right
and
when
you
establish
as
a
developer,
a
track
record
of
being
someone
who
responds
on
the
third,
fourth
and
fifth
project
to
community
needs:
you're,
not
making
just
a
bank
of
housing
or
a
real
estate
portfolio
you're,
making
a
relationship.
It's
a
relationship
founded
on
trust.
A
B
A
Well
and
yeah,
I
I
couldn't
have
said
it
better.
Myself
trust
you
know
for
me,
I
that
translates
to
Social
Capital.
Exactly
that
translates
to
you
know.
Can
we
work
together
for
Mutual
benefit
nice
right
like
taking
that
right
down
to
that
question?
If
you
could
answer
yes
to
that
question,
then
there's
a
mod
there's
enough
Trust
to
start
developing
some
kind
of
culture
around
that
right
and
and
through
that
process.
Then,
when
we
get
into
things
like
you
know,
how
do
we
utilize
our
natural
capital
or
our
natural
resources?
A
You
know
in
industrial
ways
you
know
which
what
you're
talking
about
today
is
really
industrial.
Capital,
like
you
know
how?
How
can
we
use
that
trust
and
the
social
and
cultural
capital
we've
developed
to
inform
the
ways
that
we
build
out
our
industrial
Capital,
the
ways
that
we
use
the
resources
we
can
generate
to
really
facilitate
a
process
for
Community
wealth,
a
process
where
you
know
businesses,
non-profits
governments,
Community
citizens-
can
all
be
a
part
of
that
conversation
in
dialogue
to
build
something
that
they
all
care
about
right.
A
A
A
B
A
You
know,
building
connections
with
institutions
and
and-
and
you
know,
organizations
that
are
already
doing
this
kind
of
work
that
are
already
trying
to
facilitate
Workforce
Development
that
are
already
interested
in
trying
to
solve
the
housing
crisis
or
bring
the
cost
of
housing
down
so
that
it's
more
Equitable
for
a
diverse
set
of
populations
like
finding
ways
to
connect
with
those
organizations
and
those
institutions
as
a
business
owner
is,
is
important
and
I
think
that
that
creates
a
level
of
sustainability.
That
transcends
like
some
kind
of
like
your
standard
business
cycle.
A
That's
where
we
see
that
cyclical
process
of
of
you
know.
Some
people
would
call
this
a
virtuous
cycle
of
development.
Other
you
know,
I
I,
look
at
it
more
like
a
yeah
cyclical
wealth.
You
know,
because
you're
building
a
business
that
is
generating
New
Capital
right
in
a
way
that
other
organizations
can
participate
in
and
it's
that
Collective
collect
that
Collective
participation
that
creates
impact
and
shared
value
that
wasn't
there
before
brilliant
yeah.
B
Yeah
I,
we
we
agree
and
interpret
that
three
different
ways
in
our
own
formation
yeah.
The
first
is
that
you
know
we're
not
interested
in
being
a
died
in
the
wall,
kind
of
the
the
manufacturing
that
left
America's
Shores
in
the
70s
and
80s,
and
so
in
our
founding
documents.
We're
looking
at
an
ESOP
model
right
where
employee.
B
B
A
Know
you're
you're
there
for
the
Long
Haul
and
it's
it
becomes
a
community
institution.
It
becomes
something
that
the
community
can
utilize
to
reinvent
themselves,
if
necessary,
or
to
or
to
have
that
sustainable
growth
over
the
long
term
and
I
love
that,
and
it
really
speaks
to
the
fact
that
this
is
not
just
about
raising
money
and
and
putting
a
plant
on
the
on
the
map
right,
yeah,
it's
it's
really
about
creating
a
space
where
everyone
is
is
receiving
value
from.
B
The
operation
right
right,
so
so
it's
not
about
if
you
will
Financial
Capital
right
and
that
being
the
driver,
but
about
being
and
building
social
capital
and
about
being
in
building
cultural
capital,
in
that
this
is
a
learning
institution.
This
is
a
research
institute
at
some
level
like
how
can
we
improve
ourselves
right
and
then
how
can
the
relationships
we
build
with
the
trade
schools
with
the
Tradesmen
in
the
community
and
with
the
needs
that
our
communities
have
for
housing,
be
synthesized
into
one
focal
point
of
mutual
benefit?
Yeah.
A
Yeah
I
I
love
it
and
it.
You
know:
I
I,
think
that
we've
talked
a
little
bit
about
John,
Abrams
and
and
how
that's
kind
of
tied
into
this.
This
concept
that
that
you're,
reflecting
on
here
you
mentioned
to
me
in
in
earlier
conversations,
John
aguirovan's
quote
what
kind
of
Cathedral
are
we
building
right.
B
A
A
B
You
know
the
industrial
from
an
architectural
perspective,
the
Industrial
Revolution
explodes,
and
there
are
these
writers
in
the
1880s,
like
John
Ruskin,
considering
saying
you
know
what
what
does
this
you
know
tin
that
we
just
keep.
You
know
stamping
and
then
putting
up
on
our
ceilings
and
roofs
that
has
no
soul.
How
is
this
a
challenge
to
architecture
and
the
truth
is
I,
don't
think
it
was.
It
was
a
challenge
to
craft,
meaning
simply
if
we
Endeavor
in
manufacturing
Pursuits,
where
the
sames
had
widgets
are
made
over
and
over
again.
How
are
we
growing?
B
And
the
challenge
in
this
book
is
really
to
imbue
and
Infuse
in
an
ESOP
model,
the
decentralized
ability
for
each
stakeholder
in
the
company
to
seek
a
higher
level
of
craft
and
what
they're
doing
what
they
want
to
contribute
to
fascinating.
So
you
know
from
picking
a
project
and
saying
you
know:
do
you
want
to
work
on
this
project?
And
what
do
you
want
to
improve
about
what
we
did
about
it
last
time
and
then
how
can
we
Empower
you
to
make
those
improvements
right
and
how
can
we
help?
A
B
A
And
it
really
brings
that
dignity
and
respect
back
to
the
trades
that
we
were
talking
about
earlier,
really
kind
of.
It
makes
me
think
about
Mike
Rowe
who
did
Dirty
Jobs
there.
You
go
yeah
yeah,
you
know
he.
He
did
this
phenomenal
Ted
Talk,
where
you
know
he
he
talks
about
his
aha
moment.
You
know
he'd
been
doing
these
dirty
jobs
for,
like
you,
know,
200
episodes
and
he
finally
had
this
transition
of
thinking
about
you
know
how
do
we
actually
think
about
these
Dirty
Jobs?
B
I
I
totally
agree,
I,
think
I.
Think
the
the
the
middle
place
where
where
craftsmanship
is
lost,
is
in
a
product
yeah.
So
you
know
100
years
ago,
200
years
ago,
if
you
and
I
need
a
pair
of
shoes,
we
would
hire
a
Tradesman
or
a
Craftsman
yeah,
a
name
to
cobbler
right
that
was
his
or
her
profession
and
they
would
make
a
pair
of
shoes
and
we
would
judge
them
and
their
abilities
with
the
quality
of
our
shoes.
A
B
B
And
so
I'm
I'm,
very
sensitive
I
think
to
that
maintaining
and
highlighting
that
that
continuity
from
the
Tradesmen
through
and
and
in
our
case,
a
product,
a
kitchen,
bathroom
or
utility
closet,
all
the
way
to
the
end
user's
consumer
experience.
Because
if
that
isn't
telegraphed,
then
we
lose
our
identity
in
the
process.
And
in
doing
so
we
lose
pieces
or
spokes
of
the
wheel
of
our
own
Community
yeah.
A
A
A
B
Right
because
they
have
to
build
housing
for
their
jobs
and
their
communities.
The
sooner
we
address
the
intractable
seeming
issues
surrounding
the
housing
crisis,
I
think
the
more
we
can
concentrate
on
the
more
you
know,
rewarding
parts
of
our
community
experience,
so
we're
really
trying
to
tackle
the
housing
crisis.
A
You
know
I
speaking
of
the
housing
crisis
in
the
United
States
and
and
the
the
acute
housing
crisis
that
we're
dealing
with
here
in
Vermont.
There
is
a
lot
of
conversation
going
on
right
now
about
housing
in
Vermont
and
I.
Think
there's
a
lot
of
you
know
very
strongly
held
differing
opinions
regarding
housing
in
Vermont
and
how
development
occurs.
You
know
to
mention
some
of
the
more
poignant
topics
that
I've
been
listening
to
in
different
spaces.
Is
you
know
the
the
subject
of
act,
250
and
S
100
right?
B
Not
our
Hashim
and
Wendy
Harrison
as
they
try
and
sculpt
s
100
to
be
the
legislation
that
will
help
us
concentrate
housing
into
our
community
centers,
where
it
will
contribute
to
Transportation
networks
where
it
will
contribute
to
the
food
deserts
right,
ameliorate,
some
of
the
food
deserts
we
have
here
in
Vermont,
and
so
you
know
I'm
trying
to
offer
any
expertise
and
support.
I
can,
from
an
architectural
perspective,
to
help
us
Chase
and
attract
multi-family
housing
that
will
solve
the
missing
middle
and
the
low
income
housing
needs
in
our
community.
B
A
B
And
it's
all
multi-family
housing,
yeah
right,
it's
it's
1845.
everyone's
huddled
around
to
stay
warm
and
to
be
close
to
the
General
Store,
and
you
drive
around
a
lot
of
Brattleboro
today
and
it's
not
yeah
I.
Think
every
community
in
Vermont
has
an
experience
like
that
interesting
and
so
I'd
love
to
see
more
multi-family
housing
in
our
communities
to
help
folks
just
starting
a
family
and
just
starting
a
career
yeah.
A
A
If
I
may,
I
want
to
like
kind
of
push
that
a
little
bit
further
based
on
our
whole
conversations
today,
as
we
kind
of
wrap
up,
you
know
from
what
I
have
learned
to
understand
about
the
development
process
and
the
Innovations
you're
bringing
to
architectural
design
and
and
the
way
that
homes
are
built
it.
It
brings
me
back
to
that
fundamental
aspect
of
bringing
the
whole
Community
into
that
development
process.
Right
right.
B
A
And
I
feel,
like
you
know,
that
is
where
a
lot
of
the
conversations
break
down
there's
this
fundamental
concern
over
control
and
Trust
yeah
when
it
comes
to
new
developments
and
how
it
gets
played
out
in
our
communities
right.
But
if
we
could
create
a
culture
of
development
that
involves
the
whole
Community
I
think
there's
a
lot
more
space
for
trust.
A
There's
a
lot
more
opportunity
for
people
to
work
together
to
to
meet
all
of
our
needs,
because
there
are
critical
needs
that
I
think
that
are
present
in
Vermont,
as
well
as
many
other
places
in
the
United
States
right
now,
particularly
in
terms
of
housing
that
this
type
of
business
design.
This
type
of
architectural
innovation
really
helps
to
resolve,
and
that
goes
well
beyond.
You
know,
participating
in
in
local
politics,
which
I
very
much
advocate
for
but
I
I
think
this
is
a
a
practice
of
peace.
I.
B
Agree
completely
yeah
yeah.
We
we're
definitely
striving
to
create
a
view
of
the
Continuum
of
how
we
train
the
next
generation
of
Tradesmen
uh-huh,
you
know,
concentrate
you
know
not
only
their
labor,
but
our
intelligence
into
a
place
of
production,
yeah
and
then
responsibly,
use
that
concentration
to
build
less
expensive,
ideally
multi-family
housing
and
the
places
where
it's
welcome
in
our
communities.
A
B
Step
of
that
involves
community
and
involvement.
You
know
stakeholder
voices
and
you
know
tacit
a
group
approval
yeah,
and
it
would
be
a
pleasure
honor
and
in
many
ways
you
know
sign
of
success.
The
more
stakeholders
we
can
we
can
accommodate
and
and
the
more
housing
we
can
bring
to
our
communities.
Wonderful.
A
A
That's
brought
to
you
by
Community
wealth
development
coming
up
in
the
in
our
next
episode,
we're
we're
hoping
to
focus
more
on
natural
capital
and
and
looking
at
how
energy
is
a
part
of
our
communities
and
the
way
that
we
can
build
into
more
renewable
and
efficient
forms
of
energy
development,
and
we
hope
to
have
Jason
as
well
as
all
of
our
previous
guests,
back
on
the
show
to
have
a
collective
conversation
about
how
we
can
build
community
wealth
development
together
in
January.
No
in
June
in
June,
in
June.