City of Des Moines, Iowa 2023 City Council, 6 Mar 2023

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From YouTube: 3-6-23 City Council work session

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Des Moines City Council morning work session on Monday, March 6, 2023.

View the agenda: https://DSM.city/CouncilMeetings

A

I'd like to welcome everyone to our uh March 6 2023 work session. We have a few items on the agenda and I'll turn it over to the manager to introduce those items.

B

Thank you, mayor, Department, Tam and council members. This morning we have three presentations I, believe we get to start with NFC today, we've had Stephanie in in the past, and this is an opportunity to get an update from her on all the great work that NFC is doing.

C

Wait good morning, thank you all for coming and getting up so early to be here. My name is Stephanie Murphy and I'm.

C

The executive director of neighborhood, Finance, Corporation and I can't believe that next month will be my ninth year um that I've been back at NFC for about a total of 17 years, total that I've been there so um A lot's going on and a lot of it you know about, but I want to just sort of share with you so today, I want to give you an update on our lending, what we did in 2022 our new energy Advantage program that was recently funded by the city council.

C

So thank you, our NFC properties update, because that's a really busy line of business for us right now and then some other things that we're working on in the community throughout this. Please stop me. This should be a conversation hopefully, um and we can't because I really want to hear your feedback too on, where, where you think we can be most useful as we're trying to be strategic about our growth.

C

um Just as a refresher, our um we were started in 1991 out of a 1989 plan, Stockard ninger plan, looking at how to revitalize neighborhoods and that's been our mission. Since the beginning, we started out in five neighborhoods in Des Moines. We now lend in most of Des Moines parts of Urbandale West, Des Moines, talking to Clive parts of Windsor Heights, and we have an office in Cedar Rapids.

C

So a couple of just key points: just those Refreshers, we live in specific areas, but we don't have any income guidelines, so people of any income guidelines can take advantage of our program over time. We've added more benefits, I would say bells and whistles for people that are lower income, just understanding that it's harder for them to access financing and that they need additional subsidies, often to purchase a home uh Key to Our Success. Is your funding.

C

um I am lucky to serve on some national coalitions, and one thing that comes up constantly is how do you how you've done the same thing consistently without having stops and starts for over 30 years? And it's because we get that money that serves as the forgivable loan money that leverages everything else that we do.

C

um It's just really Key to Our Success. So thank you. That's um it's been amazing. uh We only do loans that do a renovation component. So that's how we're not competing with lenders. Most lenders aren't going to want to do a loan. That also includes we're now up to about an average of twenty six thousand dollars, Renovations per loan, so sort of we have our Niche right and that's helped.

C

Us I talked about the 10 000 forgivable loan and then how that also allows us to do our appraisals as off the improved value, and so with that subsidy and then being able to do the appraisals off the approved value. That's allowed us to do lending that other folks can't do um and a lot of times the 10 000 is so important, because a lot of the repairs are roofs basement walls. Things like that that you don't don't necessarily get an increased value for uh our team.

C

We have a great team, we're up to 25 team members.

C

um We've grown we've about doubled in size in the past nine years since I've been there and the neighborhoods that we work with and the people that come to that really have a commitment to the neighborhoods that they live in, making those improvements or moving into the neighborhoods if they're buying a house, some of our other key Partners besides the city is that we work with in the county.

C

One is neighborworks America, we became a neighborworks organization quite a few years ago, and that really is um important as far as the funding, as well as providing us with some expertise and National information. Just we just last week were awarded our neighborworks award for 426 thousand dollars. So that's money that we use to pay our staff as well as about half of it.

C

We use for our down payment assistance, so when we offer down payment assistance to our borrowers, that's money that we're getting through neighborworks, also we're able to sell loans to Fannie Mae, and so that provides US capital and then the local financial institutions please they're on our website. Thank them.

C

We just were able to raise 21.75 million dollars, which is I, think our largest funding pool ever for our phase 20 this year, and so those are the loans that we sell to the banks, they're the loans that maybe don't fit, the Fannie Mae secondary Market box and also all of our second mortgages, so that money will last us about three years and we'll go out and do it again.

C

um I already mentioned the forgivable loan money. How important that is the subsidy that we received and then again the residents.

D

C

D

Do it sorry, can I ask a question: please do um the when you sell off to Fannie Mae and to the smaller Banks? um How soon do you sell off loans either.

E

They're, like agreed to.

C

um The Fannie Mae ones we sell pretty quickly, usually not always um we we try to commit them during the loan process, but the ones that we sell to the banks. We try to hold for probably anywhere from you know up to six months and that's because then we can earn the full interest off of them before we sell them to the banks.

D

And it's not like a refinancing situation like the terms stay the same when you sell them off to Fannie Mae or to a bank. Oh.

C

Right yeah, they buying the loan that we did and we still service them. We think that's Key to Our Success, okay, we don't actually service them. Iowa Bankers does um but to have a local servicing.

C

So our delinquencies I didn't put that in here, but they've remained below or at two percent or ever since we sort of came out of the financial crisis, which is about half of what the national for a really good loan and it's about a third of what FHA is and it's because we most 99 of our home buyers receive homebuyer education and about 50 percent of the people that get a home improvement.

C

Loan do so like if people have like a blip on their credit, we compensate for that with home buyer education shout out to Home Inc and Evelyn K Davis, um but primarily that those are for homie. But we also do things with Evelyn K, Davis Center, um and so those are the things that we think that we're doing and then having those local surfacer that you know they call us on every loan before they would do foreclosure.

C

We make sure that, and we right now like we have we've had one foreclosure in the past three years, three or four years, and that's because the person died in the family, the house got earned and the family wasn't interested in dealing with it. So we're really proud of that. Does that answer all your questions? Yes, thank you sure, any others. Please stop um our lending area in green. We just added part of Merle Hay, neighborhood you'll, see where I put the arrow and then a little bit of Sheridan Gardens that got left off.

C

I have a email in my inbox from a neighbor requesting another neighborhood, so we may be back in another part of the area. We have talked over time when I've come here about, should we lend to just all of Des Moines but have those higher income areas just be people below 80 median income, always willing to consider that the issue is. Is that, though, last year, we didn't use all the forgivable loan money because our lending was down due to interest rates being higher uh most years, we use all of our forgivable loan money.

C

So we would just want to figure out how if there was a lot of additional lending, how we would fund that, but always a conversation, we're willing to have.

C

This is what we did last year just to sort of get to in Des Moines, so we did 143 households. Most people get more than one loan about eight million dollars in Lending and then an additional one point one in forgivable loans and for in total Renovations we're almost 3.7 million.

C

So it gives you um where we are and then just neighbor works is nice and they always give us every year sort of what our economic impact is on the neighbor on the areas that we serve, and so NFC and NFC properties are responsible for 112 jobs being created or maintained in the community and 19.8 million dollars, almost 20 million dollars of investment, because we're paying lots of contractors lots of small business people. That's who we work, that's who's, doing the work for our Borrowers and then those leverage are good too.

C

Just you know every dollar you're giving us we're leveraging almost seven other dollars and we are getting seeing that value increase. We started tracking that a few years ago, um so for every dollar of subsidy we're almost getting a dollar fifty of increased value which was sort of the idea right behind it. All any questions on those before I guess: I'll move to the next one.

F

C

So this is what we do by Ward. We would always like to do more in Ward. Four um I think part of the issue is: is that the area that we don't lend in and work for is probably the most stable neighborhood and a lot of the other areas are um High rental.

C

You know, I I live right next door to word for, and um so it's that. So that's a challenge and that's one thing we could overcome if we would go to do the whole city but focus on people below 80..

C

um Is that and then you'll see the big increase in Ward? One and part of that is because we had like always gone in and out of Beaverdale in and out of um some neighborhoods, and we just added them for on a permanent basis back in 2019, and so that's why you see that increase.

D

You um have this breakdown by uh ZIP code. We can.

C

Get it by ZIP code, okay, yeah, give that to you. We have a data person now, so that's the other thing is to say: if you're going to a neighborhood meeting on our website under about us is what we've done. Historically, you know since 1990 in each neighborhood, but if you want like what we've done in the past year or two or something like that to share um you're our best marketer.

C

So when you go to Neighborhood meetings, please remind people that were out there and I mean we try to get to at least every neighborhood once a year, but the more people are reminded and, as you know, different people are there every time. But if you ever want any data, please just give me a day's notice. We can be happy to pull that for you.

G

The Easter lake neighborhood to Beaverdale I mean do you don't service Easter lake neighborhood because of the income is that is that what the deal is.

C

I think it's because the it you know when we started it's the age of the housing stock, that it was a newer housing stock. Not all of it is not all of it right yeah! So always you know if there's areas that you think we should be in in your neighborhood, complete in your ward. Please point it out to us um our one.

C

Our one thing that we're always having to think about from federal funding is because we're a cdfi is that 60 of our lending has to be to lower moderate income people or or lower moderate income census tracts. So if we get too much outside of low mod census tracts, we can get into trouble, but right now we're not in a problem and they're, actually changing all of that in the next couple of months. So we're sort of waiting and seeing what they're going to do.

A

If you specify the income level, would that make it better for you as far as what those rules are right, so you could specify anything under.

C

A

C

And I've sort of thought about that, like with ion coming on we're partnering with them on some things, you know like do we say or if they're working with ion and they can need more money than I can provide. Do we provide it so open to those discussions and I can what's.

G

The dollar amount I know every for people walking at home to 80 80 percent.

C

For a family, I wrote it down actually family of four, it's 78, 8, 70. and since and then it's on our website. If you look like under Home Improvement programs there's a chart that shows what it is. Thank you yeah.

E

D

Would be interested to see um the breakdown not just by a zip code, but also.

E

By the census tract um and like how much you're doing in low mod versus outside of Oman and I guess, I have.

D

Maybe a hard question: I don't know, but like I'm, just kind of wondering how this breakdown or how any of these other breakdowns.

E

Kind of like speak to the um mission of.

D

E

D

Like is the mission more of keeping people in housing or getting people into housing um in uh you know wealthier areas, or is it trying to get more people in housing in those areas that there's High rental or you know? How does that break down so.

C

Are when we first started our mission was to improve neighborhoods, you know neighborhood, revitalization, fully and so no income. There was really no different in how the program worked depending on your income and over time, we've increased the subsidy for lower income. Folks, so I can tell you that 80 of our lending is to either low mod income person or low mod census track. Eighty percent, eighty percent.

C

um We track that on a monthly basis. So um so that's um that I would say over time I mean a lot is going on and you know we can't just stay siled in our mission. So a lot has changed. I would say it's almost harder like there are more programs now like with ion and Polk County, just increased there um home repair program, I'm going to later on talk about a new program that we're doing with other.

C

So there's more programs that people below 80 don't have to borrow money to get their house fixed, which is great right. That's not, but so, as a result, we may naturally start loaning to higher income people, but still be in Loma census track. Does that make sense? Just because there's no need we're not going to make someone borrow money if they could get the same thing done with ion or with Polk, County or with habitat, and not have that loan. So that's one reality. The other thing, though, that we do is like the majority.

C

We do home buyer. We do down payment assistance now, all, but one of our borrowers last year was eligible for down payment assistance that bought a home through us. So we're really finding um that we are the difference for people getting into homes or not, which we didn't used to be like we used to be. It was more the home that the home couldn't get financed because it had so many repairs.

C

So people came to us, but now we're seeing both the home and borrowers needing the subsidy that we're providing and we're able to do that because we're a cdfi and we're part of neighborworks. So we can access that capital and that's really what's changed over time for us, because when we first started we didn't have access to any any of that other Capital.

C

We had money from Fannie Mae and the money from the banks and the money from the city and county that was it, but we actually fund almost a third of the loans that we do with our own capital.

D

So so you're saying that shifted from just improving the housing stock to getting people in homes right.

C

And getting into people into home I mean my passion is, and you know, I get passionate depends when I'm up here, but my passion is getting people into home that then they can afford long term. I worked on the Foreclosure crisis. You know I I, don't want to see that again and if people buy a house and they're said you know, somebody says well, you can go. Do the roof in two years when it needs to be done.

C

Well, if you're, a low-income person you're not going to have fifteen thousand dollars saved to put a new roof on in two years and you're not going to have the equity to do it. So if they can come to us and get the roof our loan, you earn Equity much quicker. I! Think that's another reason we don't see foreclosures. So it's a combination.

C

E

C

E

C

Appreciate that great thanks for asking, because I could talk about this all day, it's probably some of you know so. I'll move on now, while I'm really hearing huge thanks to um Malcolm and I forgot to say thank you to Linda and Chris that serve on our board as well. But Malcolm really got this. To the end, is the energy Advantage, Program and Josh helped actually on the committee, where we sort of designed it and set it up before we even knew there was money for it when we were just like what would we do?

C

We do a lot of those discussions at NFC and that's sort of why I'm asking your for your input. What would we do if we had money- and one thing we said is we saw that our homeowners and home buyers had a desire to do energy improvements, but they couldn't afford to do those additional things if it was part of a repayable loan.

F

C

um Thank you for the 1.5 million. We got a total of two million dollars from local governments to do this um throughout our lending area. We're still waiting on Western white, but um what's going to happen, is it's tied to an NFC loan?

C

It's ten thousand dollars additional money. It's a deferred loan, so we'll recycle it and we'll go out and apply for more money to once we get it started to do that. We're hoping through the inflation reduction act, there'll, be money available and we'll do an energy audit figure out and we're working with the Energy Group I. Don't know if anyone knows I'm a local business they're going to do the energy audit figure out what things will bring the most save that household the most money.

C

What improvements that can be made and those were the things that will be prioritized with ten thousand people- can do additional stuff and borrow that into their loan and use the forgivable loan, but the 10 000 will say: first you have to do the priority. So if installation is the first thing, then that's what we'll do now.

C

The really exciting thing is Mid-American came in and said that they will pay for the energy audit and they'll do the weatherization and insulation for all of our borrowers below 80 median income, so that will not be added on to those. So all those folks will able to be able to do just additional things. So we're really excited about that, um and that was and then, when it's all done, we'll do another audit lower doe test.

C

The interview group will I use the we Loosely and figure out um what kind of money and then we're also going to track the savings that they experience in that year. So we're really excited any questions about that.

F

C

H

Yet have you received your upper dollars.

C

We haven't received the money, but that's: okay. We haven't closed any loans, so we'll get money. A couple of emails, yeah yeah. We haven't gotten the actual check, but that's okay, we're we have taken applications.

A

If you've taken applications and if you've had a good uh response to it, yeah.

C

C

Deferred app so that we hit the right spot. This is really what we've, what I've learned- and you probably have a lot more experience- is that people have a desire to do it, but they don't feel like they can increase their mortgage payment without having that Energy savings first. So super excited. Thank you all for all the work that that took to get that across the finish line, and we hope that that's an ongoing program.

C

And there is a flyer on our website, so if you're going to a neighborhood meeting or if you wanted me to drop some off or anything, we have them at the office, we can get them to you.

C

Nfc properties you've been to some of our open houses. This year we did three properties with invest: DSM, they've all sold and closed I believe so yay for that um we are doing four additional homes with them this year, I have the addresses on there um and then thank you tonight on Council is the next four properties, but I really appreciate that the city invested in getting staff to make to make the process work for the tax sale properties. These are some properties we've worked on for a while, and we're really excited to have them.

C

um You know improved neighborhoods to get new homes on lots. A couple of the lots that we got through the city tax sale process are in the invest, DSM area, so we'll probably partner with them. So we'll probably end up doing um six houses this year with.

F

C

What they, some of them might get done next year, just for budgeting and all of that, but yeah we're really excited any questions about that we did. We did have a couple of slow years just because of the pandemic and sort of adjusting our plans with the new um building codes and all that okay, one a couple of things so tomorrow at the Polk County Supervisors meeting two programs are gonna, get um voted on as far as I know, they're on the agenda, um one is a Polk County down payment program.

C

So if you know anyone that's below 80 median income, that's thinking about buying a house in Polk County, let's say the city of Des Moines. Now is the time um thirty thousand dollars in down payment assistance will be available uh for people below 80 percent. It will be a deferred loan, so they'll have to pay it back at some point and we'll do some strong communication around that and it will not be just through neighborhood Finance. It will be through other lenders as well.

C

We haven't identified those yet um the other program that I don't think I put on here is that we've been working on and this I'll give a lot of credit to um Lance Henning at Habitat for Humanity. He and I worked on this, along with all the other partners. Rebuilding Together Polk County ion um to figure out those people that come to one of our organizations and even when we all try to put in the money, we have we're still thirty thousand dollars short. It used to be 25.

C

Now it's 30, it's seen Short and we're finding that those people have no other housing option. If we don't get their houses, their house fixed. Usually it's been in-house their family for a long time. They don't have a mortgage um and for whatever reason it's just fallen into disrepair, so we're going to have that 30, 000 Gap. Now um that we will work together with all the organizations we're all going to have weekly calls and make that happen. So we're super excited.

C

um So if you're out there and you're talking to constituents that just have maybe gone to one of ours before and Quinn get help, because we couldn't pull enough money together, send them back because, hopefully in the next month or so, we'll have that all set up and NFC I, don't think we'll do that, many of them, because most of our borrowers don't fit into that. But we'll do some, but we are going to be closing the Deferred loan for it.

C

I already mentioned that we raised the 21.75 million. That was a big, exciting moment for us. Hopefully, you all know that we launched journey to home ownership a year ago. It's a down payment program, specific for African-Americans sort of looking at what they want. Economy report was calling us out to do in the housing space and it's combined with well, we hired a loan originator, that's specifically working on it and we're also doing we do classes so they're, not home by our education. They're more, like you know what is homeless, home ownership.

C

Look for me and my family. We have one great story of a father and son: no one in their home, no one in their family had ever owned a home. They bought a house on the same street using our program. They just didn't even have this dream and they were able to make it happen, working with Evelyn, K Davis. So we've really seen some transformational things happen and looking forward to more.

F

C

Do hope to expand that to other minorities. We have a grant that we should hear about in the next few weeks and if we get back we'll be expanding it. On a personal note, I was and I'm so thankful to the board for supporting it. I am in achieving Excellence, it's a 20-month leadership challenge. I just got back from Harvard last week so and my brain is full with ideas, and one of those is the challenge that I'm going to be working on and I really am looking for.

C

Your input is what projects aren't getting done, because there's not enough Capital what affordable housing? We have some loans on some of the tax credit projects that were done during the financial crisis.

C

um You know what community things aren't getting funded and if we could raise the capital as a cdfi, um what could what's possible so I'm interested in hearing I'm going to be out interviewing people, and if you want to be one of those folks, let me know to get those ideas and see if that's a space that we need to move into, to move the needle for our community and then we're moving I think everybody may know that, but we bought a property at 4908, Franklin, we'll be moving in in May um and we've sold art building, another non-profits moving into it and um we we outgrew our space and so I.

C

Guess that's a thing and we're excited to be moving. That's all I have what questions do you have for.

A

Me does anyone have any other questions, I.

H

I, don't have a question but I have a comment and taking my my city council had off my real estate hat I've spent 22 years working with NFC, because my business was built basically in Wards 2 in Ward 4 I mean that's, that's where I did 95 of all of my business throughout the years. So I've worked with NFC for many many years and Stephanie you are. We are so lucky to have you as the executive director, because you're so good at what you do and your staff is just amazing.

H

So thank you and just continue to do what you're doing, but you've done a great job. Well,.

C

Thank you. Thank you. I'll. Take that back. We do have a great team.

A

I just would like to, on behalf of the city, thank you and your team for what you're doing for our city to improve lives. So with that, it's.

I

Great to see your staff uh at um cabling at various events and there's always activity around your table too, so good.

C

I

C

We're really fortunate to have good support from the neighborhoods, and we love that part. It's a long couple of years for all of us to not be able to do that. So thank you. Do you want me to do anything with this or just leave it? Thank you very much for everything and I'll see you back tonight. Okay,.

A

To go to next next, if you want to introduce this next item.

B

You bet, okay, the next two items are an opportunity to look at possible new policies for the city. uh The donation bins is uh uh a topic that we'll start with and then we'll we'll hit on the tree hazardous tree topic, so I think Eric. You get to start us off on the donation, bins.

J

Good morning, mayor Pro, tem, members of the city council, Eric Lundy city of Des, Moines, zoning enforcement officer uh start out with this, is something we've been probably dealing with on the enforcement end for about. Oh, since early summer, um we started seeing bins pop up, so I'll get into that a little more in depth. um So this year we've seen these placed around the city in every Ward, we've seen them at schools, churches and business locations. All you know they just started popping up um the ones that we're dealing with right.

J

At the moment, their focus is to divert Fabric and textile waste out. You know out of the waste stream um they they are able to treat that as a as a commodity. That is a recycled material that gets reused.

J

um The current vendor that we've been encountering is green bins of Iowa, but they have the the doing business ads on their boxes, uh the clothes bin and they're bright green. If you haven't seen them around the city, um this company provides compensation to the owners in the form of cash or monetary compensation.

J

Certainly, commercial business owners are just seeing that as a revenue, Source I, believe the schools that are involved have used it for uh passing on to their parent-teacher organizations for for as a funding source. So it is a that's been kind of the the conflict. I think here is that some of the schools are actually a beneficiary of.

J

What's going on, so they've been taking advantage of it currently, the way these bins are treated from a zoning perspective, they're being looked at as an accessory component to wherever they're located they're, not the primary use of the property they're just treated as an accessory component, their activity is, is subordinate to the overall activity going on on the property, um so we do treat that as an accessory component.

J

uh The physical placement, however, is looked at differently. We, this is a recycled material, just like your recycling bins and your your Solid Waste uh dumpsters. So right now the ordinance treats these just like we would one of those and it should be an enclosure. It should be out of the front setback generally in the rear setback, but sometimes depending on the situation, it could be in the side setback we would allow them inside. So if they wanted to keep these inside a building, we wouldn't look at them at all.

J

um The opaque enclosure could be a masonry enclosure per our code or there's an alternate design that they would have the option to look at.

J

I did take a look around I didn't get a great response from other Metro cities, but I did get a few. I also got Marion, but I didn't include that on here. um Pleasant Hill has no accommodation for these whatsoever. They just tell them they have to take them away. uh Urbandale looks at him more as an accessory structure, which has certain requirements. They do not allow them in front yards um and they aren't allowed to take away the required parking, and so that's primarily the the issue there. From their perspective the West Des Moines.

J

uh They treat them pretty much the same way as we do under their their codes, so they treat them like they're. A solid waste refuse container and treat them is set.

J

uh We've been like I said: we've been probably dealing with them, maybe up to eight months now, but for the most part, six months um since mid-summer, basically, we've had four locations at the schools. I think they might be in other locations that we haven't enforced on um and haven't gotten complaints or seen these things, but they may be on other schools. There is one that we've enforced on at a church and then six that were on Commercial properties. We've got at the time when I put this together.

J

There was four of them that were in compliance on Commercial properties where they had been removed. Now commercial properties are used to having to deal with enforcement, sometimes so I think they respond a lot quicker than a church or a school might in terms of getting a notice of violation.

J

Here's I'm going to go through a few locations just to see how they're being placed this one's at the Windsor Elementary School on University Avenue. This is actually on the side street, not on University, where there's a bus uh drop, it's right up against the right away, I believe it's still on their property.

J

This is on Southwest, 9th at a gas station at Virginia and Southwest 9th. As you can see it's in the area, that's between the curb and the sidewalk, where we normally want to treat that as a landscape perimeter, and you can also see that it's also attracting a little bit of that's gone though yeah the whole I think the whole containers. That's gone in this case: yeah yeah. Some of these are pictures from you can see the date on the pictures.

J

Some of those worked quite a while ago, this one's up at 3513 Amherst at St, John's um again in the in that perimeter, from the parking lot between the sidewalk and the parking lot.

J

And then this is down on McCombs Middle School at 201, County, Line, Road I think that's probably about 20 to 25 feet back from the front property line that sign. There is right on the property line.

J

And then this is probably the one that's the most problematic. In my opinion, um this is at Edmonds. This is that's actually hanging into the right away over the bus lane, but it's also the public sidewalk through there along uh Center, Street or Crocker I'm. Sorry, um as it kind of bends around from 15th um Edmonds also has another one in their front side along 15., so they actually have two place around their site.

J

So the compliance strategies currently that have been presented to the violators have been you know. First option is just to remove them and take away the issue, um the other option that's been provided to them, and this has been through discussions with the operator. um I think Brad, Burnett and Mark.

J

uh Olson are the two individuals that are represent that company and we've had conversations that they're aware of the process they could follow in order to get design alternative relief through chapter 135 um and then the other one I think that they're sort of waiting on at this point is whether the city council would want to accommodate them through an enabling process of allowing them through the code or through a change to the code.

G

And Eric this is for-profit company, so.

J

Yeah he they don't necessarily have to be for profit. The one we happen to be dealing with is a company that does look at them to make money now. They're right, I, think they're partnering with non-profit or charitable organizations, or you know, schools or churches. That's.

G

Not to do this, but that's not how he explained it to me.

J

Well, I mean I'm just saying that they're, that's how they explain. That's where they're putting them in in some of the some of the money that they pay. The owners goes to those type of entities like the school or the PTA or whatever, but yeah they give they give yeah yeah.

G

They're, given a.

J

Portion of it yeah but they're there to make money, no doubt about it. Okay, but I should point out that they wouldn't necessarily if this was something that the city allowed, we would treat them. You know the same as a non-profit if they were strictly doing it for donations,.

D

Can we clarify how is the business model as far as you know, different than other Recycling business models, because other recycling also sells commodity like the recycling that we do as the city yeah.

J

I mean I, don't know if we really have it I mean right now. If you wanted to do something like this, you would take it somewhere and have it. You know.

D

Or I mean you put it out on your on your curve on your curve.

J

Yeah yeah yeah, like in the recycling yeah right now. The city's recycling program does not accept textiles. Exactly yes,.

D

Yes, but but what I'm saying is that the city's recycling program is we put our? We put our recyclables out on the on the car when they get picked up and then they get sold for commodity in the same way? Is that correct, yeah.

J

Very similar, yes, okay, I, don't I, don't know the the nuances of the clothespins. You know who they're sending their material to or where it's getting handled. um I didn't look into it that deep, but they're, sending it to they're, collecting it and they're getting paid like 20 cents on the pound. For example, two I.

D

Just didn't know if there was a significant difference between how recycling Works in general well.

B

I want to make sure you understand it like the bins personal bins that go out. That's a temporary allowance. Yes,.

D

No I understand the difference between the the permanent residential, yes I, just I just met selling out the commodity is what we do is recycling in general.

J

Yeah now, there's certainly examples around the country of bins that collect and use it as material or the items are sold resold for resale or Consignment. So that's enough.

J

You know another example of how these are used um in terms of amending the regulations um done some looking around the country as to where these are um allowed and regulated there. You can see the list of jurisdictions, it's pretty much spread all over the country, most of them treat them as business licenses. So, rather than a kind of a zoning use, they're looked at as a business use, I would say.

J

Probably the closest thing we would have would be our transient Merchant licensing here a little bit different in that these are look to be permanently placed on the site where, as our Transit Merchants move our move uh every day, but they would be similarly reviewed and regulated I think if we were to go through that process, um you can look at the list. There places they issue them through either their city clerk or with an administrative review process. They limit things such as size, number location placement.

J

um They put limitations on the signage that are on them or and will require certain information to be put on them for the benefit of the public. In case there's problems, they prohibit hazardous material, other items that don't fit into the containers. To avoid the accumulation of junk and debris and other items, they require uh maintenance on these so that they are kept painted nicely or they don't rust in place basically and start becoming another problem.

J

um They provide uh examples, there's certain communities that require them to sign off and say the city can step in and do in mitigation and enforcement. uh You know at the worst case, come in and remove it like a cleanup like we have for our junk and debris and then a lot of them also require proof of bonding and liability for I. Don't know if that completely indemnifies the city but I think it's an attempt to at least reduce the city's risk before.

D

We move on um the first bullet point under the um standards the permitting and permitting with city clerk. Would that be a separate permit for each bin, or does that kind of go with the next one The Limited size number? Is that like it would be a permit for the one business and then well.

J

I think the review has to review of them at each location, because every location is going to be unique, so I would normally like the transient. Merchant premise permit is by the location, okay and so be a separate fee for each location.

G

Have they moved the one off the the right away yet? Is it still on the sidewalk.

J

I, don't know right now our enforcement's on hold so but.

D

That would be something we could regulate.

J

Yeah and I I. They know that they're aware that that's an issue and that that's not allowed.

H

But they haven't moved it yet.

J

I, don't think that they have, but that's not that's and.

D

I just wanted to my understanding will have a conversation with the uh with Brad Burnett um was that there is communication on the bin, like there's a phone number on the bin. That goes like directly to him. That would Berkeley know that they get clean up within 24 hours, that they have like things on the bins that tell them when they're full, so they shouldn't overflow. Things like that.

D

So, like all of these standards that are listed here, should line up with how they're doing business and if it wouldn't, if it isn't lining up with how they're saying they're doing business, then we would be able it would be. The standards that they're supposedly already held to.

J

Yes, I think some of the things that might not line up with them is where the where they're placed on the site, because I think they depend on the visibility quite a bit to being close to the street, and we wouldn't probably I, wouldn't recommend and I would think that most communities that that regulate these don't allow them to be right up in the front of the property. Can.

D

You clarify that a little bit more because I don't see that on here all.

J

Right, yeah placement look safe location placement yeah because.

D

It wouldn't be the same sorry, it wouldn't be the same as what we're saying right now, whereas they need to be inside or inside, of an enclosure or on the side of the back.

J

That would yeah. That would be the something that.

F

You're, considering today, right.

J

uh For the direction that you would give is, you know, is this something we want to accommodate and treat differently again and before we're done here, I'll kind of speak to the staff's view of this. At this point, you talk about.

D

The safety component, because that's something I'm.

J

Curious about safety like not in in the dry vials or in walkways yeah yeah.

A

Anyone else Carl, yes,.

I

So the um Eric, um so we don't have business licenses in general right. The city does not not.

J

I mean not really I mean we are. Our system calls them business licenses, but um we have like I said the closest thing that would probably align with this would be the transit Merchant premise.

I

Yeah so another time it might be interesting just to talk about. uh If that's an area that we should have I know it came up Scott. What was.

F

That Court.

I

Avenue yeah, um just that was.

G

I

There must be a reason, historically that we haven't done this, but it might be time to revisit that just in in Broad Strokes. If that'd be a good thing to.

B

We can have a separate conversation on that.

H

I have one comment.

A

H

My comment is: is I just hope that everybody's aware that when you, this is considered waste? But when you take those same items to many of our non-profits like Joppa Salvation Army, they also bundle those regs up and sell them so that that money is going directly back to a non-profit and not to a middle man. Who is there to make profit? So you can accomplish the same thing: to keep them out of the out of the landfill by donating them to one of our non-profits who bundles and sells those wrecks.

J

That's correct and my understanding is that, like the Goodwills and salvation armies and davs anything they can't put out on the shelf for sale yep, they.

H

J

Another way to make revenue from it: yes, yes,.

H

I know Joppa does that and they just resell it. So we know that that it's going directly back to the non-profits.

J

So getting into some other considerations that the city council may want to take into account here, um history on the legal side of things, there's been legal challenges, uh that's resulted in regulation. You know a lot of places tried to discern between non-profit and for-profit that really didn't pass with the courts.

J

um The courts really treat this as a form of protected speech, soliciting of charitable donations. So um they didn't believe that we could. We could really distinguish between non-profit or for-profit as a as a regulating entity.

J

um They are seeking well, it could be seeking charitable this particular one may not be directly no, but they they could they're. We really can't divide it up that way. Let's put it that way right, but that yeah there may be people that.

K

J

Donations for charitable.

K

That precedent isn't at issue here.

J

Hey I, don't want to I, don't want to argue that one way or the other just something that the council might consider, because if you're opening this up, this could involve other entities that do want to seek charitable donations, um it's also legally vulnerable to single out or uh allow it only for schools or churches.

J

um Historically, uh this came up probably close to 20 years ago now, with our plan and Zoning commission, when we were at that time, we were looking at a zoning update and we were going through this process as well of considering how we want to treat donation bins, which were a little bit problematic at that time, and you know that's where we land we landed where we are today, basically because of some of the problems that we were experiencing with dumping or neglect of their condition um by the by either the property owner or The Operators.

J

um Another issue is that donors might misinterpret. You know the way that these are um handled again. That was that came up this. This one we're dealing with is a for-profit.

J

um The the donated items are not being put out for resale um rather they're getting the owners are getting a cash payment or a monetary payment for the volume of their uh what they take in on. On that particular location, um the incentives might drive Property Owners uh to solicit other material from other locations to bring to this site. So not only would they be collecting voluntarily to that location, but they might be bringing other material from other places too, to get the credit so to speak.

D

Can you clarify that sorry so.

J

So one of the principles I spoke with hinted at some of the parents are very gung-ho and they would go out and go to these places, maybe like Joppa or some of some of the other people that get donations and take things off their hands. They didn't want to deal with just to get the volume, because the the monetary uh compensation they get is based on the volume that they collect. So um the schools and churches specifically are in most part generally in proximity to residential neighborhoods.

J

So some of the impacts that these might be generating are right at locations that are in residential neighborhoods and then uh one of the things if we did start permitting that's going to drive up some of the staff time to process and certainly with them. We also then need to enforce on people that aren't following the process and getting permits.

J

So that's going to generate a little a little additional staff time. Then. The last thing here is kind of a something to take into consideration.

J

If, if we want to really make this a high bar one of the ways we could handle, this is through the zoning side and make this a conditional use in a location in certain locations if we want to narrow it down, but that process is going to be a little bit more onerous because it requires them to go in front of plan and Zoning or I'm sorry board of adjustment to get approval potentially planning zoning if they also have to rezone the property which has a fee to it.

J

So um some of these School organizations may not be getting that much money that it's worth it. So um something else to consider here. These are kind of the three overall options to really think about here.

J

um We could continue to proceed under the current ordinances and processes which allows them also to seek design Alternatives in certain in whatever location.

J

If they're not meeting the standards in chapter 135, they can amend the code to allow a business license or permitting through the development regulations um and that we've talked about that and what those standards might be or I think we would have to get more into depth in in reviewing what we actually want to approve and what's what's what we would want to enforce through that process um and then the other one is the the higher bar consider this as a either administrative or formal hearing process for approval. So awesome.

G

Yes, the the last point there is that, where you're, considering the board of so we already kind of have a process in place, somebody wants to place something like this, where you would go to the board of adjustment or no yeah.

J

This would be. This would be a kind of a different branch of that. If you, if you wanted to go that route and specifically enable them as a conditional use, then it would go to board of adjustment right now there they look at the plan and Zoning if they were seeking design. Alternative would look at this as like another dumpster like an inward treat it as such, so where it would have to be covered, which it'd have to be yeah. It'd have to be in a.

G

Beach enclosure.

J

And out of the setbacks? Yes, yeah, the.

G

Visibility correct these things that schools or churches.

J

So I'm going to ask if there's any questions and then I'll ask then I think for the input of the council again from an if you're, just looking at it from peer enforcement perspective, it's very challenging at the moment, given the resources that we have so um I would say that, right now our preference is to kind of manage it. The way we currently manage it, but um certainly there's other factors that might play into what the council's wishes now.

K

J

K

Enforcement's an issue either way: yes,.

J

And without without standards, however, they're just being arbitrarily placed you know, yeah, and maybe they would learn over time. Certain operators um I can tell you that right now we only have the one, but certainly with one comes others over time. So.

D

It would be easier, sorry, that's good. It would be easier to enforce with standards in place. Therefore, the operator would learn the standards just abide by the standards generally and then enforcement would be if they broke those.

J

Things so enforcement would be more. We would be able to point towards certain standards, yes and then the other thing is it's more predictable on the operator's part of the owner's part. If.

H

This were treated just like another refuse container I have a business and I build an enclosure and I. Just put it in there. Just like a dumpster is that okay.

J

It is yeah, it is yeah, okay, so if they want, if schools wanted to have an area in the back and they had it enclosed- and you know the students and teachers and parents wanted to come and drop their stuff there, they could do that yeah and.

B

What kind of signage could that allow on them?.

J

um I think if it was not visible from the street- and it was just there on- you know, for the benefit of people that know where the the container sits, that that would not be a problem, especially if it's in the enclosure. So.

D

I'm trying to get clarity on this seeking charitable donations difference because I guess we said that there's legal challenges trying to discern between non-profit and for-profit, but only seeking terrible donations is seen as the court that's protected speech. So if it's not seeking charitable donations, are we able to regulate, saying seeking charitable donations is fine. However, if you're not seeking travel donations and it's not.

J

I think the point of that was really just to caution the council that in the past, in other jurisdictions that have decided they wanted this delineate between non-profit and for-profit entities. You know allowing one or the other um that has been legally problematic. I think that the message to take from that is. We need to treat these the same, whether they're from a for-profit situation or a non-profit situation.

K

We could classify the use right, so we could carve out and deal with simply textile recycling bin like a very specific narrow use right. So.

J

K

So we could narrowly tailor this so that we weren't going to just see random bin. This would be.

J

You could, and that would be the change or amending the regulations, whether that be through a business license or permit like a like a site permit or through the through the you know, the bigger bar, which would be a zoning type process. Yeah and.

K

I guess my take particularly uh I see multiple benefits to allowing textile, specific bins, I mean I, think it diverts from the waste stream I. Don't think we have good recycling options. Yes, there are some recycling options, but but I think this provides uh again an option that doesn't exist. It diverts from the waste stream and if we can narrowly tailor it in a way that is, is enforceable. I'd like to see us provide some some guidance along those.

J

And if we do get into that, I think we would definitely want to involve legal to say: are we we didn't do a huge amount of legal research, but if we're going to go a certain direction, I think we do want to make sure that we're legally in good standing as well through that process. Obviously,.

G

I I seen the one on Southwest 9th quite a bit and that wasn't the only picture that had garbage and stuff next to the side of it and it set sat on the uh on the Landscaping portion of it is where they sat it at so I mean that can't be allowed. I mean I'm glad that they've removed most of the remote most of them other than the schools.

G

um You know, I I guess I would I'd like to take a look at maybe either a board of adjustment, type deal or or something to and I, don't even know if we can limit it to schools in in the churches or something like that I. But if we're going to put them everywhere, yeah I'm I'm not going to be in favor of that. That's gonna, that's not gonna, that that doesn't look like something.

G

I want to be proud of in our city, because I know what's going to happen because I've watched it happen already and we have a picture of it. So yeah.

J

And that was to be honest with you. That was the only time I've been in the city nearly 30 years that has been the issue is the yeah. The neglect and the the lack of Maintenance um and I know.

G

He said he'll be out within 24 hours, but the 24 hours of the majority of these are sitting right in the neighborhood and the neighbors are looking at it and and.

J

This is one entity, that's maybe more responsible right, we're gonna open up yeah. If we open it up it. Could you know we get the Spectrum like we do with everything else that we we regulate so.

D

I think that I would like to see regulation specifying because, like I agree like we don't want one where we had that picture of it just being the Landscaping but regulating like where they can be, how many can be in a certain location, things like that, but like regulating, so we have these standards that we're able to hold them to that. We have like a blueprint of like these. Are the standards we're going to hold you to um I?

D

Think that you know if we have a responsible operator now, it shouldn't be a problem, and if, if we have operators in the future, then we are able to hold them to the standard that we're holding everybody else to so I would be in favor of getting specific regulation on how these can be used and going to legal and figuring out how specific we can be about that.

A

Seems like we have my varying opinions on this, so my.

H

Thought is: is I'm not going to be supportive of an ordinance if it wants to be treated just like a refuge container? You put it back in a closure and you handle it. Just like you do your your dumpster at the stores, but I would not be supportive of anything else. People get confused. They think that it's a recycling bin. They think they can put their things in there and it goes to a good cause.

H

um It's a for-profit company just go donate to your local charity, and you know DV will come and pick it up from your driveway. You don't even have to take it anymore, so I'm not going to be supportive of anything I, don't think they look good, they're, nice and shiny and new right now. But what are they going to look like five years from now? And there are I I pass one regularly in my neighborhood and it needs to be gone. It's just like having a dumpster out on the front yard, yeah.

F

H

That's my book.

I

I guess a deeper dive from your staff on this. You know: I I think that the the recycling is a good and um and um yeah I I have places in in downtown where I can take um clothing to be um donated, but I I I, don't know that everyone wants to take um almost rag clothing to the DAV. So so I'm not I'm, not even put a lot of thought into this in the previously. So if you want to come forward with some more specific proposals that be fine with me, so.

A

I would I would say the cause is good, I understand the recycling. The problematic portion of it is what you see like with the extra garbage set beside another one right by me. Also has that you know you have a school ground that will probably clean it up, but I think we have to look at the unintended consequence. What is going to happen down the road?

A

This could be a great operator and then what goes forward so, whatever we put together uh I, would welcome looking at it closer, but I think we have to be very careful going forward on how we're going to implement it in a fair way. That's not out on sidewalks in the front. uh If you can move it to the back, people can still get through the back of a school too, but if it's just on every random business, I think we could have problems.

A

So, unfortunately, some things that are good ideas become magnified problems for us down. The road and I just want to avoid any of that again great cause getting recycling clothes, but can we do it in a way that doesn't have a lot of containers out in front of every place and possible crash with that?

A

Is that Claire everyone so.

J

So moving forward I think maybe staff can take a look further in depth here and come up with some standards that maybe that that would be looked at then um I guess I would I would I'm curious if there's really the desire to make it a more formal kind of review at a board of adjustment level based.

B

On its use, yeah.

J

Based on a use versus I.

D

Would say no to going through Board of adjustment, I think that we should just have a standard, and that be the standard that we use and have the permitting process and be able to enforce based on that standard. That's what I was talking about at.

B

Least like the transient, yes,.

G

I mean it obviously has to go through some type of site plan yeah. So, like you can't just pop these.

J

G

Transient emergency.

J

Company transient Merchant, for example, it has a required site plan and they're they're limited to a location on the site and um we're they're enforced to that. Of course. That is a challenge, because you know these things move around every day, so yeah we have to stay. On top of. We still have issues with.

G

J

Mean that's, that's a difference so I mean that gives you a flavor for the challenge of something we do allow in our ability to enforce it. um When we, when we have the spectrum of different uh operators, you know good operators versus not so good operators right and.

H

If I could just get one comment, you know this is costing taxpayer dollars. These are City staff. That's having to spend time dealing with this and there's a cost to that. Why why even deal with.

D

I think, unless we're going to say absolutely no clothing, recycling bins, there's going to be stop time, that's going to be dedicated to it, because if this is going to exist in our city, then stop time is going to be dedicated to it. And if we have a standard, it's a little bit easier for staff to deal with it. It seems to me than if we don't, if you just.

G

A

G

Don't we I, don't think we I.

A

Think that we need to roll in to have these boxes, no I think we need to have in um we'll leave it up to you and your staff to come back with uh maybe more information as far as what could be an alternative to make sure we have some controls on this and that we still provide a service of recycling or if what other recycling is available uh to your point, if there's other people that are doing it, then how much are they doing and what can they expand?

A

What they're doing so that we don't have bins in every building in the front.

B

It's fair to say that in either a zboa process or a permit, a new permit, the site is going to be reviewed, correct and the the requirements for screening and and uh Sheltering whatever would would apply in both cases.

B

So if you haven't already spoken to whether you would prefer a permit style or a zboa process, I would ask you to reach out to me, and let me know that, because I've got some notes on that.

A

B

I'm going to need to know further from those that happens, but.

G

We are talking about screening, then right.

B

Either way it's just whether it's a business through a business uh permit uh that gets reviewed for a zboa they're going to have site requirements, site, site, Street, okay, okay,.

A

With that have we got third Direction enough.

B

Reach out to those that and I'll check with the mayor as well: okay,.

A

Thanks, thank you.

J

A

B

So we have a last topic here for this morning: uh concern that a couple different council members have brought to us about hazardous trees, particularly on private property, because uh we have a pretty good process when we have trees that are overhanging, public, sidewalks and and right-of-way to get those addressed quickly through Public Works in forestry.

B

But now we have a higher concern: uh the ash, borer trees and others on private property that put at risk other private property, and so we wanted to introduce this topic, get some input and see what our next steps might need to be, which may include more research. Thank you.

L

Mayor Pro tem members of the city council, Chris Johansen, Neighborhood, Services, director uh Scott, alluded to here to talk about Manning and city code to allow City take enforcement action on hazardous trees on private property. One thing to be clear: the specific requests that we did get from city council was to limit it to rental property, um but as part of our review, we did want to look at it for all private property, so staff did meet with uh um staff from Public Works forestry division.

L

Legal department did visit with City manager's office and uh come up with this discussion today. We're going to look at uh some considerations for Council to weigh in and reviewing our next steps on. This staff did look at surrounding ordinances of other of other cities, and we do have some sample ordinance language to go over as well with that I'll turn it over to Dalton to kind of go over his review.

M

Thank you good morning, Dalton Jacobus, nid administrator I'll go through kind of like the the program and what it could look like if you have any questions about the trees. Specifically, we've got Shane here from forestry and if you've got questions about kind of the legal implications and saving us from ourselves. Gary's here from the legal team.

M

So the request came from Linda or uh private hazardous tree enforcement. Des Moines does not currently have that in our ordinance in chapter 42, which is where we handle most of our like junk and debris, and health and sanitation stuff.

M

um The original request was the handle it on private property for rentals and I'll kind of get into how we approach that.

M

So here the the things that you need to consider in an amendment to the ordinance to to take enforcement action on hazardous trees on private property would be certifying that the tree is a hazard and my team, you would probably want to have that done by an arborist or a tree professional. My team is not currently able to do that, which is why we asked forestry's input on this, um a bunch of different rabbit holes.

M

We can go down on any of these, so right now we're keeping a high level when we get a little more guidance from you. We can kind of drill down into that for our next discussion um uh consideration you might want to think about as we we talk about. This is uh the potential for damage during abatement by either City Crews or a contractor. If we do perceive at this program um currently when we do our cleanups, if there's a claim like a truck backs into somebody's garage or something every claim is a big deal.

M

That's not good, but we're talking about risk for catastrophic damage, so dropping a tree on somebody's house, a cable snapping on a crane, so there's always risk so just be be mindful of that.

M

uh Most of the health and sanitation stuff that that my team deals with is the result of uh you know: people piling garbage in their yards or junked out Vehicles, so the homeowner reasonably caused that nuisance, and so the homeowner can, for the most part, most of the time reasonably Abate that nuisance on their own, sometimes with with pretty minimal investment a tree. It's not like they planted this tree a hundred years ago, and it's now dead, so there's a very high cost of abatement that they realistically cannot do on their own.

M

So there's there's a pretty high Financial impact to the property owners, and we've got kind of a question about that. Later. On but uh as with all of our health and sanitation stuff, this kind of puts us reinforced on the letter of the code, but it does kind of put us in the middle of civil disputes. A few of them would be back a hundred years ago. They didn't necessarily have um like fences and property lines and the documentation just wasn't as good on it.

M

So people would plant trees on their property Corners in the rear yards, and so when we have a nuisance tree, it's going to be identifying whose tree is that specifically or what portion of that tree belongs to each person, uh and that is very tenuous situation for the city to be in. It's not unmanageable, but we typically try to stay out of civil disputes.

K

Along those lines, I mean there's a dead tree in someone's yard. I mean the tree. Canopy is large. The dead tree can be have limbs hanging over in someone else's yard. Frequently I mean that's what what causes some of this turn right right. How was that it's just silent on on who's, responsible I mean I assume if the tree is physically located.

K

You know some of the three is in in the yard and the canopy hangs over. We know the homeowner right.

M

Right so- um and this is why we got Gary involved with that legal team, so I'll give it a stab and if I'm butchering this I'm going to defer to Gary but Iowa's a Massachusetts tree law state, and so if the the part of the tree is hanging over the property. What's over, whatever is over your property you're well within your rights to trim up um make for a good neighbor that does not uh because you'll have somebody go on vacation.

M

The angry neighbor will go out there and Lop it straight up from the property line they're within their rights. To do that.

M

um But then it's again it kind of gets into the civil dispute thing as far as like the trunk itself being 100 on somebody's property, but the limbs being on somebody else's property. um They are. The non-trunk owner is well within their rights to trim that straight up in the property line, but a lot of the risks fall or lies with the actual main structure of the tree falling um and they can't debate that without going onto their properties. Does that make sense.

G

So when the tree falls on, my neighbor's tree falls on my fence I'm, it's hanging over I'm responsible for fixing. My my neighbor's.

N

Not responsible correct as I understand it Gary my butcher in that I mean that's what I! That's? What I've heard in the past yep I'm gonna defer to Gary on this okay.

O

Good morning, Gary good luck, assistant, City attorney, um there's actually a lot of a lot more subtlety in this than um probably we can address this morning. um So really, just this bit of the discussion has brought up the right to do something about uh you know.

O

Overhanging limbs versus the responsibility to take care of them and I think that's an important distinction, because part of the discussion, where we're talking about the scenario that you just gave mrigato, um if the if your neighbor's tree limbs, are overhanging your property, you may have the right to clear those at the property line, but not necessarily the responsibility to do something about those.

O

um You know with this with this ordinance or potential ordinance we're really focusing more on the responsibility piece of it, who who would be responsible for mitigating hazardous tree issues, um one of the one other aspect of that that we haven't necessarily looked at. Sometimes when we're dealing with these issues in order to determine ownership, you don't just you, don't necessarily Focus only on the trunk, but also like the root structure like if the majority of the root structure is located on the property line.

O

So there are a lot of complications and subtleties that that are involved here, that we would need to flash out further.

G

So if my neighbor's tree fell on my fence, is my neighbor Insurance responsible for fixing that vent or am I responsible for fixing that.

O

It there's not a clear-cut answer to that. Potentially you know your neighbor would be and it stop okay,.

A

This is confusing.

H

My tree is in my yard and it falls on Carl's house. Carl's insurance is responsible for it.

G

That's right and.

H

I think what has brought this up is I have an email from the insurance adjuster. One of these, ladies has had the neighbor's tree fall in her garage three times and she's had to have three different claims all submitted, while the neighbor just gets by without having to do anything.

H

So if you've talked to an insurance company or get an attorney in here handles with insurance. He'll tell you if it falls on your property, you're responsible for it, not the owner of the tree and I have an email where the where one of the ladies, the insurance person, says other states have tree ordinances to take care of this. Well.

A

P

H

P

Clarify I: don't think it is that clear-cut Linda, because, uh while the insurer, while being because you're talking about a couple of different things, you haven't, you have insurance and the particular insurance company might have a responsibility to the homeowner. It doesn't mean that if the adjacent property owner on uh the whom the tree belongs, uh if they have been negligent in how they've handled the tree, they may very well have their own responsibility doesn't mean that the individual insurance company isn't going to cover their insured.

P

They probably are, but they may have a separate cause of action against the negligent property owner. So and but it just depends on it's going to depend. What Gary said is accurate. It's going to depend on a lot of different circumstances respectively.

A

Why don't we well? Why.

P

A

Ahead and hear the rest of the presentation, it's not even close! Why.

F

Don't we go ahead.

A

O

If I could just respond to miss westergard in the litigation department for the city for eight years and when I left here in 2014 I became the managing trial attorney for Nationwide Insurance Company here for four years after that, I've done I've done litigation for insurance companies for government um and and so these issues, as Jeff mentioned it. Can it there's a lot of you have to determine whether there was negligence involved. If the tree just fell of its own accord, then what you're saying not of its own accord?

O

But if there was no negligence involved, then it it very likely would be the homeowner whose property was damaged. Their insurance company likely would pay that claim. But if the, if there was negligence involved, where there was liability on the part of the person who owned the tree, then they're like then their insurance company May pay. That.

G

O

On the amount of the damage involved, if it meets the jurisdictional limit for small claims or district court for.

D

Clarity, are you also saying there's confusion about right who owns the tree I'm.

O

D

Clarity are you also saying that there is confusion about who owns the tree? Those.

O

Are issues that are involved yes and I have litigated those issues and.

D

That's based on canopy and trunk and.

E

Root structure: okay, great.

I

Okay, so so as part of this, if the tree is alive or dead, I mean.

O

Yes, so like when we're talking about liability and negligence, for example like if you as a property owner have a tree that you know or should know, is dead and creating a hazard, and then it does I mean it and that's why, when we're talking about the the legal issues that are involved and we're talking about issues of for of causation foreseeability, you know those types of issues. So that's that's. Why there's not a clear-cut answer every one of these is going to be fact specific.

A

Okay, thank you. We'll continue with we're primarily probably talking about dead trees right.

M

Yeah, more likely.

A

Yeah I'm not saying other life trees, but in most cases this is the dead tree issue right.

D

So then there is negligence involved in a dead tree issue.

K

H

Just have to say, I didn't know, it was dead.

A

Oh well, anyway, let's go forward yeah, let's keep going.

M

um So the high cost of eight and civil disputes, which is where, like Gary's expertise, kind of comes into play here and everything we just talked about, obviously a lot of nuance to talk about and then funding assistance for um how? If you guys, want to entertain a funding assistance program, what you would want the threshold to be um if you would run roll it into an existing funding. Assistance program and I've got some follow-up on that bit.

M

So I checked the code for 14 of our Des Moines Area communities. 12 of those currently have language in their code that allows them to enforce. On I mean they call it. Debt disease dying, hazardous nuisance trees. They all call it a different thing. I just want to make sure I'm being clear. They might have the language in their code, but I have not talked to their team to see if they're enforcing on that language.

G

um So they have language in their code where you can go on private property and take down a dead tree 12 of the 14 communities that you that you investigated around the Metro.

M

Yeah, so it's in their nuisance codes, so they would get the notice and they don't Abate then yeah. The city would have the opportunity to do that. Yep.

H

But, but sometimes it's as easy, like in the case that brought this up, the the homeowners had three different claims. So insurance companies says we're not we're not going to cover this anymore. It's your neighbor's fault. Your city doesn't have a tree ordinance in place.

H

She went out she's concerned about the kids in this home that are up there playing with the emerald ash borer the tree doesn't have to be completely dead. For those limbs to fall, those limbs can fall and hurt. It can hurt the property owner, it can hurt the neighbor if those branches fall. Oh.

M

Yeah yeah so like why a lot of the ordinances say, um hazardous or dangerous or nuisance, so debt disease dying is the kind of the catchphrase on it. So it doesn't have to be dead as a doornail. It can be yeah on its way down. Yeah yeah, so.

A

That's how they write their ordinances right.

M

Right, yeah, that's a you're talking a policy discussion, so that's kind of where it falls on you guys and I got a couple uh ordinance. Examples like your request- and this is westergard I'll get to those in a second uh I. Also looked at uh 14, larger cities around the Midwest or for other cities around Iowa, not necessarily Central Iowa and 11 of them currently have language within their ordinance. So we are, we are kind of the outlier um and of the ones where I couldn't find it in their ordinance. They very well could have.

M

They could have it in a different spot, atypical of most other communities, so they they might have something.

F

M

And not none of the 14 communities that I surveyed in central Iowa, the Des Moines area or the Midwest. None of them make reference of limiting this to rental properties versus owner occupied commercial and that's whatever so, and.

H

That's fine with.

M

H

Rather that it.

M

And so when we were talking about this for everybody yeah, one of the concerns that we had is, if you put a PR like a you, take enforcement on a tree. That's on private property, half of it's on the rental properties, property line and half of it's on owner occupied line that just talk about Nuance. Again it gets. It gets kind of uh sticky a little bit yeah.

M

So here's some uh language- and this is uh preview- requests again Mrs westergard. This is all in the slide, decks, there's kind of quite a bit to take in, but um this is an example. I believe is from Minneapolis.

M

And I I have staff representative in there I'm, just not sure what this is going to look like I'm sure it'll, probably be an ID, that's taking the charge on it, but I don't know if it'll be contract inspections, staff inspections. What have you.

D

How easy is it to Abate a tree nuisance within 14 days.

N

Very difficult.

D

That's that's what I was going to say, like that's, not it's more of a warning that in 14 days we're gonna, take your tree down. Yeah.

N

So I mean I can tell you how you get an extension right right, I.

G

Mean because I'm sure the tree contractors be getting somebody there 14 days is I mean to.

B

But you could have a quote from the companies in.

N

B

A timeline from them officially so at least you knew it was being proceeding. Yeah.

H

And I'm, not even yeah,.

G

H

Concerned about this city, updating it think many Property Owners may just not realize that they have an emerald true or that they have an ash tree and that it's disease now, in most cases, it'll just start dropping branches still leafed out, but you'll get dropping of of large branches. They just need to be made aware: I mean in this case I mean in the case that brought this about it. It happens to be a rental and she doesn't even know how to get a hold of that person.

H

She tried to talk to the tenant and that didn't go anywhere because of the language Bearer, but she said I'm, afraid I'm, afraid of these kids that are out here playing that they're going to get hurt. Sure.

A

That's another.

M

Yep, um so to answer your question: 14 days is pretty unreasonable. So that's another policy discussion for you guys, I would I mean there probably need to be some kind of like a safety valve where, if it's wow, this thing is going to fall in the next couple days with a gust of wind, we've got emergency language, uh but for your typical dead disease dying, give them 30 and then that's again, that's up to you.

M

30 days would match our other health and sanitation cases in even 30 days is, is kind of pushing it for some of these three contractors. So.

K

I had been through.

F

My yard last year.

K

And I I called and they the quotes. I got for three four months out.

M

G

And that should be enough to give you an extension sure.

M

Yep and again policy discussion, but that would match our other abatement processes. Yeah.

I

So Dalton I see that uh trains in the audience here um Shane week. uh Let's see there was an issue last year on 35th Street about our tree over the garage and that uh over the neighbor's garage and it had already been whacked once and they were reticent to repair it again because there was more looming on that garage. Does it would? Would this policy address that issue to the best of your knowledge, a.

F

Private tree yeah.

I

Do you recall that home on 35th Street do.

A

You want to come up Shane.

Q

G

He doesn't recall the.

A

Truth he doesn't request so.

I

Basically, you don't even remember every tree in Des, Moines, Shane.

A

It's basically dealing with the private property or a tree between two private owners. Yeah.

Q

Yes, so you know we often get caught in I. Don't remember that specific example, but what you? Basically, what I'm getting from this discussion is that you, you you're you'll, be a dead tree or did a disease and dying tree and the city will say you need to get rid of that. Basically, so if that, and but at the moment the big distinction is we we do that for our for our city-owned trees or a private tree that might impact um City, Public, Safety or infrastructure. So the difference will be.

Q

This could be a hundred yards in the back of a property over another person's property and and where I'm understanding, uh Council west of the guards would like us where this has come to is that we can go in and enforce on that. So you need to remove that dead tree um I believe we used to have a ordinance back in the day and it was Dutch arm. Disease came about and from what.

Q

What I understand from an ex-city Forester is that it's been a there's, a lot of resources getting spent that were on private to private and that's what I think back in the day. They must have changed so that we don't have one now almost because of the time and resources and.

H

To that comment that might make a difference with insurance companies, if the. If, if my tree drops on him and then there's a letter out there that was sent to me saying you have a disease or dead tree, then that might make a difference with the insurance company. Oh.

I

For sure, yeah and I think earlier uh sometime last fall Jonathan and you took a look at uh what other cities were doing regarding uh emerald ash bore disease, trees on private property and I. Think Lincoln Nebraska had done a program, but they had federal dollars to help yeah.

Q

Results with I talked with them, and uh that was a one-off type of program where they got I. Think 100 200k went through it. Pretty quick, as you can imagine, there'd, be quite a demand for that I think at the moment, most people in the city don't know that we don't really do anything when it comes to private to private, but I mean that that would definitely change, but um we did talk to them.

Q

I'd be curious to see what the enforcement is like the cities that I talk to not so many people they might have the language in the code. I didn't investigate that I just talked to the city Foresters and ask what do you do and um they most of them besides Twin Cities and a couple others um actually didn't enforce on private it.

D

Brings up another question, probably not for you Shane but uh yeah, um how if we were to and if we were to Abate what insurance would the owner's insurance company be able to cover that? No.

M

I mean I, don't want to say no always but very likely, no versus.

D

Versus if they were to deal with it themselves that it would or is that only if it falls.

P

The insurance won't pay for that. Okay.

G

So I guess Shane made a comment that, like you know, if the tree's 100 yards in the back so does he have the resources to be able to I mean you're gonna have to drive your truck on someone's yard and then, if we damage their yard, are we going to be responsible for that I mean? How is that going to play out all good questions.

M

Yeah so as far as driving.

G

I mean unless I mean he doesn't have climbers I, wouldn't think that we're going to have people go climbing right, you're in a bucket truck when you're cutting down trees. So what I've seen.

M

Them do it. What I've done in the past is have arborists go out, so I did the dead reinforcement thing so I'd had marvelous go out, they would write me a letter certifying yep the Norway spruce on the southwest corner of this specific property is dead disease or dying and poses a risk, and then I would take that letter from the arborist and I would send it to the property owner and say this was a an inspection from the ground. No aerial inspection, no climbing.

M

um If you'd like to appeal the decision get another arborist direct me a letter climb it and write me a letter saying no, no, it sinks. Fine! We're good, uh never wants to have that happen.

G

So do we have the resources to to actually go, and do this without I mean that that sounds like we're? I mean I I understand what we need to do, but when he said we got to go, you know it could be 100 200 yards back into someone's property, and we do it.

G

Do we have the resources to do that and I'm looking at Jonathan I'm looking at Pam and they're, all shaking.

B

Their head, like no there's not today and again it would there's there's layers to it. There's the inspections in the notice, but then, if there's enforcement required because they don't then act upon it uh is a whole nother. Well,.

G

No I can see us go in and send a letter and I mean the biggest thing is abating it if they don't do it or when you're going into someone's yard- and you know on a day like today with this big bucket truck and putting big ruts in their backyard and then who's gonna fix that we.

D

Would likely contract that, wouldn't we.

I

Be the responsibility of the homeowner to find someone to move the tree.

A

If they don't do it, though, if they don't do.

Q

A

That's what the ordinance or, if we put an ordinance in place, we would have to determine all those details.

H

We wouldn't have to have made it, though we could just put the ordinance in place. Have that letter be there. So if there is a problem with it falling on on my neighbor's house, they've been on notice. They know that it's a hazard.

G

But so we're not going to I'm sorry, so we're so we're not we're not going to go cut it down. Then we're just going to tell them. It needs cut it down and then, if they don't cut it down, then we're not going to go. Do it is what you're saying is that is.

P

An option I think that aggressive language, it says the staff representative may cause the condition to be corrected. So it would be one of those that maybe if it's a particularly unusual circumstance and there's a you know, it's it's next to a school or a daycare, and you've got a lot of little children. That may be one at the council or the manager, as the chief enforcer of the code wants to act on in that circumstance, but you wouldn't have to it doesn't say: shell all.

N

Right sounds good. Sorry,.

A

Can I just that before we have more? Do we have more presentations, or is this.

M

Is there anything else.

A

You wanted to go over, there's.

M

A couple more slides, yeah. Why.

A

Don't we see the slides, then we follow up with any questions at that point sure.

M

On the on the identifying, the defect probably should address that as a challenge. If we identify an unsafe tree and then don't require that it's abated and it does fall, there is a huge risk for the city there. So again, that's if you want to put that in the ordinance we just notify him of a hazard. I would rather not even touch it. In the first place, we're not going to be willing to Abate or require abatement.

G

Yeah, because if we send them a letter and it falls to kill somebody on their house.

N

G

We're responsible for it right, but.

H

If it's a rental, then we could require that as part of their rental suit too.

G

Yeah but there's no there's not one yeah, okay,.

A

Okay, get through the slides.

M

And then so, the second ordinance, uh this one is actually from Minneapolis. The other one was from I think West, one uh in the Des Moines area. There's really two there's two varieties of what that language looks like. um If you check out like the city of altoona's code, pretty much all of them. Look like that I'm not saying Altoona wrote it they're just alphabetical, so they got them first.

G

M

So really what we need from you guys today is this big picture. There's, obviously a ton of nuance discussion to be had, but is pursuing a dead disease dying, hazardous private property tree enforcement program, something that the council is willing to I.

D

Would like to know about those 14, some in Midwest cities and Des Moines Area, what the enforcement looks like, because you said you looked at the ordinances, but you didn't talk to them about enforcement, so I'd like to know if they're enforcing or how their enforcement works that hopefully clear up some questions that.

E

We have so there.

M

A

M

The ordinance reads that they may Abate.

G

D

If we could talk to their nid and Forestry and public works, and also legal, maybe to figure out how they're managing that ordinance, that would be helpful frequencies.

K

Yeah I mean my take is this is an issue we need to address, I, get that the liability issues and are a problem. I I also think abatement looks a little bit different in this context, I mean I think we want to try and require the property owner to Abate when they're hazards, because if the property owner doesn't like any other any other new nuisances it it's a problem. In this case it's actually a problem from a safety perspective in very immediate ways that that others are.

K

uh You know, others are not it's not just a deterioration of property. If you have a. If, if you have someone walking under that in a large limp Falls I mean that that is scary. Okay, so I mean we need to figure out a way to address it. But I know there are a lot of difficult issues underneath it too.

A

Yeah I think the important thing I think there's consensus. Everybody wants something to be looked at or I want some process put in place and come back with what you would consider the best ordinance or our city I believe, there's consensus from everyone to do something more than we are doing now. I.

G

Don't know I should just limit it to the rental. I mean.

A

G

No I think that that's open I.

H

Think it should be everybody. Yeah I mean this.

G

Is something that affects you know the health and well-being of everyone, especially if they're living in the house with their neighbors feet hanging over it, yeah I think that's the most important we need to.

D

I will say if we're talking enforcement I, don't know that I've entertain someone that didn't have some kind of funding component for below 80 Ami, like some kind of assistance.

G

Well, that's where, like ion or something.

D

Yeah I wonder if we could have a program like that, even where, given that like, we can put some number of days on there. But it's going to be what four months out for somebody to even be able to get a quote, maybe or to be able to get abatement like if we had some kind of like we'll work with you to find somebody to take this down or something like that would be maybe more productive. Just.

B

Just be aware that these can be incredibly costly. Yes,.

D

A better understanding.

B

Just escalates the issue that you've brought up, but it would take away from a lot of other programming, so we can bring forward what it would. What typical costs would look like what partner. Maybe non-profit partners are in this area, um but it's it's got a lot of similar feel to it with some of the other policies we've been talking about. That's.

D

Exactly why I want to know what other? What enforcement looks like when, when places that have this ordinance.

B

Okay, I think that it's a good start. Okay,.

A

Thank you. Well, it looks like we are at the end of the items we're going to talk about. We will meet again at 4 45 for the regular city council meeting. Thank you.