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From YouTube: HYBRID Sustainability Commission Meeting 4/12/2023
Description
Agenda HTML: https://englewoodgov.civicweb.net/filepro/documents/159136?handle=F7AE316CF43D44709483D9E09A0FC23C
Agenda PDF: https://englewoodgov.civicweb.net/filepro/documents/159135?handle=A35FC9F1257C48C1B858D003BEB1AF34
1. Chair Michael Chisholm approval of the agenda
2. Roll Call
3. Call to Order
4. Welcome Guests
5. Approval of Minutes
Minutes of the Sustainability Commission Meeting of March 14, 2023
Minutes of the Sustainability Commission Meeting of March 22, 2023
6. Upcoming Tasks and Events
Sustainable Development Discussion with William Shutkin (45mins)
Upcoming Events / Important Dates (2 minutes) April 17: EV plan goes to City Council for potential adoption April 22: Earth Day Celebration May 25 and May 27: BioChar Pilot
May Meeting Ideas/Topics (5 minutes) GRID Alternatives
7. Public Forum
This is an opportunity for the public to address the Commission regarding items not on the agenda. Commissioners may ask questions for clarification, but there will not be any dialogue. Presentations ...
8. Staff's Choice
9. Council Liaison's Choice
10. Commissioner's Choice
11. Adjourn
Agenda HTML: https://englewoodgov.civicweb.net/filepro/documents/159136?handle=F7AE316CF43D44709483D9E09A0FC23C
Agenda PDF: https://englewoodgov.civicweb.net/filepro/documents/159135?handle=A35FC9F1257C48C1B858D003BEB1AF34
A
B
A
B
C
C
A
C
Thank
you
so
move
the
proof
and
then
the
second
meeting,
which
again
I
want
to
thank
everybody
who
attended
that
meeting,
and
that
was
the
meeting
where
we
went
through
our
recommendations
to
city
council
and
Christine
did
a
lot
of
work,
putting
those
recommendations
together
on
a
whole
bunch
of
electronic
environmental
issues.
So
does
anybody
have
any
questions
or
thoughts
on
the
minutes?
For
that
second
meeting.
C
B
D
B
B
B
B
B
He
has
his
ab
and
history
and
Classics
from
Brown
University
at
JD
and
man,
history
from
the
University
of
Virginia,
and
he
completed
doctoral
studies
as
a
regent
fellow,
at
the
University
of
California
Berkeley,
and
attended
the
executive
program
and
business
strategies
for
environmental
sustainability
at
Stanford.
Graduate
School
of
Business,
so
I
also
want
to
say
as
a
great
podcast
out
there,
which
I
definitely
think
everyone
should
check
out
call
the
sustainable
city.
A
Night,
actually,
we've
got
a
session
recording
session
tomorrow
night
and
my
graduate
students
are
actually
our
producer.
We
I
have
a
co-host
named
Andy
Bush.
We
do
this
with
MIT
press
and
I
have
a
graduate
student
each
year
who
serves
as
producer
and
and
gets
paid
for
the
privilege.
So
it's
it's
really
fun
great,
but.
A
Worries
I
think
I
think
you
covered
it.
You
know
I
would
only
add
Mel
that
I've
been
in
Colorado
in
Boulder
for
15
years.
This
is
my
15th
year,
although
I
was
in
San
Francisco
for
five
of
those
years,
I
was
commuting
back
and
forth.
My
my
kids
were
here
and
the
first
organization
that
Mel
mentioned
that
I
founded
in
1993
is
30
years
old
this
year.
So
think
of
me
as
as
having
been
in
this
field
now
for
three
decades,
even
God.
C
B
And
also
just
to
introduce
this
group
to
you
William.
This
is
the
sustainability
commission,
so
they
are
a
resident
volunteer,
Englewood
resident
group
and
they
really
advise
the
city
of
Englewood
for
sustainability.
So
we
have
a
sustainability
plan
with
Goal
areas
and
we'll
kind
of
field
any
like
projects
or
anything
through
them,
and
they
can
also
kind
of
bring
concerns
or
or
questions
to
the
city,
and
we
can
try
to
answer
those
and
make
things
happen.
B
So
one
reason
that
we
really
wanted
to
have
you
here
was
that
the
city
is
growing
like
I,
think
a
lot
of
cities,
but
especially
cities
across
the
Front
Range,
and
we're
seeing
some
change
and
I
thought
you
would
be
the
best
person
to
talk
about.
You
know
what
would
a
sustainable
developed
kind
of
future
for
Englewood
kind
of
look
like
so
the
sustainability
commission
members
did
submit
some
questions.
I
thought
I
would
kick
it
off
with
one
that
they
had
submitted
and
then
I'll
open
the
floor
to
them.
B
B
It's
just
really
learning
about
projects
that
you've
done
in
other
places,
so
maybe
highlighting
one
or
two
of
your
favorite
ones.
I
know,
maybe
that's
like
picking
a
favorite
child,
it's
just
taboo,
but
if
you
have
any
that
stick
out
and
kind
of
positive
outcomes
that
came
from
that.
That
would
be
great.
You.
A
Got
it
Mel?
Well
a
couple
of
things
just
before
I
I
launch
into
the
substance.
First
I
commend
the
commission
and,
by
the
way,
I've
reviewed
your
website,
though
I
didn't
get
a
chance
to
go
deep
and
see
about
any
of
you
in
terms
of
your
bio
or
backgrounds,
but
I
enjoyed
reviewing
the
commission's
mission
and
and
Focus
areas.
So
I
applaud
you
for
for
doing
this
work
as
volunteers,
citizen
volunteers.
I
also
want
to
applaud
you
for
your
excellent
judgment
in
hiring
Mel
and
you're
I
believe.
A
Are
you
the
first
sustainability
coordinator
for
the
city?
Yep,
that's
terrific,
so
so
seriously
kudos
to
you
because,
as
you
all
I'm
sure
know
it's
all
about
the
people,
and
especially
in
in
public
service
in
the
public
sector,
you
know
finding
super
skilled,
smart
folks,
Mel
could
have
probably
gone
anywhere,
and
it's
just
says
a
lot
about
who
you
are
as
a
city
and
as
a
governing
body
that
that
Mel
is
with
you
and
that
you
selected
her.
A
So
kudos
now
to
the
questions
when
I
said
to
Mel
is
just
because
of
the
the
busy
schedule
that
we
all
have.
I
wasn't
really
able
to
formally
prepare
anything
but
figured.
This
could
be
a
a
kind
of
informal
conversational
session
and
by
the
way,
if
we
do
go
over
the
45
minutes,
I'm
good
with
that,
my
wife
and
I
might
not
be
so
good
with
it,
but
but
I'm
good
with
it.
A
So
no
worries
if,
if
we
bump
up
against
that
or
or
go
beyond
it,
so
conversational
the
first
question
sort
of
favorite
projects.
Well,
let
me
I'll
start
with
with
one
that
takes
me
back,
because
I
think
it'll
tell
you
a
little
bit
about
what
I
care
the
most
about
and
and
where
some
of
my
own
expertise
lies
as
Mel
noted.
A
The
second
non-profit
I
founded
in
1999,
which
is
now
24
years
old
and
has
over
50
staff
in
three
different
states
in
the
Northeast
headquartered
in
Boston,
is
called
New
ecology.
New
ecology
was
a
bookend
to
the
first
organization,
Ace
known
by
its
acronym
alternatives
for
Community
environment.
Where
I
used
my
lawyer
skills
and
that
of
my
colleagues.
A
My
interest
is,
and
was
really
in
being
more
creative
and
more
forward-thinking
about
how
to
do
this
work.
The
work
of
building
green
inclusive
communities,
communities
that
are
full
of
jobs,
full
of
young
people
and
old
people
from
different
walks
of
life
and
super
green
meaning,
access
to
Green
spaces,
really
low
carbon
footprint,
walkable
bikeable,
connected
communities,
Etc
and
I,
founded
New
ecology,
as
really
the
first
organization
of
its
kind
anywhere
to
bring
Green
Design
and
development
strategies.
A
What
you
might
know
as
Green
Building
strategies
like
lead
us
Green,
Building,
Council
certification
system
to
developers,
focused
on
low-income,
neighborhoods
and
neighborhoods
of
color
in
and
around
Boston,
who
were
probably
the
last
in
line
to
get
all
the
benefits
of
green
design
and
development,
but
the
first
in
line
to
get
all
of
the
negative
effects
of
polluting
development
patterns
and
that's
how
and
why
I
found
a
new
ecology
and
the
first
thing
we
focused
on.
We
wrote
the
very
first
official
business
case
for
the
costs
and
benefits
of
Greening,
low-income
housing.
A
It
was
published
in
2003
to
national
attention
and
press,
because
we
wanted
to
make
the
case
that
you
can
do
green
and
do
it
super
affordably
and
efficiently.
At
the
same
time,
that
green
wasn't
just
for
super
wealthy
affluent
communities
like
say
Boulder,
but
rather
it's
something
we
could
do
if
we
do
it
thoughtfully
and
well
everywhere,
especially
where
the
environmental
harms
are
greatest,
which
again
are
our
low-income,
neighborhoods
neighborhoods
of
color,
not
just
in
cities
but
but
in
other
parts
of
the
country,
other
places,
Rural
and
Suburban.
A
That's
how
I
first
got
into
development
and
realized
that
probably
the
most
valuable
thing
I
could
do
as
an
environmentalist
and
as
a
tree
hugger.
One
of
my
books
is
called
a
republic
of
trees,
I'm
not
committed
and
Obsessed.
The
other
book
is
called
the
land
that
could
be,
which
is
a
line
from
a
Langston
Hughes
poem
that
actually
talks
about
Douglas
County
and
are
you
guys
in
Douglas,
County
or
just
a
Jason
too?.
B
A
What
county
are
you
but
you're,
basically,
the
same
latitude
as
as
some
of
the
Douglas
County
communities
and
I
wrote
that
book
and
it
was
published
in
2000
and
at
the
time
you
might
recall
those
of
you
who
around
then
that
the
big
concern
and
fear
in
2000
was
that
Douglas
County
would
run
out
of
water
by?
When
do
you
remember
the
date.
D
A
A
I
started
to
focus
on
development,
because
I
realized
that
the
most
effective
environmentalist
I
could
be
would
be
one
who
really
tried
to
build
and
rebuild
our
existing
Human
Habitat,
that
is
to
say
our
existing
cities
and
towns
in
a
way
that
would
make
them
both
greener
and
more
thoughtfully,
designed
in
terms
of
how
people
got
around
from
place
to
place.
So
we
could
have
less
cars,
we
could
have
more
walking
and
biking.
We
could
have
less
commuters
and
commuter
traffic.
A
We
could
have
communities
that
were
more
self-sufficient
and
self-contained
in
terms
of
food
production
in
terms
of
open
space
and
Parks.
You
know
all
the
things
basically
that
Boulder
was
talking
about
in
the
50s
and
60s
as
a
pioneer
many
of
those
strategies.
To
this
day
you
know
sort
of
cutting
edge,
but
doing
so
in
a
way
that
wouldn't
turn
convert
those
self-same
communities
into
basically
Aspen.
A
First
project
I
took
on
in
a
bona
fide
real
estate.
Developer
capacity
was
in
2015
when
I
was
still
president
of
the
world's
leading
sustainability.
Graduate
school
called
Presidio
graduate
school
I
moonlighted
in
part,
because
I
have
a
bunch
of
Denver
developer
friends
who
wanted
to
learn
more
and
do
more
sustainability
projects,
and
there
was
an
opportunity
to
do
something
in
Boulder
that
we
figured
was
going
to
be
both
brain
damage
and
worth
it.
You
probably
know
that
places
like
Boulder
I,
don't
know
necessarily
englewood's
sort
of
hurdles.
A
I,
imagine
they're
considerable,
but
Boulder
is
probably
a
top
five
most
difficult
place
to
do
development
in
in
part,
because
nobody
wants
it
like
most
communities
once
they're
there.
They
want
to
lift
up
the
drawbridge
sound
familiar,
but
how
can
a
place
like
Boulder
consider
itself
really
green
when
really
all
it's
been
doing?
A
So
how
can
we
consider
ourselves
or
any
Community
like
Boulder
green,
when
we're
basically
not
allowing
more
development
to
happen,
continuing
to
attract
a
lot
of
jobs,
because,
of
course,
we,
as
you
know,
have
a
university
and
continuing
to
basically
push
people
out
farther
and
farther
on
the
margins,
not
just
to
Boulder
County
but
of
course,
Beyond?
Well,
Larimer,
you
name
it
farther
south
Boulder
Community
Hospital,
which
employs
2
200
people.
The
average
commuter
time
by
car
is
45
minutes
each
way.
D
A
County
Hospital
passes
three
hospitals
on
their
way
to
Boulder,
Community
Hospital
I
know
this
because
the
first
project
I
took
on
is
just
less
than
just
about
a
mile
from
bch's
Foothills
main
campus
and
it's
a
15-acre
site.
It
was
the
largest
privately
owned,
still
privately
owned
site
in
the
city
of
Boulder
when
we
purchased
it
in
early
2017.
After
a
Year's
worth
of
due
diligence,
we
are
in
about
halfway
through
construction
on
317
units
of
Apartments
and
Townhomes.
All
rental
25
80
of
those
units
are
permanently
affordable.
A
We
also
have
a
an
affordable
commercial
space
program,
so
16
000
square
feet
of
our
mixed-use
commercial
space.
We
are
going
to
be
pricing
at
a
below
market
rate,
not
in
perpetuity
because
our
Equity
partner
wouldn't
allow
us
to,
but
we're
going
to
get
close
and
we're
going
to
own
and
manage
the
property
with
the
city's
blessing
instead
of
our
Housing
Authority
I'm
I'm,
most
proud
of
that
project.
For
a
number
of
reasons,
one.
It
was
the
most
significant
project
of
the
last
decade
and
a
half
in
East
Boulder
number
two.
A
It
led
to
a
new
plan.
The
East
Boulder
subcommunity
plan,
which
basically
now
as
of
two
months
ago,
established
an
ordinance
that
opens
up
our
industrial
zones
for
infill
residential
development
with
a
pretty
high
inclusionary
component.
That
is
a
required,
a
permanent
affordability
component
and
so
we're
now
looking
at
a
bigger
project
of
stones,
throw
away
that
will
allow
us
to
build
in
an
old,
Industrial
Park,
which
happened
to
be
purchased
for
the
highest
commercial
value
per
square
foot.
A
It's
about
80
percent,
who
are
earning
the
area
median
income
for
60
percent
of
Ami
and
Boulder
counties
about
fifty
thousand
dollars
for
a
household
of
one.
We
have
apartments
at
60
and
50
percent
of
Ami.
So
that's
basically,
families
made
up
of
of
administered
staff,
Maybe
Junior,
nursing
staff
and
and
other
what
we
now
call
Essential
workers
who,
but
for
this
kind
of
creative
Leasing,
simply
can't
afford
to
live
anywhere
near
Boulder
when
the
next
Wildfire
or
pandemic
should
strike.
C
D
G
C
A
A
A
If
it
doesn't
happen,
it
ain't
gonna
happen
and
that's
reopening
our
zoning
codes
and
surgically
converting
up
zoning.
If
you
will
but
surgically
thoughtfully
carefully,
especially
single-family
zones,
which
would
include,
in
some
cases,
rural
zones,
but
also,
as
I
just
said-
Rick
industrial
zones-
it
doesn't
just
have
to
be
currently
or
formally
residential.
A
lot
of
this
can
happen
on
old,
commercial
or
industrial
land.
Think
of
all
the
malls
and
office
Parks,
especially
if
commuting
patterns,
work
from
home,
Etc,
continue
and
Technology
continues,
are
blue
and
blah
blah
blah.
A
A
Your
counsel,
your
planning
board,
your
city
council,
volunteer
students
who
want
to
be
open-minded
about
this,
who
aren't
coming
in
just
to
trash
it
and
say
no
way,
not
in
my
backyard,
never
could
happen
to
say.
Look
83
percent
of
Boulder's
current
residential
land
inventory
is
zoned
exclusively
single
family.
It's
illegal
to
build
anything
other
than
that.
Yes,
we
have
a
new
Adu
law
as
of
five
years
ago,
but
it's
so
freaking
complicated
that
City
that
city
council
is
is
revisiting.
A
A
I
live
in
one
I'm
sure
we
all
do
I
love
it
great,
but
if
I'm
really
serious
about
my
carbon
footprint
about
solving
for
climate
change
and
water
use
in
the
west-
and
you
all
probably
just
saw
the
headlines
in
the
paper
today-
the
Colorado
Basin
states
are
all
going
to
have
to,
according
to
the
Bible
Administration
split
up
water
use
evenly
among
the
seven
states
as
a
as
of
today's
proposal
by
the
feds,
which
is
sort
of
akin
to
SB
2013.
That
polis
has
just
put
forward
housing
now.
A
Basically,
what
Jared
and
the
state
are
saying
is
we
can't
rely
on
our
individual
municipalities.
What
do
we
have
over
270
in
Colorado
to
figure
out
their
Housing
Solutions
and
strategies
in
a
concerted,
coordinated
way?
Everybody's
foisting
their
housing
needs
off
on
someone
else.
It
ain't
gonna,
it's
not
working,
and
we
therefore
need
State
Intervention,
which
is
of
course
where
California
did
starting
four
years
ago,
and
then
they
upped
the
Andy
two
years
ago.
So
basically
California
leads
the
rest
of
us
eventually
follow
it's
a
collective
action
problem.
A
So
if
the
city
of
Englewood
can
figure
out
a
way
with
Mel's
help
and
your
help
to
surgically
change,
improve
I
would
argue
some
of
your
exclusive
single
family
or
rural
or
industrial
zoning
districts
to
allow
for
thoughtful,
infill,
A
and
B
at
a
density
that
actually
allows
a
developer
not
just
to
build
market
rate,
but
then
to
use
that
market
rate
premium
to
subsidize
the
inclusionary.
That's
how
it
works.
A
A
lot
of
administrative
work
that
goes
along
with
them
for
you
as
a
city
and
for
us
as
a
developer,
but
if
you
get
the
densities
right
and
if
construction
costs
start
to
moderate
and
if
the
land
price
is
reasonable
and
you
got
a
great
Community
like
Englewood
as
far
as
I
understand
high
quality
of
life,
people
love
living
there,
meaning
it
will
appreciate
over
time
and
chances
are.
You
could
find
Savvy
developers
who
wither
without
a
low
income
housing
tax
credit
could
meet
a
reasonable
permanent
affordability
standard.
Let's
say
between
10
and
20
percent.
A
Boulders
is
25
one
of
the
highest
in
the
country
Broomfield
just
instituted
a
year
ago,
a
20
inclusionary
requirement
and
you
build
in
some
flexibility
to
the
inclusionary.
But
you
allow
us
to
build
enough
units.
Apartments,
Town,
Homes,
probably
no
detached
single
family,
though
maybe
a
couple
of
tiny
homes
and
you
fill
them
in
strategically
and
beautifully,
and
you
get
great
design
standards
in
place
and
then
suddenly,
you're
filling
in
your
Downtown
parking,
lots
and
old.
A
You
know
retail
and
Commercial
and
you're
attracting
a
younger
demographic
like
Mel,
who
don't
want
to
have
to
get
in
their
car
to
go
everywhere,
because
now
they
can
walk
to
the
bar
restaurant
or
grocery
store,
and
the
grocery
store
will
now
want
to
be
there
because
people
can
walk.
That's
what
Longmont
is
finally
starting
to
do
on
287,
which
is
a
ghost
town
but
they're
now,
starting
to
you,
know,
re-examine
their
zoning
and
figure
out
where
they
can
put
mixed
use
projects
on
top
of
surface
parking.
Lots
that
make
sense.
D
G
I
I
your
kind
of
preaching
to
the
choir
on
a
lot
of
this,
because
I'm
I'm
totally
into
what
you're
saying
but
I
I,
just
our
biggest
Bugaboo,
has
that
they're
talking
you
know,
100
Ami,
to
get
it
to
get
a
developer
to
even
want
to
listen
to
this
on
on.
You
know
one
of
four
units
or
something
like
that.
A
G
A
Can
add
to
that
Rick
because
it
is
such
an
important
conversation
and
feel
free
to
shut
me
up
at
any
time
and
as
I
say,
we
can
go
past
7
30.
here,
here's
the
here's,
the
challenge
and
as
one
of
my
developer
colleagues
likes
to
say,
you
know,
development
isn't
rocket
science,
it's
harder
now
putting
Donald
Trump
out
of
your
mind
completely
and
and
all
the
other
terrible
developers
who,
like
in
any
industry
in
any
business
field,
have
done
a
lot
of
crappy
stuff,
which
is
the
problem
with
development.
A
Is
it
sticks
around
a
long
time?
People
see
it
and
they
form
their
opinions
around
that,
but
there's
also
a
lot
of
beauty
that
we've
created
and
when
you
get
social
impact
developers
like
me,
who
cares
much
about
the
environment
as
any
other
tree
hugger?
We
care
about
beauty,
we
care
about
environmental
sensibility,
but
we
also
deeply
care
about
great
urbanism.
What
are
the
communities?
What
are
the
places
people
want
to
live
in
and
I?
A
Don't
care
whether
it's
a
rural
town,
a
suburb
or
a
dense,
downtown
urban
area,
the
same
kinds
of
principles
to
planning
a
design
apply
which
is
do
it
thoughtfully
with
humans
in
the
environment
in
mind?
Here's
the
here's,
the
conundrum
and
one
of
the
many
reasons
that
this
work
is
so
challenging
at
any
kind
of
scale.
I'm,
not
talking
about
flipping
houses,
or
you
know,
building
billionaire
pencil
Towers
in
Central,
Park,
West
I'm.
A
A
That's
because
there's
no
policy
support.
There
are
no
incentives,
namely
tax
credits
that
help
offset
the
costs
of
constructing
and
then
selling
or
renting
those
houses
at
a
loss
and
I'll.
Give
you
an
example:
the
25
inclusionary
program
that
the
city
of
Boulder
implemented
as
of
July,
2019
or
2018,
effective
2019.
A
Basically
at
120
of
Ami
are
below
preferably
80
to
100
Rick,
the
same
Ami
level
you
were
talking
about,
but
nobody's
doing
that
the
city
allows
for
you
to
opt
to
do
your
your
additional
five
percent
back
in
the
low
range,
because
the
city
realized
that
it's
hard
to
require
something.
Where
there's
no
Financial
relief
available
whatsoever.
A
We
tried
to
build
of
the
22
permanently
affordable,
Town
Homes,
we're
building
at
the
Weathervane
Arapahoe
project.
We
would
have
lost,
lost
three
hundred
thousand
dollars
per
unit
on
a
for
sale
product
with
each
of
those
town
homes
in
the
red
which
fundamentally
undermined
our
pro
forma.
Even
for
140
million
dollar
project,
when
you're
losing
300
000
on
a
sale.
You
you
can't
get
financing.
A
We
had
80
local
LPS
from
Boulder
County,
from
whom
we
raised
14.6
million.
The
second
capital
raise
was
principal
Insurance
out
of
Des
Moines,
the
most
conservative
green
real
estate
Fund
in
the
country.
They
would
not
have
underwritten
that
kind
of
laws.
They
did
underwrite
80
permanently
affordable
units
with
no
lytac
because
they
believed
in
us
and
in
the
project
and
they
loved
the
Front
Range
in
Boulder.
A
So
it's
really
hard
to
do
missing
middle.
The
way
you
do
it
is
you
allow
for
more
density,
and
you
work
with
your
developer
in
an
open
book
format.
Have
him
show
you
his
or
her
pro
forma
tell
them
what
you
need?
If
you
can
raise
money,
if
you
can
float
a
bond
to
help
support
it,
you
know
Boulder
at
the
tip
of
a
hat,
will
raise
money
and
tax
itself
for
buying
open
space.
A
You
probably
all
know
that
it's
no
problem
for
us
to
acquire
a
three
to
five
million
dollar
parcel
of
land
several
times
a
year
and
tax
ourselves
for
it.
The
idea
being
that's
a
community
benefit.
Well,
isn't
it
a
community
benefit
to
have
fire
people,
Teachers,
Health,
Care
workers
able
to
live
in
your
community?
Isn't
it
a
community
benefit
to
have
your
kids
and
your
grandparents
be
able
to
live
in
your
community
and
I
say
that
as
a
lawyer?
A
And
the
answer
is
yes,
you
could
make
a
colorable
case
that
this
is
and
should
be,
a
essentially
a
targeted
or
protected
class
of
homeowners
or
renters,
for
whom
support
and
subsidy
should
be
available.
That's
the
argument
and
communities
are
starting
to
get
bold
because
it's
a
crisis
so
Necessities,
the
mother
of
invention
and
people,
are
now
saying:
look
our
community
Without
fire
people
and
police
people
and
teachers,
let
alone
kids
is
no
community
at
all.
We're
going
to
start
doing
something
about
it
and
it's
not
just
you
know
the
zoning.
That's
key!
A
That's
the
first
step.
Remember
ideally
you're
providing
financial
support,
some
kind
of
subsidy
per
unit
to
make
it
happen,
and
maybe
you
buy
down
the
mortgage
at
first.
Maybe
you
cap,
the
capital,
gain
the
appreciation
on
the
on
the
product,
which
is
a
typical
strategy
for
any
for
sale,
development.
A
It
just
requires
political
will
and
creativity,
and
the
people
who
are
doing
it
are
making
headline
news
as,
like
you
know,
the
new
champions
of
society
figuring
it
out.
Other
states.
Nation
states
have
Solutions,
it's
called
social
democracy,
they
provide
a
safety
net,
they
guarantee
housing
and
health
care
and
education,
and
they
basically
don't
worry
about
it
and,
as
a
result,
their
people
tend
to
be
a
lot
less
stressed
out
than
we
Americans
are
foreign.
F
Yeah
William,
I'm,
curious,
so
I
think
one
common
issue
we
have
in
our
city
is
there's
an
aversion
to
density.
Affordability
is
one
issue,
but
then
we
also
have
not
as
much
resources
or
money
as
we
would
need
for
really
critical
infrastructure
product
projects
that
are
directly
related
to
climate
change.
F
So
I
live
in
a
house
that
was
part
of
a
flooding
event
that
happened
here
in
2018
a
hundred
year
storm
and
our
infrastructure
was
really
inadequate
and
as
a
result,
there
were
deaths
in
my
neighborhood
and
all
the
houses
around
me
were
really
severely
damaged
and
flooded,
but
we
have
a
lack
of
resources.
They've
fixed
the
pipes
in
my
direct
area
that
there's
still
a
lot
of
work
that
hasn't
actually
been
prioritized
or
done,
and
a
lot
of
it
has
to
do
with
lack
of
tax
base.
F
So,
of
course,
I'm
all
for
affordability,
but
I
also
think
that
sometimes
cities
don't
understand
that
density
could
actually
lead
to
tax
base
that
could
fund
these
projects
that
we're
going
to
need
more
and
more
as
climate
change
becomes
more
and
more
of
an
issue,
and
so,
in
your
experience,
what's
your
advice
for
helping
people
understand
that
or
how
has
that
played
out
in
your
work?
As
far
as
the
tax,
the
upside
of
higher
density,
from
a
tax
perspective,
yeah.
A
It's
a
great
question
and
you
know
there
are
no
simple
answers:
Boulder's
a
paradox:
we
have
so
many
resources.
We
have
a
rich
tax
base.
We
have
high
impact
fees.
We
have
one
of
the
highest
commercial
impact
fees
in
the
country.
It's
escalating
up
to
I.
Think
it's
30
is
the
high
of
Palo.
Alto
is
the
highest
in
the
country.
I
think
they're
Now
37
a
foot
we're
able
to
do
that,
we're
able
to
tax
ourselves.
A
You
know
blah
blah
blah,
and
yet
we
still
struggle
to
build
these
projects
until
until
very
recently,
your
situation
in
some
ways
is
even
more
challenging
and
by
the
way
that
that
15-acre
site
sits
in
a
flood
plain.
The
neighbors
to
the
South
were
some
of
the
hardest
hit
in
Boulder
in
2013,
with
our
Biblical
flood
in
September,
we
had
to
do
a
letter
of
map
revision.
The
city
was
at
risk
of
losing
its
FEMA
flood
insurance.
A
A
A
Okay,
number
two
and
and
doing
things
like
changing
your
zoning
laws.
We're
talking
about
a
a
nascent,
inclusionary
housing
program
as
part
of
an
application
for
funding,
will
help
you
because
Grant
reviewers
proposal
reviewers,
are
basically
looking
for
inclusion
and
Equity
as
key
parts
of
any
funding
proposal
under
in
this
political
climate.
Under
this
Administration,
it's
not
only
the
right
thing
to
do.
It's
actually
advantageous
as
a
proponent
of
a
project
or
of
funding
so
check
that
out.
A
Secondly,
there
are
all
sorts
of
efficiencies
to
multi-family
infill
housing.
You've
got
much
less
per
capita
per
unit
cost
for
infrastructure
than
you
do
with
you
know
your
typical
subdivision,
built
on
the
outskirts
of
town
from
New
Roads,
to
sewer
to
water,
to
Electric
utilities
to
school
districts.
A
Theoretically,
which
gets
to
my
final
point,
which
is
just
really
good,
Financial
modeling
for
for
your
treasury,
for
your
your
Fisk,
your
public
funds,
I,
don't
know
what
sort
of
modeling
exercises
you
do.
Each
year,
Boulder
has
a
pretty
good
sophisticated,
a
method
for
developing
their
annual
budget.
A
Of
course,
we
also
look
to
private
developers
in
Boulder
to
to
do
a
lot
of
this
funding
and
so
I'm.
You
know
for
you,
thinking
about
impact
and
review
fees
which
no
doubt
you
have
and
and
do
you
know
where
can
those
be
tweaked
but
met
with
incentives
like
changes
in
zoning
which
arguably
at
least
up
front,
don't
cost
you
anything,
but
then
you
can
model
the
effects,
the
fiscal
impacts
of
build
out.
A
So
what
would
it
be
like
to
build
out
200
to
300
units
of
rental,
housing,
downtown
over,
say
the
next
five
years,
and
you
know
get
your
good
Finance
staff
to
begin
to
figure
that
out?
What
do
you
lose
in
services?
Remember
too,
that
many
of
these
aren't
big
families
moving
into
small
apartments
right.
They
tend
to
be
younger
people,
single
people
or
empty
nesters
and
and
therefore
the
potential
fiscal
impacts
might
be
more
modest
than
you
know.
A
So
good
fiscal
analysis
and
and
everything
from
zoning
changes
and
what
that
might
unlock
and
enable
which
includes
size
of
units
and
what
kind
of
households
you're
looking
at.
Yes,
we
all
want
families
to
come,
but
we
also
want
essential
workers.
We
also
want
young
people
who
don't
have
families
and
a
lot
can
be
determined
by
the
nature
of
the
zoning
and
the
nature
of
the
development
or
building
that
can
happen
in
those
zones.
Not
all
of
it
is
expensive.
You
know
a
single
family.
B
E
A
It
took
us
six
years
to
get
the
project
entitled
in
Boulder,
which
is
not
unusual,
a
pandemic,
huge
increase
in
construction
costs
and
a
continued
push
toward
all
electric
buildings.
My
other
project
is
all
electric
at
30,
30th
and
pearl.
That's
300
units
and
permanently
affordable
commercial
space,
120
permanently
affordable
residential
units.
So
effectively
was
it
Christine,
yeah?
A
A
So
from
our
from
a
leasing
perspective,
we
were
hesitant
to
go
all
electric
right
now,
but
every
year
you
know
the
technology
gets
better,
it's
great
now
and
more
rest
for
tours,
like
the
green
halo
effect
of
being
able
to
say
to
their
their
customers.
You
know
we're
an
all-electric
kitchen
now,
but
they're
still
a
marketing
appeal
to
to
a
gas
stove.
E
A
There
are
now
dozens
of
cities
who
are
who
are
moving
that
way,
including
New,
York,
City,
but
I.
Think
it's
a
transition.
I,
don't
think
it.
You
know
one
night,
you
gives
the
pun
flip
the
switch.
The
challenge
right
now
for
all
electric
is.
It
is
still
more
expensive
for
the
developer
from
a
construction
point
of
view.
A
A
So
there's
still
a
ton
of
barriers
Christine
to
doing
purely
all
electric
I
think.
The
transition
strategy
is
to
have
your
city
staff.
You
know
really
schooled
up
on
best-in-class
policy
models
for
all
electric
development,
all
electric
construction,
so
they
can
meet
an
informed
way
with
developers.
Some
of
them
will
not
be
as
cooled
up
as
they
are,
so
they
can
brainstorm
effective
strategies
and
potentially,
funding
pools
to
offset
what
are
still
premiums
for,
certainly
for
all
electric,
but
even
for
majority
electric
figure
out
how
you
might
be
able
to
power.
A
You
know
by
by
a
multiple,
maybe
two
to
three
x,
the
rate
at
which
we
uptake
Renewables,
be
that
at
the
industrial
scale
or
residential,
so
I
think
that's
probably
the
best
approach
transitional
but
well
informed
and
again
the
commission
could
do
a
lot
for
the
city
in
basically
learning
about
who's,
doing
it
the
best
of
a
comparable
City
size.
What
what
are
you
guys?
Thirty
thousand
we're.
A
A
B
D
H
I
think
that
what
you
said
just
that
development
needs
to
be
done
really
strategically
and
carefully
to
not
harm
our
our.
You
know
Urban
Ecology,
further
in
in
terms
of
things
like
Urban
heat,
island
effect
having
permeable
Landscapes
to
mitigate
flash
floods
and
just
biodiversity
loss,
so
I'm
wondering
if
you
could
give
some
just
really
specific
advice
for
what
what
you
mean
by
strategically
and
carefully
and
any
cities,
examples
of
cities
that
have
done
this
well.
A
There's
nothing
worse
for
the
environment
than
continued
sprawl.
At
the
same
time,
we've
given
ourselves,
you
know
so
little
option
the
the
idea,
I'm
sure,
you've
all
heard
the
phrase
Drive
till
you
qualify,
whether
it's
downtown
Englewood
or
downtown
Boulder,
it's
just
too
expensive.
Now,
so
we
we
got
to
keep
driving
and
developers
will
respond
to
that
demand
and
they'll
find
ways
to
to
get
land
taken
down
and
under
contract.
And
the
next
thing
you
know
the
the
Prairie
you
know
continues
to
to
sprawl
out.
A
So
what
I
mean
by
Surgical
is
just
the
opposite.
Looking
at
our
existing
built
environment
within
our
Municipal
boundaries,
or
for
that
matter,
County
boundaries
where
we've
already
got
much
infrastructure,
maybe
not
all
of
it
to
Matt's
point,
but
we've
certainly
got
more
than
we've
got
on
the
Prairie
or
you
know
in
in
the
mountains,
look
first
to
those
sites.
Now
we
know
we're
over
part
in
part
because
of
our
parking
requirements
right
historically
speaking,
at
least
for
the
last
50
years.
A
You
know,
looking
at
parking
ratios
of
two
to
one
like
I:
do
I
got
the
statistics
somewhere
and
I
recite
them
often,
but
I
just
can't
remember
them
now,
but
you
know
we
basically
have
like
seven
parking
spaces
for
every
car.
I
think
that's
the
data
in
the
average
U.S
city
and
town,
so
we're
over
part
this.
A
In
my
view,
the
smartest
cities
in
the
country
which
now
include
Longmont
are
looking
first
at
their
surface
parking
facilities,
all
those
lots
and
they're
saying
how
do
we
demolish
that
asphalt
and
put
something
productive
and
human
on
on
that
space?
You
know:
we've
tended
literally
to
privilege
in
our
zoning
cars
over
people.
A
A
That's
Surgical
figure
out
what
the
zoning
is
and
if
the
zoning
doesn't
allow
you
to
build
a
three
or
four
story:
apartment
complex
with
a
restaurant
or
office
space
on
the
ground
floor
then
change
it
and
change
it
for
the
whole
area
and
yes
do
a
public
process
and
spend
some
time
and
blah
blah
blah.
But
basically
say
this
is
what
smart
communities
are
doing.
A
Englewood
would
like
to
be
smart,
not
saying
you're,
not
I'm,
just
saying
if
you
haven't
done
this
yet
do
it
and
do
it
as
quickly
as
you
can,
because
in
the
meantime,
when
you're
not
doing
that,
while
you're
not
looking,
you
know
just
go
check
out:
Eerie
Superior,
East,
Boulder,
County,
I-25,
Corridor,
all
the
way
up
to
Fort
Collins
and
what's
going
on,
you
know
to
the
east
and
west
of
that
corridor
to
say
nothing.
South
and
I.
I
drive
to
New
Mexico,
quite
often
so,
I
I
know
where
you
guys
live.
A
A
A
Our
our
head
of
our
energy
offices
is
the
best
he's
just
an
amazing
human,
so
make
you
know,
take
advantage
of
of
him
for
that
find
ways
to
improve
your
Transit.
Do
you
guys
have
a
bus
system
in
Englewood
great,
so
identify
those
you
know,
key
bus
stations
and
nodes
see
how
many
housing
units
are
within.
You
know,
walking
distance,
so-called
15-minute
neighborhoods
and
start
to
fill
in
the
blanks
and
Matthew.
This
goes
to
your
point.
A
15-Minute
neighborhoods
is
the
planning
concept
du
jour.
It's
actually
come
under
some
fire
from
all
sorts
of
crazy
people,
but
the
bottom
line
idea
whether
your
community's
smaller
like
Englewood
or
larger,
like
New
York,
is
you
have
areas
designed
where
within
a
15-minute
bike
or
walk,
meaning,
you
don't
have
to
get
into
a
car?
You
can
access
essential
services
from
schools
to
grocery.
A
Dare
I
say
it.
Even
you
know
a
gas
station
or
some
other
utility
on,
let's
say
EV
charging
in
this
case.
So
you
know
the
15
15-minute
neighborhood
concept.
It's
been
in
place
in
Boulder
for
10
years,
we're
just
starting
to
take
it
seriously
and
the
way
you
start
to
take
it
seriously.
Is
you
look
first
at
your
zoning,
because
most
zoning
doesn't
allow
it's
illegal
to
do
a
15-minute
neighborhood
in
most
parts
of
your
city,
if
you're
like
most
American
cities,
so
it
starts
there.
C
You
know
it
when
you
see
that
or
you
envision
that
you
can
get
excited,
you
could
say:
that's
cool
I
I
could
live
next
to
that.
That
would
really
enhance
my
neighborhood.
So
there's
this
black
hole
between
this
sterile
Community,
Development
planning
and
I'm,
not
criticizing
angle,
with
Community
playing
and
development
I'm,
saying
there's
this
cookie
cutter
sterility
through
a
zoning
discussion
and
a
map
with
a
plat
that
distances
and
little
boxes
on
it.
C
And
then
you
look
at
places
like
Bellingham
and
Palo
Alto,
and
you
see
these
amazing
designs
where
you
there,
you
go.
That's
really
cool!
There's
nothing
wrong
with
that.
I
would
love
that
in
my
neighborhood,
how
do
you
bridge
that
Gap?
How
do
you
get
a
city
to
say
we
want
creativity,
we
want
design,
we
want
to
put
incentives
and
creative
approaches.
C
I
think
one
of
the
problems
is
the
citizenry,
just
can't
get
excited,
and
it's
it's
intimidating
and
it's
scary
to
think
of
these
little
Monopoly
blocks
coming
into
our
neighborhoods
on
a
four
corners
on
my
block,
so
I'm
going
to
have
four
or
four
units
on
my
block
and
the
whole
discussion
goes
off
the
deep
end.
So
how
do
you
do
that?
How
do
you
bring
those
Visions
together,
yeah.
A
It's
what
brought
me
to
Colorado,
because
our
technology
team
was
here
in
Boulder,
we
invented
a
technology
called
immunity
viz,
which
was
at
the
time
the
first
3D
2D
scenario,
planning
software
GIS
software
for
envisioning,
a
community
based
on
different
development
and
fiscal
scenarios
policy
scenarios
we
competed
with
Google,
SketchUp
and
Google
eventually
bought
SketchUp
literally
down
the
street,
but
there
are
now
today
and
Mel.
Could
now?
Did
you
take
a
GIS
class
when
you
were
here.
B
A
A
Basically,
computer
assistance,
design,
CAD
software
or
a
product
called
Reddit,
and
there
are
tons
of
them
now,
some
of
them
very
expensive,
but
some
of
them
less
so
or
free,
where
you
can
actually
start
doing
the
design
yourself
take
a
real
block
like
a
parking
lot
like
I,
keep
talking
about
or
even
a
cool
residential
block,
and
what,
if
there
were
really
you
know,
three
cool
I
ran
a
modular
company
on
the
side
for
a
while,
and
we
created
something
called
a
Power
Pod.
It
was
a
500
square,
foot
butterfly
roof
solar
powered
little
pod.
A
That
today,
you
know,
would
be
all
the
rage
we
ran
out.
We
ran
into
the
ground
in
2010
because
of
the
recession.
You
could
do
a
year-long
and
again
I
don't
mean
to
add
to
Mel's
dance
card.
You
know
ridiculously,
but
what?
If?
What?
If
Mel
did
a
six-month?
You
know
charette
process
pay.
Anybody
and
you
you've
organized
a
group
of
your
your
fellow
citizens.
You
know
to
spend
six
months,
two
nights
a
month
envisioning
and
using
this
CAD
to
actually
imagine
some
some
building
designs
and
massing,
whether
in
a
residential,
neighborhood
or
downtown.
A
A
Does
you
hire
a
Consulting
team
who
you
know
if
they're
good,
it's
not
a
cookie
cutter,
they
really
listen
to
you
and
they
develop
a
set
of
scenarios,
including
pictures
and-
and
you
know,
serious,
beautiful
diagrams
that
allow
you
to
begin
to
Envision
what
it
would
look
like
and
again
the
challenge
communities
like
angle
would
have
as
I
understand.
It
is,
as
you
say,
you've
got
a
lot
of
folks
who
are
afraid
of
of
that
change.
A
They
hear
all
sorts
of
stuff,
you
know,
but
younger
people
less
so
right
so
and
I'm
not
gonna
fall
into
the
Trap
of
telling
anybody
how
old
they
are
or
assuming
anybody
has.
But
you
know
it's
a
different
vibe
today,
my
own
kids,
who
are
21
and
25
like
this
stuff,
is
second
language
to
them,
even
though
they
lived
in
a
rural,
Vermont
Farmhouse
talking
about
good
urbanism,
talking
about
not
having
to
drive
everywhere.
A
A
All
of
it
is
possible.
All
of
it
is
designable
and
financiable.
If
you
can,
if
you
allow
for
it
and
encourage
it,
so
you
start
with
the
law
and
policy
and
planning,
and
then
you
know
you
go
from
there
right,
so
figure
out
a
budget
hire
a
firm
to
come
to
you.
A
year
from
now,
after
you've
done
some
Outreach,
some
stakeholder
engagement
after
you've
come
up
with
some
ideas
after
you've,
maybe
made
a
little
more
progress
on
rezoning,
R1
or
on
accessing
funds
from
the
state
or
IRA.
A
For
you
know
new,
swales
and
culverts,
and
then
maybe
think
you
know,
let's
start
with
this
particular
part
of
Angola
downtown,
or
maybe
this
one
neighborhood,
and
maybe
you
begin
to
do
a
kind
of
a
PUD
process,
a
plan
unit,
development
concept,
where
you
allow
for
a
lot
of
flexibility
and
freedom,
all
pointed
toward
a
bunch
of
goals
that
are
no
doubt
already
in
your
comp
plan.
That
says
you
want
to
be
family
friendly
and
you
want
young
people
to
live
there
and
you
want.
A
A
A
C
B
B
Job
it
was
a
team
effort
from
everyone.
There
was
a
lot
of
Resident
business,
a
lot
of
Outreach
to
folks,
so
really
really
happy
with
it,
hoping
it
gets
adopted
and
then
on
April
22nd
we
have
our
Earth
Day
celebration
at
grow
and
gather
from
12
to
3
and
yeah
I.
Think
that'll
be
really
well
good,
as
well.
I
didn't
hear
from
anyone
that
they
wanted
to
table
for
the
sustainability
commission
so
I.
Have
you
guys
as
a
no?
C
On
May
25th,
we've
picked
that
day
as
our
cleanup
day
for
the
biochar
project
over
at
the
rec
center
I
know
and
on
the
25th
that'll,
be
raking
and
cleaning
and
cutting
with
clear
all
the
leaves
and
the
debris
out
of
that
area.
So
if
anybody
can
help
that
would
be
great
I,
don't
think
that's
going
to
be
hours
and
hours.
It's
just
put
your
work
gloves
on
and
grab
a
rake
and
they'll
have
plastic
bags.
C
We
can
stuff
everything
in
and
then
once
it's
it's
clean,
then
we'll
be
ready
for
the
planning.
May
27th
is
a
Saturday,
that's
Memorial
Day
weekend
and
we
will
have
the
flowers
there
and
we'll
have
the
biochar
on
one
side
and
on
the
other
side,
we'll
have
compost
and
we
will
plant
flowers
and
we
want
we'll,
have
I,
think
we're
gonna
have
a
lot
of
flowers
to
plant
and
so
I'll
be
the
master
ceremonies.
I
volunteered
to
be
the
task
master.
C
So
I'll
warn
you
in
advance
again:
I'm
hoping
this
won't
be
hours
and
hours.
I
I
had
one
thought
of
just
getting
a
post
hole,
digger
and
going
around
and
digging
holes.
So
then
people
would
just
come
in
with
their
with
their
compost
and
their
plants.
So
we'll
figure
that
out
when
it
happens,
so
we'll
probably
have
some
tools
and
some
hand
tools
and
stuff
there.
So
love
to
see
everybody
there,
and
maybe
we
can
have
a
burrito
and
a
cup
of
coffee.
B
B
C
Some
of
you
have
already
told
me,
you'll
volunteer,
so
thank
you
in
advance
and
even
if
you,
even
if
you
don't
want
to
work,
just
come
on
over
and
see
what
we're
up
to
you
know,
we
won't
chase
you
down
or
make
you
do
anything
but
I
hope
it's
fun
and
I
hope.
It's
interesting
and
I
suspect
there'll
be
a
lot
of
questions
and
answers.
Oh
by
the
way,
here's
some
biochar.
If
anybody
wants
to
look
at
it,
that's
the
actual
stuff
we're
going
to
be
using.
B
So
I
I
put
this
up
there
just
in
case
in
case
you
all
were
interested
non-profit
that
Services
Arapahoe,
County
and
others,
and
they
offer
completely
free
solar
to
low
income
eligible
homeowners.
They
also
have
other
like
job
programs
that
are
really
wonderful
and
amazing
and
they're
very
fitting,
because
in
the
updated
sustainability
plan,
oh
gosh
I
should
know
this
off
the
top
of
my
head.
B
We
switched
it
I
think
it
was
your
suggestion,
switching
it
to
really
partnering
working
more
partnering
with
organizations
that
are
already
doing
solar
and
helping
accelerate
that
in
our
community
versus
kind
of
like
installing
an
entire
solar
farm,
which
just
seems
much
more
feasible.
So
that's
an
option.
If
you
guys
want
I,
can
reach
out
to
them
to
see
if
they
would
compensate
it.
E
C
That
would
be
enlightening
so
by
then
they
should
have
some
things
done
or
decided
so
it'd
be
nice
to
know
also
I'm
pushing
so
slow
me
down.
If
you
want,
but
Logan
had
mentioned
to
me
that
he
and
Cara
had
had
some
discussions
and
concerns
about
the
lack
of
perennials
in
some
of
the
city,
design
and
landscape
and
I'm
paraphrasing
and
also
the
lack
of
polyminners.
Why
aren't
we
landscaping
and
using
more
so,
for
example,
at
the
rec
center?
C
Those
are
all
annuals,
I
love,
flowers,
they'll
be
beautiful,
but
you
have
to
ask
yourself:
why
don't
we
put
some
native
plants
and
grasses
in
there
so
I
think
the
question
was:
how
do
we
raise
that?
How
do
we
bring
that
up
as
a
topic,
because
I
think
as
we
look
into
the
future,
it
just
makes
all
the
sense
in
the
world
for
Englewood
to.
C
I
think
we
need
raising
awareness
and-
and
there
could
be
more
to
it
than
what
some
of
us
understand
but
I
think
the
pollinator
Garden
is
over
at
Depot.
Park
is
incredible:
I
go
over
there
every
now
and
then
it's
just
starting
to
Green
up.
It's
really
cool.
It's
it's
happening.
If
you
get
a
chance
go
over
there
and
you
look
at
that,
you
think
well,
why
don't
we
do
this
more
often
I
mean
all
minimal
maintenance,
no
watering.
G
Mike
I
I
just
noticed
that
I
think
Adrian
and
this
group
put
out
of
the
all
call
for
anybody
to
to
do
the
plots
in
the
Parks.
All
that,
and
typically
it's
like
Lions
Clubs
rotaries
things
like
that.
That
jump
in
on
that.
But
the
bottom
line
is:
is
that
I
know
by
Bellevue
Park?
It's
all
it's
all
annuals!
C
Again,
you
know
just
every
year,
if
you
added
a
percentage
every
year,
it
wouldn't
be
long
before
you
had
some
nice
and
you
can
go
over
to
Depot
Park
and
look
at
which
plants
and
flowers
you
like,
but
it's
I
I,
think.
If
we're
going
to
be
sustainable,
I
think
we
really
have
to
raise
it
by
and
ask
for
people
or
pay
attention
anything
else
that
needs
to
be
talked
about
or
chewed
upon.
C
C
D
H
Okay,
that
it's
moist,
you
don't
want
it
super
saturated,
because
you'll
be
walking
and
compressing
it
compacting
it
which
you
don't
want
and
the
plants
will
be
small,
so
a
post
hole
digger
will
be
make
much
too
big
a
hole.
But
if
you
have
strong,
cordless
drills
and
an
auger
you
can
just
and
and
the
soil
is
moist,
you
can
just
power
through
and
auger
drilled
a
lot
of
holes
and
if
you're
bare
root
planting,
you
don't
need
to
dig
big
holes.