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From YouTube: Preservation Commission Meeting 5-15-2021
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B
Yeah,
I
I
think
we
do
since
it's
a
it's
a
public
meeting.
Okay,
all
right
so
we'll
run
through
the
the
typical
process.
A
All
right,
so
I
will
call
to
order
the
reach.
May
what
is
this
15th
retreat
of
the
evanston
preservation
commission
and
declare
that
we
have
a
quorum
we
do
have
to.
I
guess
so.
We
have
to
vote
to
open
the
meeting
or
I'm
sorry
to
waive
the
rules.
A
Okay,
so
then
I
guess
we'll
do
a
roll
call
vote.
So,
commissioner,
I'm
sorry
we
need
a
no.
I
think
we
need
a
motion.
Commissioner
reinhold.
A
I
who's
next,
commissioner
morris.
C
D
D
E
A
And
I'm
an
I,
I
guess
I'll
turn
it
over
to
you
guys
to
you
know,
introduce
the
speakers
all.
F
Right,
okay,
do
you
want
to
go
first
or
you
have
any
preference.
B
Why
don't
you?
Why
don't
you
go
first,
carlos.
F
So
I'm
very
happy
and
have
the
pleasure
to
introduce
richard
friedman.
He
was
an
attorney
at
neil
and
leroy
in
chicago,
and
I
met
richard
a
few
years
ago
when
we
were
doing
the
nomination
for
the
north
east
events
and
historic
district,
and
he
was
our
attorney
to
run
all
the
public
hearings
and
he
makes
sure
that
the
creation
follows
all
the
rules,
all
the
procedural
legal
matters
and
he
kind
of
navigated,
with
the
commission
in
a
very
efficient
way.
Quietly
but
effectively.
F
You
know
things
that
the
commission
ought
to
do
not
do
at
the
end.
And
then,
after
that
we
developed
a
friendship
over
the
years,
and
I
learned
that
he
was
teaching
at
the
art
institute
historical
preservation
and
he
is
also
a
educator
and
from
time
to
time
he
has
asked
me
to
go
to
his
class
and
speak
about
what
we
do
in
evanston
in
general,
and
you
know
about
historic
preservation.
So
I'm
very
pleased
to
present
richard
friedman.
G
Well,
thank
you,
carlos
and
hello,
everybody,
and
thanks
for
inviting
me,
and
I'm
pleased
to
be
here
this
saturday
morning
and
a
special
thank
you
to
carlos
for
helping
me
out
in
my
classes,
at
the
school
of
the
art
institute
and
being
very
generous
to
speak
in
the
past
several
years
to
the
class
and
giving
them
an
idea
of
what
historic
preservation
commissions
do.
So
thanks
very
much
and
glad
to
see
you
back
carlos
carlos.
G
Can
you
give
me
the
give
me
the
screen
and
I
I
can
begin
to
show
my
slides
or
whoever
has
got
in
charge.
G
And
this
is
me,
and
I
do
need
to
give
you
a
disclaimer
being
a
lawyer
and
having
once
represented
the
the
preservation
commission.
Today's
talk
are
really
my
thoughts.
This
isn't
legal
advice.
This
is
not
binding
opinions
on
your
ordinance,
although
I
am
going
to
talk
about
it
and
for
any.
G
These
are
the
basic
rules
of
historic
preservation
and
the
one
I
want
to
address
right
now
is
the
due
process
clause
of
the
fifth
amendment,
and
I
think
all
americans
really
know
what
due
process
is.
But
in
the
context
of
criteria
and
standards,
we
need
to
make
sure
that
everybody
unders
that
they're
drawn
in
a
way
that
everybody
can
understand
them
and
that
the
persons
to
whom
it
applies
know
how
to
conform
their
behavior
to
the
standards.
G
So
I've
kind
of
put
it
in
lay
terms
of
what
due
process
means.
It's
the
ability
to
know
the
meaning
of
the
words
or
what
meaning
they
convey
and
to
it's
to
the
average
persons
and,
most
importantly,
that
most
persons
would
agree
on
what
the
law
requires.
G
It's
easy
to
formulate,
but
particularly
when
you
come
to
artistic,
aesthetic,
creative
and
cultural
affairs,
it's
very,
very
difficult
to
apply
and
I've
drawn
this
arrow
here
to
give
the
kind
of
the
range
of
criteria
and
how
they
might
be
drawn
and
how
they
would
apply
to
the
due
process
clause
and
over.
On
the
left
side.
I've
got
narrow
and
specific
criteria
or
narrow
and
specific
standards.
G
G
Simple
standards
concise
is
that
they
would
be
easy
to
everybody
to
understand,
and
importantly,
there's
less
leeway
for
the
administrators
to
apply
them.
G
But
they
raise
the
question
and
we're
going
to
discuss
that
a
little
bit
of
whether
it's
a
guide
or
a
rule
are
they
mandatory
or
advisory?
When
you
have
so
many
of
them,
how
do
you
actually
apply
them?
The
worst
thing
about
them,
I
think,
is
that
they
provide
an
opportunity
for
their.
G
And
the
the
problem
is
that
they
might
represent
the
ideas
of
the
government
or
the
ideas
of
the
individual
administrators
or
the
ideas
of
the
preservation
commission.
G
Yet
it
could
be
a
vast
area
for
disagreement,
because
there's
so
many
pages,
so
many
circumstances
that
it's
difficult
to
determine,
which
one
would
apply
if
you
apply
how
that
whether
they
are
narrowly
drawn
that
everybody
might
agree.
So
this
is
the
range
of
things
for
application
of
the
what's,
the
importantly,
the
due
process,
clause
of
the
constitution-
and
I
suppose
that
brings
up
the
question
of
what
we're
talking
about
today.
G
It
seems
to
me
that
those
are
the
meet
that
standard
of
being
mandatory
and
being
narrow,
there's
so
few
of
them
and
they're
fairly
easy
to
understand
standards
and
guidelines.
It
depends
on
what
the
issuing
authority
says.
They
are
issuing
authority
might
be
the
city
council,
they
might
be
the
state
legislature,
they
might
be.
The
secretary
of
interior,
how
do
they
describe
how
those
standards
and
guidelines
apply?
G
G
As
america
was
beginning
to
understand
its
history
and
looking
at
the
some
of
the
symbols
of
the
american
republic,
the
kind
of
properties
that
were
designated
were
national
symbols
and
I'm
thinking
of
the
very
first
one,
which
would
be
the
mount
mount
vernon
saved
by
the
mount
vernon.
Ladies
association,
late
in
the
19th
century,
the
united
states
supreme
court
in
the
very
famous
gettysburg
decision,
said
that
patriotism
and
national
unity
were
made
the
acquisition
of
property
for
landmark
purposes,
a
public
use.
G
But
later
in
the
20th
century,
we
began
to
understand
that
is
much
more
involved
and
historic
districts
began
to
be
designated
and
the
criteria
began
to
be
thought
of
what
were
what
were
the
standards?
What
are
the
criteria
for
designating
historic
districts
and
with
the
passage
of
the
national,
historic
preservation
act
of
1966
and
kind
of
the
universal
adoption
of
all
of
the
standards?
G
At
that
time,
and
one
of
our
aldermen
came
before
the
commission
and
said
you
know:
you've
been
designating
all
these
landmarks
downtown
in
the
central
business
district,
but
my
ward,
which
is
on
the
northwest
side
of
the
city,
doesn't
have
one
and
I'm
asking
the
commission
to
designate
this
old
farmhouse
that
we
have
out
here
as
a
chicago
landmark,
and
I,
with
all
knowledge
that
I
had
said
well
that
thought
to
myself.
It
didn't
say
anything,
that's
a
stupid
idea.
We
can't
designate
a
landmark
just
because
your
ward
doesn't
have
one.
G
G
Recognize
aspects
of
the
history
of
all
our
peoples,
all
the
people
who
participate
in
our
democracy.
The
problem
is
that
the
criteria
were
sort
of
static
they
throughout
the
united
states.
Most
municipalities
have
adopted
the
six
seven,
eight
or
nine
standard
criteria,
most
of
which
apply
to
these
architectural
masterpieces
or
maybe
national
symbols
or
historic
districts,
and
they
haven't
changed
or
been
adopted
or
adapted
to
reach
the
cultural
aspects
of
minority
populations
or
previously
unrecognized
cultural
resources.
G
So
I'd
like
you
to
consider
this
building
like
sort
of
picked
out-
and
this
is
the
home
of
muddy
waters
and
of
course
everybody
recognizes
muddy
waters,
how
important
he
is
for
the
for
the
chicago
area,
and
this
is
sort
of
a
very
typical,
very
poor.
G
We
maintained
very
poor
condition,
building
in
the
in
the
lake
park
neighborhood
and
it's
a
place
where
muddy
waters
had
a
studio
where
he
practiced
in
the
decade
between
the
mid
60s
and
mid
70s
and
mid
70s.
He
sold
this
building
and
moved
elsewhere,
so
it
would
this
qualify
as
a
historic
landmark
under
the
typical
criteria,
and
so
when
I
talk
about
typical
criteria,
let's
look
at
the
muddy
waters
house
with
respect
to
the
evanston
criteria
and
let's
see
if
I
can
actually
find
it.
I
know
I've
got
it
here.
G
G
So
would
the
muddy
waters
house
as
a
example
of
diversity
and
inclusion,
something
that
might
not
have
previously
been
considered,
could
that
be
nominated
as
a
historic
landmark
under
the
standard
criteria
and
your
criteria
are
very,
very
familiar
and
the
wording
varies
from
municipality
to
municipality,
but
throughout
the
united
states
they're
pretty
much
the
same,
so
would
muddy
waters
house
fit?
G
Muddy
waters
really
is
important
to
the
culture
of
this
area
is
what's
the
association
with
muddy
waters?
Well,
the
activities
may
or
may
not
have
taken
place
or
involve
the
use
of
any
of
the
existing
improvements.
Well,
the
existing
improvements,
as
you
can
see,
are
in
a
fair
condition,
but
actually
in
this
case
we
know
that
muddy
waters
at
least
maintain
a
studio
in
this
building.
So
to
that
extent
you
could
make
a
very
strong
case
that
criteria.
G
G
I
think
number
eight
really
talks
about
districts,
but
it
does
represent
an
historic
cultural
theme,
perhaps
or
again,
by
districts
or
objects
that
may
or
may
not
be
contiguous,
so
it
might
be
a
stretch,
but
you
could
make
a
case
possibly
under
nine
and
establish
the
familiar
visual
feature
of
the
neighborhood
number
10.
G
G
So
I'm
not
sure
that
integrity
is
at
all
helpful,
because
anything
that
you
might
want
to
designate
presumably
has
some
association
with
a
cultural
or
historic
or
aesthetic
standard
or
value.
So
does
this
really
add
anything
to
talk
about
integrity?
On
the
one
hand,
it
could
limit
or
veto
inclusion
of
buildings,
because
they
don't
have
physical
integrity.
G
On
the
other
hand,
any
historic
landmark
wouldn't
be
before
the
commission,
unless
it
had
association
to
convey
its
historic
significance
and,
by
the
way
integrity
seems
to
be
a
fairly
important
aspect
of
evanston's
mission.
Because
you
are
told
to
issue
a
report
concerning
your
recommendation
to
the
city
council
with
not
only
an
explanation
of
the
significance.
I
I
G
Sorry,
okay,
we'll
move
to
the
next
slide,
oh
by
the
way
before
we
move
to
the
next
line,
I
did
have
just
a
very
brief
screenshot
of
some
alternate
criteria
that
I
found
throughout
the
country
that
may
broaden
the
criteria
to
allow
designation
of
previously
unrecognized
or
minority
or
diversity
kinds
of
cultural
resources.
G
So
these
are
somewhat
a
little
bit
broader
than
the
ones
we've
examined,
and
so,
if
it
ever
comes
a
time
to
redraft
the
evidence
and
criteria,
things
like
this
might
want
to
be
considered.
G
Now
the
title
of
this
slide
is
the
shift
of
theseus.
Everybody
has
heard
of
the
ship
of
theseus.
G
Nobody's
heard
of
okay:
well,
my
favorite
tv
show
among
the
many
many
automobile
restoration
shows
on
tv,
maybe
no
one
else,
watches
them,
but
they're,
three,
four
or
five
or
every
night.
There's
there's
several
and
the
host
finds
a
beat
up
car
like
this
1967
e-type
jaguar
and
after
a
little
bit
of
work
on
it.
Lo
and
behold,
what
do
they
have
so?
Here's
mike
brewer,
my
favorite,
show
and
wheeler
dealers
and
the
this
jag
that
they
found
and
here's
the
end
result
after
a
bit
of
work.
G
G
G
Can
you
say
that
after
several
hundred
years
in
the
replacement
of
everything
that
you
have
anything
that
has
any
integrity,
does
this
beautiful
jaguar
have
any
integrity,
any
relationship
to
the
original
that
it
came
from
whether
they
replace
the
fenders
the
floor
pan
the
engine,
the
running
gear?
Is
there
any
piece
of
this
new
jaguar
that
came
from
the
original?
G
G
When
I
was
with
the
chicago
landmark
commission,
there
was
this
beautiful
house
that
was
designed.
This
is
the
one
where
the
aldermen
did
successfully
allow
the
lobby
to
get
a
landmark
and
so
was
designated
by
the
commission
and,
unfortunately,
the
for
whatever
reason
the
owner
of
the
landmark
took
out
a
permit
city
issued
the
permit
by
mistake,
and
this
official
landmark
was
turned
into
timber,
and
so
my
assignment
was
to
sue
the
owner
and
recover.
Something.
And
the
question
is
what
could
I
recover?
G
What
was
the
loss
that
the
city
suffered
because
of
this,
that
dastardly
deed
and
one
of
the
things
that
I
toyed
with
was-
and
I
totally
rejected
out
of
hand-
was
forcing
the
owner
to
rebuild
the
building
in
its
as
a
original
form?
One
of
the
importance
of
the
buildings,
aside
from
its
aesthetic
qualities
and
its
age,
was
that
it
was
what
probably
one
of
the
first
examples
in
this
area
of
the
balloon
frame.
G
G
Engineering
students
or
any
student
could
go
through
there
and
take
a
look
at
granted.
The
replicated
construction
techniques,
but
you
could,
you
could
replicate
the
hand
hewn
nails,
you
could
replicate
the
dimension
lumber
and
it
might
be
worthwhile
project.
It
would
not
have
a
single
shred
of
integrity
under
integrity,
standard.
G
The
very
famous
battlefield
at
gettysburg-
it's
problematic,
we
don't
know-
I
mean,
what's
the
extent
of
it,
what
are
the
boundaries
of
such
a
thing?
But,
more
importantly,
what
is
there
to
preserve?
It's
a
landscape
to
my
knowledge,
no
extant
buildings,
no
fences,
no,
nothing,
that
of
the
built
environment.
At
least
that
would
indicate
anything
about
the
the
battlefield,
geographic
sites
that
that's
correct,
and
that
brings
up
the
problem
of
what
preservationists
are
calling
cultural
landscapes
landscapes.
G
I
used
to
call
them
parks
and
which
do
change
over
time,
the
plantings,
the
original
trees
and
jackson
park
or
grand
park,
or
whatever
the
landscape
ideas
were
they're,
long,
gone
landscapes,
change,
some
of
the
plantings
are
no
longer
appropriate
or
no
longer
available
or
disease-prone,
and
we
would
plant
them
with
something
else.
G
G
Yet,
of
course,
have
no
integrity
whatsoever
other
than
integrity
of
association,
so
the
in
chicago
the
site
of
fort
dearborn.
It's
got
a
marker
on
the
sidewalk,
probably
25
feet
above
the
surface
of
the
ground,
the
site
of
lincoln's
nomination
at
the
wigwam.
What
used
to
be
called
the
fort
dearborn
massacre?
G
G
One
of
the
funny
things
ironic,
I
guess,
is
that
you've
all
seen
the
u505
submarine
display
at
the
museum
of
science
and
industry,
and
I'm
wondering
how
many
people
know
that
it's
a
national
historic
landmark.
It's
not
just
on
the
national
register.
It
is
a
national
historic
landmark,
so
does
it
have
integrity?
G
It's
been
modified.
There's
been
holes
cut
in
the
side.
You
can
walk
in
from
the
through
the
hull
of
the
ship
as
no
one
ever
could,
when
it
was
in
service,
they've
removed
the
periscope
and
put
it
elsewhere,
they've
sure
restored
some
of
the
interior
features,
they've
removed
the
the
deck
guns,
they've
removed
the
nazi
symbolism,
and
I'm
not
saying
it
should
be
restored.
But
it's
not
there
anymore,
so
it's
certainly
been
modified
and,
more
importantly,
it's
out
of
context.
It's
in
a
basement
of
the
museum.
G
G
So
I'm
just
going
to
close
a
discussion
of
integrity
by
stating
that
I
just
don't
think
it's
helpful
to
have
an
integrity
standard
and
particularly
one
that
would
allow
the
veto
of
certain
historic
resources
that
are
no
longer
represent
in
physical
form,
what
they
were
again
under
the
under
the
shift
of
theseus
standard,
but
every
physical
building
particularly
suffers
deterioration
and
replacement,
and
nothing
is
in
the
exact
condition
or
had
maintains
integrity
from
where
it
was.
So.
G
Let
me
change
subjects
now
to
guidelines,
and
you
should
know
that
your
guidelines
and
there
are
plenty
apply
not
to
the
designation
but
to
the
preservation,
rehabilitation
and
restoration
and
particularly
certificates
of
appropriateness.
G
That
means
only
the
following
general
standards,
specific
design
guidelines
which
you
may
not
have,
except
for
windows
and
solar
panels
and
the
standards
included
in
subsection
e
of
this
section
and
which
is
the
secretary
standards
and
again
it's
referred
to
in
each
of
the
certificates
of
appropriation
that
might
be
before
the
commission
sanders.
Reconstruction.
F
They
are
very
similar
to
the
standards
for
the
criteria.
For
I'm
sorry,
the
standards
for
alteration,
construction,
relocation,
demolition,
so
there's
both
standards
were
based
on
the
secretary
of
standards
and
they
have
been
modified
over
time.
So
our
ordinance
has
not
kept
up
with
that
necessarily,
but
they
are
very
similar
in
in
terms
of
what
they
call
for.
G
There
are
four
or
perhaps
five,
so
let
me
see
if
we
can
find
so
I
mean
and
here's
a
a
topic
and
I'll
show
you
how
many
there
are,
but
I
did
want
to
show
you
what
the
this
is:
a
screenshot
from
the
national
park
service
and
we
talked
about
narrow
or
broad
guidelines,
and
I
just
wanted
to
show
you
what
the
guidelines
are
for
designation
of
properties
under
the
national
register
of
historic
places,
and
so
I
don't
know
how
many
there
are
a
couple
of
dozen
how
to
apply:
how
to
complete
guidelines
for
evaluating
cemeteries,
aids
to
navigation,
historic
aviation
properties.
G
G
What
is
the
meaning
of
the
of
this
set
of
guidelines,
and
this
is
for
the
for
the
application
of
the
criteria
for
placement
on
the
national
register?
What
does
it
say
about
it,
and
then
it
says
no
one
should
regard
this
bullet
as
the
only
appropriate
source
of
guidance
on
its
subject
or
interpret
it
rigidly.
What
is
the
meaning
of
it?
G
G
How
in
the
world
are
you
supposed
to
look
at
these
guidelines
when
they
tell
you
they
aren't
rigidly?
Aren't
rigidly
applied
they're,
not
the
only
source
and
there's
other
things
out
there
that
might
apply
it's
it's
a
conundrum
and,
as
a
lawyer
I
say
it
guidelines.
We
just
don't
know
how
to
apply
it.
If
I
were
a
property
owner,
I
would
look
at
this
and
said:
throw
up
my
hands
and
say
I
don't
know
what
applies.
G
So
here's
another
screenshot
out
of
the
national
park
service
and
it
tells
you
that
there
are
four
secretary
standards:
their
preservation,
rehabilitation,
restoration
and
reconstruction,
okay,
that
which
ones
apply.
There
is
also
a
fifth
one.
Another
there's
actually
two
standards
for
rehabilitation,
so
it
applies.
G
It
says
for
the
historic
tax
incentive
program
and
he
says
that
the
two
versions
of
the
rehabilitation
standards
can
convey
the
same
intent
and
provide
the
same
guidance
they
do,
although
they
are
not
work,
although
they
are
worded
slightly
differently
and
shall
replaces
will
in
the
1995
version,
I've
looked
at
the
two
versions
and
they
are
similar,
but
the
wording
is
different
and
are
we
to
ignore
the
fifth
standard
under
36
cfr?
Part
67.
G
G
What's
the
difference
between
preservation
and
rehabilitation?
I'm
not
an
expert,
so
maybe
the
experts
can
tell
me-
and
so
finally,
let
me
get
out
of
this
and
give
you
a
live
screenshot.
If
I
can.
A
G
So,
if
you
look
over,
on
the
left
hand
column,
you
have
standards
for
rehabilitation,
so
you
have
the
four
standards
plus
the
fifth
one,
the
the
double
one
for
standards
of
rehabilitation,
and
you
have
guidelines
that
tells
you
attempt
to
tell
you
how
those
how
the
standards
apply,
and
so
here's
one
I
love
guidelines
for
treatment.
Let's
see
that's
culture,
let's
see
if
I
can
find
it:
okay,
here's
the
guidelines
for
the
treatment
of
historic
properties.
So
this
incorporates
the
four.
G
G
A
total
of
more
than
240
pages
of
guidelines
for
each
of
these
standards
for
his
reconstructing
and
the
light
blue
restoration,
rehabilitation
and
preservation.
So
when
do
you
apply
rehabilitation?
When
do
you
apply
preservation?
I
don't
know
the
answer
to
that,
but
I'm
not
sure
they
do
the
standards
different
for
each
of
those.
I
don't
know
the
answer
to
that.
G
So
the
question
I
suppose
for
the
evenson
commission
is,
you
are
told
in
the
ordinance
to
consider
the
standards.
Do
you
ignore
the
guidelines?
How
do
you
apply
them
and
th?
This
is
something
for
which
I
don't
have
an
answer
and
maybe
nick
can
help
us
out
on
that.
So
that
concludes
my
remarks.
I
guess
I'm
in
under
the
deadline
and
if
you
have
any
questions,
I'm
happy
to
consider
them
and
again
thanks
very
much
for
having
me
and
letting
me
vent
on
what
I
think
of
standards
and
guidelines.
A
A
So
the
back
to
the
integrity
issue
for
cultural
and
historic
landmarks,
one
of
the
things
we
struggled
with
was
you
know
we
we
were
trying
to
focus
on
in
the
you
know:
evanston
black
community,
but
you
know
kind
of
honoring
places
of
historic
and
cultural
significance,
and
I
the
first
thing
that
came
before
us,
like
in
2018,
was
the
landmarking
of
the
foster
school,
which
we
did
landmark
based
on
historical
significance
to
the
community.
The
building
itself
had
been
large.
A
You
know
often
added
to
and
destroyed
by
fire.
So
there
was
little
not
not
much
historic
integrity,
but
there
was
at
least
a
little.
The
next
thing
we
did
is
aleka
and
I
worked
on
assisting
with
how
to
honor
and
preserve
african
american
historic
sites
in
evanston,
and
it
had
lots
of
historic
and
cultural
integrity.
A
I
think
one
of
the
things
we
struggled
with
in
these
is
yes,
we
do
want
to
honor
these
things
because
of
their
historic
and
cultural
integrity,
but
it
may
be
a
bad
thing
for
the
the
advocates
of
this,
because
then
they're
stuck
with
a
preservation
framework
which
focuses
on
maintaining
the
architectural
integrity
and
restricting
modifications
which
is
really
not
what
the
people
were
after
and
so
you
know.
On
the
one
hand,
we
have
a
community
we're
trying
to
do
outreach
to
who
feel
that
they
want
their
history
and
culture
honored.
A
G
You
might
want
to
consider
redrafting
the
criteria
to
allow
for
the
designation
of
cultural
resources
that
are
not
necessarily
tied
to
a
particular
bricks
and
mortar
building,
but
on
the
other
hand,
I
think
you
do
have
an
opportunity,
under
your
current
ordinance
to
under
the
rubric
of
association,
say
that
a
cultural
resource
like
that
does
have
association
and
there's
no
reason
that
the
ordinance
designating
it
could
say
that
no
permit
application
need
be
submitted
to
the
commission,
or
at
least
the
commission
shall
not
consider
the
current
improvements
or
something
of
that
sort
that
would
not
require
the
for
that
particular
landmark
would
not
require
a
review
of
the
physical
building.
D
So
I
was,
I
was
going
to
ask
a
similar
question
which
had
to
do
with
the
traditional
cultural
properties
national
register
guidelines
that
you
had
up,
because
I
wonder
if
there
are,
I
I
have
myself
personally
applied
the
traditional
cultural
properties
guidelines
to
a
project
in
the
past.
So
I'm
a
little
familiar
with
those,
and
I
wonder
if
there
is
some
way
or
there
are
any
criteria,
local
criteria
that
are
based
on
nutritional
cultural
properties,
idea
that
we
could
use
as
a
model
here
or
some
guidance.
D
I,
the
ones
that
you
had
up.
I
they
were
not
up
long
enough
for
me
to
see
whether
the
tcp
were
included,
but
that
might
help
us
because
those
don't
the
tcp,
doesn't
isn't
really
connected
to
architecture.
G
Well,
exactly,
and
so
you
I
think,
under
your
current
10
plus
one
criteria,
you
do
have
plenty
of
opportunities.
You
might
want
to
consider
a
review
of
expansion
modernizing
and
updating
the
criteria
to
make
it
much
more
apparent
to
everybody
what
what
you
want
to
designate
and
adopting
them
to
the
current
conditions.
A
J
Hi,
sorry,
I
was
going
to
write
this
in
the
chat
room,
but
I
saw
the
chat
was
disabled,
so
I
just
thought:
I'd
raise
my
hand
just
so
everyone
knows,
and
since
richard
used
the
muddy
waters
house
as
the
example
because
landmarks
illinois
is
very
involved
in
the
advocacy
efforts
around
the
muddy
waters
house,
I'm
working
directly
with
the
great
granddaughter
of
muddy
waters,
shonda
cooper,
who's,
the
owner
of
the
house
and
her
nonprofit
is
fundraising
to
do
the
rehabilitation
to
make
it
a
a
house
museum
and
a
place
open
to
the
public.
J
Ultimately
that
we
have
just
to
clarify
the
muddy
waters
house
actually
currently
is
a
contributing
protected
property
within
the
north
kenwood,
multiple
property
district,
so
muddy
waters,
house
already
technically,
has
the
the
protections
afforded
it
through
chicago
landmark.
Designation
already
has
to
go
through
permit
review
for
any
work
done
to
the
building
on
the
exterior
et
cetera.
J
We
in
discussions
with
the
staff
of
the
historic
preservation
division
of
the
city
decided
to
still
create
a
new
overlay,
individual
landmark
designation
for
the
building
that
is
actually
going
forward
at
the
commission
on
chicago
landmarks
meeting
on
thursday
june
3rd.
J
If
any
of
you
want
to
tune
into
it,
because
you
can
just
like-
I
am
here
with
your
meeting,
which
is
usually
at
12
45
on
june
3rd,
where
they
will
hear
that
nomination
and
what's
the
reason
we
all
agreed,
it
would
make
sense
is
because
the
multiple
property
historic
district
for
north
kenwood,
its
period
of
significance
ends
basically
at,
like
you
know,
1920
or
something
so
obviously,
now
the
most
important
period
of
history
associated
with
that
building
was
muddy
waters,
residency,
which
was
in
the
60s
into
the
70s
until
he
died,
and
he
made
changes
to
the
building.
J
J
Its
history
changed
its
its
aesthetic
changed
under
the
hands
of
its
most
famous
owner,
and
so
what
will
happen
in
this
new
designation?
That
you'll
hear
the
preliminary
vote
for
by
the
commission
on
on
the
3rd
of
june.
Is
they
will
spell
out
specifically
in
that
designation
report,
these
new
protected
elements
which,
in
the
traditional
world
of
historic
preservation,
a
commission
like
yours,
a
commission
like
the
commission
on
chicago
landmarks,
would
have
never
allowed
in
the
first
place
way
back
because
he
changed.
J
You
took
out
the
wood
structure
of
the
porch
and
replaced
it
with
a
lo.
You
know
with
with
metal
railings,
he
changed
the
door.
So
it's
a
really
interesting
discussion
from
the
perspective
of
how
we
have
to
continue
to
address
these
properties
going
forward
about
what
its
actual
period
of
significance
and
its
change
at
what
time
and
under
what
circumstances.
J
F
Thank
you,
lisa
anybody
else.
I
think
stuart.
E
I
mean
one
of
the
one
of
the
problems
that
I
have
with.
All
of
this
is
that
when
the
designation
is
as
a
cultural,
historic
landmark
that,
in
a
sense,
the
integrity
of
the
of
the
architecture
in
which
that
cultural
association
or
historic
event
is
associated
becomes
really
problematic.
I
I
really
liked
richard's
of
xke
jaguar,
and
you
know,
as
as
a
midpoint
on
the
continuum.
It
brings
to
mind
things
like
the
like.
E
The
reconstruction
of
williamsburg
things,
like
probably
the
the
reconstruction
or
the
rebuilding
anew
of
the
barcelona
pavilion
by
which
was
considered,
is
an
entirely
new
building,
but
was
considered
to
be,
or
is
considered
to
be
one
of
the
landmarks
of
20th
century
modernism,
and
then,
finally,
that
you
know
the
thing
that
came
to
mind
when
richard
was
speaking-
and
I
don't
even
know
how
you
would
categorize
this,
but
that,
but
one
of
the
prime
locations
of
the
shinto
religion,
which
is
the
ise
shrine
in
japan,
is
rebuilt
every.
E
D
I
just
wanted
to
point
out
that
the
traditional
cultural
properties
would
encompass
that
because
it
has
to
do
with
the
activity
that's
associated
with
the
site,
so
the
rebuilding
and
using
stewart's
excellent
example,
which
actually
occurred
to
me
too,
when
richard
was
talking,
would
you
know
like
that
that
the
rebuilding
activity
would
be
the
thing
that
is,
the
the
you
know
gives
it
significance?
If
that
makes
sense,.
D
H
One-
and
this
is
just
maybe
wishful
or
esoteric
or
whatever,
but
one
thing
that
I
always
or
that
I've
been
fighting
with
I
mean
years
ago
I
worked
within
the
federal
tax
credit
program,
and
so
we
were
using
the
standards
and
very
definitely
looking
just
at
the
buildings
you
know
and
now,
comparing
that
to
when
you're
working
in
as
a
historic
commission,
I
I
guess,
I
always
think
of
you
know
and
and
legally
I
guess
this
doesn't
exist.
Maybe
that's
my
question.
It's
like
kind
of
what
is
our
mission?
Why
do
we
exist?
H
You
know
you
know
is
if
it's
to
preserve
evanston's,
unique
character
in
yadda
yadda,
like
we
say
on
our
website.
What
does
that
mean?
Is
there
any?
I
guess
you
know
our
you
know.
H
Can
we
define
that
or
are
we
just
limited
to
the
various
standards,
because
if
our
mission
is
to
preserve
our
unique
character,
then
that
folds
in
all
the
cultural,
cultural
things
and
the
landscape
things
and
things
like
that,
and
is
there
a
way
of
doing
that
or
a
shift
to
doing
that
I
mean
I
guess
I
I
find
like
the
mission
at
where
we
are
very
different,
from
applying
preservation
and
in
different
scenarios.
I
I
think
that
a
historic
commission
and
a
small
city
level
or
any
city
level
is
like
you
know.
H
G
B
I
don't
I
don't
have
any
specific
questions
for
richard.
I
think
he
makes
a
lot
of
really
good
points.
I
I
will
you
know,
there's
that
section.
If,
if
you
were
to
nominate
something
and
designate
it
where
you
can
craft
your
own
guidelines
for
the
property,
I
think
that's
very
important
for
these
cultural
resources,
if
we
were
to
move
forward,
is
that
you
can
really
start
to
pinpoint
what's
important
about
it
and
what
the
review
process
in
the
future
should
be.
I
also
think
there's
some
good
examples.
B
Like
you
said
in
the
designating
ordinance,
you
could
say
that
it's
it's
maybe
it's
only
reviewed
for
like
demolition
review
that
you're
not
going
to
review
it
for
alteration
or
construction,
but
these
specific
properties
will
only
become
in
front
of
the
commission
if,
if
they're
proposed
to
be
demolished,
and
then
I
think
the
other
thing
is
there's
just
a
big
and
it
goes
back
kind
of
to
what
what
aleka
was
saying
and
what
mark
was
saying
is
that
I
don't.
B
I
don't
think
the
community
at
large
understands
fully
the
tools
that
they
have
and
the
tools
that
are
afforded
to
them
in
the
preservation
ordinance,
and,
I
think,
there's
a
misunderstanding
about
what
the
commission
does
and
what
the
ordinance
does
and
that
it's
entirely
regulatory
and
based
in
resource
management
and
that's
not
necessarily
true.
I
think
it
has
a
lot
more
potential
and
it
is
largely
maybe
up
to
carlos
and
myself,
but
also
the
the
commissioners
too,
to
just
speak.
F
Sure
anybody
else
would
like
to
continue
just
with
some
comments
of
the
things
that
we've
done
in
evanston,
so
richard.
I
think
you
have
a
great
point.
You
know
to
to
to
discuss
the
secretary
of
india's
standards,
but
the
way
the
commission
has
treated
those
is
when,
for
instance,
there's
a
situation
where
our
standards
may
not
cover
certain
aspects
of
a
domination,
and
then
we
refer
to
the
national
standards.
If
there's
anything
there,
that
will
help
the
commission
to
understand
better
so
from
when
it's
necessary.
F
We,
we
went
to
the
secretary
of
india's
standards.
You
know
to
see,
if
there's
anything
else,
that
we
can
use
in
our
report
for
purposes
of
line
magnetization
or
even
the
review
of
certain
projects
for
alteration
or
construction,
real
question
and
demolition.
So
the
commission
has
not
necessarily
ignored
that,
but
I
think
that
in
most
cases
the
the
standards
do
apply
and
and
we
can
resolve
the
situations
where
in
most
cases
are
approvable.
F
F
F
F
In
other
words,
if
you
have
a
population
that
has
a
diversity
in
in
different
ethnic
backgrounds-
and
let's
say
like
we're,
trying
to
do
the
same
like
with
the
commission
diversity,
but
we're
not
including
other
people,
and
that's
it's
not
because
of
lack
of
interest-
is
that
we
seem
to
hit
this
wall
where
people
who
would
like
to
reach
out
are
not
coming
forward
or
we're
not
big
enough
deep
enough
to
find
people
like
that.
So
it's
very
important
to
remember
that
our
intentions
are
spelled
out
in
the
ordinance.
F
We
just
have
to
recognize
that
certain
situations
limit
the
ability
to
include
everybody.
It's
not
that
we
don't
want
to
include
an
event
and
the
situation
of
recognizing
the
african-american
sites
and
individuals.
I
thought
it
was
a
great
initiative.
F
The
commission
was
involved
to
assist
the
people
that
were
interested
in
doing
that
ultimate
from
the
fifth
ward
and
dean
robinson
were
the
primary
two
people
that
we
work
with
the
one
thing
that
we
did
not
do
and
now
thinking.
F
Well,
you
just
said
richard
that
when
we
create
a
landmark
to
protect
it,
when
we
talk
about
the
guidelines,
the
guidelines
is
not
only
to
preserve,
but
you
know
we
can
say
this
building
could
be
modified
as
long
as
you
know,
we
preserve,
what's
the
most
part
of
the
history
of
the
building,
or
we
did
that
partially
with
the
school
that
we
designated
it.
It
was
out
there
so
many
times,
but
it
was
part
of
the
history
of
the
site
and
the
building
as
well.
F
So
we
integrated
how
the
history
changed
to
what
it
is
that
building
now,
but
I
think
we
had
to
be
more
alert
about
these
guidelines.
You
know:
do
we
and
it
will
depend
on
case-by-case
situation,
because
there
will
be
ones
that
have
good
integrity,
but
at
the
same
time,
buildings
are
built
in
a
way
that
they
will
not
always
last
forever,
and
things
will
change
over
time
and
we
are
allowing
alterations.
F
We
are
allowing
addition,
so
we
are
kind
of
making
that
building
somewhat
different.
It's
not
the
same
anymore
with
an
addition
with
a
window
that
is
extra
or
something
in
a
particular
elevation,
but
we're
looking
at
is
the
overall
appearance
that
it
changed.
So
much
that
you
don't
normally
recognize
that
building
yeah
the
same
situation
that
this
he
described
with
the
the
the
you
know
altering
a
building,
or
in
this
case
the
ship.
F
You
know
there
was
a
there
are
analogies
like
you
have
the
knife
one
time
the
owner
comes
and
change
the
blade
and
the
next
time
he
comes
change
the
handle.
So
do
you
have
the
knife?
The
same
knife
and
answer
is
no
might
look
the
same,
but
it's
not
the
same
match
right,
so
I
don't
think
we're
doing
that,
but
I
think
the
other
aspect
of
it
is
that-
and
I
heard
this
late
in
the
recent
few
days
as
well.
F
You
know
that
we
are
managing
change
rather
than
stopping
people
from
doing
things.
We're
managing,
so
we're
trying
to
contain
certain
things
that
might
be
detrimental
to
the
building
would
not
be
appropriate,
would
be
not
sensitive
but
we're
still
allowing
change.
So
that's
part
of
the
history
of
that
particular
building.
It
will
become
part
of
the
history
of
that
particular
building,
and
I
think
that
gives
a
little
more
latitude
and
not
be
so
close-minded
about
things
anyway.
That's
my
thoughts.
Anybody
else
have
anything
to
add
about
this
section
and
anybody
else
have
any
discussion.
D
I
have
just
a
very
quick
question
for
kane
carlos,
for
landmark
nominations
are
in
evanston.
Are
you
do
they?
Are
they
required
to
have
the
list
of
character,
defining
features.
F
D
I
mean
the
character,
defining
features
of
the
building
like
what
what
what
aspects
of
the
building
are
are
defined.
It's.
D
Right,
that's
what
I
was
asking
so
there
it
so
there's
always
a
list
of
the
character,
defining
features,
the
things
that
make
the
building
historic,
so
those
can
be
modified.
Those
can
be,
you
know,
determined
on
a
case-by-case
basis,
so
that
we
have
the
flexibility.
Okay,
that's
that's
all
that
was
asking.
F
Right
and
that's
important
to
remember
to
remember,
because
in
evanston
you
know,
we
have
the
lakes
historic
district
that
has
a
good
number
of
very
important
buildings
designed
by
import
architects.
There
are
mansions
some
of
them
and
then
we
have
in
the
west
side
of
evanston
very
modest
landmarks.
You
know
farmhouses
and
the
like,
so
you
cannot
necessarily
compare
well,
that's
not
a
landmark
like
richard
was
saying
at
the
beginning
of
his
presentation
about
someone
trying
to
nominate
a
building
in
a
particular
ward.
F
F
My
last
thought
is
that
sometimes,
when
people
are
not
necessarily
preservation-minded,
they
kind
of
attack
commissions
or
preservationists
when
they
say
well
now
everything
can
become
a
landmark.
So
you
don't
have
a
threshold
and
they
criticize,
because
you
know
it
seems
like
everything-
is
a
landmark
to
them.
But
that's
the
criticism
I
hear
from
time
to
time.
H
Okay
and
just
one
more
quick
question
or
clarification
in
historic
districts,
the
can
we
I
mean,
the
districts
have
criteria
or
not,
criteria
have
each
different
district
has
a
listing
of
why
that
district
is
nominated
and
why
it's
a
district
and
what,
within
that
district
we
want
to
preserve.
So
that
could
guide
us
to
to
more
cultural,
or
you
know.
F
Yes,
more
important
to
remember
is
that
both
the
lake
shore,
historic
district
and
the
rich
historic
district
were
originally
the
national
registered
historic
district.
So,
first
two
and
when
the
ordinance
was
adopted,
the
current
ordinance
in
1994
those
visitors
became
local
districts
with
no
further
review
or
make
it
more
local.
It
just
became
local,
as
is
so
you
know,
and
then
that's
why
we
have
the
resurvey
of
the
luxury
historic
district
in
19.
B
And
that
that
can
be
particularly
tricky
in
terms
of
how
these
districts
evolve
in
their
evolutionary
history.
I
know
that
occasionally
and
I'm
sure
carlos
can
talk
to
it
too,
but
someone
will
ask
us
why
they
can't
do
something
you
might
the
building's
listed
as
non-contributing
or
it's
not
within
the
period
of
significance,
but
both
the
ridge
and
the
lakeshore
districts.
You
know
they
have
very
significant
interventions
that
happened
in
the
50s
and
60s
that
might
be
listed
as
non-contributing.
B
Some
were
constructed
by
significant
architects,
so
I
I
think
we're
we're
lucky
in
a
way
that
our
ordinance
doesn't
discern.
It
doesn't
draw
a
line
between
how
to
treat
contributing
versus
non-contributing
structures,
but
it's
it's
it's
just
something
to
think
about.
It's
certainly
a
challenge
yeah,
and
it
goes
back
a
little
to
what
lisa
talked
about.
I
mean
we
wouldn't
necessarily
have
to
individually
landmark
those
properties
to
afford
them
the
same
protections
just
because
they're
outside
the
period
of
significance-
and
I
think
that's
important
what.
F
I
learned
is
that
when
the
volunteers
back
in
the
70s
were
putting
together
the
list
of
landmarks
to
the
national
register,
there
were
so
many
that
the
state
told
them.
No,
no
we're
not
going
to
do
individual
landmarking.
F
And
yes,
there
are
buildings
within
the
district
that
are
outside
the
period
of
significance
and
of
course,
they
are
subject
to
the
same
standards,
but
I
think
the
commission
is
and
staff
we.
We
know
what
the
ordinance
calls
for,
so
that
my
experience
has
been
that
if
a
building
is
not
contributing,
if
the
commission
would
not
put
the
same
weight
on
the
standards
and
every
time
that
happens,
they
always
say
we're
not
trying
to
set
a
precedent.
This
is
for
this
particular
building
that
is
not
contributing.
F
C
F
Building,
okay,
so
anybody
else
we
can
move
to
nick
and
I
will
let
kate
now
take
over.
F
B
Richard
I
I
had
the
opportunity
to
work
with
our
next
speaker
for
about
four
years
and
I
don't
wanna
say
he
taught
me
everything
I
know,
but
he
taught
me
maybe
the
majority
of
what
I
know.
So
our
next
speaker
is
nick
calgarisis
he's
a
principal
at
a
multi-disciplinary
planning
firm
in
chicago
called
the
lakota
group
and
nick
leads
their
preservation
and
comprehensive
plan
portfolios
before
he
started.
Working
at
the
lakota
group.
Nick
worked
for
the
national
trust
for
historic
preservation.
B
He
was
a
mainstream
manager
in
their
mainstream
program
and
from
there
take
it
away.
Nick.
I
Great
thanks
kade,
it's
a
pleasure
to
be
with
all
of
you
today,
it's
good
to
see
a
few
familiar
faces,
and
yes,
I
had
the
great
opportunity
to
work
with
with
kade
for
a
few
years,
we're
sad
to
see
him
go
to
evanston
you're
lucky
to
have
him
so
and
it's
good
to
see
richard
here
richard
and
I
are
actually
working
on
a
project
in
mesa
arizona.
I
So
we
know
richard-
and
I
know
each
other
very
well
and
I
had
the
distinct
pleasure
to
work
with
the
city
evanston
on
their
landmark
inventory
back
in
2015.
I
I
guess
so
so
I
know
evanston
fairly
well
so
for
today
I
just
have
a
very
you
know,
general
presentation
about
design
guidelines
and
why
communities
adopt
or
prepare
and
adopt
customized
design
guidelines
for
their
communities
and
why
it's
worthwhile
doing
that,
and
how
does
it
relate
to
the
secretary
of
interior
standards
or
other
standards
that
we
may
be
using
when
we
conduct
our
design
review
responsibilities
as
a
commission?
So
so
I
just
want
to
go
over
that
and
then
show
you
a
couple
of
examples
of
design
guidelines.
I
We've
worked
down
with
other
client
communities
in
the
past,
so
just
to
give
you
an
understanding
of
how
they're
put
together
what's
inside
them,
and
things
like
that.
So
I
did
not
get
a
chance
to
look
at
your
preservation
code
before
this
presentation.
So
hopefully
I'm
not
gonna,
you
know,
say
some
wrong
things
here,
but
I
do
want
to
build
on
what
richard
said
in
in
his
presentation
and
add
to
that
a
little
bit
more.
I
So
so,
let's,
let's
get
my
presentation
up
assume
everyone
could
see
that
let's
see
all
right.
Okay,
all
right,
just
to
talk
about
design
guidelines
and,
as
I've
said,
it's
a
document
that
many
communities
put
together
to
build
on
any
standards
that
they
have
adopted
for
design,
review
and
certificate
appropriateness
reviews.
I
You
know
there
are
many
different
types
of
design
guidelines
out
there
that
communities
adopt
and
there
are
design
outlets
specifically
for
historic
preservation,
that
communities
adopt.
And
you
know
when
communities
or
you
know,
clients
ask
me
you
know:
what's
the
difference
between
design
standards
and
guidelines,
not
to
kind
of
confuse
you
with
what
richard
talked
about
in
his
presentation.
I
But
this
is
what
I
explained
to
communities
you
know.
What's
the
difference
between
the
two
and
historical
to
me,
historic
preservation,
design
standards
are
common,
commonly
accepted
goals
for
the
treatment
of
historic
properties.
That's
the
way,
I
like
to
say
it.
It's
their
commonly
accepted
goals,
and
you
know
they're
in
different
industries.
There
are
standards
that
are
out
there
and
usually
there's
some
professional
body.
That's
going
to
come
up
with
standards
that
all
other
professionals
have
to
follow
in
the
case
of
historic
preservation.
I
It's
the
national
park
service
and
the
sec
department
of
interior
that
came
up
with
the
secretary
of
interior
standards
and
they
actually
go
back
a
ways
you
know
even
to
the
early
70s,
but
it
wasn't
until
1976
that
the
first
you
know
the
first
set
of
the
secretary
of
interior
standards
were
created
and
why
in
1976
is
when
the
us
congress
passed
the
tax
reform
act
of
1976,
introducing
the
historic
preservation
tax
credit
program.
I
So
the
first
generation
of
those
standards
were
in
1976,
but
it
wasn't
until
1985
that
the
standards
that
were
used
today
in
the
preservation
field
came
to
its
current
state.
You
know
basically,
and
so
in
1985,
is
when
the
department
of
interior,
the
national
park
service
came
out
with
what
are
four
sets
of
standards
for
historic
preservation.
I
There's
standards,
for
how
do
we
treat
properties,
historic
buildings
or
buildings
in
historic
districts
or
whatever
cultural
prop
resource
properties.
But
there
are
four
standards
and
I'm
not
going
to
go
into
all
of
them
in
this
presentation,
but
the
second
one.
The
standards
for
rehabilitation
is
the
one
that
is
very
common,
commonly
used
by
local
communities
as
their
set
design
standards.
I
I
I
The
standards
for
rehabilitation
is,
and
one
of
the
reasons
why
it's
commonly
used
is
that
it's
really
kind
of
focused
on
adapting
properties
for
the
future.
How
do
we
adapt
it
over
the
long
term,
so
you
could
have
a
big
commercial
building.
I
I
These
are
standards
for
how
to
restore
the
property
and
then
the
last
one
reconstruction
is,
if
you're
going
to
reconstruct
a
missing
building
or
a
missing
element
in
the
building.
This
provides
some
standards
for
that
now
there
are
communities.
I
come
across
a
few
of
them
once
in
a
while
that
use
all
four
of
these
standards
in
their
design
review.
Very
rare,
the
one
city
that
I
know
of
that
uses.
All
four
is
the
city
of
san
antonio.
I
They
use
all
four
of
them
in
their
design
review
but,
like
I
said,
I
think
in
most
cases,
most
communities
use
the
secretary
of
it's
the
standards
for
rehabilitation,
so
design
guidelines,
real
the
you
have
standards,
the
common
goals,
but
guidelines
to
me
are
the
preferred
treatments
to
meet
or
achieve
that
standard.
I
So
what
are
the
treatment
approaches
that
we
are
going
to
require
people
to
go
through
a
certificate
of
appropriate
review
that
they
have
to
meet
to
meet
a
standard?
So
guidelines
just
illustrate?
They
explain
they
describe.
How
do
we
meet
those
standards
so
just
for
an
instance
why
design
guidelines
need
to
be?
Why
we
need
to
have
design
guidelines.
I
I
I
So
communities
use
design
guidelines.
Obviously
the
first
bullet
point
is
the
most
common
purpose.
We
use
it
for
our
coa
review
process
for
landmarks
and
historic
districts.
That's
why
we
develop
it.
It's
mainly
the
use
for
our
commission,
but
they
can
be
used
for
other
purposes.
The
second
one
is,
you
may
have
an
incentive
program
locally,
a
facade
improvement
program
and
you
may
need
some
guidelines
to
help
decide
whether
or
not
a
project
is
appropriate
for
a
particular
building
in
exchange
for
getting
an
incentive
or
a
grant.
I
And
then
most
of
all
design
guidelines
should
be
an
accessible
document.
It
shouldn't
be
buried
in
an
ordinance
somewhere.
It
should
always
be
an
accessible
document
off
a
website
so
that
people
who
want
access
to
this
information
can
get
it
so
try
to
make
it
as
accessible
as
possible.
I
And
basically,
there
are
two
types
of
design
guidelines
for
historic
preservation:
one
they
could
be
geared
toward
individual
historic
district.
Maybe
you
know
a
downtown
a
downtown
historic
district
or
an
individual
neighborhood,
where
you
may
want
these
design
guidelines
to
address
particular
issues
found
in
those
districts.
So
and
then
you
can
have
a
comprehensive
set
of
design
guidelines
that
address
common
rehab
rehabilitation,
preservation,
issues
across
all
districts
and
landmarks,
and
so
the
second
one
is
more
common
in
a
lot
of
communities,
especially
especially
smaller
communities.
I
The
the
bigger
the
community,
you
could
have
lots
of
larger
cities
will
have
individual
design
guidelines
tailored
to
specific
historic.
I
Districts,
what's
inside
a
set
of
design
guidelines,
these
are
common
components
to
a
set
of
design
guidelines.
I
One
is
you
know:
you'll
have
a
section
that
describes
the
architecture
of
the
community,
the
historic
architecture
of
the
community.
You
could
have
information
about
individual
historic
districts.
I
Basically,
you
want
to
be
able
to
tell
the
reader
what's
special
about
your
historic
buildings.
What
are
some
of
the
common
architectural
features,
landscape
features
and
things
like
that,
and
then
this,
the
second
and
third
bullet
points
or
actually
the
fourth
bullet
points,
are
really
the
more
common
elements
of
a
set
of
design
guidelines.
I
I'll
talk
more
about
these
in
slides,
going
forward,
building
additions
for
commercial
and
residential
institutional
buildings
and
then
new
construction
within
historic
districts,
new
home,
you
know
new
commercial
building.
How
do
we
fit
it
in
within
a
historic
district
and
then
landscape
and
site
features
signage
and
increasingly
a
focus
on
green
design
in
historic
buildings?
How
to
incorporate
green
design
elements
and
then
the
last
a
couple
points
there.
You
may
have
a
set
of
definitions,
because
not
a
lot
of
people
are
going
to
understand
like
what
a
architrave
or
a
particle
means.
I
I
There
are
communities
that
really
kind
of
find
great.
They
fine-tune
what
you
can
do
to
non-contributing
properties,
so
so
anyway,
these
are
all
kind
of
like
basic
design,
basic
elements
of
design
guidelines.
I
I
How
do
we
rehabilitate
them
if
they
show
some
sign
of
wear
and
tear,
or
how
do
you
do
replacement
in
a
way
that
maintains
the
integrity
of
the
property?
And
the
same
thing
goes
for
architectural
features?
You
can
go
a
lot
of
design,
guidance
will
get
into
in
depth
and
how
do
you
treat
porches
roofs,
storefronts
ornamentation,
you
name
it
as
as
much
as
you
want
to
address
specific
features
found
in
your
historic
districts.
I
You
can
add
that
and
describe
it
as
much
as
you
can,
and
so
the
basic
thing
you
want
to
be
able
to
describe
in
design
guidelines
are
what
are
what
is
acceptable
and
what
is
not
acceptable
when
it
comes
to
building
materials
and
architectural
features
and
then
and
building
additions
and
new
construction
guidelines
will
get
into
things
like.
How
do
you
place
additions
or
new
construction
on
a
on
a
building
or
a
lot?
I
You
know,
and
then
you
can
get
into
a
lot
more
detail
on
particular
architectural
styles,
for
instance.
Adding
an
addition
to
a
craftsman.
Bungalow
is
going
to
be,
as
will
be
a
lot
different
than
adding
a
dash
in
addition
to
a
queen
anne
house.
So
how
do
you
address
placement
of
new
additions
and
then
getting
into
materials,
height,
massing
and
scale
fenestration,
and
then
garages
and
accessory
structures
and
again
what's
acceptable?
What's
not
acceptable
in
our
historic
districts?
I
And
so
that's
what
we're
trying
to
answer
in
design
guidelines
and
then
landscape
and
site
features
trees
in
general,
landscaping
paths,
patios,
fencing,
driveways
and
then
some
communities
will
get
into
sidewalks
in
the
public
right-of-way.
I
Not
so
much
that
the
commission
is
going
to
regulate
what
happens
in
the
public
right
of
way,
but
it
may
serve
as
a
some
guidance
and
management
to
your
public
works
department
and
how
to
treat
what
happened,
what
how
do
they
treat
the
public
right
away
in
historic
districts
and
then
again,
it's
what's
acceptable
and
what's
not
acceptable
in
this
in
these
areas
and
then
last
but
not
least,
signage.
You
know
where
are
they
placed
on
commercial
buildings?
I
What
materials
are
is
appropriate
and
then
addressing
historic
signage.
You
know
how
do
we
treat
and
maintain
historic
signage
if
we're
regulating
historic
signage
in
our
districts
and
again,
what's
acceptable
and
what's
not
acceptable,
so
that's
kind
of
my
short
presentation
on
design
guidelines.
I
I
just
wanted
to
kind
of
show
you
you
know
an
example
set
of
design
guidelines.
Let's
see,
let's
see,
let
me
see
if
I
get
this
get
this
up,
so
I'm
can
everybody
see
that
okay,
the
dekalb
I'm
just
gonna
show
a
couple
examples.
You
know,
I
think
the
one
benefit
of
historic
design
guidelines
is
being
able
to
illustrate
them
with
images
and
photos
to
explain
people.
You
know
how
how
the
design
guidelines
work
a
few
years
ago.
I
We
did
a
set
of
design
guidelines
for
downtown
dekalb,
dekalb
illinois
and
the
reason
why
they
wanted
a
set
of
design
guidelines.
I
Actually,
their
downtown
was
not
listed
in
the
national
register,
nor
was
it
a
local
historic
district,
but
they
developed
a
facade
improvement
program
where
they
wanted
to
emphasize
historic
preservation,
and
so
we
were
hired
to
develop
these
design
guidelines
and
that's
very
basic
and
straightforward
and
one
of
the
you
know
these
are
basically
how
a
set
of
design
lines
are.
I
So
so,
in
this
set
of
designers,
we
did
emphasize
quite
a
lot
on
what
the
existing
architecture
is,
and
so
we
had
an
extensive
chapter
on
styles
explaining
what
are
the
defining
features
of
each
of
these
styles,
a
lot
of
great
queen
and
commercial
in
in
downtown
dekalb,
that
we
wanted
to
point
out
to
people
and
a
lot
of
very
simple
buildings.
And
how
do
we
treat
some
of
the
more
simpler
vernacular
commercial
buildings
in
the
downtown?
I
I
Diversity
in
its
in
its
architecture,
going
all
the
way
into
the
1950s
and
60s
and
then
obviously
again,
here's
you
know
section
on
building
maintenance
and
exterior
building
maintenance
and
having
a
series
of
photographs
that
show
what
you
should
be
doing,
what
you
should
and
then
the
x's
are
what
you
should
not
be
doing,
and
it's
all
explained
in
the
text
so
and
again
all
on
building
materials.
How
do
we
repoint
masonry?
I
And
then
you
know
getting
diving
down
a
lot
more
on
store
fronts
in
this
commercial
area
so
anyway,
and
then
getting
it
to
signage
and
awnings
and
then
having
some
illustrations
that
show
where
signage
should
take
place
on
a
commercial
building
and
then
showing
you
know
basically
some
fenestration
infill
design
and
then
again
having
a
set
of
definitions.
I
I
I
We,
as
I
said
richard
and
I
are
actually
working
on
a
set
of
design
guidelines
for
mesa,
arizona
and
just
illustrating
dekalb,
was
focused
on
downtown.
This
is
a
set
of
design
guidelines
that
will
be
used
for
all
the
historic
districts
in
mesa.
So
one
of
the
things
I
just
wanted
to
point
out
in
the
set
of
designers
not
to
go
into
great
detail.
I
First
of
all,
I
want
to
say
this
is
a
draft,
so
I
probably
shouldn't
be
showing
this
set,
but
because
we're
going
to
be
revising
it,
but
we
do
have
a
section
on
treatment
options
in
here.
This
is
a
community
where
they
were
open
to
using
all
four
of
the
secretary
of
interior
standards,
preservation
all
the
way
through
reconstruction,
and
so
we
describe
the
standards
and
then
how
does
it
apply
in
design
review?
I
And
then
we
do
have
a
section
in
here
on
all
the
architecture
and
historic
properties
in
mesa.
So
we
have
a
good
history
on
the
development
of
mesa
and
then
we
get
into
individual
historic
districts
and
within
here
we
point
out
some
of
the
major
character
features
of
each
of
the
historic
districts.
I
Their
natural
features,
their
layout
lots
architectural
characteristics,
so
we
get
into
a
lot
of
detail
on
how
each
of
these
districts
their
their
main
features,
and
the
reason
being
is
that
in
mesa
they
wanted
us
to
really
explore
and
really
explore
those
character,
defining
features
in
the
districts
and
to
use
this
as
a
background
information
for
property
owners
or
developers
who
are
looking
to
try
to
figure
out
how
do
they
fit
in
new
construction
in
these
in
these
historic
districts.
I
C
I
have
a
question
I
liked
how
you
showed
the
two.
You
know
examples
like
one
was
more
specific
of
the
downtown.
One
was
more
comprehensive
with
everything
who
set
that
goal
for
you
when
you
were
creating
those
was
it
the
preservation.
I
Well,
each
community
we
work
with
is
different
how
they
want
to
approach
their
design
guidelines
in
mesa.
I
Well,
first
of
all,
mesa
is
totally
different
from
evanston
mesa
has
only
does
administrative
review
of
the
only
do
administrative
review
and
nothing
really
goes
up
to
their
commission,
so
we're
not
going
to
be
really
very
heavy
on.
You
know:
there's
not
a
very
heavy
regulatory
aspect
of
it
so,
but
just
to
answer
your
question,
it's
it.
Each
community
kind
of
tells
us
what
their
parameters
are
for
their
design
guidance
and
how
much
they
want.
How
much
in-depth
information
they
want.
How
much
design
guidelines
do
they
want?
I
What
are
some
specific
issues
that
they
they
want
addressed,
and
so
so
each
community
is
different.
You
know
there
are
some
communities
that
you
know
want
very
in-depth
design,
islands
and
some
that
want
very
short
and
brief
design
guidelines.
I
It
depends
in
in
mesa,
yes,
the
city
manager
and
the
mayor
are
involved
in
it.
They're
very
heavily
involved.
We're
currently
doing
a
set
of
design
guidelines
for
joliet
and
joliet
just
want
we're
just
working
with
their
staff
on
it
and
their
commission.
I
So
we
don't
think
it's
we're
gonna
get
any
more
involvement
on
the
city's
part
than
that,
so
it
just
depends
we're
doing
mesa
right
now
and
we
we
had
to
do
an
extensive
community
engagement
process
with
it
because
they
wanted
this
to
be
an
opportunity
to
talk
to
their
property
owners
in
their
historic
districts,
about
the
design
guidelines
and
what
the
intent
is,
and
so
we
had
to
do.
I
Actually,
we
did
like
three
months
of
interviews
with
people
just
to
talk
to
them
about
what
the
designers
are
going
to
be
about
and
how,
how
do
they
see
them
using
it
and
what
are
particular
issues
they're
facing
as
property
owners,
so
it
just
depends.
You
know
what
each
community
wants
to
do.
D
I
I
was
just
going
to
ask
a
quick
follow-up
question
about
your
interviews.
Did
the
property
owners
that
you
were
talking
to
did
they
know
what
the
character
defining
features
were
of
their
own
properties.
I
Some
did
and
some
didn't
you
know-
and
I
think
yeah
you
know
we,
the
city
side
is
an
opportunity
to
talk
to
people.
You
know
and
talk
about.
You
know
what's
what's
important,
what
type
of
architecture
they
have
and
why
it's
important
to
try
to
manage
what
happens
in
those
in
those
districts,
and
so
I
would
say
in
a
lot
of
cases,
we
did
open
some
eyes
to
people
about.
I
You
know
like
in
mesa.
The
ranch
home
is
really
important.
A
lot
of
you
know,
post
1950s
development
there
and
to
them
the
ranch
home's
pretty
ubiquitous,
there's
nothing
special
about
it,
but
it
is
there.
They
are
the
historic
neighborhoods
in
mesa
and
so
trying
to
explain
why
the
ranch
home
was
so
important
to
try
to
preserve.
It
did
open
up
some
eyes
on
property
owners,
and
then
there
are
property
owners
who
want
to
maintain.
You
know
investment
in
their
neighborhoods
and
then
there
are
property
owners
who
are
really
scared
about.
J
This
is
lisa
again
from
landmarks
illinois
and
thank
you
again
for
letting
me
eavesdrop
on
your
your
conversation
here,
because
it's
always
a
good
refresher
for
me
to
hear
richard
and
nick
as
well.
But
one
thing
I
wanted
to
point
out
that
is,
you
know.
Sometimes
an
interesting
scenario
is,
for
instance,
in
chicago
when
they
designated
the
fulton
market,
historic
district.
J
J
These
are
buildings
that
had
hard
uses,
and
so
one
thing
to
keep
in
mind
is
you
can
think
about
design
guidelines
in
the
future?
Is
they
work
with
developers
and
property
owners
in
that
district
based
on
these
design
guidelines?
J
But
those
design
guidelines
may
not
be
adaptable
to
any
pro
to
a
developer,
wanting
to
use
the
federal
historic
tax
credits.
So
when
the
city
had
that
district
designated,
they
also
had
it
certified
with
the
national
park
service,
so
that
a
developer
would
have
the
option
to
use
the
federal
historic
tax
credits.
J
But
there
may
be
definitely
things
that
the
city
would
accept
in
terms
of
changes
to
the
historic
buildings,
but
the
and
the
the
spo
and
the
park
service
absolutely
will
not.
So
it
has
to
be
made
very
clear
to
property
owners
and
in
these
types
of
public
meetings
we
may
be
coming
up
as
a
local
community,
with
some
very
adaptable
and
more
flexible
types
of
design
guidelines
for
this
very
specific
district,
because
we
think
it
makes
sense
and
you
can
apply
for
our
own
local
types
of
historic
incentives.
I
Yeah,
that's
an
excellent
point.
We
we
tried
it
well,
we
haven't
yet
with
mesa,
but
in
dekalb
we
did
consult
with
the
shipboard's
office.
You
know
we.
We
asked
them
to
take
a
look
at
it,
so
just
to
get
their
feedback.
So
that
is
a
thing
you
have
to
be
aware
of
those
in
those
state
and
federal
incentives.
F
F
We
let
them
know
that
if
they
are
with
the
thymus
illinois
assad
program
or
if
they
think
to
apply
for
the
assessment
freeze,
then
the
thing
they
need
to
do
is
restore
rather
than
replace,
unless
the
replacement
is
necessary.
F
But
the
ordinance
in
evanston
is
similar.
But
you
know
the
commission
has
been
flexible
to
some
extent
allowing
people
to
replace,
without
necessarily
digging
too
deep
into
the
restoration
aspect.
And
in
my
position
I
can
see
how
difficult
it
is
for
property
owners
to
always
be
able
to
pay
for
all
these
expensive
restoration
projects
so
yeah.
We
have
to
keep
that
in
mind
and
as
far
as
the
staff
level,
we
try
to
keep
the
owners
aware
of
the
difference
between
the
local
review
versus
the
state
or
in
this
case
flymer's
illinois.
J
No
correct,
I'm
glad
you
brought
that
up,
and
you
know,
I
think
always
probably
the
the
good
advice
to
give
owners
who
have
easements
is
to
come
to
us
first
for
the
review
before
your
commission,
knowing
that
our
our
easement
review
may
be
slightly
stricter
than.
J
J
And
keep
in
mind
too,
that
evanston
is
property
owners,
landmark
property
owners
of
commercial
buildings,
have
the
ability
to
use
class
l
in
evanston.
I
you
know,
I
don't
know
how
many
projects
there
have
been
now
in
evanston
to
date
that
have
used
class
l,
but
it
is
another
opportunity
to
also
encourage
landmarking
of
commercial
properties,
especially
in
your
downtown
or
smaller
commercial
districts,
that,
with
evanston
landmark
designation,
a
property
owner
can
consider
using
class
l
that
property
tax
incentive
is
part
of
a
a
rehabilitation.
J
J
J
Class
l
is
a
also
a
property
tax
incentive,
but
for
commercial
landmark
properties,
so
you
all
are
more
familiar
with
the
property
tax
assessment
freeze
program
for
single-family
homes
or
condominium
buildings
can
use
it
as
well,
which
does
go
through
state
historic
preservation,
office
review,
because
it
is
a
statewide
available
program,
even
though
the
incentive
ultimately
comes
from
the
county
assessor's
office.
J
You
know,
I
think
the
spending
threshold
again
is
like
a
25
of
the
market
value
assessed,
market
value
and
and
and
reclassifies
the
property
tax
to
a
residential
to
a
lower
rate
than
it
would
be
at
the
commercial
industrial
rate
and
and
it
and
again
it's
I
forget
what
the
year
period
is.
It
may
be
again
like
a
10
to
a
12
year
period
that
it's
reclassified,
so
it's
a
benefit
in
the
end
at
the
property
tax
level
used
in
chicago
all
the
time.
J
J
Just
you
know
to
take
a
look
at
that
incentive
and
remember
that
you
can
recommend
it
to
commercial
locally,
landmark
property
owners.
G
G
It's
a
reclassification,
as
lisa
said,
for
commercial
retail
property
from
40
down
to
10
percent.
So
essentially
it's
essentially
it's
a
it's:
a
reduction
of
75
percent
of
your
property
taxes
or
eight
years
with
a
proportionate
step
up
for
the
last
four
to
12
years.
It
doesn't
work
for
residential
property,
which
is
already
accessed
to
10
percent.
C
Is
this
whether
the
commercial
property
is
is
changed
into
residential
like
condos
and
stuff,
or
is
it
no
matter
the
use.
J
As
richard
just
pointed
out
in
that
particular
circumstance,
if
there
was
a
conversion
of
a
building
to
residential
use,
they're
going
to
go
down
to
that
residential
taxi
rate
anyway,
so
it
really
is
for
buildings
that
are
still
functioning
in
a
commercial
use,
so
industrial
retail
office
yeah.
Thank
you,
yeah.
That
makes
sense.
C
D
F
We
have
one
good
example:
that's
the
building,
that
is
on
davis
and
orington,
the
l-shaped
building
the
developer
landmarked
the
building
first
and
then
he
went
to
the
commission
with
alterations
to
the
north
and
west
elevation
of
the
l-shape.
There
was
a
building
that
used
to
be
a
commercial
building,
that
one
story
that
was
demolished
and
he
opened
that
as
a
plaza
and
then
he
applied
for
the
classification
l
because
he
restored
the
front
elevations
facing
north
and
west
of
the
l-shaped
building.
F
F
He
used
concrete
versus
instead
of
stone,
cladding
and
he
used
aluminum
windows
instead
of
steel
windows
and
the
aluminum
windows
resembled
the
steel
windows.
So
it
was,
you
know,
sort
of
the
difference
between
the
original
and
the
new,
but
the
newest
compatible
sympathetic
to
the
original
and
the
commission
at
the
end,
approved
that
and
then
also
they
applied
for
the
landmark
designation.
Then
they
applied
for
tax.
The
tax
credit.
J
Classification,
where
your
commission
reviewed
that
project
and
approved
it
and
he
was
able
to
get
the
class
out
incentive
now,
if
that
very
same
project,
had
gone
to
the
state
historic
preservation
office
for
review,
because
he
also
wanted
to
use
federal
historic
tax
credits.
I
don't
know
if
the
building's
on
the
national
register
or
not
that
it
may
not
have
made
the
approval
through
the
state
historic
preservation
office.
It
not.
You
know
we
don't
know.
F
Yes,
I
don't
know
you
have
the
same
experience,
but
in
the
recent
past,
when
we
had
the
opportunity
to
talk
to
someone
who
wants
a
commercial
building
in
downtown
evanston,
when
we
talk
about
the
clas
l,
they
tell
us
that
it
doesn't
pay
off
for
them.
For
whatever
reason
they
don't
explain,
but
they
say
it
would
be
more
expensive
to
do
it
than
the
benefit
we
get
back.
E
I
think
it's
worth
I.
I
just
think
it's
worth
pointing
out
that
that
the
new
facades
on
the
building
that
were
created
when
the
plaza
was
made
by
demoing
the
corner
of
the
building
are
a
beautiful
example
of
a
compatible
facade
that
reflects
the
existing
without
slavishly
duplicating
it.
C
F
J
Yeah
and
carlos-
I
don't
know,
I
think
it's
a
case-by-case
basis
and
and
who
knows
when
a
an
owner
makes
a
a
assumption
like
that,
what
it's
based
on,
if
it's,
if
it's
based
on
true
number
crunching
or
just
guessing,
you
know,
but
I
would
say
that
if
any
commissioners
or
staff
want
to
understand
the
class
l
incentive
better,
that
diana
cuvallo,
who
runs
the
historic
preservation,
division
for
the
the
city
of
chicago's,
department
of
planning
and
development
and
the
commission
on
chicago
landmarks,
is
an
excellent
resource.
J
F
J
F
I
think
kay
has
been
interested
in
doing
something
like
that,
since
I
remember
talking
about
preservation,
he's
very
curious
about
gathering
information
on
buildings
that
would
be
eligible,
and
I
think
that
would
be
a
good
thing
because
in
the
you
know
again
talking
about
my
experience
with
the
city
is
that
when
a
nomination
comes
forward
when
something
is
going
to
be
demolished
or
something
one
of
the
things
that
the
the
opponents
will
say
is
well.
F
H
G
Well,
yeah,
but
it
might
be-
and
I'm
not
certain
about
this
if
it
was
condominiumized,
so
they
were
different
ownership
parcels.
Maybe
you
can
make
a
case
that
the
commercial
part
would
be
eligible
for
class,
correct.
J
G
B
B
But
but
then
the
property
owner
is
kind
of
caught
in
this
in
between
where
they
have
a
separate
requirement
from
the
state,
for
example,
for
maybe
replacing
in
wood,
where
our
ordnance
might
be
able
to
replacing
kind
with
vinyl
or
aluminum,
so
they'll
pay
out
for
the
the
vinyl,
but
then
the
state
won't
sign
off
on
it.
That's
really
the
only
time
I've
seen
that
conflict.
J
B
J
Well,
that's
a
worthwhile
conversation
to
have
with
anthony
robano
and
carol
dyson
and
staff.
F
Well,
our
experience
is
recent
experience.
We
have
the
health
store
last
year
that
damaged
thousands
of
roofs
and
so
people
who
had
the
tile
ceramic
tile
they
they
want
to
replace
with
the
same,
but
the
insurance
would
not
pay
for.
F
B
One
thing
one
point
nick
made
that
I
think
is
really
important
is
that
the
guidelines
are
not
exclusively
for
the
use
of
the
commission
and
the
commissioners.
I
think
there's
a
lot
of
knowledge
and
understanding
of
our
standards
that
is
really
institutionalized
with
whether
it's
carlos
and
myself
or
the
commissioners,
and
I
think
that
the
guidelines
that
we
don't
currently
have,
they
really
help
to
just
disseminate
that
information
and
make
it
widely
available,
and
I
think
the
result
is
that
people
know
what
the
expectations
are
when
they
come
in
for
permit,
which
is
helpful.
B
I
think
that
you'll
get
better
applications
because
of
that
and
in
theory,
it
should
make
the
review
process
faster
for
you
as
as
commissioners,
and
then
I
think
that
what
what
this
does
is
it
then
ties
into
some
of
what
richard
was
talking
about
in
that
discussion.
Is
that
it?
It
frees
up
potentially
time
that
is
spent
primarily
now
by
the
commission
on
on
what
I
would
call
resource
management
to
explore
additional
aspects
of
a
preservation
program
like
looking
at
nominating
cultural
sites
or
education
and
outreach
things
like
that,
so
they
are.
H
So
that
is
a
good
point
or
question:
is
you
know
how
much
in
these
guidelines
and
stuff?
How
much
are
the
you
know
like
the
planning
and
zoning
commissions
interviewed
and
consulted
before
the
guy?
These
guidelines?
Are,
you
know,
to
be
on
kind
of
on
board
or
see
where
there
may
be
conflicts?
H
I
It
again,
it
kind
of
varies
from
client
community
to
client
community
in
mesa.
We
had
to
talk
to
the
their
their
planning
commission
because
they
oversee,
and
you
know,
bigger
cities.
You
have
a
little
bit
more
complicated
land
use
regulations
in
mesa
and
they're
downtown.
They
have
a
form
based
code
overlay
in
their
in
their
downtown,
so
we
had
to
kind
of
work
with
the
at
least
understand
with
the
commission.
How
did
this?
How
does
the
design
guidelines
fit
in
with
their
form
based
code
in
their
downtown?
So
it
depends.
I
You
know,
yeah.
B
I
think
it's,
I
think
it's
a
really
good
point
that
you
bring
up.
I
think
that
there's
obviously
examples
in
in
all
of
our
historic
districts
where
they
were
it's
a
built
environment
that
was
constructed
and
predates
are
zoning
ordinance
and
so
there's
a
lot
of
things
that
you
may
recommend
in
the
guidelines
that
may
not
necessarily
align
with
the
zoning
code-
and
I
don't
know
if
that's
something
you
can
spell
out
in
the
design
guidelines.
I
would.
B
I
would
say
that
if
it
necessitated
like
someone
to
go
to
the
zoning
board
or
something
I
would
imagine
that
the
guidelines
could
be
used
as
justification
for
some
of
these
requests,
because
we
don't
have.
We
have
some
flexibility
in
our
building
code.
There's
not
a
lot
of
flexibility
in
terms
of
historic
properties.
In
the
zoning
code,
we
don't
have
a
separate
adaptive
use
code
or
a
separate
historic
zoning
code.
F
Well,
the
zoning
ordinance
does
refer
repeatedly
to
the
preservation
ordinance
in
historic
districts
and
affecting
lyme
attacks,
so
basically
say
for
these
situations
or
may
not
be
zoning
compliant.
You
go
to
the
zoning
to
preservation,
ordinance
and
our
review
by
the
zoning
ordinances
advisory
of
zoning
cases.
That,
in
this
case,
would
be
major.
C
F
Variations
for
instance,
but
when
we're
talking
about
historic
preservation,
if
we're
talking
about
restoration,
rehabilitation,
we're
not
necessarily
making
the
zoning
aspect
of
it
worst
then
less
compliant,
and
I
think
that's
some
provision
as
far
as
height
for
accessory
structures.
Okay,
you
probably
are
familiar
with
that
more
than
I
am
where
the
height
of
the
the
barn
is
higher
than
the
allowable
height
for
a
typical
garage
like
that.
F
C
And
I
have
a
question
just
you
know,
I
think
one
of
the
real
important
things
about
design
guidelines
is
making
sure
that
the
rest,
the
residents
and
the
building
owners,
especially
the
homeowners,
know
about
them
and
are,
and
can
you
know,
familiarize
themselves
when
they
need
to
when,
when
a
project
when
they're
considering
a
project?
But
you
know
we've
seen,
we've
seen
it
when
the
homeowners,
you
know
are
there
and
they
just
bought
their
house
and
they're
just
now,
gonna
redo.
C
All
the
windows
on
you
know
the
whole
entire
house
and,
oh,
that,
all
of
a
sudden,
then
they
heard
about
a
preservation
review,
and
so
I'm
just
curious
with
with
your
experience
nationwide,
with
all
the
different
districts.
How
are
they
reaching
out
and
reaching
out
to
the
communities
and
disseminating
the
design
guidelines?
I
know
we
have
ours
online
and
and
whatnot,
but
just
even
especially
just
that
new
homeowner
like
how.
How
do
we
get
the
design
guidelines?
I
I
know
it's
a
big
city,
but
I
use
them
as
a
model
because
they,
you
know
they
developed
a
whole
new
set
of
design
islands
about
eight
seven
or
eight
years
ago,
and
you
know
since
then
they've
what
they
what
they
like
to
do,
and
I
I
kind
of
like
this
approach-
is
they
they
do
a
lot
of
educational
workshops
and
particular
aspects
of
property,
maintenance
and
rehabilitation.
I
You
know-
and
you
know,
how
do
we,
how
do
you
restore
historic
window-
and
you
know-
and
things
like
that-
and
they
use
as
an
opportunity
to
kind
of
explain
the
design
guidelines?
And
you
know,
why
is
a
support?
Why
is
it
important
to
keep
historic
windows
and
how
do
you
do
compatible
editions
and
things
like
that,
so
they
they
kind
of
use
this
educational?
I
Yeah
and
the
second
thing
is
they
have
a
really
strong
relationship
with
neighborhood
associations.
I
I
don't
know
offhand,
but
I
have
to
think
a
majority
of
their
historic
districts.
I
G
I
I
think
san
antonio
probably
does
it
better
than
most
most
communities
out
there
and
how
to
get
that
information
out.
So.
J
Yeah,
it's
just
gonna,
say
shannon
miller
who's,
the
the
head
of
the
san
antonio
historic
preservation
office.
She
was
a
speaker
for
us
at
landmarks
illinois
last
year
as
part
of
our
snapshots
lecture
series,
and
if
you
go
to
our
website
under
our
events,
page
and
then
scroll
down
to
our
snapshot
section,
we
have
a
video
that
you
can
watch
of
her
presentation,
which
was
actually
more
to
richard's
presentation
earlier,
was
on
their
cultural
landmarks
program
and
how
they
addressed
the
issue
of
of
landmarking
and
protecting
places
of
cultural
significance.
C
J
D
Yeah,
so
when
I
worked
in
preservation
in
san
francisco
before
we
moved
here,
we
asked
the
same
question
about
how
to
educate
people,
and
our
approach
was
to
talk
to
realtors.
D
Yeah
so
I
developed
a
whole
program
of
working
with
realtors
to
try
to
help
people,
because
my
job
at
the
firm
it
was
an
architecture
firm
that
specializes
in
historic
preservation.
My
job
was
dance
phone,
so
I
always
talked
to
these
property
owners
who
were
had
just
bought.
These
buildings
had
gone
to
the
city
and
had
been
informed
there.
So
I
was
in
the
mode
of
constantly
having
to
calm
people
down
because
they
were
calling
in
crisis
mode,
and
I
was
very
empathetic
and
so
after
a
while,
I
heard
the
same
thing.
D
Why
didn't
my
realtor
tell
me
this
so
so
that's
part
of
my
background
and
I
I
personally
felt
after
a
while
that
it
was
starting
to
be
successful.
We
moved
here,
so
I
can't
tell
you.
D
The
end
of
the
story-
I
just
told
you
the
good
bits,
but
but
anyway
I
can
tell
you
my
personal
experience
here
this
house
that
I'm
sitting
in
is
a
city
of
evanston
landmark
and
we
bought
it
last
year
and
we
knew
to
approach
kate
and
carlos
when
we
were
in
the
middle
of
buying
it.
So
thank
you
to
kade
and
carlos
who
met
with
us
the
week.
The
the.
D
C
D
I
That's
an
excellent
point
and
again
I'm
gonna
throw
out
san
antonio
again
because
they
have
their
preservation
office
established
a
certification
program
for
realtors.
C
I
So
and
it's
and
I
think
they
do
like
once
or
twice
a
year
training
and
if
you're
a
realtor
and
you
sit
through
it,
you
get
certified
by
the
city.
I
don't
know
what
the
certification
says
or
stands
for,
but
but
yeah
they've.
That's
that's
an
excellent
point.
I
think
other
communities
have
done
that
too.
G
I
B
G
I
think
chicago
records
districts
as
well
as
landmarks,
so
no
one
has
any
question
when
you're
buying
a
property,
that's
going
to
show
up
on
the
title
report.
Well,.
F
F
We
have
over
the
years
spoken
giving
presentations
to
realtors
on
monday
mornings
when
they
have
the
meetings
before
they
go
out
for
the
week.
I
was
fortunate
to
work
with
the
managers
of
offices
when
I
contact
them
about
this
solution
for
the
problem,
because
some
of
the
clients
didn't
know-
or
they
didn't
know,
we've
done
it
over
the
years,
not
every
single
year,
but
over
the
years,
and
the
result
of
that
is
that
now
the
realtors
call
our
office.
F
B
I
J
I
J
I
A
I
It's
in
your
gis
system,
but
it
may
not
be
the
first
thing
that
some
people
will
look
at
so
I
mean
a
lot
of
communities.
Now
are
digitizing
their
survey
information
and
making
that
more
accessible.
So
I
mean
there
may
be
people
who
just
want
it.
You
know,
would
go
to
a
historic
preservation
website.
First,
you
know
so
having
your
survey.
Information
digitized
is
important.
I
know
lakota,
we
do.
I
We
do
survey
work
and
we
we
we
use
digital
platforms
for
it
and
we
hear
back
from
the
communities
that
it's
one
of
the
most
accessed
pieces
of
information
that
they
have
off
their
website
and
we
hear
that
developers
always
like
to
look
for
the
non-contributing
properties
on
those
lists.
So
there's
another
side
to
it,
but.
C
D
I
should
I
should
say
that
it's
not
on
zillow
yet,
which
is
the
place
where
so
many
people
buy,
find
their
homes
yeah.
But
you
know
I
I
don't
know
what's
involved
in
that,
but
anyway,
that's
that's
from
I
mean
mls
would
be
a
great
would
be
that's
a
great
idea.
E
G
E
J
Well,
we
did.
We
did
do
a
realtor
training
program
in
wellmatte
a
couple
years
ago
and
you
know
where
carlos,
I
think
you
attended
and
who
whoever
were
some
of
the
commissioners
at
the
time,
but
that's
now
already
going
on.
You
know
seven
eight
years
ago,
so
yeah
I
mean
we
we've.
We've
talked
about
it
before
and
point
well
taken.
F
Okay,
thank
you
so
much
everyone.
Unless
there's
another
question
or
comment,
I
think
that's
been
very
fruitful
for
all
of
us
to
hear
from
two
qualified
professionals
with
experience
in
their
own
fields
to
share
their
ideas
and
experiences,
and
I'm
glad
that
we
have
two
new
commissioners
that
obviously
I
believe
now
they
had
even
more
of
the
flavor
of
what
you
know
expected
from
us
as
commissioners
and
staff,
and
we
look
forward
to
continue
doing
this
type
of
programming.
F
I
think
that,
as
far
as
education,
we
probably
need
to
think
about
what
can
we
do
for
the
rest
of
the
community?
This
type
of
presentations
people
can
join
us
any
last
thoughts,
richard
or
nick.
F
Okay,
so
we'll
keep
you
updated,
I
guess
one
of
the
things
I've
been
working
in
the
last
couple
months
now,
it's
the
director
of
department
has
asked
me
to
start
developing
the
design
guidelines
for
the
city
for
the
preservation
commission
and
trying
to
put
a
team
together,
evanston
residents.
F
I
have
some
challenges
like
diversity
of
the
team
and
whether
they
be
only
evanston
residents
or
professionals.
Eventually,
we're
gonna
know
how
many
people
and
right
now
is
it's
all
in
in
the
preliminary
stages.
F
We
are
thinking
whether
we're
gonna
tap
into
some
funding
through
the
state
or
not,
or
we're
going
to
do
it
on
our
own
and
whether
we're
going
to
have
a
comprehensive
set
of
guidelines
versus
you
know
for
historic
districts
individually
and
obviously
that
will
be
a
long-term
type
of
project
versus
many
competency
will
be
faster
because
then
you
you
put
together
what
is
most
common.
F
Our
the
districts
are
primarily
residential.
We
don't
have
a
downtown
historic
district,
so
that
kind
of
makes
it
a
little
bit
easier
for
us
to
develop
the
guidelines.
F
So
once
we
launch
the
program,
my
thought
is
to
come
to
the
commission
from
time
to
time
to
show
you
our
progress
and
get
your
comments,
but
I
need
to
sort
out
with
the
higher
authorities.
You
know
how
they
want
me
to
approach
this.
My
intent
is
to
maintain
the
commission
informed
and
get
your
input
because
then
eventually,
you're
going
to
be
the
ones
enforcing
or
administering
the
guidelines.
So
I
have
my
pulse
and
the
commission.
F
My
experience,
working
with
the
commission
and
the
different
people
have
been
appointed.
It
kind
of
gives
me.
I
think,
idea
how
I'd
like
to
approach
this,
I'm
just
hopeful
that
we
will
be
able
to
come
up
with
a
plan
that
will
be
endorsed
by
the
commission
and
we
move
forward
on
that,
and
obviously
kate
is
here
to
help
us
with
the
monthly
meetings
and
he's
doing
all
the
hard
work
now
and
I'm
trying
to
help
him
too.
When
I
can,
I
think
we
have
a
very
good
relationship
together.
F
We
complement
each
other
very
well
he's
much
interested
and
genuinely
interested
about
historical
preservation.
I'm
very
glad
that
he's
in
our
team
and
I
look
forward
to
continue
working
with
him
and
we
will
look
forward
to
work
with
the
commission
as
well.
So
thank
you
very
much
kate
for
putting
together
this
retreat
for
the
commission.
Thank
you
for
attending.