City of Portsmouth, New Hampshire Conservation Commission, 9 Mar 2022

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3.9.2022 Conservation Commission

A

Recording in progress.

B

B

um I want to welcome everybody to the march 9 2022, regular conservation, commission.

B

Meeting for portsmouth uh there are some members: well, there's some applicants and.

B

Attendees maybe on soon, but we have all our members here.

B

Right there there might be some presentations on zoom. That's right, there's none there! Yet.

B

Okay, so we'll get started first item on the agenda is approval of the minutes from february 9.

B

2022. anybody want to make a motion alison. um I I have a correction. I will make a motion to accept.

C

The minutes, but um on page two paragraph, eight, um the second line it says uh mr white responded that.

C

They dry well, and it should be the drywell, and that was really all I got.

B

Anybody else no, um I had something um on page six, where it says ms gindel, it's with the.

D

Fifth, um paragraph down um about removing the and I appreciated the removing of the asphalt.

D

From the buffer and questioned if they knew the square footage, um the total square footage.

D

I don't remember asking about the square footage, so somebody asked that question instead of me.

D

uh Didn't want to steal credit, but that's it I'm fine if it stays like that, but.

A

Thank you and I get nervous when I'm talking here anyway,.

B

And I just had one comment on also on page two. um Second to last paragraph.

B

Third line down says chairman mcmillan commented that if the kept it on site as well.

C

If the soil was kept on site, yeah.

B

Anybody want a second.

B

Thank you, abby. All those in favor.

B

All those opposed, I'm gonna abstain. Since I wasn't here, okay, one abstention. Thank you.

B

Motion passes next item on the agenda. Is the wetland conditional use permit new business 400 little harbor roads.

B

For the society, protection of new hampshire forest um anybody here to speak to that.

A

Oh wait, a minute, sorry hold on just a minute. Sorry eric. um They asked their fourth on the agenda in.

A

Case anybody's here to watch it they're asked to postpone. So if you could get a motion to postpone.

A

That to the next meeting in case anybody's here to see it, we won't make them wait around okay,.

B

And they're definitely postponing yeah. That's requested postponement, which one is that peter 33.

C

I'll make a motion that we uh postpone 333 borthwick avenue at the request of the applicant.

C

Until the uh april meeting I'll second, that second is jess all those in favor.

B

All those opposed motion passes. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, now.

B

Getting my steps in.

E

Good afternoon for the record eric weinreid with altus engineering, I also have with with.

E

Me today is uh carl murphy from the society, as well as marissa sewell from our office.

E

The project is uh for the society of the protection in new hampshire, foreign.

E

400 little harbor road tax map, 203 lot, 8.

E

The property was owned prior to the society by billion chet knoll on the society.

E

Obtained in around 2000, it was the kerry cottage. I think everyone.

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In the city is very much aware of this parcel.

E

The cottage itself went into uh disrepair quite a number of years ago and was slated to be raised.

E

And um through fortunately, benefactors stepped forward and the building was renovated and.

E

Restored municipal water was brought down to the site with on sprinkler to the uh carry cottage and.

E

I assume you've all been down there and seen what a great restoration that.

E

That has occurred there right around the same time. We were permitting that.

E

We also permitted a new septic system for the carriage house. That system was installed on.

E

I believe in the spring of 2020 and the society renovated the carriage house at that point. So.

E

It could be used for um the gundala summer programs and other youth programs, as well as you.

E

uh Used by the public, um but there are no public restrooms on on the grounds and I'm.

E

Excuse me, and I and the grounds are heavily used by the public. I I think that really with covid on.

E

And people just really getting out and walking they do that on loop through on little harbor.

E

Chapel down through on government mansion, then through the site and back up and so by providing.

E

These restrooms, it really does provide a public benefit. We are proposing a two on stall restroom.

E

So here's the existing carriage house, uh just to the north of it, is where we're proposing the small.

E

On standalone building that will be have its access on of utilities from the existing.

E

Carriage house into the new septic system on and the building will be about 81.7 feet away from.

E

The wetland in a previously disturbed area, we're proposing stone, drip edges around the.

E

Exterior of the building on to mitigate any impact from the small amount of 413 square feet of.

E

New impervious and we're also having a covered area on there with a bench so that people could.

E

Inclement weather, wait or uh wait out the weather or just wait for their friends who are using the.

E

Facility the system was designed with a capacity of 300 gallons per day. It's a pretty minimal use.

E

And what I was looking at just running some quick numbers is that with low flow, toilets and.

E

Hand washing that's about 160 uses per day, so we're never going to be near that, but.

E

It was we that's the minimum design flow, so we're not projecting that type of use.

E

uh Just a minimal impact in the lower left hand corner you can see on a blow up of where.

E

Our temporary and permanent impacts are I'm out of words for the moment.

B

Here are you um yes, allison question eric just tell me why you can't rotate that 90 degrees.

E

um There was a bunch of reasons I mean there's, there's a lot of ledge out there, so we're trying.

E

To minimize the ledge impacts on, and also just the aesthetics of it, that a lower impact and following.

E

Into the building lines of the existing building is really what we're looking at.

E

81.7 feet away we're further away on from the wetland than the existing building in.

E

On the propane tank and and other features that are out there.

B

Thank you. Yes, samantha has the septic.

F

Already been installed, yes, um that was installed in spring of 2020 right.

F

And were trees removed for that and our tree is going to be removed for this.

F

Portion there were no trees removed for that before you can see the.

E

Tree line over here, and so that we stayed out of the tree, there is some scrub growth.

E

In the area, because that's all disturbed in area but there's some scrub growth, I don't think.

E

There's anything more than an inch or two diameter. Okay. Thank you questions. Yes, I I can you hear me.

C

I I appreciate the idea of low-flow toilets. I wonder if you've investigated any other models for.

F

Toilets such as compost posting toilets that other organizations use. We had talked.

E

About that, and I think the consensus from the society was to to use flush toilets because.

E

There will be hand washing and so forth, so be go through the exercise of having composting toilets.

E

When you're going to have hand washing and you're having children out there, it just made more sense.

B

um Yes, uh when I went out there, it looked like the toilets are going basically, where there's.

D

That sort of parking before the official parking is that sort of it's like between the little road.

D

Up and then the septic and there's sort of a muddy, gravelly kind of is that is that we're.

D

Sorry, no is that kind of bloody gravely no on this is the parking area. That's the first one. You see.

E

There's a ledge outcrop here and then there's the more formal parking in front of the building. It is.

E

Just only five feet off the edge of that building it it's right. Next to the building.

D

Yeah and where I'm talking about, isn't sort of an official park- and I think it's almost like a.

D

Turnaround kind of, but anyway, okay, I just wanted the visuals, I'm sure yeah other questions.

B

I I just had a question about invasive species. I know that that's a huge issue on that property.

B

So is there any that you're concerned about at the site itself, even just on a small scale and if.

B

And what kind of precautions will be taken, or anything like that?.

E

When we did the septic system, they did cut back the.

E

I can't japanese knot weed that was in this area and I think they've been continuing to.

E

Keep that cut back on, but the property is it's just full of it in other areas and that we can.

E

Continue to maintain this area, but to try to eradicate it from the whole site would be.

E

Just impossible, so is there any kind of have you identified any others on.

B

That, where the location's going, then no not in that area, do you have any.

A

Good evening my name is kyle murphy, I'm the facility manager for the.

A

Society for protection, new hampshire forest and in that particular area, where the bathrooms.

A

Will be located, um it's primarily japanese knotweed.

A

And we are doing some long-term planning to eradicate that, but nothing's set in stone. Yet.

B

Started to eliminate it wherever possible and yeah. That would be. That would be our goal.

G

I have a question for you, carl, yes,.

G

Knowing that it's the society that's operating this, I assume that you're.

G

Following organic land management practices for this piece of property- yes, organic excuse me.

G

The following organic land management practices? Yes, okay, I'm not sure.

A

Exactly what that means, but we don't fertilize the site, all the lawns or anything like that.

A

We do have some small garden areas in front of this building yep. um We have compost and loam that.

H

We use to plant the plants and whatnot many other property owners that have come before us that are.

G

Making changes to their property when it's close to wetland, or, in this case close to the creek.

G

We asked them if they would follow the nofa standards. It's the northeast.

G

uh Association of organic farmers and if they've got a it's an online, we can send you the link.

G

And it's it's it's. We just ask. There's three options: look for the the best practices of that.

G

And it's very very flexible, but it gives you some guidance too. So if you have a question yourself.

G

You have a resource to look at. Thank you very much, okay. Okay, thank you. Other questions right over.

F

um Do you have any buffer plantings proposed to counteract some of this.

F

Development in the buffer, we were not proposing anything at this time.

E

Because it's all within disturbed area- and it's you know over 80 feet away and further away from.

E

The wetland than the existing building we weren't proposing anything we're not it's not going to be.

E

A maintained lawn back there, so it it's going to be more of a meadow type of um area. So don't.

E

I don't really see a reason to provide additional plantings when it's it's really a meadow. My other.

F

Question so I just looking at the aerial from like google maps, it looks like it's pretty heavily.

F

Forested in the back there is that accurate, um not really not entirely. Okay, there's your your tree.

E

Line there and that's right up to the property line, almost are those pretty large trees, yeah.

E

There there's some- I don't know all the trees on that side, but there's some matter of fact right.

E

Those are substantial trees right there that pop up and I'm pretty sure, they're oaks that have a.

E

Very large yeah, so that's probably what I'm seeing on the ariel then yeah. Okay, thank you sure. Okay,.

B

No other questions. No, yes, I'll make a motion to recommend approval for purposes of discussion.

B

Okay, go ahead, um you know, aesthetic is, should we make through a second, oh.

C

Yeah sure, okay, um aesthetics aside, I don't know why you can't rotate that I'd rather.

C

Much rather have it out of the buffer than have it be aesthetically, pleasing.

C

I mean, I know it's 81 feet from the buffer in our buffer zone is 100 feet, and why can't it just be rotated.

B

F

I appreciate your point allison, but I will say you know my family and I are actually.

F

Out there quite a bit and that whole area is pretty disturbed, and so I don't.

F

Know I think that what they're proposing seems reasonable from my perspective, you know like.

F

It is sort of gravelly rough area, especially with all the construction and work that's been done out.

F

There, the last few years, so I will say I didn't, go out there and actually map it out to try to.

F

Figure out exactly where this piece of property is but or this new building will be, but I know.

F

The current building right there and I know the area around it and like to sam's point. You know.

F

The forest is kind of further away a little more north, so it again, I appreciate your point like.

F

Having less than the buffer is better, but for my from where I sit, this doesn't seem unreasonable.

F

As a potential project, well, you see the thing that I think about is we're, adding something.

C

Impervious to the dirt to the buffer, we're not looking for any buffer plantings. That's why I.

C

Feel like it can be rotated. If we don't rotate it, then we should have some sort of plantings.

F

I don't disagree with that: yeah take care of the impervious surface, that's being added henry.

I

I

And that's a really intense operation.

C

It doesn't show ledge there well, this way, no, no, I'm looking to rotate it 90 degrees. This way.

C

So, instead of having the rectangle be off to the lower left-hand corner, it would be more.

C

I'm not talking about flipping it over I'm talking about just rotating it.

B

Other discussion.

E

If I could, uh okay, so rotating is not going to get us out of there and we're mitigating it. It's.

E

413 square feet of impervious added, not all of that is in the buffer, we're mitigating it with a.

E

Stone drip edge, we're allowing a natural buffer to on treat the runoff that this is not a large ask.

E

And it- and I think it's a reasonable layout and I think an aesthetic does play a significant role.

E

When you're on a property like creek farm, and so I really do respectfully request it.

E

To um approve it in in the configuration that we presented. Thank you yes, allison.

F

Where would you like to see planting if, if they stay with the current configuration.

C

Yeah I'm just not sure where, but I would like to see the buffer edge like if there's no trees back.

C

There and there's no ledge, at least it doesn't fill it. You know you could put a few things there.

B

So tree trees along the buffer at the bottom plant, not necessarily trees, right.

C

Yeah planting blueberry, bushes or yeah something kind of nearest the building along the buffer edge.

B

And um in addition to letting I mean it seems like they plan on already letting.

B

It grow natural not have any lawn too, so would just be in addition to that.

B

uh I like to ask if you'd be inventable for that, but I, whether or not you would be okay with that.

E

To add some trees, some of those bushes or something.

E

Yes, we can provide some uh blueberry bushes in that area. Okay,.

B

Condition you want to restate your motion with the condition I recommend. I.

C

I make a motion that we recommend approval with the stipulation that.

C

um Blueberry bushes be planted along the edge of the buffer in that area.

C

Okay, and is it good for your second, we have had both standards.

A

B

uh We need to have a alternate vote today. You want to take the vote. Take the vote.

A

Well, abigail seconded it so he's like well, you can suck in it.

A

As long as you're cool yeah, we forgot to ask that question like yeah all right, abigail.

B

Today and you guys soon, all good okay. Thank you all right. So we have a motion on the table with.

B

Two conditions um wanted no any more discussion.

B

I do do we want to specify those blueberry bushes, or can it just be native plants that work there.

D

Yeah I was wondering about that is blueberries. Does it have the hybrid or native plants that.

C

Would work there I think, but native shrubs, yeah native shrimps, okay native shrimps,.

B

Okay, thank you. All. Those in favor opposed okay motion passes. Thank you very much. Thank you.

D

You're doing all right.

B

Next item on the agenda is 325 little harbor road. Anybody here to stick to that.

J

Good afternoon, madam chair members of the commission, corey caldwell of tf moran.

J

Joining me today, as part of the design team, is matthew, cunningham and josh bergery of matthew.

J

Cunningham landscape design. We also have jim youngblood our contractor and hannah giovanici a.

J

Professional engineer with t.f moran, this project was reviewed and received favorable recommendation.

J

From this commission back in november, since this recommendation, we've had to make a few revisions.

J

And we wanted those this conservation the opportunity to to see those revisions. First.

J

Before we went to planning board for the final approval, uh the planning department asked us to.

J

Go to tac because of the complexities of the utilities being brought to the island. You may.

J

Recall we were removing the septic system, which required a new sewer line. There's a new water line.

J

Electrical line, as well as gas line, and during that process we realized that the driveway coming.

J

From little harbor road to the island is going to need to be excavated to run these utilities.

J

Then the driveway will need to be resurfaced. Some of the impacts associated with that and I think.

J

Sheet c04 is the best sheet to bring up to look at some of the utilities and resurfacing of that.

J

Driveway is in the buffer zone. There's no changes to any natural communities in the buffer zone.

J

All this work is taking place in the paved area or shoulder of the road. So there's no, no change.

J

There's no removal of vegetation associated with these utility connections. Second, since our last.

J

Meeting we've learned that the bridge to the island is in need of some repairs eventually.

J

The bridge may need replacement as such, the causeways or the portions, leading to the bridge.

J

Are going to need some changes, there's going to be new abutments, probably necessary for the bridge.

J

The causeways leading to those to that bridge are going to need some uh perhaps.

J

Some shoring up or some changes this again has temporary impact to the to the buffer zone.

J

The utilities also, when we get to the bridge those will be hung from the bridge.

J

And that will take some temporary impact to the buffer zone. Third change was the areas of.

J

Woodlands we showed previously and were approved. If you remember, we were preserving.

J

A lot of woodlands and we were converting a lot of the some areas to natural wooded area.

J

We're not reducing woodlands, but we are converting some of those areas to a wooded meadow there's. No.

J

Trees to be proposed to be cut no additional trees from what you saw back in november, just the shape.

J

Of some of these meadows has slightly changed, which results in some some buffer zone impact.

J

Our goal is to maintain and we are by the plants, we're maintaining a 50-foot.

J

Wooded buffer, where it exists today, and the only changes to this conversion to meadow.

J

Is outside of this 50-foot buffer? And lastly, we added some minor storm water improvements.

J

For roof runoff for the main house and the caretakers house, these improvements include.

J

A couple of drain, manholes and dry wells to collect, distribute and infiltrate storm.

J

Water from the main house, the guest takers house, will have a perimeter drain around it.

J

Which will lead to a little infiltration area to get that roof runoff to infiltrate into the ground?.

J

These results or the the changes to these results.

J

Of the following, the total buffer zone impact is now 195 600 square feet previously approved it.

J

Was 175 000. most of this increase? 99 of it is the result of the bridge, repairs and the temper.

J

The excuse me, the driveway repairs associated with the utilities and the resurfacing of that driveway.

J

Total lawn area is being further reduced from the last time this commission saw it.

J

We're going down to now 118 000 square feet of lawn. What exists on the island today is.

J

Approximately 267 thousand square feet of lawn. We were reducing that down to 146.. We are reducing.

J

Another almost 30 000 square feet of lawn area over what this commission saw back in november.

J

And lastly, the natural woodland area is slightly being reduced to 206.

J

000 square feet where previously it was 255 000 square feet. This reduction is the result of.

J

Increasing the size of the meadows again within those meadows, there are no.

J

Trees to be cut no saplings, no mature trees. No woody vegetation is proposed to be cut.

J

In summary, little has been changed since the last time you saw this. We.

J

Were contemplating utilities last time, however, we didn't know the.

J

The extremity we didn't realize that in doing those utilities that that road, the causeways.

J

In the bridge would need repairs and resurfacing, and the bridge may even need replacement.

J

As a reminder, these new utilities allow us to remove the septic system, which is currently behind.

J

The main house and approximately 20 feet from the piscataco river. It also allows us to eliminate.

J

The substandard water service, that periodically freezes and as it goes to the island, it comes.

J

Down the driveway goes into the ground under the bridge under the river back up the other side.

J

The bridge, repairs and replacement ensure safe access for both construction vehicles and.

J

Emergency vehicles and the overhead lines coming from pleasant point across the pascatico river by.

J

Bringing in these new utilities that allows us to remove those so there's no hazards to boats that.

J

Are utilizing that portion of the river these new utility and bridge impacts do not alter the buffer.

J

As they don't impact any natural communities of the buffer, all this proposed new buffer impact.

J

Takes place on previously developed upland, either paved driveways uh rip-rap swale from a driveway.

J

To the river or the bridge itself, which has no impacts other than the the abutments between the.

J

The causeways, the one either side of the bridge. There is no additional loss of vegetation as a.

J

Result of these impact changes so very similar to what you see we just wanted.

J

To update the plans, bring the commission up to speed with all of the impacts and ask that you.

J

Favorably recommend this to the planning board, so we can proceed to the next step myself. The.

J

Team is here to to address any questions. Thank you, corey. Any questions from the commissioners allison.

B

um Yes, I have two questions. um One is what happened with increasing the size of the meadows.

C

How did that happen? I'm going to let josh address that from the landscape design team.

J

I think it was more about the change in the shape, if anything but josh, if you could add a few words.

K

Good afternoon joshua bergery matthew, cunningham landscape design, part of the.

K

Reason that that was adjusted is design change. The client is interested in pursuing solar.

K

Outside of all of the buffer zoning, so on the top of that null sort of where the existing barn is.

K

And this is part of a study to pursue that we've not finalized that design.

K

And we've not finalized the area, which is why it's not shown on the plan right now.

K

But that was the reason, as corey said: there's no removal of trees. So all the existing trees.

K

In that meadow area, currently it's it's predominantly a meadow right now. It's.

K

Was flagged or sort of delineated as such in our original plant plan sort of the boundaries of.

K

That meadow have changed, but we're not changing the tree line at all. We've actually pulled back.

K

Our meadow line further away from the resource area from the edge of the water on that side.

C

And my my second question has to do with snow removal or or where you're going to.

C

Store snow, I just everybody needs to know that it can't go in the buffer area. Yeah.

J

That's clear, but it's a good point. um I don't think we've added a note on the plan.

J

Where snow removal is to go, it's intended to be outside of the buffer, but that could certainly.

J

Be clarified by adding a note to the plan that no storage should be within that 100 foot buffer as.

J

You can see the the area that makes the most sense for snow storage is probably that circle area.

J

Which is outside of the 100 foot wetland buffer, the driveway comes in goes past. The main house and.

J

Goes into that circle, we're thinking the middle of that area makes the most sense, which is out of.

J

The buffer, but we're certainly certainly happy to add a note to the plan to that effect. Okay,.

D

America, um somewhere in this reading, I saw that that stipulation uh so they've just for.

D

The record they said somewhere in here they said there will be no snow removal in the.

J

Thank you. So it may already exist. I'm sorry hannah note 5 one. Would she yeah on sheet.

J

C8 I'm told it already exists as note 5. Thank you yeah just saying on sheep five, yes see yeah.

J

Show so snow shall not be stockpiled in wetlands and wetland buffers see snow storage locations.

F

This might be a very silly question, but going from woodland to meadow area if you're not cutting.

F

Trees, what what is being like, what changes what's happening there very little, because it's almost.

J

It's almost a metal area. Now we just wanted the numbers on the plan to be accurate. So when we.

J

Looked at this potential solar array, it didn't correspond to the shape of the metals in other.

J

Words, the solar array has to be within that metal. We were showing it before as because.

J

There's mature trees out there. If you look from an area looking down, it appears that it's all wooded.

J

But it's really not, as you go to the west side of the island, there's some clear wooded areas and.

J

Then there's some clear meadow areas: remember the former owner of the island had horses.

J

And that area is mostly fenced in where he pastured the horses. The area has grown.

J

Up we just wanted the areas to be accurate. Very little change there'll, probably be some seeding.

J

Some wildlife seeding mix some conservation mix thrown in there to get some um some growth more.

J

Growth on the ground other than that there's no physical intervention, no human intervention, no.

F

Okay, thank you. Yes, yes uh corey. I have a question for you, but I I think also for peter too. You sort.

F

Of mentioned this, but I'm just curious as so. It sounds like if I'm understanding correctly the.

F

Timeline to do the causeway repair is prior to construction. Considering there'll be lots of.

F

Heavy vehicles going over there on the site or no like what happens if the bridge needs to be.

F

Replaced do they come back before us if the bridge actually needs to be replaced.

F

So I can answer that question we did meet out on site with dave price of des okay and the bridge.

J

Will support trucks, but it will not support heavy concrete trucks. We have a method which is approved.

J

By a structural engineer, to reinforce the bridge with steel sheathing to allow construction to go.

J

On we don't want to replace that bridge prior to construction. We want that to be the last thing.

J

Kind of work do all the work on the island then work our way out. So the plan is to temporarily.

J

Shore, that bridge up with this steel plating, which does not require any permitting from the state.

J

However, we did show that as impact area on this plan, then when that's done to replace the bridge.

F

So it sounds like you are: anticipating replacing the bridge because initially.

F

You kind of it sounded more, like you, weren't sure, if you needed to replace them yeah. I think.

J

It's to be determined. What we're told by the structural engineer is that if we could shore.

J

Up the abutments and do some work to the bridge, it could remain so we're looking at both options.

F

So then, peter, if it does in fact need to be replaced, and we did that- is that a separate yeah.

A

It sounds like it would be more impacted, separate state wetland per minute at the future time when.

A

They did that right, which would have to come back to this, just for the reinforcement, right, yeah.

F

um Can you remind me the driveway going from the bridge.

F

Up to kind of the main part of the property through that buffer is that uh pervious? What.

J

You know the the driveway is respected, what it will be after you know, everything's.

J

uh We noted it, it was intended to be pavers yeah, cobble pavers, okay, but with gaps.

J

And the stone layers below it such that it would be pervious. Okay, thank you.

B

So many questions um I had a question about the meadow too, so this is partly.

B

Because you guys might be doing solar out there in the meadow cory correct so solar panels. Yes,.

B

In the buffer or in the middle, it would be outside of a buffer. In fact, it would.

J

Be outside the 150-foot natural woodland buffer, the state has of the shoreline protection act.

B

So I have so my other question: is this is kind of crazy but um anything out of the buffer.

B

On that side of the island, we don't have really any jurisdiction over, but you do state in here.

B

The remaining half of the island is proposed to be left in its natural woodland state.

B

So if you go out there and you put solar panels- which I think is great.

B

And a great idea, but you'd kind of have carte blanche on what you can do.

B

Once you're out of the buffer- and I I felt like we've approved this originally because we.

B

It's so great that that part of the island is going to be left in its natural state.

B

So this is just putting it out there is there anything there's any way to commit to that. We.

J

There's no way to commit to it because we're studying it now to see if it would generate.

J

How much power would it generate? Would it be enough for the island? You know.

J

Pros cons, yeah, and, to be honest, I don't I I know it's um not ideal and there is some impact from.

B

Having the solar panels, I don't really have a problem with that. I have a problem with other.

B

Other potential buildings and things like that yeah it wouldn't result in any other buildings.

J

There would just be solar panels, they'd be outside well outside of the buffer.

J

However, it would require a shoreland permit from the state, because it's in that 250 foot.

J

Buffer, so the the state would get a look at it. It would require panels and typically an.

J

Underground line that goes from the panels to the uh to the where the houses are to the.

J

Not sure the right term, if it goes to the transformer, maybe you can help me jim, but.

J

It would be an underground line that goes from the panels to the an inverter yeah.

J

Okay, go to an inverter uh near close to the main house and those are other locations on the site.

B

Closer to the main house that you could put them or on them, I you know yeah once well. So, okay.

K

So uh if you remember from the site walk that area is previously disturbed, it was paddock area. It's.

K

Sort of been gone fallow, there's obviously invasives that we're trying to address there.

K

The sighting location where they are now is basically into the disturbed area. It's exactly.

K

Over the top of the existing barn or shed that's there, so we're trying to minimize the.

K

Impact obviously stay out of the wetlands areas and stay outside of the actual woodland zone, so.

K

That whole west side of the island past the driveway, is what we've been considering.

K

Sort of undisturbed untouched area, but in reality it is previously disturbed by the prior owners.

K

So, as I said, we're not cutting down trees, we're not going into the woodland area. The panels are.

K

Actually going to be cited in what was previously paddock and where the turnaround is shown on that.

K

Existing plan is actually the prior owners dumping area, so there is sort of stone and.

K

Rock and previous lawn clippings there, so we we found that you know citing it. That is one of the.

K

Few areas out on this site that is outside of the 50 other than sort of the main house area.

K

And that was sort of the main area that we had. It was feasible for us to put a large solar array.

B

Okay, thank you for answering my questions. Thank you. Yes, abigail uh follow up on that solar.

D

Question, though, why aren't you putting them on the roof of the house? Is it because you they don't.

D

Want to look the look of it because the house is huge and there are no trees around it to speak of.

D

I mean a few big trees, but nothing like what's over in the meadow area, and so I'm just curious.

D

Because is because the one you're talking about is the one that's 7 772 square feet right. That's the.

D

The proposed one that's over in the meadow: that's what you're talking about where the solar would be.

K

Yeah, I I'd say it was primarily an architectural decision and also uh just view shed for residents.

K

Offside off off site, um if we put them on the south facing roof of the main house, those are.

K

Going to be very visible from from the water and from off the island by situating them.

K

Higher up in the island, we can take advantage of the screening. That's along the edge of the.

K

Water with deciduous and evergreen trees that are existing right now: okay, okay, thank you! Oh um yeah,.

D

Just a typo, I think it might be in your invasive species, in the in the landscaping thing. On page.

D

11, it says invasive plant images and I'm pretty sure you're. Those are the native ones.

D

The staghorn sumac, the viburnum but they're marsh elder.

D

Anyway, I don't know, if is that, should they be, I don't know it was misleading to me.

D

When I saw that so because the other pages are the invasive and they say invasive too,.

D

Anyway, I'm just saying typo you might want to I'm sorry. What page was that page 11 page 11.

D

Right under the uh 325 little harbor road, it says invasive plant images.

J

Okay, so we'll take that up with pater who prepared this and make sure that if that is.

J

Incorrect that it gets adjusted accordingly, I mean there it's a whole catalog of invasive ones,.

D

But then I think you get to the page where you're talking about um native so anyway.

C

Sorry yeah, I think, there's a couple of pages 11s in that document, but.

B

I noticed it too. It was a little confusing.

B

Because otherwise, it's a great management plan. Yeah yeah, certainly review that with.

J

Ecological make sure it gets corrected.

B

Okay, thank you other questions.

B

Yes, I was just gonna make a motion. I recommend approval of this application to the planning.

C

Board to are we discussing that after the after secondary okay. Second, second, thank you discussion.

D

um Yeah sure, since you know I want to- um I guess I have a question. First- is.

D

What are we voting on today? Because it seems as if this has been approved in prior thing, and this.

D

Project made me so angry in so many ways, so uh um so I just want to limit my comments to what.

D

uh Can I talk about the whole project? No, you can only talk about the what's being changed.

B

We did have a discussion about this before and peter you had said it was okay. Then I.

A

Mean it's really they're they're making changes throughout the site. So it's an amended approval.

A

So the commission has voted on the whole project before but they've made changes throughout the.

A

Whole project, so I guess I guess just to a certain extent you could, but I had suggested that it makes.

A

Sense only to talk about the big changes that they're proposing, because he was saying that the.

D

Meadow had been disturbed and it definitely got. I definitely saw that when I walked it, so I was.

D

Wondering why the house, if they're tearing down an old house of five thousand square feet and want.

D

To put up a over six thousand square feet house, why are they even allowed to do it in the buffer.

D

Zone because it does not, it doesn't adhere to the cups, because there is plenty of non-buffer zone.

D

Area they can build, especially because it's been disturbed and I feel like this invasive species.

D

Thing you know like oh we're, gonna restore the second half. I feel like it's a bait and switch.

D

And it's like yeah they're, probably gonna, restore it anyway, because they want it to look nice. But.

D

They're, you know they're down, 15 paces. The edge of the building is 15 paces from the shoreline.

D

And they get to look out at all the conservation land that new hampshire and portsmouth has bought.

D

And they're concerned about their solar panels on their three-story house being an issue when.

D

The three-story house, because it's a basement, has a walk-out basement, I'm kind of wondering.

D

uh You know that's the least of the problems in terms of I find, but anyway I mean these are all.

D

Issues he's brought up now in the discussion, so I will, I will you know, but there's 12 000 square.

D

Feet of building proposed on this, and all of it is either completely or partially in the wetland.

D

Except that 772 foot farm, so I don't know it made me angry on a whole bunch of ways.

D

And I and I felt like the they can't cut down anything in the buffer zone and what's not in.

D

The buffer zone is mostly um meadow anyway and if they're ground, you know like the grandfather.

D

Again, if you keep a house in something that's not allowed in the zoning and then you, but you.

D

Then you want to tear down the house: you're, not you're, not allowed to build back in that area.

D

So they're ripping down a 5, 000, 5 000 square foot house and a whole bunch of other buildings.

D

To build the same thing in the same place, it wasn't shouldn't be allowed in the first place.

D

And they can put it in a disturbed area and then they could actually plant out where the house was.

D

Which is in the buffer zone and they could anyway, so do you want me to address it.

D

You can include, or not I don't know whatever can I add just one point before because I'd be curious.

C

um In terms of the solar panels, I think it's a really great idea, but in terms of a meadow and.

C

Existing land- I know it's been disturbed, but it seems it's also possible to restore that and to.

F

Put the solar panels somewhere else right to keep, because when you do have a solar field, it does.

C

There is an option there to have plants. There is an option to have something greener and.

C

You know having experienced solar fields, they aren't without impact, they do bring benefit, but.

C

There's other alternatives, so I told you that's not really in front of us today.

C

Though, oh the solar thing is not a part of the battle. Oh, I thought that was this. Okay got you.

B

um Okay, peter, I was just going to make a clarifying point that.

A

The wetland conditional use permit isn't doesn't not allow things, it's not something that can't.

A

You can't do in the wetland buffer. It's the whole point of the conditioning. Experiment is to allow.

A

Things in the buffer and it's a balancing, it's it's trying to determine where things.

A

Make sense to put in there and and why and I think the commission when they voted to approve.

A

The project looked at it as a whole project and they they looked at the balancing of it. So.

A

Just that just want to make that point that it's it's not there's nothing. That's.

A

Specifically not allowed like you can't say you can't knock down a house and rebuild it.

A

You could, if the commission allowed it, so the commission has sort of a process they use to.

A

Look at it and they make the recommendation to the planning board based on whether they think.

A

The application, I think in general whether the application is an improvement of what's.

A

There and whether they're willing to allow that impact in the buffer, given they can't make their.

A

Project work completely outside of the buffer. So right, I just want to get that clarification if.

D

The project can work in a non-buffer zone area which it looks like it could, because I'm moving.

D

The house into that into the meadow and it pretty much fits where the paddock is in square footage.

D

I mean so maybe they don't have a pool right by the ocean and you know maybe.

D

They walk from the house to the pool instead of having a pool house. um I just feel like.

D

Because one of the criteria is, can this? Can this fit in? uh You know: can this fit outside the buffer.

D

Zone and it truly can um and they've already said that that meadow is disturbed and you know there.

D

Aren't enough, like that, meadow that stuff can all be taken care of in one season of growing of.

D

Of seeding because it's all met it's, it's all, like um uh you know, meadow stuff, it's golden rod and.

D

Whatever and milk uh milkweed so anyway, uh if but if this is not allowed to be.

I

35 condos to also rebuilt outside of the wetlands buffer, but there was a lot of positive proposals.

I

I saw this as the people who are now uh imagining the land responsibly.

I

By their right hand, their vicious and things like that, so I I thought morris, they were.

I

They have an effort to have the land that they own, so that this is originally.

F

Ted yeah, I will say when I voted for approval for this project. My vote was.

G

On the understanding that this half of that island wasn't going to be touched,.

G

It was going to stay in its natural state, now we're putting the solar.

G

Array on there- and I'm I'm sorry- but I uh that was my vote or approval for that. So this change.

G

And now a plan to put solar out there on the part of the property that I thought was going to be.

G

You know go to a natural state, I I have a problem with it, so I don't know if approving this.

G

Affects that or we can approve this dependent upon they're, not uh developing that side all I would.

A

Say is the um area that you have jurisdiction on if that's changed, that would be appropriate? I.

A

Guess if it's beyond the jurisdiction- and you had an understanding, then you would have to somehow.

A

Protect that have them, you know that would have had to have been a stipulation or something like.

A

That so I guess that's that's I mean it's. You know they didn't talk about solar panels before.

A

They're not proposing them in this application, but they have mentioned it so you're right.

B

Yeah- and I think this is a really hard situation, because this we have seen this proposal many times.

B

Before and it's new to me and yeah, we have gone back and forth with all a lot of those pretty much.

B

All those things that you've you know mentioned, which are really valid, concerns that you have.

B

And part of it was not necessarily mitigation, but you know sort of there was a lot of buffer.

B

Planting going on that area is totally along. The shore has no vegetation in a lot of places that.

B

They are going to be adding natural vegetation and native species and then the invasive species.

B

Management plan was above and beyond anything that we've seen so, but that was really exciting.

B

And and the organization that we did a site walk the company, that's doing the work or has put the.

B

Plan together is is renowned and um and but that was another issue. Oh sorry, so it's just going to.

B

Say that that really is sort of you know you're coming from not having the history, but you have.

B

Valid points, but we have kind of you know, done the back and forth for many times the cotton dab.

D

Though, oh sorry um is using glyphosate and I know it's a small amount, but that is going right into.

D

The root and going into the ground, and if they're doing it on a bunch of little things that are you.

D

Know one inch in diameter a little bit more. That's just I mean that is banned in europe from all use.

D

And they're going to go out and then you know, dab the roots. And that's why I was just sort of like.

D

Yeah anyway, but I understand I haven't seen it samantha's next hold on I'm good. Okay, go ahead, ted.

G

You know we actually talked about that and talked specifically with the gentleman that.

G

Was going to do it and the approach that they do use and it's actually within the nofa standards.

G

Which we've been uh proposing to follow for organic land management? It's not the best.

G

Practice, you know you're going to pull them off by hand and other things, but in situations where.

G

You might be disturbing the broad area that is an acceptable method to control invasive species.

B

On that very limited approach, and they only use a cut off the top- and you only use a little bit of.

D

Right life we'll see, but that stuff doesn't go away. For I don't know thousands of years or.

D

Something and you're putting it on an island and anyway, so, okay! Well, thank you for letting me speak.

F

It's an unusual go ahead, you're also completely entitled to whichever way you vote like no one's.

F

Trying to you know, persuade you one way or the other, so yeah, yeah yeah, it's just an.

B

Unusual situation, yeah it's a heart out here.

B

um I was just gonna say more for the record. um I voted against this project last time and.

F

Because, although I did appreciate a lot of the efforts and how the owners plan to care for the.

F

Property, I just felt it was very invasive or not invasive, but uh very impactful. The.

F

The blasting and the fill, and some of the things that were proposed for this project just felt very.

F

Intense for this small island- and I I don't know if it's true or not, but I've since learned.

F

Anecdotally that this island is potentially a nesting habitat for great blue herons, so.

F

If that is in fact the case with all this work going on out there, that would be you know.

F

Concerning to me, if they lose their, I don't know. If that's true like I said it was just anecdotal.

F

um But so my view of this project has not really changed just to be clear, I still feel it's it's.

F

Very intensive um and like, as I said several times now, I definitely appreciate the owners efforts.

F

To care for it, um but I just think there are some other options too, so yeah we're in discussion. Okay,.

B

Thank you jess. I I was just gonna add I. I worry about the um the solar up. There.

B

With any kind of bird habitat- and um it would be- you know, it just seems like the viewscape.

B

Of a building would solar on top um seems like that would be much better option than.

B

A viewscape of a meadow with a bunch of solar panels that totally take away any kind of.

B

Wildlife, habitat of that or potential and and could actually be detrimental.

B

To the health of the birds that are using that area, that said, I totally think that you guys.

B

Having the solar is a great idea, it would be really nice if you would look at the other options.

B

um It's not, I don't feel like purview to this discussion in this application. So it's not.

B

Going to sway my vote, but that's how I feel very strongly about. I will vote in favor of this, but.

B

I really am reluctant, you know and wish we had some sort of jurisdiction over that area.

B

Oh boy, yeah, okay,.

J

I just wanted to say that really the primary reason we looked at solar was the.

J

Direction we got from this commission a couple. Commissioners said: have you considered solar.

J

We wish you would so we did, we looked at it. We're trying to put it in the least.

J

Obtrusive place that it could possibly go in in our opinion, is the already cleared area.

J

It's not going to require tree removal to put a solar system up on that hill, and it's out of this.

J

Commission's jurisdiction, it's beyond the 100 foot buffer, so we took the lead. We looked at it and.

J

Side of me is feeling like, maybe now I'm hearing all these negative things about it. You know.

J

After being asked to look into it, but we do hear you loud and clear: building the roof of the.

J

Building may be an option as well as where we're going with it now, but I just wanted to uh let the.

J

Commission know why we looked into solar in the first place, yeah. No, I appreciate that. Thank you.

J

One thing I forgot to add is we have converted from. We are going to geothermal for heating.

J

High electrical use, so the additional solar will help help juice, that if you will.

B

Okay, thank you.

B

And uh was there anybody from the public? No, it's not a public hearing, but just.

B

To make sure there wasn't any of bettors or anybody, no, I don't see anybody on zoom either.

B

Okay, thank you all right. We have a motion on the table. We've had discussion if there's no.

B

Further discussion: do we want to do a vote? Yes, all those in favor.

B

Four five: do we need to do? We need to do a roll call or no wait there. We go, you got it.

A

One two: three, four: five: were you in or ted? No, no, so one two three four.

B

All those opposed one, two three three motion passes.

B

Please consider what we were talking about. Thank you. Thank you. Consideration.

B

Next item on the agenda is 213 jones, ave.

B

I'm gonna speak to that.

B

F

F

F

Thank you keep that I'll share.

F

We got another.

L

Shall we proceed? Sorry. Thank you, madam chair members of the conservation commission, john.

L

Shagnan from ambit engineering here today on behalf of donald stickney, the applicant and.

L

He is in attendance in the back, um so he's the owner of the property. It's uh 213 uh jones avenue.

L

I don't know if the plans will be trying to get it up. John. What sheet would you like uh just run.

L

The whole set, I think it and it's kind of in the back end of the way it was put together. Yeah the.

A

Clan sets in the back. You want the plan set yeah. Just the plan set yeah start with the cover sheet.

L

Just to orient everybody um currently, the the lot is sort of oversized for the neighborhood.

L

And there was just a small about 864 square foot, residential dwelling unit on the property and.

L

So mr stickney is looking to potentially provide for his family and his of.

L

uh Father and what he wants to do essentially is take the uh there we go so there's the.

L

Small dwelling unit, the the property, is on a curve on jones avenue. uh It sort of starts out.

L

With a lot of frontage and then ends up with two sidelines that converge in the back there's a.

L

Wetland area in the back of the property, which has a finger of wetland that that does come up.

L

On the east side of the lot that does protrude up, and so that creates a um wetland buffer that.

L

Sort of comes up and then uh follows an arc of a line that is the hundred foot from that.

L

Sort of finger of wetland that comes up, and um so the the structure is small. Mr stickney wants to do.

L

A detached accessory dwelling unit and build a primary structure and have the existing dwelling.

L

Be a be the detached accessory unit, and so the next slide.

L

Shows the layout of the lot and the primary structure which would be constructed so.

L

Typically, it's kind of the reverse situation. Usually you'd have an existing structure and.

L

Then you'd build an accessory dwelling unit. In this case, the existing structure is going.

L

To become the accessory dwelling unit and he's going to build a new structure.

L

To be the primary structure, and then the existing structure will be the accessory.

L

Dwelling unit, so you see that proposed primary structure on the right side.

L

Of this lot, here's the wetland buffer and the existing adu we're proposing a new driveway and.

L

The part of the buffer that we're proposing to impact is this section here.

L

And the proposed impact is for a proposed detention area, so I included in this handout.

L

Today- and I I know you don't getting things at the meeting is a little troubling, but if I could just.

L

Run through it, if you look at the cover page, it's the city of portsmouth zoning, ordinance, 1081450.

L

Two-Thirds of the way down is the rules for how you can create an accessory, detached accessory.

L

Dwelling unit on your property, so they're allowed in the general residence district they need to.

L

Comply with the minimum lot area for dwelling unit specified for the district and in this district.

L

The this does comply the um the it's well below the. uh When you add the second unit, it's well.

L

Below the lot area for dwelling unit requirements, so it meets the ordinance in that respect.

L

uh In section 52, the second paragraph it has the detached dwelling unit. You'll have.

L

A no shall not have more than two bedrooms and shall not be larger than 750 square feet.

L

uh Although it can be up to a thousand square feet, if the lot area is two acres or more so in.

L

This case we're asking the planning board for some waving of that particular rule, because.

L

The dwelling unit that exists is about 860 or so square feet, so it's above 750 and the lot is not.

L

Two acres, but the planning board is allowed to waive that and in this particular case.

L

uh We're asking them to do that, because we're talking about an existing small home.

L

And it wouldn't really make sense to shave some footprint.

L

Off of that home on the next page, 53 talks about the detached accessory dwelling unit.

L

Being clearly subordinate to the principle single family dwelling in scale, height and appearance,.

L

And that's uh one of the main reasons why we have the configuration that you see up on the.

L

Screen now the facade area of the uh detached accessory dwelling unit facing the street shall.

L

Be no more than 40 percent of the combined visible facade areas, so you add up the facade area of the.

L

Detached adu- and you add, the facade area of the house together and the detached adu uh shall be.

L

No more than forty percent of the combined visible uh facade area so in this particular application.

L

Again, we're at 46 percent so we're a little bit out of skew because of the 750 860 and we're.

L

Going to ask the planning board for some relief there, but it's very minor. The next one is uh 532.

L

The building height of the detached adu shall be less than the building height and the principal.

L

Dwelling and that the detached structure is a one story and we're going to build a two-story primary.

L

Structure so that has met the detached accessory. Drawing unit shall be architecturally consistent.

L

With the principal dwelling- and we did submit some photographs of renderings of this proposed.

L

Structure and we're going to be making some changes to try to bring that more in compliance.

L

Then uh the next 54 is that the detached dwelling unit shall be separated.

L

By at least 20 feet- and uh there is- this- is more than 20 feet- separation.

L

um So it meets that, but 55 says that the front wall of the adu shall be set back at least 10.

L

Feet further from the front lot line than the existing front wall of the single family dwelling.

L

So the idea there is a pretty prominent one, and that is that the detached dwelling unit is not.

L

The more prominent structure on the lot, it's sort of subservient to the primary structure.

L

So you don't want to have the small detached unit in front of the big house, so we've placed the the.

L

We're stuck with the existing location of the detached. What's going to become.

L

The detached accessory drawing unit we placed the proposed house as far forward as we can, and it's.

L

Not going to meet the 10 feet further back to the accessory.

L

We're going to ask the planning board for some minor relief in that regard too, but I think.

L

As you come down jones avenue um visually because of the curve of the street and all that it's going.

L

To meet the intent, and we would hope that the planning board would agree with us in that respect.

L

And then the last thing is that no portions of the detached unit can be in the required front yard.

L

And regardless of the location and it's not in the front yard, and the proposed structure is not.

L

We're not asking for variance to put it into the front yard, so we we sort of meet that 10.

L

Feet we think it's better to leave this like it is and ask for minor variation to the code.

L

So the second part of the what I handed out today is just, I think, what you naturally would say.

L

If you looked at this project and you saw the buffer line uh starting out as it does,.

L

On the west side of the property uh over here and then going around the finger of wetland.

L

Buffer, why wouldn't the house go here? Why couldn't you put the house there and I've shown.

L

That you could, under the usual circumstances, for placing structures outside of the buffer.

L

And so on and so forth, but in this particular case the detached accessory dwelling unit regulations.

L

It would not allow this project to go forward, so um this circumstance is the uh probably the.

L

Biggest extending waiting circumstance to how this property has been assembled and designed.

L

The second thing: if we can go to the next uh before we go, you can see that the owner here and.

L

This has been under their stewardship. Not I don't know how many years.

L

So he lived there before he was able to buy it and now he's owned it and uh in his time he's planted.

L

About approximately 21 new trees, so he's doing um work to maintain this property and maintain.

L

The area, that's even in the wetland to try to improve the situation so on the next slide, the.

L

Other thing that is important to remember about this is the the septic system we need.

L

To uh put in a new septic system to accommodate the additional structure, currently, the existing.

L

System is uh behind the house. It's an in-ground system. It probably was designed uh before the.

L

Rigorous regulations of today and the best place to put a system is in this location.

L

So that we've had we have designed here an appropriately sized and um environmentally correct.

L

Septic system to replace the existing system, and in also that, will take the uh additional flow from.

L

The primary structure uh it will they'll collect in the back and pump up to this leech field.

L

The other part of the property is its relationship to the watershed. So currently, there's.

L

uh As I mentioned, there's a wet area back here, but there's sort of a high point that the front.

L

Half of the lot drains down to this corner of the property where there is an existing culvert.

L

That goes under jones avenue over to a catch basin, and then it travels out behind the.

L

Mack metals, property on the other side of the street and goes to a watershed over by the high.

L

School, this part of the the property here uh drains down through this finger of wetland.

L

To a large wetland that is to the south of the property, so they're kind of in two watersheds.

L

Seeing as how we're restricted with the location of the house and the septic system, uh we looked at.

L

Then what would happen if you constructed the site as it is because we don't? We didn't, want to do any.

L

Buffer disturbance, but what we found is that we would be delivering more runoff to that culvert.

L

Pipe then exists now so for the safety of that pipe and the downstream impacts. We don't want to.

L

Increase the water flow to that culvert as a result of the construction on this property, so.

L

Looking at what could we do to mitigate that there really, then it became clear as we did an analysis.

L

That there really wasn't enough room in the front yard to provide for a significant area of.

L

Detention to bring that peak flow down, you can see here the size of the detention area. It is shallow.

L

It's not deep, but compare that to having to have a driveway in the area that's available in the front.

L

We weren't able to put that in the front we did discover, though, looking at the hydrology and the.

L

Contours that if we were able to put this facility in the back and slow down the water that is coming.

L

From the backyard before it has a chance to get to the front yard the new surface, the new runoff.

L

From the proposed structure and driveway uh would would clear through that culvert under the street.

L

And we wouldn't have any impacts downstream. We put some drip aprons on the structure front and back.

L

And as further attempts to infiltrate the roof, runoff.

L

And that's that's pretty much.

L

How we came to this layout, we know we're we're asking for an impact in the buffer and.

L

uh It is something that is, uh we need to try to mitigate and try to um you know uh we're allowed.

L

To impact the buffer, but we should try to avoid if you can't and then minimize the impact so.

L

The applicant has agreed to buffer plantings here in the back and.

L

We might want to talk about maybe some sort of buffer planting.

L

In this area, if the board would like that there are certain things that can be planted in these.

L

Areas, but certainly that's going to be an area that is going to be.

L

Dedicated to hydrology- and it's not going to be a mowed lawn, so it's kind of converting.

L

A mold lawn into an area that we could now actually add more buffer plants, so.

L

I'll leave it at that for now answer any questions you have and.

L

Hopefully, we can find a way to make this project work for the applicant okay. Thank you. Questions.

B

Samantha the uh new driveway coming into the new proposed single family residence is that going.

F

To be impervious or pervious, um we're showing it impervious, but I think because of the fact.

L

That it's in uh uh going to be sort of in film, we could probably make that a porous driveway.

F

Because I think that would help and if you're trying to limit what's going to that culvert.

F

That would definitely help limit that and maybe potentially have an impact on the size of your.

F

Other types of storm water mitigation infiltration techniques needing to be used.

F

Thank you alison. I have a couple of questions so did you say that the.

C

Dadu is going to be attached to the new septic system. Yes, what's happening to.

C

The old septic system that's going to be removed as needed or left in place.

C

Okay, um also on the diagram, it shows that there's a garden in the wetland.

L

Yes, they're gardening, an area of that um it's it's a it's mode, currently mowed and there's.

L

A garden out there, yes, in the wetland area, they did not realize that it was a wetland area. They.

L

They took the possession of the property as a mode area. They've been continuing to mow. It.

C

Okay, um it's not a good, it's it's, not a field area or a cat of nine tails. It's it's primarily. uh You.

L

Know a place where the soils are poor and the water is held up and then um my last question is.

C

This uh detention pond that you have in the back here it seems enormous to me and.

C

As samantha said, you've got a 15-inch culvert out front. If you have a porous driveway, how do we know.

C

What the downstream is going to be, if you have stone drip edges around the house,.

C

Gutters, whatever to direct the water, where you want it to go rather than having this enormous.

C

Detention pond, I don't know how deep it's going to be, how long the water is going to stay in there.

C

And if you remove the septic system from the other, the other area, wouldn't it be.

C

More appropriate to put the pond there, rather than putting it in the buffer.

L

So the um the pond is very shallow. uh That's why it's it's as large as it is. There's not.

L

A huge amount of relief in the backyard of the property. This plan actually has.

L

A half foot contour interval. So if you're looking at it they're, not two foot contours.

L

Or half foot contours it's very flat, but they it is located in the low spot, a lower spot, a lower.

L

Part of the property, so right immediately behind the house, you can see contours the the only part.

L

There's a flow going this way. So if you put the detention area here, it's not going to catch.

L

The runoff that will allow it to make a difference in the peak flow out through the culvert.

L

That's why the tension area is where it is. We ran the models, the hydrological models.

L

Did a drainage analysis which hopefully was included? I know it was included in the.

L

Planning board application, but that's basically why it's because of the site: topography that you.

L

Couldn't put it um where you're suggesting and have you looked at any other methods for.

C

Retaining or collecting or slowing down the flow other than this huge detention form.

L

The hydrologist at our office.

L

I begged him to find a solution that wouldn't be in the buffer, but he you know there are.

L

Some setbacks to the septic system that come into play so- and I didn't think of this previously, but.

L

Where the, where the septic is now and immediately behind the house, that would be too close to the.

L

Septic area to put a detention facility, so we have to be 25 feet away from a leech field.

L

There's not a lot of infiltrative capacity to the soil, so.

L

You could think about. You know some sort of a chamber system in the front.

L

That roof leaders would run into like a storm tech. You know infiltration, but the infiltration.

L

Infiltrative qualities of the soil, just don't make that something that you could fit in the space.

F

Thank you two questions. So are you relying on um sheet flow from.

F

You know the water coming off the roof to get into the detention pond, or is there piping what how.

F

Is that how is water getting to the detention? Pond is my question sure yep so from the roof.

L

So, on the north side, there's a drip apron, so we would be collecting the.

L

And, of course, the roof, though, runs.

L

The ridge runs north south, so the east side of that roof would be guttered and brought to the.

L

Drip apron on the street side of the house. Okay, the um west side of the roof would be.

L

Brought over and uh I don't know that we would pipe it into the detention area, we.

L

Let it flow over some grass, so it would just be the natural roof without a gutter that would flow.

L

Sheet flow over the grass into the detention area, so it seems to me like.

F

There's still space in between the house and this detention pond to to infiltrate.

F

With drip edge along that back side, which it looks like you only have the drip apron on the front is.

F

That right, but given the ridge I mean, I suppose we could, we could add, we couldn't really. We.

L

Really, wouldn't want to add a drip, apron: okay, we're taking the east side roof to the front.

L

Where there's a good location for gray paper, the west side, uh if you were to put a drip apron.

L

I guess we could look at putting it on the south side of the house, so that's probably a good idea.

L

We can incorporate that you would want to put it on the west side of the house, because you.

L

Don't want to input more water in the vicinity of the leeching area, where you're trying to get.

L

The septic flow to go into the ground yeah, we could add a drip apron on the south side.

F

Potentially, this property might have to use several different techniques. Just so you don't.

F

Have such a gigantic um detention pond in the back there and you know one technique- might not.

F

Solve all of the stormwater issues on the site, but potentially using several outside the buffer, could.

F

Help really mitigate the size of impact you need to do in the buffer is all I would say. Thank you.

B

Thank you alison um also, I'm I'm just confused because I see this uh red.

C

Outlined area here and I'm not quite sure, if that's an additional building or what that is.

L

So I'm sorry that was part of the exhibit I handed out today, because if I had gotten this package.

L

Of plans, I would have said well why can't you put the house there and the reason that.

L

You can is because of the the way the detached adu is regulated in the city.

L

That was my point I was trying to make is that we needed to put the detached adu on the front.

L

So that the I mean the primary structure on the front, you couldn't put the primary.

L

Structure in the back, because it would violate uh the rules regarding uh detached adus being.

L

Subservient to the primary structure- yeah, I'm not suggesting that's, not another building placement.

C

Okay, yeah an option we can't have right. Yes, sorry so I I understand, and I see the.

C

I have no problem with putting the primary dwelling unit out on the road. The way you have.

C

It I agree with samantha that we need to look at some alternatives versus having this huge depend.

C

uh Detention in the buffer, I think there needs to be something else happening instead of that.

G

Yeah, I'm I'm surprised that we don't have sewer lines out there. Yet isn't it aren't they on.

G

Sagable road, more avenue sagamore- this is jones. Oh all, the way out, they're coming in the segment.

A

They're, I think they're in sagamore out in front of jones, but it's a ways down to.

L

So when you go around the corner at broad street and jones yep, you go down about a 20 foot, 16 foot.

L

Drop so this neighborhood versailles. All these, they don't. I mean a couple. People have pumped up.

A

Actually, versailles does right yeah yeah because they have some private pumps and there's a.

L

There's a clipper home, I think it's called there's a there's. An elderly housing facility.

L

That is up on the high point that has sewer and they've. Let people pump up to their locations.

L

But not at this far down.

B

Thank jones, yes jess. um This may be sort of a silly question and just my lack of understanding.

F

Of the water on this parcel, but how come um detention pond and maybe not more of like a.

F

Rain garden kind of scenario, or something like that. Well, we want to detain the water okay.

L

And that's, we can infiltrate. Usually a rain garden is associated with infiltration.

L

But the soils are not suitable to infiltrate but, as I mentioned in the in the early part of this.

L

We could come up with some plantings, we could talk about planting it, so it kind of.

L

You know looks like a rain garden. You'd want you'd need to plant with some uh native uh wet.

L

Foot loving species, but you could plant it. Yes, okay, another question: yes, um how long would it.

D

Take the water to process through uh the detent, the detention pond as you've designed it. You know.

L

So in a 50-year storm, the maximum water level would be a foot and a half, and it would take.

L

30 hours to totally uh drain.

D

And then it's it's adding to it's going into the wetland. I assume because the no no it's oh.

D

It would just go down it's so. The structure of the pond is that there's a um there's, an outlet.

L

Control device here that bleeds out the water slowly and then there's a pipe that is run down.

L

Here and then it discharges at this culvert goes across the street and out that way, oh okay, so it's.

D

Sorry, if this is stupid and from I mean you guys information, you already know uh it just basically.

D

Delays it so it doesn't uh stress the culvert out at the time of the storm. It just holds it until.

D

It can um send it down the culvert at a okay, yes, yep yep, so it's it's a detentioning is a you know.

L

Is trying to match the flow at the culvert yep and the additional water then is held back and.

L

Bled out slowly, okay, I thought it was easing it from going into the wetland. So, okay, thank you.

F

Samantha uh I did notice a chicken coop at the very kind of bottom part of the property, with the.

F

Gravel little wok, I guess going to it- is that still being used or is that.

F

Something that can be removed- I guess I'd just look to the owner. It's still in use.

F

F

Okay, thank you. Can you repeat that sure so for the microphone, uh mr stickney, the owner.

L

Said that he inherited the chicken coop, he still continues to use it as a chicken coop.

L

Is that what you said yeah I was asking about the chicken coop.

C

That is correct. I inherited that area was disturbed and the um the use continues today that.

D

Is correct as a chicken coop that is cool? Can you just introduce yourself sure I'm donald stickney.

A

I'm the property owner. Thank you. Thank you. So much. Thank you. Okay. I I had a couple of questions.

B

One is so the runoff is going to the culvert. Where does the runoff go after that into the.

B

Storm storm sewer system and then no it goes across the street and then it outlets to a swale.

L

That runs between the mack metals property and the um clipper home to some wetland areas that.

B

Are out in the back? Okay um it there is so in the drainage analysis. It mentions that this is being.

B

Done with having the potential to increase, stormwater runoff to adjacent properties and.

B

Therefore, must be designed in a manner to prevent that occurrence. Is that accurate? I mean? Is that.

B

You're, protecting the adjacent properties yeah whenever you develop a property and you increase.

L

The impervious surface, you have a potential to put more runoff onto your neighbors, so.

L

To mitigate that, you design infiltration detention so that you don't impact the.

L

Downstream of utters, thank you and the standard of care is the peak flow. If I, if I look at this.

I

It looks like a natural square there's some uh vase.

L

L

Yes, I mean the putting the structure there uh requires that we deal with that runoff.

L

That is coming from the back to the front, um but also we're trying to deal with the.

L

Increased impervious area, so, as I said we put, there is a pipe.

L

That drains that pond to the front, so it allows for the flow the natural flow path to continue.

B

Okay, here's one more question: um you show a tree to be removed, kind of in between.

F

The proposed single family residence- and I guess at the garden uh is that due to grading.

L

Which she did on c2.

F

The tree kind of right in the center it says tree to be removed. Yeah, that's going to be impacted by.

L

The construction of the septic system, the two trees, obviously in the front and then.

F

Oh okay, third, one in the back by the guard, is where the septic tank is going to go so.

L

Those have to be taken out in order to construct the septic okay, and you don't think that the pipe.

F

From the emergency spillway of the detention pond will impact the 36 36-inch maple over on that side.

L

Yeah, that's a good thing. um We're trying to save that tree.

L

But we probably should put some notes on the drawing about.

L

Being careful, maybe air spading, some of that to protect the roots but we're trying to save it.

L

B

um Before we do a motion, I guess I have sort of gonna go out of procedure and to say.

B

Do a motion, did you want this to be like a work session? There's an awful lot of changes.

B

And things discussed that I don't know yeah, I guess if you want to just uh if you think that.

L

uh Some of these things you've mentioned, could be uh revised on the plan and it could.

L

Potentially get your support and yes, we will come back next month. Certainly I I didn't hear.

L

A definitive about whether there was any chance of the detention pond even being planted as being.

L

Something you would support, so I guess I'll leave a little more direction on that, but.

L

We're certainly willing to come back with a another plan and try to incorporate these ideas.

B

um Knowing that does somebody want to make a motion either to approve or or.

B

A motion to have it be a postponement probably and then you can give them.

A

Feedback on what what you're! Looking for yeah, it's up to you guys totally.

B

I would like to make a motion to postpone this uh vote on it on this application. Second, okay,.

C

And my feelings are that the detention pond does not belong in the buffer. I think that.

C

It should go someplace else. um I think that there are a lot of other things that.

C

You can look at regarding infiltration, um including the porous driveway and.

G

Drip edges and.

C

You know I, I think that saving that 36 inch maple would be really important and having the.

C

Outfall by that and that huge detention pond is really a non-starter, even if you can just move it.

C

To the left, as we as we look at it, it would be better. So those are my.

C

My concerns, also the garden in the wetland, is, should be a no go, as should be anything. That's.

C

Down there, that's that's, acting as phil.

B

Okay, thank you. Yes, I would just like say I agree with allison and just to reiterate.

F

um Just looking a little bit deeper into a number of other stormwater runoff infiltration techniques.

F

For this property, and maybe using a several of them to try to mitigate a little bit better.

F

Yeah, yes, I'm sorry, I missed the beginning of what allison said, but.

F

I do like the idea of having some plantings around or the detention pond or, however, that could work.

F

As well- and I would add um that I do appreciate that it's already in your plan to.

F

Maintain the property according to nofa standards, so we appreciate that effort. Yes, thank you.

B

Yeah, I just wanted to speak to it too, that I definitely would want that treatment to be out.

B

Of the buffer, not protecting that resource, even I know it's protecting water on across the way and.

B

The neighbors, but we we don't really. You know this- isn't show justification to have a bmp in.

B

The buffer, as far as I'm concerned, so looking at the alternative, sounds like a great idea.

B

All the other suggestions, anybody else, yeah the planting uh plan- also is really appreciative.

F

Down the 2800 square foot planting areas- I appreciate it just want to put that out there.

B

Good anybody want to all those in favor, so the vote right now is to postpone it and have a.

D

Working session or something okay, so yes, voters for that. If you voted no, then what's the what's.

B

That we would go back and do another motion. Okay, I'm just yeah. I need to get them good question.

A

Just to say to the april meeting to the april meeting yeah: okay, all those in favor of those.

B

Posts motion passes. Thank you. Thank you. Next item on the agenda is the state wetland bureau.

B

Application- and I'm gonna- accuse myself on this, so it goes to samantha collins vice chance.

F

That's okay, yeah, okay,.

F

Okay, so next on the agenda is the state wetland bureau application for 555 market street? Is this.

A

I saw her christine pearl was on here and let me stop sharing and see if that helps.

A

There she is okay, I'm gonna make her a panelist christine. Can you hear me.

A

Should be showing up here? Oh.

A

Christine, can you hear me christine? Can you hear me there? You are yep yep, great and noah.

M

Ellwood should also be in attendance in person. I am christine great, thank you and we do have a.

M

Powerpoint presentation, I'm not sure um peter. If you want to share your screen for that or.

A

Yeah, let me see if you put it in the meeting packet or if it's okay, I have it here. I just don't.

A

Know where it is, let me just make sure uh there: it is market street powerpoint. Okay, let's see.

N

And also with us here today is captain gino marconi, the director of the.

N

Division: okay,.

M

Great, so I'm going to hand this off to noah to start us off and.

M

Then we'll wrap up by talking about the environmental issues.

N

Elsa yep peter. How do I advance do I do that? Hey next slide. I can do that.

N

So we're here today for a project at the market street marine terminal. It's called the.

N

Functional replacement barge dock, this project's related to the replacement of the cedar. uh Sarah.

N

Mildred long bridge and uh when that bridge was relocated, it removed one of the docks at the.

N

Marcus street marine terminal and to functionally replace that.

N

There's some expansion of the existing dock, the main war, the next slide.

N

And next slide it just to start out to give a context. I always enjoy the history.

N

This is the barker street marine terminal prior to.

N

The state taking ownership and any of the construction next slide.

N

This is starting the development in 1964, the construction of the.

N

First war by the state and next slide and now we're looking at the main wharf, there's two phases here: uh the left side was.

N

Built in 1964 and then the right side is under construction. Now, that's 1977. and next slide.

N

This brings you forward to um the contemporary construction at the facility in uh 1995.

N

You can see on the far right the construction of the barge war.

N

The construction was just completed at that time and then next slide.

N

And this shows the transformation with the construction of the military long bridge. If you.

N

Start in the top left, that's prior to the starter construction. You can see the bridge dissected, the.

N

The market street marine terminal with the barge wharf on the left and then the main morph.

N

To the top and to the right and then all the way down to the bottom right slide, that's with.

N

Construction of the bridge complete. It's now moved. You can see it's going through the existing barge.

N

Dock and a large portion that barge stock's been replaced or been removed and next slide.

N

And this just shows the current state just a different view and next slide.

N

This shows the project in full the functional replacement project. What this includes is an.

N

Extension to the south, approximately 90 feet an extension to the north labeled north extension.

N

Of approximately 130 feet, those two sections are concrete: superstructure supported on steel, casings.

N

That would be drilled down into the bedrock a little bit outboard. You see an area labeled.

N

As dredging that's improvement, dredging right now. That area is too shallow for the birthing of ships.

N

So it's bringing it down to the same depth as the federal channel and then shore side. uh There's a.

N

Little area labeled shore side alterations, that's a gra area, grassy knoll and it's connecting the.

N

uh The two portions of the terminal it paves it and then it adds some drainage.

N

And then, with the construction of the north extension.

N

It's in the area of where the authorities small boats are currently docked as a floating.

N

Dock there, and so that dog gets rotated around and connected to the barge wharf.

N

In the far left of the slide pinned between the barge wharf and the bridge,.

N

And next slide.

N

Is the area where the north extension will go as you can see the floating dock.

N

In the middle, there needs to get relocated and then there's an existing pier from the old.

N

Bridge they'll need to get removed as part of the construction and then short side. You see, there's.

N

A paved area to the left, where the salt pile is and then the remaining portion of the barge dock.

N

Down to the right and in the middle there I guess it's a grassy knoll, although it's mostly gravel.

N

That area will get paved and then some drainage units will be added and next slide.

N

And this is a south extension, a section of wharf supported on caissons and then.

N

Shore side there's a little bit of grading to match with the existing grades and next slide.

N

This shows a cross-section of what the construction looks like it's: a contemporary construction for a ship dock, large diameter, steel, caissons, 30, inch, diameter.

N

Approximately drilled and socketed into the bedrock their large diameter to reduce the.

N

Number of piles you need in the water and then concrete pile caps and a concrete deck.

N

And then a contemporary fender system, which is the cushion for the ship to birth, against.

N

And uh with that type of defender system it doesn't require any additional piles.

N

And next slide.

N

This shows the north extension to the left and the south extension to the right side.

N

Those are two different views and all the green dots are where the caissons go.

N

I believe there's about 30 on the south extension and about 45 on the north extension next slide.

N

This just shows the north extension in the area of where the dock will interface with.

N

The shoreline it's an existing shoreline that is heavily rip wrapped and it's pretty much.

N

Developed all through the areas where we're doing construction next slide. Oops. Sorry.

N

And this shows the relocation of the uh small boat dock.

N

From the existing location, around the corner and attached to the bar door and next slide.

N

This shows the dredging um approximately 16 000 cubic yards of soil needs to get removed.

N

And then there's some blasting to remove about 2 000 cubic yards of rock.

N

To make that suitable for the birthing of ships next slide.

N

With the shore side alterations, it consists of regrading paving and then the installation of two.

N

Treatment units for the storm water before it heads back into the river and next slide.

N

This shows the two areas of the shore side, improvements uh paving to the south and then.

N

Paving to the north the treatment units- it's a probably a little difficult to tell, but.

N

They're in the far left of the area, um one to the north and then one to the southern.

N

Next slide and I'll hand it over to christine to talk about the environmental, primitive.

M

Great thanks noah. I just want to quickly summarize the environmental efforts that we've completed for.

M

This project, to date, um which kind of laid the foundation for the permitting phase that we're.

M

Now in since the project is federally funded, it did require an environmental review and.

M

Consultation process that you may be familiar with called nepa or national environmental policy act.

M

Consultation completed as part of the nepa process included resources like historic resources.

M

Rear species and protected fish habitat and we worked with the applicable agencies.

M

To identify how to appropriately avoid or minimize impacts to these resources.

M

Measures to protect aquatic species include requiring that dredging and blasting occur between.

M

November 15th and march 15th, when sensitive species are least likely to be in the area.

M

In the river, as well as using a fish detection and startle system to avoid blasting when fish.

M

Are present these and other measures will all be detailed in a blasting plan that will need to be.

M

Submitted to the agencies for approval prior to construction next slide, please.

M

The environmental review process culminated in a nepa document that.

M

Was completed and approved by the federal highway administration in 2019 next slide.

M

With our nepap nepa approval in hand.

M

The project is now moving into the permitting phase and will require the permits listed here.

M

The application before you today is the new hampshire des dredging, phil perma application.

M

Applications for the other permits listed will be submitted to des and the army corps over the next.

M

Few months, the proposed work that noah described will result in impacts within the river itself.

M

That will entail the area of dredge 55 000 square feet of impact, as well as impact from the wharf.

M

Extensions, the north and south extensions, which total just under 27 000 square feet of impact.

M

There are no vegetated wetlands or eel grass beds in the project area.

M

And, as noah mentioned, all impacts are to the river channel adjacent to the existing wharf.

M

Infrastructure and along the disturbed shoreline next slide. Please.

M

To meet state and federal regulate regulations, the project does require.

M

Mitigation to be provided for jurisdictional impacts, mitigation requirements will be met.

M

Through the funding of the cuts, cove living shoreline restoration project, which is.

M

Located about 500 feet away from the port itself adjacent to the new portsmouth gateway park,.

M

About 200 feet of this restoration effort was completed a few years ago.

M

The remaining 600 feet of the shoreline in that area will be completed, with funding provided by.

M

The division of courts of ports and harbors as mitigation for this project, as well as the.

M

The previous project, we reviewed with you, um the maine wharf rehab project,.

M

I believe that's all we have for slides, so we are happy to answer any questions you have.

B

Okay, thank you. Thank you alvin. um Yes, so I think christine.

C

um My question should be directed toward you so repeatedly in this document that we have.

C

It states that a couple of critical timing uh issues are anticipated, and one of them is that.

C

Any sort of uh dredging should occur between november 15th and march 15th. I.

C

Think the blasting and the dredging and then that transport of the dredged materials should occur.

C

Be completed by april, and all of that is due to fish species and the turtles that are expected.

C

To be present at the time is that, when uh it's anticipated that these things will be conducted.

M

That will actually become a condition of the permit.

M

Which will need to be stipulated in the contract, so it will need to be.

M

The construction schedule itself will need to accommodate those restrictions.

C

Okay, so I'm looking at the construction sequence in the back and it um since it.

C

States november, 15th and march 15th: that's the plan is that the blasting and dredging would.

C

Occur at that time and then the dredged material would take two to four weeks to transport up to.

C

The a rental disposal site and that would be completed by april- is that correct.

M

Yes, that's the plan and if I could just clarify the dredge.

N

Dredge soils would be transported throughout that duration that entire window, as once they load a.

N

Dredge scale then they'd haul it out to the site for disposal. Okay right now, we're in the process.

N

Of doing the testing to determine where the material is suitable to be disposed of very.

N

Likely we'll go to the isles of shoals site where the material from the river is currently going.

N

But, alternatively, it would go short side somewhere if it's not determined to be suitable.

C

Okay, so the whole arundel thing is not necessarily the case here. uh I think the.

N

Rundle site's closed now, if I'm correct, I think now the site that's being used. Is the iso show.

N

Site yeah, because these um the dates and in this are like twice in that permit yeah. I think.

N

When this started, um it was at the arundel site and since then the isil shoal site opened up for.

N

The uh dredging of the river basin turning basin okay, but I'm going to assume that since it talks.

C

About several different types of sea turtles being on the shoreline from massachusetts to maine. That.

C

The transport would still need to be completed by april. uh Yes, thank you. That is correct.

F

Any other questions.

D

Well, yeah yeah go ahead. um This is just sort of a tangential thing, but um since the isles of.

D

Shoals wasn't listed here. um What's the impact of this stuff going out to isles of shoals and.

D

And what what is it, what is it what's the quality of it and what happens when it's out there and.

D

What's it doing to the environment, absolutely fair question the uh aisles the process requires.

N

um uh It runs through the army corps of engineers, approval, as well as the des.

N

Generally, a preference is that the material goes off-site before it comes on shore.

N

Second, considerations are, if you can have room for the material to go.

N

On the owner's facility, all this uh facility doesn't have any room for disposable, dredge spoils.

N

And then the last preferred alternative is a landfill and they'll use it typically as cover.

N

If it's suitable, although the preference is that the landfill is the last choice, so.

N

They'll go through testing, we'll sample the material. What is anticipated, the material will be.

N

Very granular in nature and therefore it will not hold contaminants and if that's, what's determined,.

N

Then the army corps of engineer would allow approval for disposal at the offshore sites.

M

And noah just to add to that the site that we're referring to as well as the former caper rental.

M

Site are both federally regulated federally designated disposal sites, offshore disposal.

M

Sites so the the presence of the site, the use of the site, has been through an environmental review.

M

Process led by the army corps to get approval to have this site in existence. Okay, thank you.

F

Any other questions.

F

Seeing none does someone want to make a motion.

F

Allison I'll make a motion that we write a letter of in support of this project.

C

To the wetlands bureau and um just asking them to pay particular attention to the.

C

Time of year uh required for the blasting, dredging and transporting of the dredged materials.

C

To avoid impact on marine species I'll second, that, yes, second, discussion.

F

No ready for a motion or a vote all in favor.

F

uh Against or not in favor, oh not in favor, sorry, I thought you said again. No sorry.

F

Yes, not in favor, okay, all in favor, all of them, nobody opposed. Yes, that's the word.

N

Thank you for your time. Thank you. Thank you very much.

B

um So I think you should move up other business, I think so then bob can get out of here.

A

Okay, do you need a motion on that or yeah? I think so, just to take up other business.

A

Before the conservation lands update, he's not here yet right he's here: oh do you want to go.

B

You want to do other business, I think so, okay, all right, so anybody want a motion to move other.

B

Business up um the conservation land update is going to be a non-public yeah. So I I do have.

C

Something I'd like to say and okay. I think we have the motion to move it. Okay, switch.

F

Extending time do we need to do it, yeah wait for that yeah, so I'll make mention that we run the.

C

Meeting past 5 30 timeline seconded I'll second, that discussion, no, all those in.

B

Favor anybody opposed okay and then a motion to switch other business up.

C

I make a motion to move other business forward ahead of the conservation commission lands.

B

Second, second samantha all those uh discussion, all those in favor posed.

B

Okay motion: okay, thank you go ahead. Okay, I don't know if anybody else was able to attend, but.

C

There was um sent out by barbara from the new hampshire association of conservation commissions.

C

There was a zoom that happened with the durham conservation commission and they had a speaker.

C

Come who I thought was excellent and I would love to either offer something like that sponsored by.

C

The conservation commission to the public because he said a lot of really wonderful things about why.

C

Native species are so important and how you know the native species actually are the ones that.

C

Are going to be affected by insects but they're, mostly caterpillars, and so you get more moths.

C

And butterflies with native species and that um that caterpillars are really important.

C

In the bird life cycle that a lot of the um the very young birds can't accept.

C

Hard seed or anything like that or beetles, and so they need these caterpillars to thrive, and so.

C

He made just such a wonderful case for uh native plantings and um that I think that having some.

C

Sort of educational session like that for the public would be really beneficial. I mean he.

C

Was sort of talking to all the converts because it was just the conservation commission, people.

G

They had a zoom presentation yeah. I wonder if we can just get the zoom presentation and put it up.

G

On our website yeah, maybe I don't know I I can inquire about it: yeah, okay, yeah! If you get that.

A

I can I can try to get it set up for a website or maybe okay have the commission look at it and.

A

Approve putting on the website with on the commission's website, something like that.

A

And then promoting it yeah. That would be awesome. Thank you. Other business.

B

um I I had two a couple of things and others can go after um one was just to double check.

B

With everybody, there was a wetlands expedited minimum impact application sent out by isaac for.

B

um 910 sagmore ave we're just checking in we have 10 days total, so you need to get back to me. I.

C

Actually didn't understand what was different than it was just that it was a state instead of the.

A

Conditional use that we did so yeah, they hadn't picked the state they hadn't done. The statement we.

B

Had seen it as a cup yeah, and they they actually made the changes that we asked them to make in.

B

That state one, so that's the only difference really. Okay, I'm good with it and the same question.

B

Yeah yeah everybody. Anybody want to take time to look at it sure you know. Okay, I did the same.

G

Visit today, yeah, I already told them. Where is this responded to isaac already? Okay, I can just check.

B

In with mika then and make sure isaac now and then um and the other is that we're going to.

B

Have a in addition to today um we do have the conservation, commission, rules and procedures.

B

Discussion, um but also uh in addition to that, we're going to have a separately scheduled meeting.

H

With the whole conservation, commission and um legal from portsmouth and planning and.

B

I think that's it right: okay, yeah, okay, so on topics that have been brought up.

B

Before that are constant concerns, so, um and peter will be scheduling that meeting.

B

uh For the next in the next couple of weeks, it will be scheduled for.

A

Hopefully, the next the week after our site, walk or the one after as soon as we can get one time.

D

So kind of hold that in reserve the week after the site, walk well, we'll send out a dual poll right.

D

We'll get that thing from isaac check the boxes, yeah it'll come from isaac and then so the one.

B

That is on the agenda for other business was the conservation, commission rules and procedures.

B

Discussion, so we able to do that now. We have bob here to talk to that. Well, if there's questions.

A

I don't know that he has to present necessarily, but um I think the private session, though right.

A

That's a separate, separate item that is actually the conservation commission lands update.

B

It's going to go to private sector. Oh that's! Going to go private, yeah, okay! Yeah! It's confusing! Do you.

A

Want me to just introduce it sure I mean there was. There was concern that the vote of the commission.

A

For the chair and vice chair was was done improperly and and um the commission always.

A

Votes in public and it, however, the problem is the reason that was brought up is because our.

A

Rules and procedures say that the vote was to be is to be held by secret ballot, and I had checked.

A

Both the planning board and the conservation commission, for some reason, have this in their.

A

Rules- and I just wanted to clarify that it's it's, it hasn't been the case and.

A

It's it should be changed in the rules, but um the reality is, you can't have a meeting.

A

In private private, you can't have a vote um by secret ballot according to state law, and we just.

A

Brought bob here in case there's, questions or people want to clarify that, because we want to.

A

Make sure people understand that the way the vote went was according to the way the commission's.

A

Always voted, but not necessarily according to what the rules and procedures say. So there's a little.

A

Deviation but there was justification for that. um Well, I had a question and.

D

I hadn't brought this up with anybody, but um it has nothing to do whether it's secret or whatever.

D

But I was kind of um because it was my first no second meeting. I guess, but.

D

I would have thought that you would have um had all the you know. Anybody interested in.

D

Being the chair and you'd um you'd list those people off and then so everybody would know.

D

Who was who wanted to be chair and then you'd vote accordingly, but suddenly it was um you know I.

D

I motion that we make barbara and, and I guess you were yeah and you were on zoom, so I didn't.

D

Even notice yeah, I had no idea, um so I was just sort of like what um I just felt like.

D

What happened because suddenly uh you know because then a no vote like if you had the.

D

Majority that was automatically you were, um uh you know you were the new chair and vice chair and.

D

uh Henry had had broken in, but apparently that was sort of breaking a rule by breaking.

D

In to question about the motion- and he just wanted to nominate somebody else so.

D

That I haven't said anything to anybody and I did want to bring it up at some point. So I'm glad this.

D

This came up um and I almost brought it up at our orientation, but I was a little like what.

D

Is going on and it kind of felt like the worst election, I had ever been a part of.

D

So anyway, I think that's why it would be really helpful. I don't know if you've experienced it.

C

Yet but we really should have some sort of a training for new people, we'll also understand.

C

The conditional use permits what we're governed by what it is that we can actually have a say about.

C

And things like that right, we have this this past last last, one yeah last week like an.

D

Orientation yeah, we just had it just before, um so we had the orientation um and beverly the new.

D

Person came she, and so I think it was a. It was a little unusual because she hadn't been come.

D

On board yet- and things like that, but um but I had already been to three meetings by the time I.

D

Got and I I was looking for orientation, but I do know the six six points of criteria for.

D

The cp, because I have written letters um uh addressing those points, so I had that but.

D

Yeah, I didn't have any idea of um procedure here and how to you know whatever so my apologies.

D

For yeah- but I mean like, um but you know actually just reading the ordinance that governs those six.

B

Things that everybody comes in front of us with regarding why.

C

We should grant them a permit, but it really um describes more about what our role is.

C

That wouldn't have helped with the election thing, but what the election yeah no.

C

I I think yeah more experience being on the commission might have helped with that wow.

G

Well, my only one experience was last year and we had a specific discussion about the rule before.

G

We decided to make any motions to nominate anybody at all. You know we had a discussion about it. You.

G

Know- and this was like damn- it was all done and be honest- I'm not interested in being the chair.

G

My interest in expressing uh something about it was I'm interested in having the ability to get.

G

Something on the agenda, any city, council or any meeting can put something on the agenda.

G

You know I tried with frustration to try to get stuff on the agenda with at least.

G

Have a discussion amongst the commission members and you couldn't get it on there.

G

You know so that's been my frustration and I looked back at some of the the minute.

G

Meetings from before, because you would say allison that's the way we always did it well. I looked at.

G

2020 and there are actually three separate meetings before a chair was elected.

G

Because you had a long time, member leaving steve miller, there was a big discussion about. Maybe we.

G

Should get a new person a new appointee, let's get some more people appointed and how broad should.

G

Our agenda be, should we be doing other things other than just you know, conditional use, promise.

G

So that happened in 2020, so I was really looking for a discussion about what do we want to do this.

G

Year, what we'll accomplish you know? I mean that was my my intention and focus. You know.

A

And I think that is part of why I want to schedule a meeting, a public meeting just to discuss.

A

Rules and procedures, so it's not as much just conservation, commission business but talk about.

A

How the commission works and that the point of this this discussion was really just to talk.

A

About the election and the point of this, the next one will be to discuss. You know open it.

A

Up a little more to all those things, how the how the commission works, how the rules and procedures.

A

Work how things get on the agenda that kind of thing but to but to abigail's point I think.

A

The way that the election went was there was a motion made and that's typically how, if you.

A

Watch a election at any of the boards, someone will make a motion to elect someone as chair.

A

And they might make a motion to elect a slate of chair and vice chair yeah. And that's what.

A

Happened at that meeting so once emotions on the floor following the procedures that typically are.

A

Followed is that you have when you have a motion on the floor. That motion has to be followed up and.

A

Voted on, okay should have or disposed a better motion have been like we'd like to open it up.

D

To see who's um who's interested in being chair, though, as opposed to just going to an election.

A

But but once a motion is made and and maybe bob can speak to it more but but what happens when a.

A

Motion is made. Is it's more about being followed through procedural process? Yeah? Okay, I think.

A

All right, maybe it's just really weird, and that was my first day and then you turned to me for.

D

A vote and I'm like: why are you picking up me or calling on me first, I'm like I'm, the newbie.

B

So anyway, yeah I don't know if you want to speak to that bob.

A

I think the only the questions.

A

So the the clarification bob is just about when emotion is made.

A

What what can happen next.

H

Once a motion is made and seconded, then the motion is in front of the board.

H

The commission and the commission has to deal with that motion.

H

It can whatever act. The commission should take to deal with that motion either takes.

H

Precedence over the motion itself or does not, uh if the uh and it's like, if this is a.

H

Kind of a logical thing, for example, if a motion is to approve something and that someone makes the.

H

Motion that uh that approval knock plate take place before a certain date, then the logical.

H

Progression of those two things, as the second motion takes precedent over the first, because.

H

It logically has to be decided before the first, and so that has to be voted first uh and then.

H

The main motion return to um the uh the obligation of the commission is to deal with each motion.

H

Using the that basic rule, um so uh an amendment to the motion, for example, has to be.

H

Taken up before the vote on the motion itself is passed.

H

Because it will be irrelevant to amend the motion after could have passed, for example, um and the.

H

Commission has a duty to stay with that motion until it ultimately disposes of it by passing it.

H

Denying it taking some other action, postponing it whatever. So what about the seconding part.

H

I'm sorry, you said and seconded right until the motion is second, it is not in front of the mission.

I

Yes, that's not the procedure we followed. If I was running the meeting, the chair should give.

H

Give the commission a you know a reasonable amount of time for somebody to offer a second. You can ask.

H

For a second, and if the second is not forthcoming, then there is no motion in front of the commission.

B

So could somebody ask- and we got one right so- is that okay, sorry to interrupt you? Oh no.

D

No, no, I probably interrupted we did ask for a second and we got one. Is that okay to ask.

B

For the second, before the other, you could ask for a second yeah. Okay, I don't know, go ahead.

D

um So if somebody motions for something but then somebody else motions for something else,.

D

Before the first one gets seconded is that does that happen? Is that or just.

D

Do you have is the way that works until unless that second motion is germaine, meaning relates.

F

To the first one right right right and it's out of order and should be ruled out of order. Okay,.

D

So you kind of yeah you motion something. Then you kind of wait to see if it gets a second.

D

And then you go from there: yes, okay right! If it doesn't get a second, then there is no motion.

H

Here you have a clean slate in front of you if it gets seconded and then another motion gets made.

H

The chair makes the decision is that dominic germain to the motion in front of the.

H

Commission, in which case you deal with it, in accordance with those orders of precedence that I.

H

Describe and if it's not your main, you rule it out of order: okay, okay, okay, I was just uh gonna ask so.

F

A lot of times for a conditional use, permit, you know we'll say seconded for discussion purposes,.

F

And is that you know kind of no difference whatsoever between second for discussion purposes,.

H

And just saying second, so in that when we got after we make a motion at second did we kind of.

F

Go into discussion, that's when it could have been brought up more readily about who else wants to.

F

Run for the for the position in terms of this, that certainly sounds like that right. That's.

H

The legitimate discussion sure okay take place right, so that's kind of when it should have.

F

Been kind of filled out and okay for the election I was just. I think that is what happened. That's.

A

What happened? Okay, yeah, but it just we kind of got there not as smoothly. I just feel like we.

F

Had to talk about it to make sure yeah, that's the procedure. That, naturally, is how this should have.

B

Gone smoothly because henry said yeah yeah, so then we had the discussion to acknowledge that ed was.

B

Interested in yeah, so the motion was to discuss you as chair and you, as vice chair, as opposed to.

D

No okay, it wasn't to make them right, it is, but then it goes into distance that automatically.

F

Goes into right and that's when you can talk about it, yeah, okay, that I did not know at the.

D

Time and so that's why I was like what it was already okay. I hope this isn't gonna.

H

Hurt rather than help, but it's important to always keep in mind that the rules of procedure are.

H

Intended just to facilitate the orderly conduct of business right and if business is being conducted.

H

In an orderly way, strict adherence to the rules procedure really serves no purpose.

H

And in fact would interfere with the operation of the commission, so I think you know a slavish.

H

Analysis of rules solely for the sake of looking at rules, I don't think it's consistent for the.

H

Purpose with for which those rules exist, the chair really is is the controlling factor in.

H

All of this, and if, if business is being conducted in an orderly way and nobody objects, then there.

H

Is nothing wrong with business continuing in that fashion, somebody objects. Well then, now the chair.

H

Has to take control and control means dropping back closer to a strict interpretation of rules.

B

So the other thing that we basically is the rsa and was there any questions about that as far as.

B

The secret ballot goes at this point that we have for about. Well, I can tell you my my view on it is.

H

That uh the preamble, the right to know law, which I presume you all have, if you don't have, I would.

H

Certainly, give it to you at any time makes it perfectly clear that the legislative policy for of.

H

Gov all governmental entities in the state of new hampshire is to conduct public business in public.

H

And the exceptions uh when that occurs are drafted narrowly.

H

And should be applied narrowly and the court cases are really clear about that.

H

There are times when public bodies have to meet in public. uh You know you you deal with one tonight.

H

I think, and uh then you know, obviously if your city is negotiating for the purchase of a piece.

H

Of property, for example, you can't conduct your discussions on your side of the negotiations in.

H

Public, so that's one of those limited exceptions and there are a half a dozen others get to be new.

H

Ones every day, legislators just just put one in uh there's an act of putting one in now so so.

H

But, given that the preamble's clear policy that, to the extent possible all public business need.

H

To be conducted in public, therefore, it says this statute is to be construed strictly. To that end,.

H

So that when there is any doubt you, the dissol, the doubt should be resolved in.

H

Favor of conducting your business in public and that that's clear too, I don't think anybody would.

H

Dispute that point, and uh so for those reasons uh it is always my advice that to.

H

Every city agency and always followed- I might add, that there's no secret ballot inside of a.

H

Council meeting, for example, or a planning board meeting or a commission meeting in new hampshire.

H

And now ted's pointed out that there is a provision in this in the statute which.

H

Would allow elections to have secret ballots, but I have interpreted that provision to mean election.

H

In the narrow sense, consistent with what I just said, that uh election of municipal officers.

H

uh For example, uh municipal officers, not members of boards and commissions, so that's my view.

H

And I I do acknowledge that it, somebody else could read some of those laws.

H

The same way, particularly the election thing, but it's not the way I read it, it's not the way. I've given advice all these years and.

H

To my knowledge, no one has conducted a secret palette in any city board. Commissioner agency.

H

In the time I've been here.

B

Okay, so we would need to change the um our rules and procedures yeah. Let me address.

H

That it turns out that- and I only found out about this a few weeks ago, myself.

H

The planning board somehow got a set of rules and regulations from some place and they did not. They.

H

Were not written here, weren't written by the legal department, weren't even read by the legal.

H

Department, it appears that the conservation commission might have done the same thing.

H

And they are rules and regulations that can tell they were not drafted.

H

For portsmouth, because they are plainly written for towns, talk about select boards, for example,.

H

And so that is how you have rules and regulations that somehow slipped into the system that we.

H

Didn't write in and at least from the city's legal department do not always agree with.

B

So we should still change what we've got in the books, though, even though they're not written.

B

For us, because they're misleading yeah, it seems like the commission- can change them with the vote.

A

It says here six votes in support of a duly called commission meeting. Okay, you want to put it we'll.

B

Put it on the agenda for the next meeting sure, okay, now we're moving on to conservation plan.

G

Update because I have an update- and it's just fortuitous- that robert is here well, we we have a.

A

We have one another one, so it'd be good to hear yours, but we the one we have. We need.

A

To go into a non-public forum, okay, so um would you rather say it now or wait till we go into.

A

The non-public well, no, I I assume, I know which one it is and I and a butter called me about it.

G

Okay- and we had a long discussion yesterday, so I didn't know if it's still not it's now.

G

Republican, no, we need to go to a non-public on the oh on your on yours, you mean, or on no no. I.

A

Know what I think we're talking about? Okay, the one we already saw yeah. We should go into a non-public.

A

All right, okay, all right! Do we want to make a motion to go into a non-public session or wait.

B

No more questions on this right. Sorry, no! All right next motion that we go into an unpublic session.

B

I'll second, the second of the test: okay, all those in favor the motion. Just the motion needs to state.

H

The statutory reason for going okay, so that'll, put you on the spot. There you go. I have no idea.

A

I had to discuss conservation lands. That's I can give you one in a few seconds.

C

uh I make a motion that we go into a non-public session to discount.

C

To discuss conservation, land acquisition, yeah and that will be pursuant to our say, 9183 roman 2,.

H

Section: d: okay, okay, you just said that so I'm good right, I suck at.

B

Yeah, so we probably need to go in the other room.