City of Portsmouth, New Hampshire Historic District Commission, 1 Mar 2023

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3.1.2023 Historic District Commission

A

uh Elton shaker online to do the finishing roots industry slide, [applause].

B

All right uh welcome to the march 1st historic district community meeting. um If nobody said it.

B

Yet happy birthday portsmouth there I thought I'd get that out of the way um the board's actions in.

B

These matters has been deemed to be quasi-judicial in nature. If any person believes any member of the.

B

Board has a conflict of interest. That issue should be raised at this point or it will be deemed wave.

B

I would like to make some introductions and a couple explanations missing here on my far.

B

Right, I have joanna landis good evening. Yes, um we are missing. Dr dan brown he's off uh going.

B

Down white slopes, but we have martin ryan good evening and reagan rudick good evening. My name.

B

Is john wyckoff next to me would have been margo doring but um she's off enjoying sunny spain. Then.

B

We have nick here good evening and uh city council. Rich blaylock has called and said that he will be.

B

Coming through the door any second, now uh david adams good evening and karen bufar good evening,.

B

um So both joanna and karen will be full voting members as we have two vacancies, and um so we have.

B

Don't see approval of any minutes on this february 1st of june yeah.

B

Wait: yeah, yeah, okay, but it's under administrative approvals, my bad I'm looking at it. So we have.

B

Minutes from last month, here's mr blaylock. Now um I just have one comment for the.

C

Minutes, which is just a clarification of um john schnitzler, not schnitzel so.

C

Okay, it's a it is a long name but uh yeah. Yes, that's that's something that um our secretary yeah.

B

Okay, take care of the other thing that I noticed is she kept calling him, mr brown and I think after.

B

40 years of being a doctor, that certainly deserves the title of dr brown, dr dan brown.

D

I'm gonna have to recuse. I was not attended at that meeting and okay, neither were you.

B

Okay, so um we need to have uh the minutes approved. Oh fine, I will move that. We approve.

C

The minutes with these um minor changes uh for february the february meeting first, second,.

B

Okay, all those in favor aye, those against okay. We've got that so now uh we're into administrative.

B

Approvals with um nick first I'd like to say that um isn't the first one 11 chief street is.

B

That postponed, yes until until the april meeting alrighty. So um if we could have a motion for that.

E

uh Well, we didn't receive, as far as I know, we didn't receive any.

E

Documentation until this afternoon for this application, which is far past, the deadline.

E

Okay, that's why otherwise so the deadline? Just so you know, if you can, if it wasn't submitted.

E

Today permanently, if you did you're all set for the next meeting, if it wasn't submitted.

E

Okay, yeah the deadlines last week to get it in okay. Sorry about that.

B

Sorry so we sat for next week no next month, all righty. um So we did we vote on that. No, but I'll.

C

I'll move that we postpone 11 sheet street to next month; okay, second, second, all those in favor.

F

Aye aye against. um We have a couple other postponements, sometimes we'll get to it.

B

While I can say the word here request to postpone christopher daniel freud uh 37 prospect street.

B

um Do we know when that is postponed next month next month? Okay, looking for a motion.

B

On there so moved second, all those in favor, aye, aye and against okay. um I think that, because.

B

One person does not um cannot uh vote on 15 administrative approval, 15, which is 64 vaughn.

B

Street nick, if you could read that one first, john I'm sorry, um I I'm out on number eight.

E

Number: eight yeah, okay, okay, we'll do that! One pull that one out yep a 64 bond. uh This is an.

E

Application that's been before us recently and there were a couple of stipulations regarding.

E

The shed roof over the uh dr brown's clubhouse, uh the the roof of pertinence to get onto the.

E

Roof deck. There was a request to extend the roof line over the exit and egress doors.

E

um And there was a second stipulation to modify the shape and design of the stairwell at the.

E

Opposite end of the roof deck, so I think mark mohler. I don't know if you're here for that.

E

Mark yep, maybe he could fill in any blanks.

G

Good evening mark muller from jsa design representing the applicant noble cure. I.

G

Can point out the two stipulations that nick was just referencing the the center overbuild? Yes, the.

G

uh Stair and elevator enclosure, the the intent was to or the request was to add, to extend.

G

Shed roof pitch a little bit further over the doors um we we have a door leading from the.

G

Elevator lobby to the roof deck, and what had happened is that literally the same.

G

Week we had that last hearing we had made some internal design modifications based on owner's.

G

Request and it adjusted the solution a bit it. It didn't change the nature of of the request and.

G

The solution and but what it did is it extended the width of the shed as we had as you had last.

G

Seen it- and I think you it's it's- it's best seen exactly right there. So what we did is.

G

That we extended the shed, so it is essentially symmetrical relative to the to the deck. So as.

G

As one is looking at that over build, the left and right sides uh will now match, and you you'll have.

G

A series of supporting brackets that support the the tail, if you will of this extended shed.

G

Okay, there's some pictorials at the end of axons. That probably show it based, but you.

G

Can see it exactly nick is pointing to the extended piece there and, and then we also.

G

uh Adjusted the the stair that uh that nick is circling right now it was a a very asymmetrical.

G

um Elevation as as uh seen from the von maul side, and it was basically uh mimicking the shape of.

G

This, the headroom and the stair itself coming up from the fourth floor up onto the roof and.

G

We've simply um uh created a more symmetrical again uh mass that tends to balance the the.

G

Symmetry of the overbuild at the other side of of the roof deck made it a bit simpler and.

G

The the essentially those are the two massing adjustments that were made. There was a subtle.

G

Change to the footprint of the deck itself, and it really is uh just a byproduct of that.

G

Simplification to that second egress stare of just infilling a a corner, um the and the reason.

G

We included these. We just wanted to make certain that that adjustment that we made to that second.

G

Egress there, the one that's closest to von maul, because we did we did increase the mass of that.

G

Closest to the worth lot side, we included these just to confirm that, in that same view,.

G

Even though we raised that corner, it's still not visible from uh this vantage point within the lot.

G

So those were included to is there anything else or is well the la and the last piece.

G

Was just a subtle material adjustment and it's uh very subtle, but the the pediment portion of.

G

The dormer that you see on the overbuild in the center we've just infilled that pediment with the.

G

Same material, it's essentially the roof, shingle material, it's the it's being treated the same.

G

Way that all the other dormers that you see around the mansard have been treated, so that's the nature.

G

Of those changes, thank you very much any question for him already yeah. Where are the shingles being.

E

Used uh this looks like a clamored finish here: yeah, that's the older um thanks uh down here.

E

Then yeah, but I'm going to point, wait again: where is it? It was up here right, yeah, just in the okay.

B

You get that nick.

E

Thanks for doing that, okay, if we have no other questions, let's um have a motion.

D

Make a motion to approve, as presented second, all, those in favor all those opposed there. You go.

B

um Now we're going to do number eight 70 court street, okay, 70 court street.

E

70 court street is the mounting of I believe, six condensing units on the.

E

Side of this building this building is that 70 court street was in front of us.

E

Not that long ago, uh for the renovation and conversion, I think to an inn, is the proposed use.

E

And just through happenstance I went through the building last week and ran.

E

Into the building inspector and the general contractor, or somebody related to the general.

E

Contractor who was explaining this application, which I had not yet reviewed and uh when they.

E

Described these units being stacked, which is not what's shown in the application it's described.

E

I'm just going to pull it up, so this is what's on the building today. If you look at the screen, this.

E

Red circle uh shows what's there, this is, this is what um is proposed, but what's proposed is times.

E

Two two rows of three is what they're describing there uh and we had a conversation. I went outside.

E

With the building inspector and the the person I was speaking with windows and it seemed far more.

E

Appropriate, given that cmu block foundation, which isn't beautiful, is relatively prominent.

E

Down the side that these six units would be better going towards the back of the building.

E

Than crawling up the wall over the mud board onto the collaborates, because it's about eight feet to.

E

The top of the second row, so they I think they agreed to do that. There's probably somebody in.

E

The audience uh that can confirm that, but I think it's a better solution and the other aspect was.

E

Putting a couple of plants in front of the first unit on the court street side and introduce.

B

Yourself too, please andrew simonis and uh part of davenport llc, and so yes, that is accurate, nick and.

H

We certainly agree if that is the pleasure of the board to have them in a vertical.

H

Excuse me a horizontal fashion on the side of the building at ground level, rather than the vertical.

H

Then we can certainly do that they're 32 inches wide there's about 12 inches in between each unit.

H

And six units in a horizontal line, and so those will be placed on a concrete pad.

H

And, if that's what we would like to do and that's what, if that's the direction you want to go in, we.

H

Can certainly submit a drawing of that following the approval and we're happy to do that. Questions.

C

Make sense: okay, good I so I would suggest if you're, if there aren't.

E

More questions are there more questions, david, one thing that has not been mentioned: if the.

A

The line, sorry in the foundation, it's it's already going through the foundation yeah. Thank you. Yeah.

H

Right right, there's a small lip to hide them underneath the right so that basically, the.

E

Main feed goes in the foundation, the cmu block, not not any of the clubs or the mud board. What.

E

You're, describing are the line, feeds that get to the penetration point into the building and.

E

They're going to tuck up underneath the the mud board, for some reason has about a four or four and.

E

A half inch shelf protruding over those cmu blocks, so they can run all the conduit up underneath that.

E

Really um yeah, you could stick all your fingers under there, so it's good, so I would suggest the.

E

Stipulation be that the six units be horizontally, placed I'm guessing you're, going to have to step.

E

Your concrete pads, because that's falling away that slope yeah as you go down the building so.

E

You probably have two units on each pad, perhaps or each pad is each unit, because they're going.

E

To be 18 inches off the ground for the snow snow uh anyway, I want to make sure the stipulation's.

E

Worded properly, so they don't have to come back. I understand that this is also the matter of.

B

um Shut offs each one of these units has to have an exterior shut off. Well, it's on the unit. It's.

I

On the unit right, the it is on the unit, correct, yeah, there's nothing, no power supply that has a.

B

Shut off no circuit, breaker right there double 30 or whatever it's internal, it's internal.

B

Very good, so I would suggest, with the stipulation, be something like the the.

E

Six proposed units shall be placed horizontally uh behind the second window from court street.

E

Towards the rear of the building and landscape, be adding added in front of the first unit.

B

Is that what we're doing for shielding? I think I think it will work.

E

Opinion of one yeah, you certainly don't want to build a screen around six of them.

B

I don't know you really just want to just lock this off in the edge.

B

It doesn't look like really good soil, though, is it it's crushed, gravel, yeah, they're gonna have.

H

To so it stands to be improved anyway, and now you're gonna have to improve it all right. I.

C

Move that we approve this with the stipulations that nick just right.

B

All right, so um all those in favor say hi hi.

A

It's got a number two thanks for taking the lead on that one nick.

E

It's luck. I I got there: okay, yeah! Thank you. Thank you, andrew okay,.

E

uh Where do you want to go? Anybody else have a anything you want to pull.

E

Out because you can't vote okay, so we'll start at 15, congress go back to the top.

E

15 congress: uh this is an awning removal over the. Let me get it pull it up.

E

E

Removal of existing awning that that's, basically it uh they are going to replace the awning with a.

E

Sign but the sign we're not sure yet whether the sign uh they'd like to have a three-dimensional.

E

Sign out here, I'm just going to tell you in case it comes back it's another one of those.

E

uh Inserting myself into the application so they're removing the existing awning for the.

E

Thirsty moose, which they have a right to do, if you guys agree to take the awning off, because.

E

It's not being replaced with an awning. The sign that you see in their application meets the sign.

E

Requirements what they'd like to do in addition to that flat um wall, sign that you see in the.

E

Images have a three-dimensional beer mug, stick off the building with the thirsty moose on it. They're.

E

Presumably their logo and they have a right to add that on but like on market street yeah, I mean yeah.

E

And you know one of the one of the things we discovered. I guess some of us discovered and.

E

Some of us already knew was that when we did the design guidelines and developed the sign section.

E

Portsmouth is pretty unique in having these really cool three-dimensional signs in many.

E

Of our downtown businesses, so they had a lot of interest to the building. I'm sure some of.

E

Them are better than others, but we have a lot of really good three-dimensional side.

E

So the these guys to get a three-dimensional beer, mug.

E

With their logo on, it are likely going to be over the limit for how big that object can be.

E

And if it works, I'm encouraging them to go to the board of adjustment and get that relief and then.

E

They need to come back here, so you'd see it: okay, just sort of fyi. Why are you assuming it's going.

J

To be over, the limit, like they've, already shown us what the size would be and it's a few square feet.

E

Over, what's allowed they're tricky to measure and I'm not sure our ordinance does a very good job.

E

Because a lot of our three-dimensional signs are way over what's allowed and they seem just fine. So.

B

So we're actually just doing the awning we're just doing the awning and we're not doing thirsty moves.

B

No, no okay! Good! Okay! Can I just ask questions. It looks like there's uh taking over the side.

D

They're, taking over the business to the the middle one, yeah the middle and that's not part.

D

Of this application, what they're going to do to change entrances and things like that? No, if they.

E

And if they are changing entrances, which I don't know, they would need to come back here. Okay, this.

F

Is simply to remove those two awnings you see on the screen and that's it good call. Martin.

B

Swing right along okay, tricky here, uh 57 salter! This is another mechanical.

E

Piece of equipment here- I'm guessing this- has already been installed. It looks pretty new.

E

I don't, I did not get to the site for a variety of reasons. I I can't believe this is visible.

E

From many places the caption says the existing condition condenser shown proposed condenser in.

C

The same area, wow that looks pretty new, um so okay, well knowing that's the location and that.

E

It sits uh back here with this little red dotties. I think we're all pretty. Most of us are familiar.

E

With the property from this application and doing our sitewalk, that that is not a visible location.

E

That the only thing that's missing here is the screen and I'm not sure they need one myself.

B

I'm surprised on what it's sitting on, but that's got nothing to do with us yeah. That's that's a.

B

Lot of them are sitting on that looks like a couple four foot ladder, extensions, that's.

E

What they come with, it's remarkable: they stand like that. To be honest, yeah.

E

Okay, any anything with that keep moving. Okay, we're gonna! I I why don't we go through the ones.

E

That I thought were easier and leave the tbds that, because I think there are some presenters here and.

E

They're, you know 60 pen hollows got a few okay. If that works, so we'll go to 63 uh islington street.

E

Which is a new glass storefront, uh I'm guessing what happened here is somebody drove into it.

E

So they're proposing to replace that class and not alter the.

E

Existing appearance of yeah, it seems, I know, and it's too bad- that they.

B

Would not use this as an opportunity to at least put in a classic storefront that would.

B

Go with the age of the building that building's, probably darn close to 100 years old now, but.

B

C'est la vie, okay, they have a right to replace it. So let's go to rock street.

E

We've got another hvac condenser with this one has some feeds going up. Has.

E

A screen on the ground proposed, as shown in the application wow hang on, I have to zoom in on that.

E

There is the line set is proposed to go in the corner, which is a good spot. To put it. um Thank you.

E

I'm trying to see on that they had submitted a preliminary uh application and had that line.

E

Set off the corner- and I proposed to put it in the corner, but it clearly can't terminate.

E

Where the yellow line stops, can it doesn't seem like it should? No, I'm not seeing it. If you look.

E

At the screen, there's a yellow, there's a yellow look at this look at the big screen.

B

Up here there's a yellow line that stops right here. So I guess what's unclear to me.

E

Is where they're going from there um there's nobody in the audience for this rock street.

E

Yes, yes, question! No you'd have to go to the mic. If you're gonna are you related to this application.

K

Yeah, okay, all right hi! My name is john staples. um I'm here to uh for the 63 islington street.

K

Property- I I just wanted to follow up on that, whether or not uh is that something that is is.

K

Approved or yeah we have to go through the mall, it sounds like it will be approved, because no one had.

K

Issue with it. Okay, sorry, sorry, uh yeah no worries. I appreciate it. Thank you all right, you're welcome.

E

All right, sorry back to rock street. uh Let me see if it's in the writing did anyone get.

E

Go through here and and see where that might terminate based on the writing.

F

Well, I run the one: okay run the lines on the interior of the building up to the point of the.

E

Floor of our new unit, then we would run it down to the corner trim of the recess side of the building.

E

So it sounds like they've got an interior chase. Why don't we just.

E

Approve it as as shown and if, if I'm wrong, they'll come back to show where.

E

It's going to penetrate outside the yellow line is that, okay, as long as.

B

um It is painted uh painted to match the whatever the corner all right. Let me give me a.

E

10 seconds to write that down, what number are we on set uh almost five six six. Thank you.

E

Okay, let's go to: let's leave 303 pleasant, go to 44 gardner. This is one that's been before us.

E

Several times- and I think it was a stipulation that the deck and railing be detailed.

E

Before they do the work, so we've got a sketch of the railing system and.

E

The decking, which is a composite material, red cedar- let's see here, okay.

B

It's metal railing and it painted wood railing details. Okay, so.

E

Those are cedar boards, it's just a it's just a brick building, no.

E

44 gardeners you skipped over 303 plus. No, I know I did intentionally: okay, okay, yep.

E

I'm doing things half right, um so it's the deck material and the roof deck, as shown.

E

And that was a stipulation on the prior program, okay, so the next one on my list are. We excuse me.

E

We are skipping, are we supposed to know? I mean the materials look great, but also know what so.

D

They're applied and what they look like and where they go and I well, we we had a plan in.

E

The original approval that showed where the deck was- and I guess it wasn't resubmitted there- was.

E

A stipulation I apologize for not making that clear. This was previously approved and what was.

E

Lacking in that application was the material and they know more and the dimensions of the railing.

F

Apologies, what are you doing? The one we're talking about? 44 gardener.

E

Okay, um let's keep going so, let's do.

E

Let's do 45 richmond. These are the ones that I think are relatively straightforward: 45 richmond.

E

Is again a project that we've approved everything on, except for the details on the greenhouse that.

E

Were on this plan, as previously approved, and that they're they're proposing to change the size of.

E

The greenhouse, that's it so we had the materials and the details, they're, just changing the size to.

E

10 by 10., which I guess conforms to what the manufacturer specifications are for the for.

E

The greenhouse, so all the all the elevations are included in here, but this greenhouse was.

E

Previously approved, I don't recall the previous dimension, but it was not 10 by.

E

10., probably wasn't that different are we good can? Can we just clarify the the finish.

D

Of the glass that it's not mirrored sure you stipulate that and that would be number 11.

E

um Yeah, what lowie or what what's yeah it's it's as long as it's not.

D

Well, she probably hasn't it's better to write it down anyway, uh expect as.

E

So that's gonna. Do it? Oh, it's already a white framework, yeah yep, so there wouldn't need to.

E

Be a stipulation, that's already going to be a low reflection, it's in the order, yeah yeah, so.

E

We good I'm good, okay! Thank you. So no stipulation for that one, um any other questions on richmond.

E

All right, let's go to bow street and I did ask I don't know if anybody's here from post read.

E

If you're here wave your hand, um but I did ask the isaac to contact the applicant just.

E

To make sure we know exactly, oh no, this is hang on sorry, which one have I got up here two blow.

E

Oops hang on this problem. You got 15 of these yeah the problem when uh I can't get the individual one.

B

All right and your staple falls out: um okay, they're they're, seeking approval for a new.

E

Exterior facade trim replacing the wood, oh yeah. This is the one with the panels uh going to a pvc.

E

Painted to match the existing trim. Sorry and it's not a mechanical, it's the panel. So it's underneath.

B

The windows right here you could, if you look at the big screen, you can see the panels where.

E

They've, uh I'm sure they've got some soft wood there, given the location on the ground, but, oh sure,.

E

Everybody else does too, but that's what they're proposing so we'd suggests those two panels under.

B

The window, I think there were four or yeah if you go up to the top. There are four okay yeah.

B

Yeah both sides of the entrance yeah, let's be replicated essentially in kind with with.

E

With a composite material dumping in here, mr crack, no, if you don't mind, this is a not the most.

A

Sensitive thing in the world nor the most unique thing in the world, but as happenstance comes along.

A

To us this, these panels have survived seemingly with some early uh trim elements on them. As the.

A

Storefront of or the of the building, um I'm not saying that from the early 19th century.

A

But I'd say they're from the late 19th century um and the small beads that make the astragal.

A

The small panels in the bits these areas and the outlining uh element are still fragments of them.

A

Are still there if they are going to do that? I I think that the new material, this might be a.

A

Great location for that, but I'd hate to have to make it all out of some square of sawn pieces of.

A

Plastic just to make it you know fit, so it should be replaced in kind if they can do the composite.

E

Yeah all all elements: there are some unique elements on it. I think that be nice. If someone.

A

Could do that? We had a previous applicant down on on islington street to do some pvc material.

A

Replacement uh carving and making some shapes in it, it seems like it's a possibility. It'd be.

A

Wonderful, if they could do that, yeah okay, um I think that's reasonable mike well fyi. There.

B

Is a company I'm not meaning to push it in dover, white wood? Yeah? You know, they've got the cutters.

B

And they'll do this stuff and it's absolutely dreadful, takes phone call yeah, okay, so so the.

E

The panels shall be replaced in kind with composite material, all right, molding, okay, right.

C

E

uh Don't ask me to dig these all back out, so remember that that's your stipulation.

B

um Oh yeah, okay, I'm just writing it down! That was to beau. Let's do 17 pray.

E

Which is that's the condenser? Oh, no, um it's 42 inches, there's the size of it and.

E

It apparently, according to the applicant because of its location, is not visible.

E

Perhaps it is from the second floor of an embody structure, but normally that wasn't our standard.

E

For screening um there's where the conduit would go up, I guess it just into that addition.

E

If you look at the screen, it would be painted to match that's what they're yeah.

E

Yeah I was looking to get a tax map just to confirm that that's.

E

In the rear and not visible, but it is a pretty discrete location.

B

So we're learning something all the time and apparently they're calling.

B

These uh pipe chases that go up the side but they're covering a fortress.

B

Oh yeah, so I'm going to put the painted to match here just in case.

B

Okay, anything else on prey: nope, okay, I think I can do 179. I know tracy is here, but it looked fairly.

E

Straightforward? uh What carla? Oh carla, sorry! This is [music] um removal of the the chimney that was.

E

Never built is number one is carly here, yeah and number two infill of a basement, walkout. um Okay, I.

E

I don't there's the chimney there that again isn't built. If you want to look at the screen, and this.

E

Is what was approved up in the top on the screen? And this is not building? It is shown at the bottom.

E

uh The walkout is, is here and that's being proposed, not not to be excavated into a walkout.

E

That's it oh, so this is the chimney that gave us all yeah or some of us heartburn.

B

The walkout and now apparently they're gone, so I assume that this is just the way it is.

B

Okay, great, is that it nope we've got 28 newcastle ave. Oh, I see we're hopping back.

E

Yeah, that's the last one. Okay in this batch, they are making changes to a previously approved design.

E

Probably at the last meeting for the siding windows and approved for the stone stone, porch.

E

Columns is anybody here for this one it'd be probably easier and cleaner. If you just covered.

E

Those modifications I can pull them up on the screen. Hi, I'm erin barber, I'm the homeowner.

L

um So actually there was some confusion with the permit office on the first two.

L

Items whether there was a dependency on those being approved before the permit could be issued.

L

So we actually submitted the first two elements which are we released it today, the in the.

E

Absence of those two exactly yeah, so I'd like to actually postpone those first two items because.

L

I'm actually not ready, okay, so that is no changing to the siding right now. Yep and no, um I don't have.

L

The rock samples, so if we could push that to next month, that would be great. I would like to, though.

L

Discuss the third element, which is the windows, so um we've completed the interior demolition.

L

And I've discovered that there is one original window in the home and it's a two over one.

K

And so our plans stipulated a six over one window. It's the elevate, it is there anything.

E

In here other than this to look at there is a window schedule. I think it's maybe a 7 16.

E

So, rather, unless everybody wants to go through the schedule, I think.

E

Most people here I have like yeah a photo of the window that we found and.

E

So I think, unless they have questions, it's pretty clear, if that's all you're asking for is to go.

E

From six over one to two over one, yes and use the same quality window, does anybody have an.

E

Issue with that and we will hold the other two items to the next meeting- does that work yep.

E

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, okay, so we just did oh boy yep. As far as I know, uh we just did.

E

Two: three: five: six: eight nine eleven twelve thirteen fourteen and sixteen because didn't.

E

We vote on 64 vaughn, yes, yep, yep yep, okay, so why don't we get a vote on that bunch.

C

That we approve all of those with the stipulations that we talked about for each individual.

B

Do you want to read those all out nick or not? No, no! Second! Second, all those in favor against.

B

All right, no, I think we we didn't do 117 bow because I probably missed it. uh It's simple.

E

What number is that one and that's number ten okay? uh This is the one I was asking for another.

E

Tax map from uh it looks like it looks like something I've never seen in respect to where.

E

They want to put the condenser, but it could have been a better. Is anyone here for that property.

E

um One's moving photo depicts a location where the line sets.

E

Will exit the building? Okay, so they're inside.

E

And this is where the condenser would be mounted on the wall. This image you see up on the screen.

E

I can't imagine you can see this from the street. It also looks like an interior, wouldn't all this.

E

Be inside no couldn't be, are you sure you'd have all these boxes with these wires? I think.

E

We might need to continue this. I I didn't get any more information unless you feel comfortable.

D

We could approve it based on a stipulation that that is the exterior right in here. Okay,.

C

E

Not disputing it just would have been nice. I don't know where that is.

C

Either it's anybody else been back there. I mean.

E

Well, you could approve it uh based on what's been submitted and then, if, when I see it, if it's not.

E

What's submitted I'll, send them back here, how's that that work, good okay, yep, so that have you got.

E

Other ones to why don't you vote on that one, and then we can have the other two people come forward.

B

Number 10 move that we approve that with next day populations, all those in favor aye against.

E

Okay, so if tracy could come up for 60 pen hollow uh these aren't earth-shattering changes, I.

E

Just want to make sure they get presented properly, so moving that counter up there.

B

Right, we've got some trim exhaust fan the the chimney chimney. I don't know if there's.

E

A mural or not anyway, why don't you go good evening? Tracy kozak behalf of the applicant.

M

Yes, we're we're back again. Thank you for having us just a couple tiny little things as we wrap.

M

This up there we can go through them, one by one as we go through the pages really minor.

M

Two other details, but want to capture them all uh so the first one in the center bay. The second.

M

Floor, the center window, the approved drawings, had the strapping bands engaged to the windowsill. This.

M

Has a piece of siding in between the windowsill and the strapping and there's one last piece of.

M

Strap on the far right is the masonry chimney. The granite chimney that had been approved with.

M

The granite as a background as it is built now, but then there was going to be an overlay of.

M

A masonry mural representing the tidal basin of the piscatica river in relief. That is not.

M

Able to happen at this time, it could happen, maybe in the future, but we want to withdraw.

M

It from the approval and just have the plain basic granite that is there: okay. Is there any.

B

Differentiation to the top of this chimney, as we frequently see, is there anything around the top.

B

Of the chimney, where is the bricks being proud, or um there are photos of how it is built on.

M

The very last page- and it has a copper cap to it: okay I'll get there when we get to the end yeah.

M

Hallow street elevation on the first floor to the right of the garage entrance is a takeout window.

M

For food and it's two inches higher that the counter serving the take up.

M

Is two inches higher than approved and on the back of the building, this.

M

Is facing that inner courtyard behind rera there's a 12 inch by 12 inch exhaust vent.

M

For a kitchen equipment piece and it's up at the third floor level,.

M

M

That's a close-up of the trim detail where there's.

M

That piece of siding going between the window and the uh the trim bands.

M

That's the takeout counter on penhalo, it's two inches higher from the sidewalk.

K

The exhaust vent- yes, that was the art mural on the chimney that had.

M

Been approved and the background behind the field stone, that is what.

M

Is there today is just that brownish colored granite? It's a reddish brown.

E

Sorry which one's there today between these two well, those are not the correct colors on.

M

The right that was showing how the stones would be cut, the actual colors are indicated in that.

M

Rendering on the left, with the gray field stone in the brown background, the gray field stone is not.

M

Happening it's just that brownish flat smooth background. Tracy is at the stenson granite.

M

um It is autumn pink by us.

M

Not sure of the supplier.

M

It as as approved yeah, the the back granite, is exactly as approved the.

M

Only thing we're asking for is to not put that gray field stone. On top of it.

M

The last item is: there's a coping band of metal on the very top and that back alley facing the back.

M

Of rira um it we want it to be that green color to match the facial band that wraps around the entire.

M

Building we kind of had a mistake in the approved drawings where it was shown as gray, which didn't.

M

Match it's a continuous datum point around the whole building. We just want it to be consistent.

M

That is all it is all that is all.

B

Okay, any question someone yes, sir um tracy is that the chimney would that match the granite.

N

That's kind of you see there on the ground level kind of uh close, um it's the same finish same.

M

Thermal finish in the same block size, but it is a slightly warmer color. So it's not the cool gray.

M

Of the desert uh desert island pink, it's a uh it's called autumn pink. The chimney will have.

N

Texture like it's not just it's a thermal finish, which means it has a little bit of bumpiness to.

M

It it's the same bumpiness as the granite all around the building, yeah yeah. Thank you.

E

303 pleasant street. Thank you. Thanks. Tracy yep yep, the applicant at 303, pleasant street.

E

Is looking for approval to remove and rebuild the existing rear entry staircase.

E

uh I don't think this is that complicated, but I I thought is anybody here from that location.

E

um Again, I don't think it's overly complicated, but I thought someone might want to speak to it, but.

E

So the existing conditions are here on. If you look at the screen.

E

And they're proposing to replace that existing condition uh with this design. I don't know about.

B

Anybody else, but every time I looked at this plan I was confused. um There seems to be two sets of.

B

Stairs, I I'm not sure, though well there's one to the bulkhead. What uh is that, what you mean or yeah.

A

Currently, there's a hatchimal parade right there that grade that you take up and drop so to speak.

A

Down into a well yeah, underneath the stairs which is relatively hollow, incomplete with a window on.

A

The right hand side uh to get access to uh and probably a coal room or something back in the day.

A

um uh The I mean this is the secondary entrance to the building uh and uh there's no question.

A

That the brickwork that surrounds that makes this stairwell. That's there now or stairway.

A

That's there now is is suffered into over time from moisture and whatnot. It's it's a mess. You.

A

Can certainly understand why they'd want to tidy it up um the part that I don't quite get.

A

Is I guess twofold one is: is it seems like a they're losing a parking space by letting.

A

That new stairwell stretch into the tour of the street that's their problem. I guess.

A

um The other one is, it did do we, how do we deal with the fact that it's a.

A

Long ways down and there's nothing to stop someone by mistake from stepping into that.

A

Well, I think it needs rails, at which point I wonder if it starts getting busy looking.

E

Well, I think I think the answer ultimately, unless.

E

Martin or someone else knows it is the inspection department will make that determination. Yeah.

E

um I yeah I, I can't answer that. It looks like that this is not a door. That's on the granite.

B

The driveway granite it looks like it's something meant to lift up a double double layer, probably of.

B

Tongue and groove boards and set aside and then there would be stairs going down at that point.

B

I don't think there's actually well, I think it's a drop down but yeah like that. Something like that.

A

Yes, they're going to have to increase the size of the excavated area to make get room for a.

A

Staircase they're going to have to tear everything, that's existing there out and dig for footings.

A

To get it below frost, it's it's a project, uh are they gonna have to have a drain down there I mean.

C

It's just gonna throw up one assumes, although that's out of our purse, you probably will yeah.

B

That happens, the only thing that bothers me is so this is constructed now, no, it isn't no.

E

That that's there now that's there now this is proposed. What's on the screen, so it's where it.

E

Is longer it is deeper project information. On the brief description, it does mention that a cast iron.

N

Hand railing oh yeah period, appropriate shape will be made by local blacksmith peter happy. I.

F

Think about that on the upstairs okay, okay, thank you yeah! I get it now, but they may need one.

E

Let them come back well, do you want to come back for the railing or do you want.

E

To no let them come back with a design with their railing that they might need.

B

Okay, why should we hassle with it? Now we don't know what it's going to look! No crystal ball.

A

Time yeah got it so we'll continue that to the next meeting with the instructions that.

E

They, this is an example, get into the inspection department and develop a railing design. Okay, all.

O

Right, I'm echoing rather than yeah I mean I don't know, I don't know why we wouldn't.

C

Just say I would just approve it again with the railing design if whatever is needed, but yeah.

C

Oh they're, here now it's here now I think there's some apprehension that that it might not look.

E

Right with the railing, um that's what I'm hearing from david so there's, maybe not an appetite to.

E

Approve it with that condition. Well, it would maybe they're just going to put that wooden cap back on.

D

These this first drawing that that makes it look like a bunker, is supposed to be sure. Like the what.

D

It looks like underground and the foundation, um I think, you're just improving. What's there.

D

And they intend to put maybe the wooden cap back on but, like you said, we're just guessing.

D

At this point yeah, I I think it's probably best just to have them come back this one.

E

I mean, is it fair to say.

E

The stairs themselves, excluding the portal to the basement, is it is supportable once we understand.

E

The totality of the project right to give them some, maybe positive feedback, we'll go with the.

E

Delay, okay, all right, um just one question along those lines: you have a stone lentil.

D

And then, then, when they take the when they take the brick enclosure out and put in a.

D

Cast iron rail is that lentil stain what because it looks awkward, uh it looks strong to my eye. I.

A

Think that they're planning on putting a relatively thick granite top step on yeah.

A

And have that served as not only the platform but also the lintel to the opening that'll get.

A

Them a little bit more head height also, I think they're intending to use this in a common manner.

A

But speculation, although we aren't really getting in the way of digging.

A

Season at the moment, no right next month postpone that for a month, okay, so that was.

E

303, so I think we're done given. There were no stipulations on 60th hollow.

E

That I can recall you just need to vote on that one and they can continue this one.

E

Right so number four is a you need a motion to approved. Well, second, all those in favor.

B

Aye against and then put a motion to postpone 303 pleasant street to the next meeting. So.

E

Moved second, all those in favor aye against okay, we made it, we did them all. We actually.

P

Got them all, I think so. That's a record yeah 55 minutes. Okay, 16 50., the respawn as possible.

E

Okay start the meeting sure.

B

um Let me just get back to.

B

Okay, so now we have public hearings, new business petition of 43 holmes, court llc.

B

Owner for property located at 43 holmes court wherein permission is requested.

B

To allow the demolition of the existing home and the new construction of a single.

B

Family home of a similar design, as per plans on file in the planning department.

B

Said property is shown on a successor map 101 as lot 14 and lies within the waterfront business and.

B

Historic districts, and who is here so brendan mcnamara, is going to make the presentation.

E

um He's online okay, great he's in australia um brendan are you there? Can you hear me? uh I am.

Q

Here, hello, uh brenda, mcnamara speaking taking the remote thing to his greatest extent, yeah.

Q

I'm representing um steve and kate singler on this project um that project you know was presented for.

Q

A series of work sessions last year, uh including a sidewalk, essentially um because the property.

Q

Is kind of caught in the crux of many different regulatory bodies um went to you first to get.

Q

Some sort of sense of agreement about the concept of demolition and a news structure which got the.

Q

Sense that that was going to work and as a result of that, the project moved to the zoning board.

Q

um Of adjustment, where it did receive their approval, um there are other state and federal.

Q

Applications in the process or in process and these these applications have been handled by.

Q

um Altus engineering um would note that um you know part of the whole issue. Here is the whole.

Q

Flood hazard um requirements um and the property uh the basement did flood in december last year.

Q

When you know there was that combination of high tide and wind and things, um but just.

Q

Going back to the the generalized aspect of the the property, you know the tax card information.

Q

Says that the original house dates back to 1749 and there you know is clearly evidence.

Q

Of of that original structure there, particularly in the first law um floor structure, aspect of it.

Q

um But considerable uh work and changes have occurred since that original bill and the core.

Q

Gable structure appears to be intact, however. The the general roof geometry has been substantially.

Q

Changed to accommodate high pitch storm is, you know, probably in the late 1800s and then there's.

Q

A whole series of additions and enclosures and basically it's been a bit bastardized. You know.

Q

Over the last 50 60 years um and the the biggest issue is it's proximity to the piscatica river and.

Q

um With the new flood maps, um the property is now in the ae zone, um with an elevation of eight.

Q

Feet so it means that it's it's very prone to flood damage and has actually suffered from it.

Q

um The um but any work that's been done to it is going to require that your materials.

Q

Any non-flood materials have to be elevated above the um uh the design, flood elevation.

Q

Which, with the ae elevation of eight feet, would need to be at 11 feet so essentially.

Q

The house to conform to that requirement is going to need to be lifted up at a minimum of one foot.

Q

But then we fall into the whole issue of requirements for the building department and.

Q

Meeting dimensional requirements, which the house being so small, which is based around only a 14.

Q

Foot gable, it precludes a meeting of dimensional code, flight, stairs or even headroom at second.

Q

Floor level, you know we sort of discussed this in the work session, but so what is proposed is.

Q

To demolish the existing structure and rebuild a slightly larger and unprotected version of.

Q

The existing house, the new house, would remain quite small, two bedrooms that would be fully.

Q

Code compliant including meeting those of fema and coastal construction practices. So what's up.

Q

There on the screen at the moment is the approved site plan from the board of adjustment showing.

Q

The you know slight increase of footprint, and uh you know to to bring the house into some.

Q

Sort of dimensional aspect that is workable for code compliance, that's the proposed floor plans.

Q

Essentially, just a revised layout of what's there and then closing of some of the of the.

Q

Porches there and that's these are the detailed on the soffits which is you'll, see is the there. You.

Q

Go so there's the elevations, so it's essentially as close as possible to the generalized geometric.

Q

Appearance of the existing house, but with adjustments, obviously with windows, um you.

Q

Enclose the porch and windowed it. Yes, that still looks exactly as an enclosed porch and we made.

Q

Some adjustments through the work sessions for how that gen looked and reduced the number of doors.

Q

um And it's a combination of clapboards and uh shingles to begin keep it uh in appearance of.

Q

A small developed house and then the rest of the uh submission is just really details on.

Q

The products it's using the green mountain windows, although the doors are the anderson.

Q

A series doors which is their wood version. um Green mountain windows have stepped away from.

Q

Dealing with doors now so they're only doing windows. So essentially that's what we have and.

Q

um Tries to detail it as much as possible um and just here to answer any questions you might have.

B

So we've had a site, walk we've looked at this site. um Do we have any questions concerning these plans.

C

C

I mean what are the steps you've made for sort of the quote: unquote flood proofing that you've done.

Q

So the approach is actually it's. The swimming pool approach, okay,.

Q

So it's elevating the edge of the foundation and making it continuous there's. No, no breaks.

Q

In that top edge of the foundation, no basement windows, things of that nature.

Q

And what I've called it out is using the insulated concrete form, the new dura product.

Q

Which, along with that, has a process or system for a waterproofing, the exterior? It's? Actually it's.

Q

Quite a good product, so essentially it's we're creating reverse swimming pool with a powerful.

Q

Pump in a sump on the inside, so if it is breached it can be pumped out, but then everything inside.

Q

um Basically, that the, if you you can look in this section, you'll see whether design float elevation.

Q

Is so everything below that line is basically flood resistant and uh anything that isn't flood.

Q

Resistant has to be above it, so they can only use the basement for uh storage. That's it! Okay. I have.

Q

Included in there it's a little complicated. I do think that the building department are going to.

Q

Want a second means of egress for the basement, so there's there's actually a a horizontal hatch.

Q

Access actually not just similar to the sort of circumstance. You know where you have a sidewalk.

Q

Hatch, you know that gives access to basement, but it has to be done in a way that there's no step.

Q

Down from the top of the foundation so yeah, the the there can be no breach in the foundation wall.

J

Question am I understanding correctly that the base.

J

Was at current and the dfe is the uh foot higher.

Q

The basement slab as proposed is close to the current uh celeb basement bottom and then the.

Q

Dfe is is forcing a lift up of a little bit over a foot of the existing uh floor. Thank you.

B

Anybody on this side.

C

I mean, I guess my only uh concern is with the demolition of an existing historic house.

C

And and a lot of digging around it, I mean there's, there's going to be that's.

C

Found if you look for it for archeology, probably not a lot. This is not a.

C

You know important house, but our important site that we know of, um but I would like to request.

C

The documentation of the house thoroughly inside and out and and if you're doing any selective.

C

Demolition and you know finding any old, framing or anything like that. Please document it and.

C

um Give a digital copy to the athenaeum, as well as to the city.

Q

Yeah, that's the um the single has to be more than happy to do that. Okay,.

B

Yeah, I would agree with that. um You, even though, that um the yard that's in front.

B

Of it on the water, you know is a very smooth, nice, looking yard and stuff. They don't know.

B

What they're going to find underneath there for privy or more some out right buildings.

B

um For people, so if we have no other questions or comments, I'm going to open this up to the public.

B

Would anyone in the public like to speak about this building.

B

And prospect street homes court yeah at the end of holmes court. Anybody.

E

Just raise your virtual hand if you'd like to speak to this, if you're on zoom.

E

Not seeing any hands so hands okay. Well then, I'm going to close this public hearing.

B

um Look for some motions, any discussion, that for the motions, etc.

N

um I mean I'll just say um you know, losing any structures, obviously never our goal, but I think.

N

Given that this is in the flood plain, this is still keeping with the building that we're losing.

N

So we're keeping that history there, but obviously, if we don't do anything, we'd lose this building.

N

Because of the floodplain, so I will be supporting this no, and I just want to say that I appreciate.

C

The the changes in design to really reflect the building- that's currently there in the new design.

D

Agreed, I I think the use of the material, the masking is wonderful, use some materials, excellent.

D

You know the only one thing I see and I even hesitate bringing it up is the.

D

Is the condenser unit, that's not screened, but other than that? I think it's a wonderful project.

B

That's joanna well, I'm late to the game and you can just give me a really short.

J

Answer but what kind of research was done around just elevating the existing structure.

B

um You're asking that, can you yeah? Could you hear that brendan, yes, yeah yeah, so the issue we.

Q

Usually initiate the um the kind of regulatory bond of um this situation is so under the the.

Q

Building ordinance, if you spend more than 50 percent of the market value of the building.

Q

Itself then, you're required under that to meet code compliance across the building.

Q

So the the elevation of the existing structure, the cost of that, would exceed that 50 requirement. So.

Q

Therefore, the building would be forced to meet all other building code, compliance which it just.

Q

Can't do it's just not possible for the building in its shape to do so, um and it also wouldn't.

Q

Even the cost of elevation, it just couldn't be justified. For you know the building that was left.

Q

um You know, there's um it's it's a charming little structure, but it's it's. It has. I don't remember.

Q

From the sidewalk you you, when you step in through essentially the what's the front door, which is on.

Q

The right hand, side sort of in the middle of the porch, then the uh in the state. It's a center stair.

Q

Going up and you've got, you know uh two rooms left and right and they're kind of you know original.

Q

um But then they've had like a port edition down on the water side and then this the stair.

Q

Is you know, barely a stair, you know it's, it's. It's really a ship's ladder going up. It's really steep.

Q

And then the head height at the second floor level, just isn't there it's um it's just too.

Q

Small to sustain anything of that nature, so it's there's just no practical purpose in spending.

Q

That sort of money and then there's this whole enforcement issue of the cost of elevation and.

Q

What it does to the requirements on the building? Thank you. It's very unfortunate, though, mr chairman.

A

um I'm still, obviously not decided, uh not not obvious. I've still not decided.

A

um uh Part of this is is the admission that there's a charming little historic.

A

Building there charming in its size and scale, is proximity to the water.

A

Of it's barely past the usefulness test over the years and previous owners have all tried to make.

A

It larger and make it more compatible with their version of living at that time, uh none of which.

A

Have addressed the problem that this current owner is addressing with the flooding issues and the.

A

Improvements that are required to accomplish that um it just seems it seems like we've, got a very.

A

Sweet little cottage that's taking its it's going to take its place. It's larger in every dimension.

A

Not so much so that one could say it's a different building but larger in every dimension.

A

uh The tidiness of it, the completeness of this little drawing uh this proposal is very compelling.

A

And- and I think that it's possibly the residents of the street, the neighbors are better off with.

A

This building being there than they are the one that's there now in terms of the livability of it.

A

And the kind of the commitment to the property values that this would represent uh so there's.

A

I'm going back and forth I've I've not been able to pin myself down on this, uh but in the midst of.

A

Doing that I'm struck by how little appreciation I have for the historic texture of the stainless.

A

Steel wire railing on the second floor, porch, and I think that, regardless of how this commission moves.

A

On I think that that railing system is a mistake to allow it to be introduced into this community.

A

uh And I'll I'll, I'm gonna still grapple with my problem, but I thought I'd mention that all right.

B

Thank you dave. um Anybody else have some comments before we vote.

B

I mean I too am saddened by the removal of this building. I think that.

B

Something that's really not in our purview, but the fact that there's going to be a big machine.

B

That's going to go and take this thing down on the possibly the smallest street in portsmouth.

B

I don't know how it's going to work. I I don't know.

B

um But there again there isn't um anybody here saying: oh god, they can't do this. It's gonna the.

B

Noise is going to be terrible and such and for a week it it will be. There's no doubt about that.

B

um I would hate to talk about the stainless steel rails day, because one of the things that.

B

I did on my house is: put those stainless steel wire rails on the it's a source of contention.

A

Between us yeah on my back deck, you know, and I actually had to remove the two by two balusters.

B

You'll be happy to know, I did reuse them for various things.

B

um So, that's it um that's my comments. Okay, would somebody like to make a motion.

C

um I'll move that we approve this application as presented, I don't know that there are any.

C

Stipulations, no, I would just suggest not not a stipulation, but an acknowledgment of.

E

What everybody has already said given given, what's before you and its significance to.

E

uh Other folks that might come along with similar ideas, I I think it's you know, I'm.

E

Stating the obvious, but it's not obvious to people that don't either watch these meetings or sit on.

E

This commission, or have some at least rudimentary training in in what you're doing. I I think, when.

E

You're presented with an application like this, the significance of the alterations to the original.

E

Structure are certainly needing to be looked at, to evaluate, what's being requested, the condition of.

E

The structure would be a another criteria to ask oneself: what's there today, what's its condition.

E

Both structurally and the sort of materiality of what's there, and I think the configuration of the.

E

Structure how it's altered over time, leading to its livability question, I mean there, the jackson.

E

House is one thing where you you're six foot three and hit your head everywhere. It's another to be in.

E

A utilitarian structure that's been substantially altered where you're banging your head going up.

E

And down the stairs, if you're six feet tall and how it relates to current code requirements and.

E

Floodplain issues, environmental factors- I think you've all looked at that, but given this hasn't.

E

Been here for a while, and if somebody's tuning in and seeing this show up after four or five months.

E

Of going off to the other boards, one could get the mistaken impression. This isn't a big deal and you.

E

You gave it short shrift in removing instruction replacing it. I know none of you did so I'm just.

E

Reiterating, I think, what's been said here in one man or another, and it's really important for the.

E

Community to to hear that uh that you've done your due diligence and it was still a difficult.

E

Decision should you approve this, but it's one. That's based on you know a sound methodology.

E

Of determining whether that building should be replaced yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Nick um yeah, I.

C

Mean because we let it be said that we never take the demolition of a historic structure lately at.

C

All um so the one actually, the one um stipulation is the one I brought up yes, which is that.

C

um The building both interior and exterior, be documented fully with high resolution. Digital.

C

Photographs and um and excavation and yeah I don't know what to tell them, but I'm not.

C

Going to force them to hire an archaeologist for this one, but um be careful excavations.

C

um And uh that documentation would be submitted to the city and the athenaeum.

B

Yeah, okay, so we have a motion. Do we have a second well? Are we not.

J

Going to do a public hearing point we did, we did, we did nobody wanted.

N

A second, oh okay! I'm going to give this a second to our council, um but this um has conservation and.

C

Enhancement of property values, unfortunately, to keep the property value they've got to do a lot.

C

Of work here um and has compatibility of design with surrounding properties.

N

um No I'll just reiterate what nick said I mean and we don't take any demolition of any historic.

N

Structure in this town lately we have been looking at this project for a long time. We've.

N

Done the sitewalk we've seen all the options that the homeowner could take or the architect could.

N

Take- and I think this is the best put forward for the future of this house for the neighborhood for.

N

Their butters for the property owner for all parties interested so, but I just want to remind.

N

Everyone that we do not take this lately and also remind everyone that there are quite a few other.

B

Houses that are in that flood zone that are in danger- okay, all those in favor, say aye aye against.

B

uh The chair votes, I you have your approval thanks brendan. Thank you very much.

B

E

We're over here 96 just I know I'm just having a long kinds of problem with this thing, because.

C

I didn't get it work properly, so 96 chestnut, what's 96-1 I don't know, is that something else.

D

Just I mean good evening, mr chair members of the board, mr crack now uh one second, I do have to uh read this.

B

uh And then we'll, let you get into this petition of rudy stallards, holding llc, nco, boston, bozen,.

B

And associates pllc owners for property located at 96 chestnut street wearing permission is requested.

B

To allow exterior renovations to an existing structure, add a new doorway and the installation.

B

Of mechanical equipment in hvac condenser, as per plans on file in the planning departments and.

B

Property is shown on assessor map, 116, says lot, 24 lies within character, district 4-l1 and historic.

B

Districts: okay, good evening, mr chair members of the board, mr krakow, I'm john bose, and I own the.

R

Property at 96 chestnut street this uh this home was the owned. My former law off my law office, many.

R

Years ago I moved up to middle street about five six years ago. The plan now is to convert.

R

This property back to a single family, residence and currently there was only one means of egress.

R

And that's the front door, the back of the house. There's a there's, a nice patio, but the only way to.

R

Get there is out the front door and then down the driveway so as a single family residence. I think.

R

We'll be better suited to have a second means of access that would be for proposing to put a out.

R

The back put a slider out the back some short deck and then onto the patio in the back um one other.

R

Point I do want to make is that the proposed improvements are not visible from the front of.

R

The property, it's really sort of a visible back there so happy to answer any questions. You have.

R

But that's the gist of what we're trying to accomplish so who's got some questions here.

N

I do have one question: um well, though, it doesn't look like, but will there need to be any sort of.

N

Digging underground there, no yeah, because I just noticed right next to that africa, burial, ground.

N

So if there was, we would want to be very sensitive apps. Very mindful of that, I don't know. Thank you.

C

I mean, I think it was just. I think this is a good solution to your problem here, because.

C

There's a big blank wall there and glad you're, not touching the beautiful curveball window. Maybe.

R

I know we would be very mindful not touching it that window's beautiful yeah, so I mean I, I think.

C

This is a fine, um a fine proposal for adding and adding an egress in the back. Thank you.

B

D

I would just ask you you're looking to change all the windows out, didn't know.

R

They were changed about uh 10 or 15 years ago, because you're showing a lot of cut sheets.

D

Yeah, the windows are not being being modified um and you're. You want to use the slider.

R

Slider is a marvin window element, I believe it's a product you folks have approved before.

D

And that slider is uh a clad.

R

Yeah, what I'm told this is a was an approved product. It was a anderson and a marvin that were.

R

Both hdc compliant, how is it clad? It's that fibrex material it is it yeah. I was just reading it. Okay,.

G

Which is a what's a paintable yeah? It's, it is paintable. It's a fiberglass material.

D

Okay, I've done my questions: okay, all righty. So uh would anybody in.

B

The public uh like to talk about this any opinions.

B

E

Raise your hand if you'd like to speak to this, if you're online.

E

No hands no hands; okay. So I'm going to close this and look for a motion, an explanation.

B

You do one for a change.

C

Then we approve this application as presented I'll second, that um this has conservation, enhancement.

C

Of property values um and has again compatibility of design with surrounding properties.

B

All those in favor say aye, aye, aye and against.

B

All right, you have your renovation here very much. You're welcome.

B

So we have number three: the petition of the daniel pinkham house, llc owner for property.

B

Located at 400 the hill unit dash 8-4, wherein permission is requested to allow renovations to.

B

An existing structure, which is replacement window sashes for all the windows as per plans on file.

B

In the planning department said, property is shown on assessor map 118 as lot 26-10.

B

Lies within the character, district, 4-l1 and the historic district so who here is to present this.

B

Windows: anybody out there.

C

um They can, mr chairman, I move that we uh move this to the end of the agenda and take it up.

A

Again then, second, all those in favor opposed all righty um petition number four petition.

B

uh 129 state street llc owner for property located at 129 state street. Oh wait! I think.

E

The person's trying to get on remotely for the last one so hang on. Sorry, let me see all.

C

Right we forgot to check online yep, uh so we got two hands up. Let's see, if steve, can you hear me.

E

Yes, can you hear me, yes, are you, the representative, presenting the application for the hill.

S

So I am also here I am actually the sales rep for pella. I am here with nancy. She is not with.

S

Me I think she was probably the other one raising her hand yeah. So um should we let nancy go first.

S

Yeah, that's perfectly filed me. I was just trying to not get uh skip, so that's why I was trying to.

S

Raise my hand also all right, sorry to stiff you, um mr chairman, do we need to move this back to.

A

The table did you vote, I think yeah. So I need a motion to bring this back. All those in favor.

B

Aye nancy, can you hear me? Yes, can you hear me yes, go ahead great. Thank you very much. We are ready to.

T

Replace the windows on our home here um we have 31 windows. um Actually it's the window, sashes.

T

um And it's been quite a few years now that we have owned the building and been waiting to.

T

Make the attempt to do this and we're hoping that you guys will approve the pella windows that we've.

T

Picked and steve can talk to you about uh windows and their quality, and we are just dealing with.

T

A lot of energy loss winter or summer um and they're just ready to be um tended to.

B

Actually, um nancy, um it's just come to to my attention that um some of these windows might.

B

Be original is, is this just something that could be spoken to by the representative who.

B

Undoubtedly went around and measured every window. [music] Yes, he can speak to that.

S

Hello, can you hear me yep, okay, perfect yeah, so I went around and obviously measured all.

S

The windows to be able to produce a quote for them in my professional opinion, these are not.

S

Original at all, my guess is probably 70s to 80s. If you were to go into the house, they don't have.

S

The weighted pockets anymore- they don't have all of those things that would deem them to.

S

Be that true, historically accurate, you know um that they were never replaced before so that is.

S

Obviously, they still have the storm windows on them, but they are definitely not the original.

S

Windows to that building, I'm not exactly sure when that building was built, but in my professional.

S

Opinion, those are not any of the original windows. Do you think any of them are handmade.

S

No, to be quite honest with you, I do not. I do not.

C

um We don't have very many photos of the existing windows, and some of them that we do are like cut.

C

Off on the page, so I don't see them thing, they didn't quite um transfer very well.

C

um I can see that they have the the springs and the jams rather than where the pockets should be.

B

um They're using the aluminum uh jam liners with the springs that yeah.

C

I think about bear springs, but I, but it does the hardware and the mutton profile and everything.

C

Does look older than 70s or 80s from what I can tell um so it looks like they're, probably.

C

You know maybe turn of the century windows that say 1970.. You do yeah brockway smith of.

A

The photographs that we have and I walked the exterior of the building looked at the first.

A

Floor windows only hopefully nobody called the police, um the the with the photos we have and.

A

What I saw, I I see that their brasco replacement windows probably put in 1970, maybe 1971., okay,.

A

They have the bear spring. uh These window frames more than likely never had pockets for sash.

A

Weights these were this building, certainly dates before that invention, so to speak.

A

um And oh yeah and other than that they've they have. This looks slightly in the photos that we.

A

Have again I didn't get inside, but it in the photos we have they look. They have the look.

A

Of sort of like an overload million, but actually, if you really look at it, you'll see that it's an.

A

Og- and that is a classic- uh you know late late, 60s, early 70s, roscoe, easy and the door and the.

B

Actual window locks are your standard 1970 window, lock, yeah. So in terms of historic material, I don't.

A

Think we're losing anything. Okay, I mean it seems, like you know, the first floor windows, the third.

C

Floor there's one third floor window photographed that looks to be consistent with the other ones.

C

um Okay, I guess my only question then, is I'd like to hear about the proposed.

C

Replacement because my my wonder is: do we want a clad window on a.

C

On a house like this on the hill, or do we want to ask for wood windows inside and out.

B

So anybody else want to uh jump in on this discussion. Yeah, that's a good question and.

D

The storm window, the storm windows, are going they're going and not returning.

D

Okay, that is correct, isn't it that is correct, sir. Yes, if, if we.

S

Are replacing those windows? We will not be putting these storm windows back on.

B

So there'll be a certain amount of damage done when you take off the storm windows.

B

Excess caulking screw holes. All that stuff will be taken care of for the the homeowner correct.

S

They we do require that the homeowner, if obviously in this circumstance, definitely needs to be done.

S

um Is to you know, take a you know, new kit, paying a paint, the exterior trim or do whatever needs.

S

To be done to get that exterior trim back to looking, you know as good as humanly possible.

E

How are these clad, then? These are.

B

So it's yeah, I don't mean to interrupt yeah. How are these clad? So it's an aluminum, clad exterior.

S

It's wrapped around the it's a true wood window. It's wrapped around the wood, I'm not sure. If I.

S

Can pull up an actual uh like open my camera, to show you a sample? I did. I have one with me.

S

um I think, unfortunately, I wasn't able to get down there tonight like I wanted to yeah.

B

I mean we have all of us here on this board, have seen this window a number of times.

B

And it has been approved before yeah we've done multiple jobs in portsmouth. I do a lot.

S

Of historical work in portland, um I've done a lot of work with nancy.

S

Themselves too, um but it's I've never had any any issues with the historical approval.

E

D

So you're going to match the window pattern six over six yep. So if you oh, if you scroll up.

S

There's our pictures of the windows, I matched every uh grille pattern to what is currently.

S

There now I even measured the the mullions to make sure it's same with all of those things.

S

uh You know just try to keep it as historically accurate as possible, so you have the third floor.

C

Windows is still being six over six. What, whereas what's there now, is six over three? No, no! No.

S

If you don't mind scrolling down just because I can't get the screen of this, oh so yeah well,.

C

Right here, nick you that's silly, I pass it. Yeah look at go back to the specs, where it shows the.

D

There right there that one so so I can easily make that be. uh Take out that.

S

um Cross girl, that makes it the the six well.

C

What's up there now, which is a bigger top sash and a smaller cash style, so it can easily be.

S

Done this window, we can honestly customize in in any way possible to meet whatever requirements.

S

You guys have yeah, I mean I guess just the point is that it really does need to match exactly what.

C

Is there, which is the normal size, six top sash and then a shorter three light, lower sash, okay.

S

Okay and I I can easily go back- take measurements to make sure those things are lining up exactly.

S

Because I can move that check rail to have it be exactly where those are currently. Okay. Thank.

B

You it is a stipulation and you'll want to follow it. Did these replacement sashes come in frames.

A

Yeah, yes correct, sir! Yes, when you put the frame into the existing window, opening.

A

A

The the do you see what what are we going to see from the outside? Are we going to see the frame.

B

A little bit of it yeah, you will not see the frame of the of the.

S

New window: no, how thick is your frame recorders.

U

I don't have an exact measurement on me. I apologize for that. My gut reaction is.

A

That the frame is going to be at least three quarter inch to have any stability.

A

My my understanding of at least what appears to be the windows that exist.

A

On the building, now that the exterior trim provides for possibly a half inch.

A

Of of overlap, so the frame is going to show is, what's the frame made out of.

S

The frame is going to be aluminum on the exterior of what you would see walking by or going there.

A

Okay- and this is a aluminum sill, also correct, sir. Yes,.

B

Thank you. um I have a question on that aluminum sill. um What angle is that still at do you have.

B

Different angles available, as does anderson or not correct. Yes, we will make sure that that is.

S

The exact same angle, that is there now ours, is adjustable to make sure it's going to you.

S

Know sit there flat and make sure it meets. You know uh kind of the same thing that everything.

S

Is there now yeah it wants to come down as close to the wooden window sill as possible.

S

Correct, yes and that's why we have the adjustable one to make sure that can't happen.

B

Okay, so um I guess, uh would anybody in the public like to speak about this.

B

We don't care about windows, we only care about stones.

E

Going online, no one online right, we have someone, oh, it is miss trace.

B

V

Good evening, paige trace 27 hancock street I'll. Take a stab at this, because I've been sitting here.

V

All evening- and I feel like nobody's speaking and that can either be a help or a hindrance.

B

um Paige, excuse me, could you please move your microphone yeah, honest to goodness.

B

Sorry, no, that's! That's all right! It's been a long week, yeah um for all of us, yeah.

V

I have to say for a home: that's on the hill as much as I respect people.

V

um Needing to replace windows for various misundery reasons, there are plenty of people in.

V

This city that have either used green mountain or other wooden windows and an aluminum sash. That's.

V

Going to actually show a frame, that's going to show on the hill in the historic district.

V

um There has to be a better way, and so I'm here to speak for proper.

V

Sash proper frames, proper wooden windows and not windows made out of aluminum that can bow.

V

And twist and sure they can be adjusted, but I'm really sorry, I feel, for the homeowner, but.

V

The choice was made to live on the hill and have the windows properly done. I hope that helps.

V

Thank you. Thank you. Am I allowed to speak on that? I'm sorry. If I'm interrupting.

S

Go ahead so because our we are actually the only manufacturer that has a true wood window.

S

So it's not a full aluminum window. It's just a wrapping on the exterior.

S

So it's still going to have the full wood interior. Everything like that. It's not a aluminum window.

S

Itself, it is a wood window with an aluminum wrap is really what it what it is soon yeah. um Okay, so.

B

I guess I'm going to close this public hearing unless there's anybody else online. That's great.

E

No hands no hands all right. um So I'm looking for a motion.

D

I will make a motion to approve, as presented. I don't believe we had anything relations that.

D

The sashes and profile be matched all right on all of them. Yeah on all those.

E

That they match the mountain and sashboard yes yeah. I think I assume that was agreed to.

D

Not even required are we definitely the plans, don't reflect that we should stipulate that.

D

Stipulation made okay, um we have a second.

N

F

uh I I believe it preserves the integrity of the district and is consistent with the special and.

D

Defining character of the surrounding properties, I think it's a sensible and reasonable replacement.

C

I think I can um so support this one, because I think there are better options out there.

C

For more uh for a wood window on the exterior and interior that would match.

C

The profile in the opening of this building and the windows in this building better.

C

All right, so all those in favor say aye aye, all those opposed the post posts. You better do it.

E

What's the count there, who's in favor, there's four raise your hand, four opposed. Okay, oh yeah,.

W

I'm opposed sorry opposed to oppose three four posts, so anyone favorite post, no, I'm not opposed.

B

No, I didn't know so three and five or four above somebody else, yeah yeah. So it fails so I'm afraid.

B

um That this uh has failed. [music] You might want to come back with a different window up there.

E

Yes, sir, hang on uh steve we've closed the hearing. uh Did you follow that.

S

Yes, I I sorry, I'm not sure I've never done this before so I just had a quick.

S

Question if we were to move that, because we can't offer that in a full wood exterior.

S

um Didn't want to go with that at first, just because again, price points a lot higher. The.

S

Windows can deteriorate a lot faster things along those lines, but we do offer this specific.

S

Window with a true wood exterior reconsider, you need two thirds. Why wouldn't you yeah.

E

All those in favor aye aye opposed okay, so we're reconsidering. uh What is the.

B

Specification, what is the name of this window? uh Is the pella architect series.

B

So that is this yeah architect, which has a wood exterior painted wood, exterior.

S

So it won't come painted from the factory that is the only better uh it'll be field papers. I know.

S

It yeah, I know yeah, but it'll. It will come primes from the factory that is, that is all.

B

So we all understand and maintain the second. Does it come in a frame.

A

Yeah same window same thing, the same frame: what's the frame made out of.

S

Every and now moving now everything would be back to a wood exterior on the outside yeah.

E

Okay, so in the sash and the mutton profile will.

E

Match every opening, absolutely yeah correct, sir. All right.

C

um And I'll just say: I'm insisting on this for this location, because the hill is.

C

um Very important and it's we, I think we have an obligation to keep a very high amount of integrity.

C

To the buildings um in this that collection of buildings.

B

Okay, so uh I guess we could just have a motion and a second on this and two stipulations with.

B

The stipulation I'd be happy to uh re-motion and for approval, with the stipulations that uh wood.

F

Exterior yep, with the stipulations of pattern and configuration uh matt b matching what is existing.

N

Second, hey um so with uh have you got any other discussion you want to just add to that, like you.

B

Already did oh of findings effect yeah, it's just a whole new motion. uh Yes, it is so it's.

D

Even more integrity, I will simply say that: is it consistent with the uh the integrity.

D

Of the district is consistent with the special and defining character of the area alrighty. So we've.

B

Got wood replacement windows, um all those in favor, say aye aye an opposed opposed a post one opposed.

B

Okay, okay, all right! Thank you, steve and nancy. Thank you for your time.

E

You'll know what to do next time.

E

Okay, excuse me.

B

E

Me a didn't 129th yeah, I'm getting there.

B

A petition of 129 state street llc owner for property located at 129 state street, wherein.

B

Permission is requested to allow exterior renovations to an existing structure. Add.

B

Masonry parapet as per plans on file in the planning department, said, property is shown on.

B

A system map 107 as lot 47 lies within character, district 4 and the historic districts and who's.

B

Here to present this that we haven't seen in a bit good evening, mr chair members of the board, shane.

X

Forsley with hampshire development corporation on behalf of the owners of 129 state street.

X

um What you have in front of you tonight is a proposed mason repair pit to deal with the.

X

Co-Mingling of the roofs between 129 state street and the abutting 121 and 123 state street property.

X

um As you know, in our site, site walks and analysis of the two roofs there's a little bit of.

X

Difference in pitch and irregularity of the two roofs, and so what we've.

X

Proposed to do is to build a one foot wide parapet that matches the same.

X

Geometry of the parapet at the north end of the block on top of the existing roof.

X

Pros the brick to match what's existing in order to achieve that, we'll have to do some cleaning of.

X

The masonry on the building as it is today, I think we included that in our original proposal to you.

X

So we'd use a brick to match and we'd be happy to get some samples and make sure that everybody.

X

Would be comfortable with it and to cap the parapet, we're proposing to use lead coated, copper.

X

I think, on sheet a 2.1, the elevations you've got a pretty good representation of.

X

This shape and form of it you'll see, there's a chimney at least one of them, one on the front and.

X

One on the back that this parapet would die into that's shared between the two, the tube buildings.

X

In on the second sheet, a 2.2 you'll see a few references that we drew inspiration.

X

From the first on the top left, that's located at the other end of the state street block and.

X

Then, across chief street there's also a number of parapits that we referenced for height and shape.

X

And I should mention that, should you approve this.

X

There would need to be a mechanism or an agreement in place between the neighbors, um meaning the.

X

129 state street property in the abutting condo association before any of this work would commence.

B

Alrighty any other questions and comments. Yes, shane. um What are the I see the red lines.

N

There, on a 2.2 just near the footprint of approval, is that changing, or is that.

X

Yes, so what was what was proposed through some internal space planning is a slight expansion of.

X

The footprint, as previously as previously proposed understanding that, on that rear yard area on chief.

X

Street there's no setback requirement. We wouldn't have any encroachment on the public right away on.

X

Chief street, it's just a small uh push out to better accommodate the interior space.

E

We would need that approved here, so it could probably be added given you've.

E

Shown it here, but okay, any any alterations to the previously plans would need approval.

E

To that end, if you'd be amenable to that, um we could put that on on.

X

The proposal for tonight to expand the footprint slightly. Can you tell us just.

C

How much sure I guess in here, but it's over six inches yeah, probably close to it.

B

So you extended the back of these two buildings.

B

Already already, what do you mean already, oh in the prior approval? Yes,.

B

And now you're coming back and say: well we need another foot correct. I believe if we can fit.

B

Somebody's piano in or something like this one, I'm hoping it's a pool table. What is this? You know it.

B

And, and does this require some kind of um approval from the boa or anything like that? No, it does not.

E

I mean this would be an administrative approval if it was all he was doing.

E

um So I think, given this is a public hearing and it looks pretty de minimis to my eye and if it.

E

Meets the zoning requirements, you should be able to fold that in here, unless there's something more.

E

Complicated than I'm seeing and then he can come back for admin approval, yeah yeah. So let's go back.

B

To the was it advertising? No it's advertised for the parapet. Yeah, there's no way we're talking for.

W

The expansion right- I just want to clarify for the expansion under an administrative.

E

Approval either no! No! So it's not like there's no notice to a butters for that yeah. I we wouldn't.

E

Be sending somebody in for a public hearing to add eight inches to the back of of that right.

C

So I just wanted to give him a chance to tell us exactly what the dimension is, that he's adding.

X

So I I don't have the exact dimension in front of me here today.

X

um What I could tell you, based on uh my recollection of the footprint, is it's a one foot.

X

Six inch, expansion on both the garage structure and the living structure. As you see in footprint.

E

Your garage looks bigger than the living so.

K

Okay with some would something to speak about this. uh Anybody else.

F

This little bit of discussion uh we're not talking about the moving the the masking back.

D

Into the alleyway and that's off the table, correct; no, that's what we are. Oh, we are that's what we're.

B

Talking about moving the massing okay! Oh because again, I'm probably repeating, what's being said,.

D

It wasn't advertised we had butters who were who objected to what is already being what was.

D

Already proposed and approved, and now it's we're grabbing more yep. um You know I. I would think that.

D

I could talk about the parapet, but I can't support that until that's properly presented. As far as I'm.

D

Concerned um now, you're you're going to be cutting into the cornice correct to extend the parapeta.

D

Correct, okay um and we don't do we have a detail of that. We have a photograph.

X

The photographs provided are of um the opposite end of the block and uh across the street at.

X

Chief street and and to your point, martin, I think that tonight we came here today to to speak on the.

X

Parapet, what's reflected on those drawings, I think, is just a um as far as the footprint expansion was.

X

Just a matter of uh line drawings carrying forward on this, so I was prepared tonight to.

X

Speak to the parapet only, and so I don't want to kind of muddy the waters with talking about.

X

The the footprint, if we can focus on on the parapit alone and handle uh the footprint as.

X

A separate matter good uh so in the photograph you're showing parapet at the opposite end of.

D

Building it kind of kicks out a little bit this way, the uh the gutters and cornice detail sort of.

D

Butt into it is that what you're, you're proposing just to cut, maybe a cap on each end and then an.

D

Extension up: where are you going to do what that photograph shows a little kind of kick out yeah.

X

So our intention would be to extend the plane of masonry. That's the outside face of of the building.

X

Now straight up, so we would we'd interrupt. uh You know the eve or the leading edge of that that roof.

X

On the state street side to continue that brick work up and then carry it up up and over the ridge.

X

Okay, yeah, I I don't have a problem with that. I think I think that's appropriate.

D

uh And mainly you're doing this to have a strong definition between one roofing.

D

System and another correct okay, I can support that. I follow up on that. I just want to make.

C

Sure that, um as as it's shown, the parapet of the opposite end of the building, where the.

C

Sort of dental course at the bottom is is preserved because of that you're not gonna.

C

Because it's bumped out everything is preserved, underneath all that detailing, so that.

C

um No, it's not like you're cutting back to the surface, the facade, correct, yep, great.

B

David, do you understand this? uh The parapet coming down to the dental.

B

I I think that what they're, I don't believe it historically, that they step parapet brick out.

A

Beyond the plane of the building, and so the last decorative piece of brick work that was done, the.

A

Parapet starts flush with that and the tradition, as I know it in portsmouth, is that the face that.

A

Small face of parapet about a foot and a half tall is is unadorned. There's no effort to make.

A

It look decorative in any manner it's just the end of a brick wall so to speak, yeah and then.

A

The way that he's got it drawn, the brick are all going to be laid horizontally cut in a place that.

A

We can't see and slightly capped uh with metal, it's a pretty utilitarian surface in construction.

B

It does this actually go down and set on a brick wall underneath the roof.

B

So does this have a fire function? Traditionally, a parapet would have would have a fire function.

X

As you know, um so, until we really get into the means and methods of it, it would be a matter of.

X

Of whether it's a framed extension on top of the existing structure or if we were able to.

X

Neatly and cleanly understanding that we've got two roofs to deal with ours and and the.

X

Neighbors, whether it be an extension of that masonry, that's already there.

B

Okay, probably not our purview. I was just really wondering um unless we have any other questions.

B

With somebody in the public liked speak out about this parapet,.

Y

Hello, commissioners and prepare my name is marie bodie and I'm a resident at 121.

Y

State street you've heard our neighbors and I and my husband speak in the past about this.

Y

Project, I'm actually quite shocked that my husband and shane spoke yesterday that this.

Y

Plan presented this evening does encroach further into chief street that was trying.

Y

To be slipped in this evening, which I find appalling number two, as your hdc minutes will.

Y

Show when the original approval was granted for this project, it was with the purview that.

Y

The association 121 123 would have an agreement with the handling of the roofs because they do.

Y

Align with one another, so there is no understanding. There is no agreement.

Y

There has been no conversation with the owner on this property despite our intentions and requests.

Y

Throughout this process, so I would encourage you not to vote this evening on this, especially the.

Y

Encroachment part and um worn, and just cautioned that there is no agreement with the putting of.

Y

The two roofs together, the parapet um is not is my understanding, fire retardant or in any.

Y

Way, shape or forming a fire barrier between our two properties, which was another item that was.

Y

Raised during this original review with regards to their relocating the garage and the potential.

Y

Fire risks between the two properties um that again has not been addressed, so I just speak in.

Y

A pot on opposition of this project and your um hopefully we'll see my side. Thank you very much.

B

V

I'll pull this down page trace, 27 hancock street.

V

um I think the other member of the public that just spoke says all there needs to be said at.

V

This particular moment in time there is no agreement between the two property owners.

V

And that should be an agreed upon situation before anyone votes on it by public hearing.

V

um So I would suggest holding your fire until.

V

The city makes sure that there is a complete understanding between all parties.

V

um And that one neighbor doesn't encroach upon the other, and if this is being done with an historic.

V

Structure and it's just for the purpose of one homeowner and not the other, then I find this.

V

Not particularly appropriate, and I would urge you to vote against it. Thank you.

F

Hey nick, do we have anybody in outer space.

E

We do not still find it amazing that we heard someone from australia talk to us.

B

Nope, okay, um so I'm going to close this public hearing and um I'm looking for emotion and I.

B

I think we should address what has been raised with the fact that there is right, no agreement.

C

Before you close a public hearing, yeah, oh no shane too yeah, I'm very sorry, go ahead. I'll.

B

Reopen the public here. Thank you just to reiterate what I said earlier. Should you make any judgment.

X

Tonight, understanding the concerns of of the neighbors and the people of the public. We fully.

X

um Accept and understand the nature of having a formal agreement in place before any any sort of.

X

Thing would would convince, and I would expect that everybody here at city hall, whether it be building.

X

Department planning, department etc expect that sort of thing from us. So I just want to reiterate.

X

That to you- and I understand the concerns of the neighbors in the general public so as not to blow.

X

Ahead and you know get approvals and whatnot so can can you weave asphalt? Shingles I mean I. It.

B

Looks like this whole roof is all asphalt shingles, including the other condo association. So you could.

B

Do your roof and asphalt shingles put tar all over them and there it is, if that's what they want. Well,.

X

Correct and we we had proposed and were approved, to replace the roof with uh synthetic slates.

X

And so I think that's where um the discussion of handling the co-mingling came about just because.

X

They have slightly different roof pitches ones. You know three or four inches taller than the other.

X

At the peak- and it was a way to reconcile- what's now a bit of a mistake, probably when the different.

X

Vintages of construction went through there, so this was our our first pass to trying to remedy.

X

The situation, certainly we could, um you know, find a way to weave shingles or essentially leave it.

X

The way it is so wait, two suggestions, uh I'd like to think you don't abandon the the faux slate.

E

Shingle that easily and go back to an inferior product, because you can't get an agreement. I think.

E

What you're hearing tonight is come back with at least a tentative agreement where the the parties.

E

Can speak or write in favor of the concept of putting a parapet on this building? It doesn't.

E

Matter, whether it's fire resistant or not, that's not the purview of this board get a tentative.

E

Agreement with the parties, a formal agreement is unnecessary. They effort to do so until you.

E

Get approval from this commission to actually separate the roofs, so that would be a condition.

E

Of approval, should you get there and either add or remove the expanded massing on the back and.

E

Have tentative agreement on that before you get here would go a long way to being able to vote on.

E

This with some stipulations, okay, so I think that we're looking at um continuing yeah continuance.

B

To an indefinite time, no one, one month well you'd like to continue to the next meeting.

E

Correct or yes, we'll come back next month, I'll make that motion a second okay, all those in favor.

A

Mr chairman, is there a an opportunity to have a discussion on the powerpoint wall so that.

A

They all that the applicant understands whether or not the commission would.

A

Even support it even support that, considering that the amount of no small amount of effort.

A

That he's going to have to put into bringing an agreement before us yeah. Certainly if there's a.

A

I'd hate to have them do that on spectrum and find out that he didn't pass. I guess it's my point. Yeah.

B

Yeah um kind of hard to figure out how we're going to do that david. Was there anybody adamantly.

E

Opposed to the concept of a parapet- that's sitting here and if you're not, then I think they should be.

E

Able to proceed if a majority of commissioners are not adamantly opposed to the concept of the.

E

Parapet that speaks volumes to making the effort to work with the abutters and avoid.

E

Putting asphalt shingles on here for the next hundred years, we have a continued conversation.

Y

So, in regards to the parapet, we saw a 20-minute presentation about windows on the hill, with.

Y

Specific detail, these are developers and, as you know, I work for a developer and.

Y

Tracy kozak will be speaking about projects that we're presenting tonight on the agenda as well.

Y

um It's incredulous to me that they are proposing a parapet without providing detailed drawings. You.

Y

Typically, look for 3d this and 3d that these are this. Is our parapet wall that they're, showing.

Y

As an example, if they're going to do something that is similar and in kind with what is already.

Y

There I would expect that you all would have more detail again in the conversation with mr forsley.

Y

Yesterday, my husband, he was suggesting that they would use a veneer brick tonight. He presented.

Y

That they would be using similar brick. So I think there's a lot more detail that you need to have.

Y

As a commission before you even proceed this evening, thank you very much. Thank you and just.

N

To be clear, we didn't vote on approval of that. We just wanted to continue it yep. Let's continue bye.

B

Okay, so now we have so you want to take a break here. No, I I think what where there was at least to.

E

My years to help the applicant general consensus that a parapet that's yet to be fully detailed.

E

It is not something anybody here other than perhaps a minority of members uh thinks is a.

E

Bad idea, I mean it and speak up. If that's not in fact the case, the details do matter, but a pair.

E

Of pets, a parapet and if a parapet is a bad idea, even if it's gold-plated you're going to hear that.

E

You need the details yeah, I kind of like the dutch parrot pits that go up like that.

K

All right, so that's that europe you're good willing to get going.

E

Yeah we're all set. Thank you see you next month.

B

I don't want to take a break. Let's go one more keep going because I have to go yeah. Let's do.

E

The easy one: well I'm just going to read this uh and then we'll keep going. I can bring it up.

B

This thing is driving.

B

Nick this is killing me for here. No, I'm gonna read that yeah. Well, it's right. There number.

B

Five, I didn't get a copy. It's going up there right, oh okay, so this is number five petition.

B

Of dagny taggart llc owner for property located at 93 pleasant street, wherein permission is requested.

B

To allow the removal and replacement of a portion or all of the existing stonewall on the site as.

B

Per plans on file in the planning department said: property is shown on assessor map 107 as lot 74.

B

Lies within character, district 4 and the historic districts and who's presenting good evening.

M

Chairman members of the commission, tracy kozak with our cove architects here on behalf of the.

M

Applicant we're back, we took the comments received at our last session with you and excavated back of.

M

The wall we had a number of um specific experts come out and prepare shoring plans to stabilize.

M

The wall during construction, which is our intent, you can see from the attached documentation.

M

Letters photos and analysis that once they did fully excavate the entire back of the wall,.

M

Some things as expected, and a few surprises as well, specifically the the walls not stable in.

M

Summary and there's a bunch of reasons why and I'm happy to go into that.

M

As such, um the shoring plan is described in here. How they'll do it the components how it.

M

Goes together, it will hold the wall up during construction, but because of the way the wall.

M

Exists now the stones, don't all touch each other. There are gaps, there are disheveled because it.

M

Has moved over time because it was not built to hold back the earth, um there is a solid chance.

M

That, after the shoring is removed, there may have been settling, which could um cause more risk to.

M

The wall than it would be to simply rebuild it so to clarify we're not asking to remove the.

M

Wall, we're not asking to replace the wall, we're asking to rebuild the wall in the same place in.

M

The same size with the same stones so that it is solid and secure in the condition that it exists.

M

um There are this has happened before in portsmouth in the past few years, then our cemetery.

M

Wall was rebuilt, 2016 wentworth, gardner stonewall was rebuilt in 20 15. um and, as mentioned earlier.

M

This evening, upon consideration of removing an entire historic house, we don't take this lightly.

M

We are looking at all the conditions specific to this very wall, we'd love to keep it there. It.

M

Would make everybody's lives easier? It would be beautiful and great, but it is constantly moving.

M

It's not going to look like if we do nothing. It's not going to look like this in 20 years.

M

Because it's in a process of continually falling over and being put back with more bits of mortar.

M

And brick and chinking, so there is no moment in time to stop that wall unless you rebuild.

M

It in a way that it doesn't keep falling over the previous factors, review factors that were.

M

Mentioned earlier this evening, when one is considering removing a structure in this.

M

Case we're rebuilding it. The current condition is compromised. The historic configuration is altered.

M

This is not what it looked like when it was built because of the added mortar and chinking and gaps.

M

In the wall, and then the risk factor is, is that it continues to lean over and eventually, if it is not.

M

Maintained someday it will fall over. We don't want that to happen. We don't want it to happen during.

M

Construction, we don't want it to happen in the future. We want the wall to be there forever. So.

M

um I'm happy to go through the details and the letters uh or to answer any questions.

M

We also have members of the construction team and the masonry team here, if you would like.

M

And then, after this topic, just this might be a non-sequitur but a condition of the approval.

M

Of the building of the new addition behind it was to bring a sample of the brick, which I did.

M

It's sort of a different topic. I don't know the then you to do that, but it's here, if you want to.

M

Happy to answer any questions, um questions questions comments about this question.

B

You have the mason here about um john turner, consulting. Is it.

B

Oh, I'm sorry, martin, so okay, um you're going to you're proposing to take the wall down.

D

Put in a foundation put in drainage, restore the wall to what pattern would the restoration.

D

Finished product look like it would be put back in the same arrangement. It is now the.

M

Top capstones and correct me: if I'm wrong, the masons are here. The top cap stones would be.

M

It's all recorded and how it's being taken down it would be put back in the well. You.

M

Might want to speak more specifically, you're doing the work. This is bernie lee from sabrina.

U

Good evening, chairman and members of the commission and mr cracknell, as we described on the.

U

Last meeting the wall be cataloged via pictures and a numbering system on the front of the wall.

U

The wall be constructed in everything, that's visible now the cap and the wall down to the brick.

U

Layer will look use the same stones that were there before and be constructed in the same manner.

U

So visually it's going to look the same way. The back of the wall is where the enhancement of the.

U

Reinforcement reinforcing and the concrete will be placed which, if it were today or today, you cannot.

U

See so the two dimensions, the top and the front will look the way it does now in these photographs.

B

Thank you, thank you would would there be and it would be a mortared wall. It would be reinforced.

D

And it would be mortared, all the joints would be mortared and it would be structurally declared.

D

This structurally sound and structurally safe. Yes, you would not see even the amount of mortar that.

U

You see there today, it would look more like the dry laid fashion, because a a wall can be.

U

Constructed with having joint, no mortar flush with the joints or you know even trowed or jointed, it's.

U

Morted from the back on the base on the top on the bottom and on the back, so it gives that dry stack.

U

Appearance and dry laid wall appearance on the front. Sir, do you part of the wall.

A

Big stones, part of the wall, is little stones. How small a stone would you consider going back.

U

Any stone that's in that wall now is going to go back regardless of its size. The things that.

A

We might call chinkers or you're saying, are stones, yes, the when she's, referring to the chinker she's.

U

Referring to what might be where they took some smaller rocks and then morted them in, because.

U

The wall was leaning vertically, so they pushed what wall they can back, which created a gap that.

U

Was not a consistent gap so then they mortared and put you and you can see a specific angle.

U

And then they bordered it in. Thank you. Sorry. Yep.

U

They they stuck a rock in that location and then morted in the corner to hold those rocks.

U

Together from either failing or falling out, so you those chinkers would go back in, but they.

U

Would be mortared from behind and adhered from behind with the mortar, so you'd have the same.

U

Look but you wouldn't have the mortaring on the front to try and accomplish what they did.

B

um Thank you is safe to say um not being a mason, but is it safe to say that most.

B

Of the mortar that you see in this wall was done by maybe somebody that wasn't a mason or.

B

um Was done as an emergency repair.

B

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that the mortar that we see in that wall.

B

Especially lower, etc that that was done as a repair type of situation. Yes, I'm not going to.

U

Speak to because I believe a mason did, one of the one of the repairs was done by a mason. I'm not. I.

U

Couldn't tell you whether it was or not, but yes, it looks like it's done in an emergency fashion.

U

Now we need to to stop the bleeding and stop the movement, so let's fill it with something and when.

U

You have a gap that gets down to a certain size. Putting a stone in there is an effective, so you're.

U

Going to put mortar in yeah, thank you chairman, I'd like to address the committee, because my.

J

Recollection and please correct me if I'm wrong the last time mr severina, mr severino, is that your.

J

Name or is it the company, I'm sorry I'm bernie lee with severina. Last time you spoke. I took away that.

J

The the wall for various reasons, one of which was that it had evolved over a long period of time,.

J

Could not be reconstructed the way it is, but that they were actually going to be able to.

J

Create a better version, the new version would be better, and now what I'm hearing is that it's.

J

Going to be from the front exactly the same, and I'm wondering, if did I hear correctly, the first.

J

Time and if so, what has changed? um What I was addressing, then, was the emergency repair that.

U

The chairman is talking about it. It was it'll, be laid back with the same stones but built in their.

U

Manner that was built originally, where you don't see the mortar right, where they didn't use it as.

U

Well, they didn't use it because the line based mortar etc, they didn't create large joints like.

U

You've seen a lot of your historic buildings here. The bricks are a lot closer together.

U

And now we've gone to a standard because of standard brick sizing and standard mortar coursing.

U

Everything's 3 8, 3 16s, so we're we're going to achieve a look of the wall. That's more original.

U

Back the era it was originally built in the emergency mortar, that's been jammed in these.

U

Joints is what we're going to take away, but I'm also correcting, if I'm wrong, I'm remembering that.

J

Because there were so many different eras, if you will of placement of stone and so much variability.

J

In size and method of placement that it was going to be impossible to recreate this, am I.

J

Am I misremembering yeah, I don't think they said impossible, but yeah. No. I think that was more. I I.

U

Think what we were trying to achieve part of what? What got integrated into this wall when.

U

It made the repair, some rocks had fallen out and modern blasted ledge has been incorporated into.

U

The wall and the public had which we agree with, had made a comment that well that's part of the.

U

Wall has evolved over time, so we said all right. Well we're going to we'll put the wall back to.

U

The way it with all these same stones that are there so the wall looks exactly the same, but.

U

We'll get rid of that mortar, that's infused in it, so we still have that same evolution over time.

J

And one more question- and I think pat pat bagley are you here? Are you going to be speaking? Is these.

J

Pictures the pictures that she gave to us um for a wall that's compromised and at risk. It seems like.

J

There's a lot of heavy material, that's being leaned up against the wall during construction.

U

I believe the back of the wall is at. This point is coned off after we excavated the test pits.

U

Though, there's um there's six or seven feet that the walls combed off that after we found.

U

The conditional wall there's there's nothing now stacked behind it. I'm not sure when that.

U

Picture was taken, um she says it was taken this week yeah. um The last time I was there was a.

U

Couple weeks ago, so when I was there, it was coned off and you could walk behind the wall.

B

Okay, any comments before I open up. I um I just wanted to say that um tracy we're mentioning other.

W

Walls that have been rebuilt, so you mentioned the one with gardener wall and if you were going to do.

W

What they did to the one with gardner wall that'd be fantastic, because a historic mason just worked.

W

His way down the wall, replacing only those stones that had come loose, he wasn't removing them and.

W

Numbering him and hoping that they were all going to get back together again, there was no.

W

Question about the filling in between the rocks once you dismantle that wall, it really is just a.

W

Facsimile of what was there originally and all of those repairs are sort of inherent flaws that are.

W

Part of the law, so it is really hugely different than some of the walls have been rebuilt. Okay,.

D

um Just a quick question.

D

You own the walk or the the owner owns the wall correct and is responsible for the wall. Has the.

D

Building department gotten involved in whether this wall is safe, and has you know that you need.

D

To bring it up to code that you need to make it safe that it's next to a public pathway.

D

And and uh as the building department said, you know we're looking at this this time, no.

F

Okay, so I'm going to open this up to the public now, so if anybody would.

B

Like to speak about this proposal, please come forward. Give your name and address.

B

Of the amount of people, I would like to limit this to uh three minutes.

B

Which is pretty standard amongst the other boards, so please try three millennial minutes.

Z

The polydura middle street in portsmouth.

Z

um I remember correctly way back when this project was being discussed, even the permit for the new.

Z

Building that is going to be in that built in that area was contingent upon keeping the wall.

Z

Consistently, I've heard that all of a sudden, not surprising to me, the wall needs to come down.

Z

um Yeah, do you have a quite a situation here.

Z

I was, I went to take a look at it. They dug up probably six feet of.

Z

Soil right next to the wall, that alone increase the instability of that wall. I.

Z

Can tell you that? What other pictures that you that you've shown the one that has a long trench.

Z

On it, I don't know nick if you can bring it back, yep.

Z

Yep right there on the left, uh that's that trench right there dug out.

Z

300 years worth of soil of history- and there are several bands that are on this- that you.

Z

Can physically see on on the terrain, that is on the other side of the trench.

Z

Right there, so you have different bands, show different, probably different things that were.

Z

Happening historically uh at the very bottom there is a darker layer is probably something.

Z

Happen there during the fire in 1813. I think it's very safe to assume that, because of you.

Z

Know ashes the darkness of it now there was supposed to be an archaeologist it in that.

Z

Property, the minute that they put a shovel in the ground. That was another stipulation that.

Z

This commission made was there an archaeologist there? What happened to the soil that was taken out.

Z

Was anybody taking a look at all those bands and saying yes, I guess it's like a different periods.

Z

In the history of this property that goes back 300 years, that, to bet to the best of my.

Z

Knowledge- and I don't know all of the the things that happened behind the scenes did not happen.

Z

So that trench alone to me has created a lot of inconsistencies to the stability of that wall.

Z

Now I understand that when they build this is going to create. This is going to get in the way.

Z

But I knew that from the beginning from the very beginning that this wall was going to get in their.

Z

Way and this commission kept saying you had to keep the wall, you had to find ways of safeguarding.

Z

uh The stability of it, you have to come back to us and let us know what you're going to do about it.

Z

I mean, I think I have a pretty good memory about those things. We have many developers in our city.

Z

Are better are asking forgiveness that they are asking permission so are we going to do.

Z

Yes, we're going to say: okay, take it down, you'll, bring it back the way it used to be.

Z

Really is that what's going to happen, or are we going to be a.

Z

Couple of years from now someone is going to say: oh I'm sorry, but we couldn't do it.

Z

um Yeah, we can imagine something happens, it just fell. We've had enough of our history.

Z

Deleted because of this kind of thing now, I did write some some things, some thoughts, but.

Z

um I would like to know I mean you do have a a decisions make about this and.

Z

Considering all the points that you have argued throughout the whole history of the development.

Z

Of this property, I don't feel like we have answers. I don't feel like I have answers. I.

Z

Mean I'd like to know what happened to that soil? Did anybody look at it? Is there any kind.

Z

Of fragments in there yeah you've asked that question a couple times now. Can you let some.

B

Other people express themselves I I would like to be able to take it if, if the uh just.

Z

Wanted to say, if I can get a copy of that picture, I would like to take a look at it.

Z

Closely, so I don't know if that's something that nick can arrange just printed out.

Z

All right! Well, I thank you so much for your attention and uh one more remark.

Z

During my last meeting that I was here, somebody said about the wall. This is not a museum piece.

Z

I don't know who said it, but I remember that all right, let me tell you something.

Z

The whole historic district in portsmouth is a museum piece and you are the curators of it.

Z

It's a big open air museum and it's there to be safeguarded. So you got to be careful what you.

Z

About what you decide on, thank you so much you're welcome right. So who's going to stand up first.

V

I'll try and make this quick each trace 27 hancock straight. I ask you to consider not holding the.

V

Public hearing tonight for the demolition removal of the stone wall to be rebuilt at a future date.

V

For the simple fact that you, the hdc, already had a public hearing on january 4th, the hdc voted no.

V

The developer has come back with how they intended to buttress the wall, to be administratively.

V

Approved they never did publicly unless you granted the developer approval non-publicly.

V

By the hearing and vote held publicly was no by the hdc that was january 4th with a legal notice.

V

But the hearing and vote held publicly was no by you. The developer tonight wants a second.

V

Public hearing on the same issue, this is in effect a second bite at the apple.

V

It's against state law versus by fisher v, dover.

V

I ask you to please get the appropriate legal advice on this before you allow the second public.

V

Hearing second bite of the apple to occur on the same issue. The project would have to materially.

V

Change before you even consider bringing it forward, it has not the original approval of the.

V

Entire project by the zoning board of adjustment was given only subject to the wall. Staying.

V

It's not right to allow the cell developers agenda simply because it's more profitable for him.

V

I'd remind you that, however brilliant they are, the experts lined up to suggest the wall unstable, have.

V

Been employed by the developer, the developer is already dug with a backhoe along the driveway side.

V

To the original grade in a four foot wide trench, the length of the wall, the wall still stands.

V

Please remember: the exterior face of the wall is lined with the sidewalk, which is city property,.

V

I believe that this circumstance alone allows the city certain rights.

V

For this reason, I firmly believe one of the most historic sites in the city should remain firmly in.

V

Situ, certainly until you've sorted out the legal timelines for different boards and that of the hdc.

V

Some of the notices for public hearings for this particular developer have been.

V

Legally noticed properly, others have either been pushed off or contained.

V

This is not proper and we are now holding a hearing on the same topic. A second time.

V

And dover v fisher says no. Thank you very much for your time. You're welcome. Thank you.

AA

Good evening teacher hood at 280 south street, following up on two previous speakers,.

AA

I ask you as a historic district, to look at what the effect was of the meeting that you.

AA

Had in january, the assignment was which was agreed to by the developers architect to come.

AA

Back and tell you how they were going to support the wall during construction.

AA

That did not happen. We got the same presentation again taking the wall apart.

AA

And putting it back together again alters the history of what we have here. Please.

AA

Hold to what you should be asking for.

AA

This wall has three 400 years of history in it to take it down and put it back, is altering history.

AA

The next thing I would like to address is the four foot trench.

AA

Did anybody know that that was happening.

AA

Do you think that affected the wall? Do you think that effect of the stability, I'm not an.

AA

Engineer, I'm not anything as far as can make a judgment here, but I can tell you putting a.

AA

Piece of large equipment in here making that size of a trench just to prove that the wall.

AA

Was unstable and look at it probably did a lot more damage to it than would have been.

AA

Done if they followed what you had asked, I urge you to vote this down. The other thing that is.

AA

I will bring to your attention is on every one of these projects that has been put forward by.

AA

A certain developer, we put forward one project, we get it approved with our boards and then we.

AA

Come back and we change it. This is the perfect example. I urge you when you approve a project.

AA

And they tell you something: this important is going to stay hold to what the hdc is supposed.

AA

To do here, please support your residents, who find this very important. Thank you.

F

Mr chairman, you may speak.

E

Well, wait: there are people with their hands up, let's start with pat bagley.

F

Okay, thank you nick. Can you hear me yes, okay. Thank you, commissioners, uh for listening to.

AB

Another broken record, and I'm not speaking about myself, you are as tired as we are of hearing again.

AB

Are we not supposed to notice the wear them down strategy, a public hearing during a vacation week.

AB

The development team lied to you and by uh by extension, they lied.

AB

To us they not only said that the wall would be preserved, but that.

AB

It was in good condition. You approve this project with that understanding.

AB

Recently, a crew member on the treadwell job site told a friend of mine that there's.

AB

Nothing about the wall, that's historic. He also said people don't know it, but it's coming down.

AB

The court street wall has stood minding its own business and perhaps ours for over three centuries.

AB

Now, in 2023, the wall is an inconvenience to one person who expects you to approve its destruction.

AB

You are tasked with deciding whether or not to deconstruct history, and that is all.

AB

There will be no reconstructing history. That would be impossible. Thank you for listening.

E

Barbara jenny, barbara hi, thank you um so yeah ditto. I have lots of questions about the intent.

AC

Of the developer- and I um I own 94 pleasant street across the street, and attended a meeting that they.

AC

Held about potential blasting in the future and noise and at one point the woman running.

AC

The meeting for mcnabb said oh well, yeah. Of course the wall has to come down. We have to take it down.

AC

um So it's clearly cheaper for them to not have the wall there to move forward with.

AC

Their construction at the last meeting, where you already made it where you made a decision.

AC

um When somebody brought up the fact that you know the developer, if they find it too expensive,.

AC

To move forward can abandon the project and, and there are folks on your committee, that scoffed at.

AC

That, but that is an option that is absolutely an option, and I'm appalled that we're here again when.

AC

You've already made a decision, um and- and there is an important authenticity to this original.

AC

Wall I sent you an email, quoting walter, benjamin, a famous philosopher about the aura of the authentic.

AC

um And who you know wrote the element? Is your original's unique presence in time and space and.

AC

Entails the visible marks left by the passage of time and the history of which the object has been.

AC

Subjected to throughout its existence, right and any reproduction or facsimile is not the original.

AC

So I not sure why we're even here, wasting time again when the decision was already made, that.

AC

The wall needed to be shored up. I certainly would like the committee or the planning board to look.

AC

Into whether there should be fines for this trench that was dug, that certainly poses a threat to the.

AC

Stability of the wall and certainly reminds me of the firehouse just across the just across the way.

AC

Where incompetent builders over demoed and then the whole thing had to come down, so I really ask.

AC

You to do your job and look back and and say: no, we already made a decision, the wall will stay and.

AC

You will keep the promises you made. Thank you all right. Thanks, barbara there's, more um jeff barbie.

E

Jeff, do you have your hand up hey? Can you hear me yes cool, um so I live at 224 state street. I'm.

AD

One of the butters I'm actually standing in my living room right now. Looking at the wall, as I.

AD

Speak to you, the wall is there and the building is not so as far as I'm concerned. This is not a.

AD

New building with a wall problem, it's a wall with a new building problem and if you scroll.

AD

Up two pages: uh there's an email from john turner consulting and it says, uh proposed construction.

AD

Will require bedrock removal to approximately seven feet below the base of the existing wall.

AD

And the existing wall is almost seven feet high, so we're talking about a 14 foot hole.

AD

In the ground, through granite and bedrock and if digging a hole that size is going to damage.

AD

The existing historical assets around it, which have been there for over 300 years to the point.

AD

That we have to deconstruct them entirely, uh then maybe we just shouldn't dig the hull and.

AD

Maybe building the largest structure that we can possibly fit on. The lot is inappropriate. Thank you.

E

Thank you, peter whalen,.

E

Peter whalen yeah thanks nick. uh Thank you, commissioners,.

AE

um I kind of find it hard to believe that we're back here tonight discussing this.

AE

Because the commission did take a vote january 4th. That said, the wall was going to be preserved.

AE

And the contractor was supposed to come back with a plan to show how he was going to keep the wall.

AE

And do the construction and lo and behold a week or two ago, the contractor digs a trench, four foot.

AE

Deep trench along the side of the wall- and I want to know, did they come to the htc and ask about it.

AE

I mean I understand it's his property, but you know the htc is a is a quasi-judicial board that should.

AE

Not be holding a second public hearing, you had the public hearing on the wall on january 4th.

AE

Now now you're giving this developer a second bite at the apple. I I just find this very disturbing.

AE

The htc, you know I've lived here since 91. on gage street and the htc is just you're.

AE

You've got to protect this city. That's why we have that's. Why portsmouth is portsmouth.

AE

This developer is all about profit. He doesn't want to preserve this wall. The previous speaker.

AE

Said they're going to go seven feet below the wall into the bedrock it'll destroy this wall. This wall.

AE

Is going to come down, he's going to take it down and that's just wrong and the htc needs to step up.

AE

Follow your charter get some backbone and make sure that we preserve this 300 year.

AE

Old wall enforcement, so I I know that you'll do the right thing and I appreciate all your.

AE

Hard work, I know it's not easy. Thank you thanks, peter that that's it for the hands.

W

I got a vote: yeah yeah, that's okay,.

M

Yep, I just want to clarify it today, a couple of things um I I am impressed by the passion.

M

And interest in the history of the city- and I thank everybody for their comments on the wall.

M

I agree with you: it's a super important wall. um I I don't agree with you that you think we're.

M

Lying we're trying to take it down because of profit, because that is simply not true.

M

Happy to discuss that with you if you wish, but it is not the case um also at the january 4th.

M

Meeting the stipulation was that we come back with a shoring plan and our goal at that time was to.

M

um Develop a shoring plan that would protect it and if, during the course of that shoring plan, we.

M

Saw that the wall was at risk that it would in fact come down, and that was part of the approval.

M

And this is the same thing tonight and we have found through investigating the engineering in the.

M

Back of the wall that there is risk- and we do not want to take the risk of the wall falling down in.

M

A disheveled manner in which we cannot document it and put it back the way it was the ultimate goal.

M

Is to have the wall the way it is now forever, so this is the best way to do that. The trench in the.

M

Back of the wall was part of the investigation to determine the stability and integrity of the wall.

M

The stones do not carry some of the voids. Carry through the stones. Do not the foundation upon.

M

Which the wall sits is uneven, it's higher on one side and lower on the other, which creates a.

M

Line of shear force throughout the wall, which is one of the many factors which makes it fall over.

M

Every few years the trench there was doug about 10 years ago for the same purpose and at that time.

M

John wasstrom was the mason. He trunched it just as it is now. So that's not virgin soil. That was.

M

Backfilled 10 years ago, at that time it was noted and you can see it again in the photos- the back.

M

Side of that wall is fully dressed, meaning it was a full uh freestanding wall when constructed we've.

M

Talked about this before, I just wanted to remind those who may have missed the meetings. Thank you.

AF

Okay, no, no sorry, I thought we were done.

Y

Hello again marie bode um here I will be speaking on behalf of mcnabb properties,.

Y

And I was present at that meeting um january 4th and I do think that the commission will.

Y

Recall that there was some conversation and discussion and various approaches were thrown.

Y

Out at the development team, while we were here that evening and as a result of some.

Y

Of the discussion that was being undertaken by the board, our development team sort of.

Y

Had a side conference on the side here and I believe that what we are presenting this.

Y

Evening is a result of trying to do more due diligence and to present you all with more.

Y

Professional experience and information, which was something that you as a commission, had.

Y

Talked about whether you should get your own third party consultant to review this matter.

Y

Yes, we do take things upon ourselves as developers and I think you all many people disagree and don't.

Y

Think kindly of some of the development projects that we have done in the city. However, I think you.

Y

Will not find anyone that will spend the time the money, the energy, the resources and have the.

Y

Passion that mark does for restoring, improving and bettering the city. It is a historic city. We.

Y

Appreciate the historic wall, we are trying to do everything that we can to conserve it, maybe not.

Y

Entirely preserve it, but we do want to continue to have that in our design going forward. So it is.

Y

A little given a little take and we are coming before the board. I'm kind of surprised to hear.

Y

That we supposedly didn't follow protocol with public hearing and meetings and such I'm sure.

Y

That doesn't fall on the developer. It falls to the boards that we've presented to, and I know that I.

Y

Receive all the better notices for the company for anything that we are nearby and um you know.

Y

Again, I'm kind of shocked by that. So I'd like you just to consider that little sidebar conversation.

Y

That we had on the intention and that we do intend to conserve and preserve as best we can. Thank you.

B

Hey we have somebody else. I haven't closed it. Yet yeah come on uh doug, tilton, 58, middle road.

AF

But I'm here uh as uh representing temple, israel, the vice president of the house committee and I.

AF

Just more have a question uh about the because we share a property line uh if the work on the.

AF

Wall which follows our property line will fall, will follow some of the same description of the.

AF

Construction uh or or the work on the wall would also be on the other part. You can see it in one.

AF

Of those pictures where it current, where it turns at the 90 degree and goes up the property line and.

AF

I'm wondering if the process would be similar for that part of the wall as it would be on.

AF

Court street that part where the flag is up that way. Some of the wall right there looks similar.

AF

To the part on court street, but then it kind of tapers up because of the slope and a lot of the.

AF

Walls of kind of fallen asunder, but I was just wondering what the process would be there crazy.

U

Thank you, sir. The wall will be reconstructed from that street.

U

Corner you see there all the way back to the other corner that abuts you, where the large.

U

Tree is so that wall will be completely reconstructed; parts of it are missing now.

U

Actually, parts of it have fallen down so it'll be constructed in the same manner.

B

Okay, so now it's time, okay, thank you. um There's there's, obviously a wide uh difference between how.

J

People perceived the last meeting regarding the subject and my understanding at the time was that.

J

They were to go back and and get some experts and find out what the options were. I.

J

There wasn't an explicit statement made that if there are no other good options.

J

We are there by giving you the go-ahead to tear that wall down. I don't think that was ever said.

E

Well, that's why they're here no yeah, but I tracy alluded to the fact that we had. We had said if, if.

J

It's it's the only possible option that we're going to give you that approval, and I don't.

J

Think that was ever done, and so here we, you know it's it's groundhog day and I just I just wanted.

E

I'd like yeah, are you done yeah yeah? I just would like to speak to the process related questions.

E

Maybe to clear the air and have us refocus our efforts on the proposal in front of us.

E

As far as I understand, there is no requirement for a building permit or htc approval to dig.

E

The trench, regardless of its impact, if any, on the structural integrity of the wall.

E

So I wasn't aware they dug the trench. I don't think anybody else was in city hall, because.

E

They didn't need a permit to do that, at least not under the htc rules, the procedure or any.

E

Of the the permitting here, obviously, if the wall was to have toppled, they would need to.

E

Come in here to deal with the toppled wall, but it doesn't appear to have toppled you. It was.

E

Part of the I think, you've you've, you've been clear and I think uh joanna's right.

E

You presented in january a proposal to remove and replace the wall, and my recollection is.

E

You retracted that, based on feedback from this commission and the public as you've stated tonight,.

E

So, in fact, the the decision of that january meeting was to reevaluate on your side again the.

E

Structural integrity of the wall with the clear goal in mind of shoring it up, so it doesn't have.

E

To be removed and replaced, that's what was decided in january, so you, my recollection of looking at.

E

Even this application is there's three pieces of at least three pieces of new evidence as a result.

E

Of your efforts from january to tonight, you've got a structural engineering report on the risks.

E

Inherent in his mind of showing that wall and what you may or may not end up with after you've done.

E

The utility work, the blasting and the excavation behind the wall, and that engineer has determined.

E

He can give no guarantee when that jarring is removed, that that wall isn't going to topple.

E

Again at 50 000 feet, maybe in in interpreting the report, but we have a structural engineering report.

E

About that the stability of the wall, you did the trenching investigation.

E

To evaluate further the usefulness of that report and whether you could shore that wall.

E

And you did a risk assessment of shoring and you're here tonight, because that risk assessment.

E

Has indicated to you, through your third party professionals, that there's a substantial risk.

E

That that wall is not going to be in good shape after you do the whole ramming of the of the.

E

Granite, that's underneath it and behind it. That you now know is right underneath it because you.

E

Excavated which you didn't know in january, so there's new information that you've brought to.

E

This commission and when you brought it to me for filing you're here for a public hearing, because.

E

It was clear this was not the admin approval that was agreed upon in january, which would not require.

E

Notice or to a butters or be scheduled as a public hearing, because it was assuring so we we scheduled.

E

A public hearing tonight to look at something different with new information and I think in.

E

Fairness, perhaps to the the members of the public that feel like this is somehow a fisher versus.

E

Dover problem that it's a repetitive petition, I think it makes sense for the commission prior to.

E

Voting should they vote either up or down on the on the reconstruction proposal that they vote as.

E

To whether they they have the sole determination under fishes versus dover to determine whether the.

E

There's a material change in your application and um I think there is based on that new information.

E

That doesn't mean it leads in in my mind or any of theirs to approval of the of the proposal.

E

But I think in fairness to everyone in the room, including the applicant, the commission should.

E

First determine whether there's sufficiently different evidence before you now than january.

E

That fisher versus dover, which is the repetitive petition case that doesn't allow you to continue.

E

To keep coming back with the same proposal nullifies your ability to even be here. I think.

E

It's incumbent on this commission to make that determination and then either stop the proceeding.

E

Or continue the proceeding and not talk about fisher versus dover, okay, three minutes right.

B

Another process question now: if, if they were to take the wall down and restore it, and just let's.

D

Say they walked away from it after it had been taken down, could they be? Could their occupancy.

D

Permit be withheld, oh yeah, so there is not this fact that no one is going to build a building.

D

Spend millions of dollars not build this wall so that they don't get an occupancy permit.

D

I just don't see it well and and that that may be the case. And if there there are probably dozens of.

E

Ways to ensure uh compliance, surety guarantee that that wall is not only done right, but it's done.

E

Beyond just the occupancy permit, being the it's one means of surety, but there are probably others.

E

That could be worked out and I would say the last process question for you, folks, if you get through.

E

The dover versus fisher fisher versus dover question that there there has or has not been.

E

A material change in what's been submitted is, uh it is certainly within your purview to hire.

E

A third party structural engineer to confirm or reject or modify what's been presented here.

E

Should you feel we've done that, obviously, with the times building, we did it with the house on.

E

Prospect street you've got the ability to do that. Should you need it so, just putting that out, there.

J

May I speak to that that was brought up in january the the possibility of the committee doing that.

J

So, but what we have now is a consultant paid for by the petitioner and I'm wondering what.

J

How fisher versus dover addresses, that is, that is that it's not relevant to fisher.

E

Versus dover, typically, what happens in just to complete that we we always? We have historically.

E

And it makes sense to me the way we've done it. We only hire a third party reviewer to review.

E

Someone else's work product, we don't hire people to do their work right. We hire people to review.

E

Their work and keep keep them honest, that's the purpose, so we would. We were not in a position.

E

In january, to hire a third party person to review nothing, that's been presented now we.

E

Have a structural report yeah and we have a you- know, a documentation here of the of the trench.

E

And the conditions of that wall, that's what you'd have reviewed. Should you choose to do it.

B

Of the change in the um what is uh expected today um tonight that two months ago, it was let's.

B

As far as rebuilding the wall goes, um he said that he was going to go and take stones out that he.

B

Thought were more appropriate from the other wall, which is not going to be rebuilt. The one that's.

B

um Facing state street for lack of a better direction.

B

um And he was going to harvest stones from that wall and replace stones and what he said. Half an.

B

Hour 45 minutes ago, um is that he is going to put all the stones back in the way that they are now.

B

Including some stones that are not appropriate, they're, not granite or they're busted off pieces.

B

Of ledge or whatever stones somebody came up with and that he was going to dry lay these.

B

With the mortar on the backside and to me that is a substantial change, then going and harvesting big.

B

Stones because, obviously you know he's not going to go out and harvest little stones he's going.

B

To get big pieces of granite so that the wall could be rebuilt quickly. um I I think that that.

B

When people are talking about the fact that that this is that he's being cheap on this, just these.

B

Consulting, we now have three engineers here by the way um our cove and turner, and somebody else.

B

um And to take this thing down and store it off site and rebuild it, the way that he said.

B

That he was going to do this is not cheap. This is this is quality work, and um so I I.

B

That's my opinion of the difference between the proposal this month and the proposal in january.

C

I agree with you. I think this they're asking for a different thing here. um I was not.

C

As you said, you know, I was not happy with the idea of rebuilding a look-alike wall with that. Was you.

C

Know someone appropriate, but this is different. It is much more expensive than trying to shore.

C

Up the wall and keep it there as it is- um and you know I that's a huge task to number and label and.

C

Everything all of these stones and then put them back the way they were they are so I to me it's.

C

A totally different, I'm I'm willing to vote on this because it's a different application.

B

um Anyone else want to get into this difference, yeah. I would just agree. I I believe this is a.

D

Lot more evidence um and the proposal to come back and restore what is there.

D

Is totally different than what was proposed last time, so I agree. I also agree. Emotions.

E

Mr chairman yeah um a couple of comments. um I am kind of put off by the fact that someone went to.

A

The point to digging a trench, the length of the wall, the depth of the of the wall.

A

And never called I I don't understand why, considering the contentious nature.

A

Of our process and the public's interest that that you held all of.

A

That opportunity to yourselves, which certainly feeds, to my mind, into the.

A

Concerns that some of the people have voiced tonight as to your interests in this, I just.

A

Think it's bad behavior, yeah and shouldn't in any manner be compensated now trying to put the.

A

Sensible guy's hat on which is weak for me, we're not here to punish people. That's not the point.

A

I got it but at the same point this this is a punishing situation. I think for all of us. Okay,.

A

If what I see now is so- and I have my own opinions of things pardon me- I've been at this for a while.

A

I feel like I have justification for my opinion, some things. If, if I see better, I would be much.

A

More certain, but what looks like to me I've if you recall my conversations from some time back.

A

That the wall looks like it was built in stages. I don't believe that wall was built six feet.

A

Tall in one motion um and the coursing of it suggests that for certainty to me.

A

When I look inside the trench, I see soil zones which makes me believe that that lot was filled.

A

At different times with different materials, that's where we see the different colors, it's not much. We.

A

Get one little picture. Thank you very much. [music] um Looking at the interior surface of the wall.

A

I believe, as was speculated by the applicant with, unfortunately, I had no proof.

A

But I believe from what I can see I wish I could see better that this wall was.

A

Open on both sides, I would say, probably more than once, as it worked its way up so in effect, what.

A

We've got here is a wall that was never built to support the amount of load, that's against it from.

A

The parking area and certainly is in no position to go in perpetuity to support that load. The.

A

Excavations and the removal of stone the insertion of drainage, it's it's, not the wall that you think.

A

It is it's not the wall that I thought it was a month ago when we had our previous meeting.

A

So I think we're asking this wall to do something hold all this material back without any chance of.

A

Reinforcing it or strengthening it, I think that's a mistake. I think that our forebearers have left.

A

Us a little teeny bit of a ticking time bomb and you have dug it up uh and I think that doing.

A

Something responsible about it is a good thing for our community and I'll take whatever hit.

A

There is from the public uh and say that I think that that the plan before us makes as much sense.

A

As any that could be devised, I would be offended personally if someone told me that I was incapable.

A

Of rebuilding a stone wall like that, so I can imagine, sir, that you feel much the same way.

A

We need some follow-through it'd be nice to have a little bit more confidence than I've got right now.

A

But I'm I'm prepared to move forward on this aaron you've. um You know canceled an appointment.

B

What do you feel? um Well, I I yeah I don't like it. um I don't see how the wall will ever be able.

W

To be rebuilt, it will be just a facsimile. In my opinion, um I I've worked with many rebuilt walls.

W

And when you like, I said the one with gardner wall was, was built in place, one stone at a time.

W

Hauling those stones out of there, how will they ever be documented? How will we ever know how.

W

Will that ever be achieved who's going to oversee that process and we had a trench that was dug and.

W

There was nobody there to oversee that, so who's really going to do that. How will we know when.

W

That wall is rebuilt will just be like. Well, it doesn't look the same. It's too late. I I would be.

W

Much more in favor of of analyzing the situation and finding out. If there's, if there is a way to.

W

Safely, do it and I don't feel like we have that I I feel like the the experts. That's great, but.

W

They may be on the payroll of the developer, and I'd rather have somebody independent look at it.

C

I was just gonna say I um agree with dave 100. um I had talked to john wasstrom when this came.

C

Back to us several years ago- and he had said that he had had done work on this wall- yes had dug on.

C

The back side opened up, the backside saw that it was dressed, came to the conclusion that it was a.

C

Freestanding wall originally not a retaining wall, um it was also originally a dry laid.

C

Dry stack wall, which especially, is not a good retaining wall.

C

um And so I I agree for the function that this wall is going to serve in the present and in.

C

The future I'm looking forward into the future as what our best option is for keeping the wall.

C

um Tracy has said that they're willing to just shore it up and do the work and see what happens.

C

When they take the shoring off, maybe it'll be fine, but again it's it's not going to last, um because.

AG

It just it it's not meant to hold that. It's not meant to do what we're asking it to do anymore.

C

um So and like I said at the last meeting, neither of these options are perfect. Neither.

C

Of these options that we're talking about is are good, so it's kind of you have to take the best.

C

Path forward that will be um the best preservation methods for the future, and it's if it's, you can't.

C

Preserve it, then you replicate it in the best you can and it will be a replication.

C

But at least you're using the actual stones that are there. Mr chairman, um no okay! Thank you, mr.

N

um I agree with a lot what's been said, but commissioner um rudig with commissioner adams.

N

And I do look at all these reports and understand that the client has spent a lot of money.

N

You know asking professionals for their opinion um and I I have to respect those opinions. We have to.

N

um Obviously, I trust my fellow commissioners as well and their expertise, especially on the chair.

N

Originally, I was supportive of taking this wall apart and numbering each stone.

N

And having it be replaced in kind to the best of their ability. I think that is the.

N

Best option to preserve this: well, that's what I thought originally, because they had expressed interest that expressed their concern that the blasting other thing, the.

N

Ball might tumble down that's the last thing I would want to see. Is the world tumbled down.

N

So I agree with what's been said. I think this. This is yes, it's not ideal. um Life often isn't ideal.

N

But to save this world, have it not come crumbling down? That would be the last thing. I'd want to have.

N

um Or even fall on someone or no, you know something like that, um so I have to think of.

N

All those variables um and listen to the experts and that's my analysis. Thank you very much.

B

Okay, one more: let's go.

B

You want to speak, I want to speak, but no, no, she wants to speak, yes, go ahead, okay, go.

J

I'm a preservationist. Obviously we all are that's why we're here, but we also have to look to the.

J

Future this is a very contentious issue, there's a lot of public interest. I think it would be.

J

Premature to call about at this point without uh hiring an expert whose main focus is not to.

J

Tell the developer what he wants to hear: nothing against you, I'm sure your top of your craft, but I.

J

Think it would be better to hire a preservationist who has vast fund of knowledge around the subject.

J

So that we're not speculating there's still a high degree of speculation going on here. That's all. I.

J

Want to say yes, I would just say it shouldn't be contentious. This should be means and methods.

D

We want to preserve the wall, we want to protect the wall.

D

It is the north steeple effect simile because that's been totally rebuilt, a lot of things.

D

In this town have been rebuilt and I don't look at them as facsimiles.

D

um Especially this wall, now I knew you would be back because we left you. It was very irresponsible.

D

I won't say you're responsible. It was unrealistic that you are not going to do anything and walk.

D

Away from this wall- and it was going to be fine- that's that's not how things are done so.

D

I'm gonna, I I support the preservation of this wall by the dismantling it and.

D

The rebuilding of the wall- and I think it it'll- be the right thing to do for the wall.

D

If you want to save the wall, you got to do this. You can't just walk away from it.

B

Can I just close close it down? I I see I'm out gunned here, but I just want to say that that.

W

I I did feel after january that they would come back with a proposal that, for whatever it would.

W

Entail to try to preserve the wall now, if it, if it didn't, then I guess maybe the bad is on us.

W

But I look at all the sidewalks that I've had to deal with that have been closed because of.

W

The developers projects and over the past several years, I'm wondering why couldn't the the sidewalk.

W

On court street there be be closed and and that be a buttress on one side and buttressed on the.

W

Other side is there a possibility that that could be saved, and I don't feel like that. Has.

W

Been fully flushed out, I feel like we've sort of skipped over it, because three people have said.

W

It's in bad shape and- and I just I'm not going to vote for it because I don't feel confident.

W

All right, I am going to close this public hearing um the the vote. That's on the floor is.

B

um Essentially, for the rebuilding of this wall. First first, you should take a vote that there's.

E

Been a material change in the application, oh okay, which allows it to be back before.

E

You, mr chairman, I'd like to uh make a motion uh to call for a vote of confidence from the.

A

Commission that the digging of the trench and the demonstration of the interior conditions of.

A

The wall represent a significant change that allow us to take another view of this project before us.

A

Okay, I'll second, all right, um all those in favor aye against. No, no one no make that.

F

Does that happen did fisher? Yes, so it is a 5-2 vote. Okay, so it can proceed all right. Thank you.

B

um So now um I'm looking for a motion to prove this um project I'll make a motion to.

D

Approve uh the proposal to rebuild the wall deconstruct and then reconstruct the wall.

D

And exactly for a second exactly the way it is as as uh proposed tonight.

A

I'll second, that motion, mr chairman,.

B

Righty um we need some something back up here. Thank you. Conservation of historic materials.

D

Conservation, historic materials, preservation of the integrity of the district, [music] and it's.

D

Compatible with the it's related to the historic and architectural value of the existing structure,.

E

Can I suggest a stipulation uh that the the so-called documentation plan be submitted to.

E

The commission for administrative approval, so it's very clear who's doing what and how that.

E

Wall is going to be rebuilt in its existing form, so there's at least clarity on that.

D

I would also ask that a section be provided that shows the drainage.

D

That shows the the footing. What you're proposing for the preservation of the wall.

E

The documentation plan and associated construction details. Okay, those are stipulations that.

B

Okay, all those in favor say aye, aye, aye and against.

B

B

I'll be needing a break now, probably so, moved okay, so move five minutes. Take a break.

B

Okay, we're all back here, I think um so. We have number six petition of david, a.

B

Sinclair and nicole, j giusto owner for property located at 765 middle street,.

B

We're in permission is requested to allow the new construction of a detached garage with.

B

Living space, above as for plans on file in the planning department, said, property is shown on.

B

Assessor map 148, it's lot 37 and lies within general residence. A and historic districts.

B

Represent this good evening, jennifer ramsey with soma studios on behalf of the applicants dave who.

AH

Is here tonight, as well as um victoria breed is here from woodburn and company for landscaping? If.

AH

You have any questions about that, so we presented to. I think it was two months ago as a work session.

AH

uh The application is quite similar in format. The heavy lifting in the front is all these.

AH

Civil drawings, this project did go before the board adjustments for variances, as well as the.

AH

Technical advisory committee and it will go before planning so a lot of what you see in.

AH

Here is all the technical data of the before the after drainage resolutions, plantings and.

AH

I can talk a little bit about that, but um it's less about the architecture, so I'll jump to the.

AH

Second part of the package, so I don't know if you want to scroll it's the first sheet.

AH

That's labeled architecture, sheet1 nick and I it's probably like 12 pages in or something.

AH

Yeah I'll be the next one. There we go um so starting with this sheet, which, which does talk.

AH

About the architecture, we give you the floor plans first and second, and as the application reads, this.

AH

Is a first floor garage space above that there's an apartment. The garage space has a parking for.

AH

That apartment above there's two car spots for the main property, the main house and then there's.

AH

um An adjacent space that we're calling the garden room it's going to be use moore's.

AH

Living space, but it could be used for car parking uh changes on this plan view per.

AH

uh The last time we met is we did make the deck on the left-hand side of the drawing.

AH

We reduced that in depth off the building by two feet, so it is closer to the building.

AH

And you'll see that in the renderings and you'll also see some changes to the elevation. It's the.

AH

Second sheet, as you can see on, the screen is the apartment above, as we mentioned last meeting,.

AH

There is an interior stair, as well as an exterior stair that does access this apartment and there's.

AH

A separate stair to the back left of the drawing that accesses an office space which is private and.

AH

Should be used by the owner of the property and that's where that deck has been reduced as well.

AH

Three and I believe four um perhaps five shows the elevations. So on sheet three we made an.

AH

Effort to uh photograph details of the existing buildings on the site, these details are going to.

AH

Be replicated on this new, this new um garage structure, uh the details that have changed to.

AH

Be noted here would be. We have increased the height of a parapit wall on that the deck on.

AH

The left hand side of the east elevation. This is a detail that is extrapolated from the front deck on.

AH

The main house so we're recreating that and we're putting a shorter railing system on top of it. So.

AH

That provides privacy to the person on the deck privacy to people below and around the property.

AH

And it also allows us to bring one more detail in in addition to that detail,.

AH

What it springs from- and this is a detail that is very prevalent on the main house.

AH

Also prevalent, though less um I guess uh voluptuous, if you will, on the the.

AH

Existing carriage house is this: um the soft sweep detail that goes over the windows.

AH

um And some different fenestration on the main house, so we're actually using that and it's shown.

AH

Far better in the um the colored rendering the colored elevations and the renderings. But the.

AH

Base of our second floor will sweep out and as it comes across the garage doors and the.

AH

Primary windows and entry doors on these primary elevations it swales out a bit there's a soft.

AH

Curve which creates a soffit over those points of entry, that detail is what's considered number six.

AH

On this page we're calling it a horizontal trim and sweep detail. So that's it. That's added new.

AH

um The uh over the main garage doors, the um the door, if you will has been made smaller and the.

AH

Windows have been separated up in that gable dormer, so we've delineated. Those two features.

AH

um Additionally, so on the the what is this- the east, the north and east, both these elevations.

AH

Are the two that show all of these new details? In most prominence, I would say.

AH

And if there's any questions about the details, most of these were also presented two months.

AH

Ago so I can go back through those I'm just highlighting the changes that we had discussed.

AH

Sheet four is the the rear um facing elevation, south and west. These face.

AH

Neighbors yards predominantly, uh we did add that sweep over the the garage man.

AH

Door, if you will door one on the south elevation, and you can also see again that.

AH

um We've introduced that horizontal band that separates the first floor from the.

AH

Second floor that gentle sweep and then also the parapet all over the deck is shown there.

AH

G5 has um kind of a spread out elevation view. This is this is not really how you'd read the.

AH

Drawing but it is showing you all the sides in one view and then more importantly, it has.

AH

Our details, so the details on this page are going to only include features that are not.

AH

Currently, on the property, which are very few, in fact, so we have introduced a bracket detail over.

AH

The entry doors in the second floor, and then we also we have a column here that is part of that.

AH

That covered deck area, this in column in fact, has been extrapolated from columns that sit on.

AH

The farmer's porch or on the on the covered porch of the main house, we've adjusted the.

AH

Proportions a bit, but basically it does take its cues from existing columns on the property as well.

AH

And then we have our window and door types as typical and elevation views. uh The next sheet.

AH

We because it's hard to show some of these details on the black and white cad drawings.

AH

We had two elevations rendered directly from the renderings and just we're just giving you.

AH

Those kind of in in a um standalone view, and here because of the shadow lines they can show with.

AH

The shingles you get a little bit of a stronger sense of how that sweeping swale condition occurs.

AH

um What we in, what we thought- and I want to- I want to comment on this because we discussed it.

AH

Before, like the heft of the building, and I think it was martin who had brought up this comment last.

AH

Time part of the thought in extending that parapet well was not just for the privacy, but it kind of.

AH

Starts to extend the building a little bit more versus making it feel. I think the reference was.

AH

Having shoulders so we're hoping that by extending this shingled wall out a little bit, it's going to.

AH

Extend the sense of the building in a positive way, so you have two views that are rendered in.

AH

This vacuum, if you will, before we get onto the um the renderings of the building in context.

AH

um On this sheet, I had them put both existing and proposed you're. Seeing proposed is going.

AH

To the left existing is on the right, so you can see the most prominent views um which.

AH

Would be from town sidewalks and the neighboring property, so the first sheet there is showing the.

AH

Most common view of the lot um and the you can see that the new edition sits back quite a bit.

AH

um I want to mention there is a playground kind of in the foreground of that which, which kind.

AH

Of dissuades what you're actually seeing, but that new garage structure is set in the far.

AH

Back of the lot, we were able to locate it there by virtual variant. So it's tucked back in there.

AH

And um again, all of our exterior finishes siding colors, the all those schemes and.

AH

The details they are matching, so it's really tying itself to the main home.

AH

The next view is the interview off of side street there lincoln so you're, seeing.

AH

um Existing on the right, the proposed on the left and again, it's touched back in.

AH

There, the shape of the building, though it does look large in a plan view when you see it in.

AH

Elevation the way it curves around it creates a nice courtyard space. So again, he's tucked.

AH

In the back, it's creating a private courtyard space for this property. um I think it's also.

AH

Adding some amenities that are necessary for a multi-family property like this is.

AH

Foreign and then the final rendering is from um let's see 733 middle street, so this is.

AH

um What you'll you'll see at most of our changes, I think, are reflected here and that we pulled the.

AH

Deck back to feet, we've, given it a parapet well for privacy, which is a left, gives us a lesser rail.

AH

um And we've also shown there's going to be a newly proposed row of arborvitae there to.

AH

Create some separation and privacy, and I want to make mention just beyond the there's, the.

AH

Tall white fence here and it returns and looks like there's a gate in there for this resident.

AH

To walk in the backyard beyond that white fence, there is a continuation of a fence that runs down.

AH

The property line, so it's not totally open one property- is the next. There is a separation, we're.

AH

Not currently proposing to rebuild that fence to match the white one, perhaps in the future that.

AH

Would be the decision, but there is a fence there that accepts properties as well as the landscaping.

AH

And then the last sheets here are these spec sheets for our different materials.

AH

We have our our garage door system to be done in a wood mahogany. Like finish.

AH

um Marvin windows are around the property marvin entry doors for the main entry doors. We have a.

AH

Simpson, barn door for that back man, door for the garage, the utilitarian door and then, in the your.

AH

Package beyond these specifications, uh you have, I think, nine letters of a butter support. That's two.

AH

More since the last time we met and there's also two letters of support from real estate agents in.

AH

Town who have long operating history, supporting the fact that this is in a neighborhood that does.

AH

Have a number I think we decided 37 percent of this neighborhood is multi-family properties, so.

AH

This one is not out of sorts with its surrounding the demographic and the density. If you will.

AH

Questions I know we covered a lot of this two months ago. Some new details.

B

Questions here.

B

Rich david, I'm trying to thank you very much, mr chairman, I'm trying to put it in the form of a.

A

Question uh and I'm having a little bit of trouble, but um a lot of paving. I think the thing that's to.

A

Me stands out. It's an excellent design. Thank you. I I think that the sense of compatibility to the.

A

Existing structure, the creation of a courtyard- uh I I think these are all exciting things.

A

um But the price that we're paying for it is an awful lot of paving and, and is there.

A

Is that a sentiment that anyone else has shared uh is is, uh do you have any thoughts about that.

AH

um Well, let me look at the landscape plan because I think again seeing it there's that one rendering that shows you all the approach to work pretty well yep.

AH

I don't know vicky, you can speak to her, you might you want to speak to it instead of me.

AI

Good evening I'm vicki martel from wood burning company um yeah. If you want to bring up the.

AI

Landscape plan there so there's, certainly the driveway is expanded to access that rear.

AI

Building and that's certainly out of necessity- um and I don't want to overspect step by speaking to.

AI

The civil engineers plans, but while there is an increase in impervious surfaces, my understanding.

AI

Is that the amount of treatment that's occurring is greater and better than the existing condition.

AI

So there's a catchment structure underneath the driveway, as well as a rain garden to the left of.

AI

The driveway that's going to capture and create a lot of that storm water runoff. So the drainage.

AI

Condition and the treatment of that storm water runoff is better in the proposed condition versus.

AI

The existing condition- and I think that offsets the increase in the impervious coverage on the lot.

A

As much as a concern is impermeability, uh it's also the aesthetic just it did yeah it's just.

A

The amount of asphalt do we, I mean, I guess the part, do we need so many parking spaces here. It.

A

It just has a the asphalt the proposed asphalt here. It gives it much more of an institutional.

A

Look to me than than this family yard, certainly so in terms of the parking spaces, the parking spaces.

AI

That are closest to the road. Those are existing paved areas that are already present on site, so.

AI

The added asphalt is to access the garage phase in the rear of the property and the applicant, and he.

AI

Can speak to this more if you'd, like his intention, is to not install asphalt but to put in decorative.

AI

Concrete pavers and those are represented in the rendering. So while we can't 100 bind to that wrote.

AI

That to that decision, that that is certainly his intention and what he would like to do more moving.

AI

Forward with the project and that's shown in the renderings as well, if you'd like to look at that.

B

I mean I I having looked at this, I think attack.

E

um You know, I think that the the board needs to decide whether asphalt is appropriate in.

E

Contrast to the papers because they have a very different aesthetic to that streetscape uh from.

E

Lincoln, looking in the site, I'm guessing you did that for cost considerations.

E

But given they ask for the carriage house, it's it's certainly got to be considered here, whether.

E

Your pavement is acceptable. uh David sinclair sounds like you can hear me if it's justifying.

AJ

Here I totally get your sentiment dave a couple. Issues with this is right. Now it's a three family.

AJ

And we're adding a fourth city ordinances, make us have seven spots for four units. Additionally,.

AJ

With city ordinance says anytime, you have more than two units you have to be able to.

AJ

Head in and head out with the cars so as much as I hate taking up so much yard, it's it's required.

AJ

um Based on on the plan, um you have to be able to turn around and head out as well as head in.

AJ

Just dave to that point I mean you obviously need that much parking for four units. Yes, you.

E

Need that much uh pavement or mountable surface to get anything other than a fiat 500 or whatever.

E

It is in and out of the garage, so it's this this isn't overly paved or pavered in order.

E

To support four units of housing in this location, so you know, I think, the ordinance in the market.

E

Are are pretty pretty much aligned and you've done. I think a pretty good job minimalizing.

E

uh If you had ford 150s here, this wouldn't work. No, so um there's going to be so. What you see is.

E

What you have this is to me a minimalist approach, not a maximum. It's not ordinance.

E

Driven it's reality driven, so the question that needs to be answered is: is it appropriate to be.

E

Paved versus pavers in that configuration because there's no real room to reduce it.

AJ

My intent is to pave it. However, it's a hundred and forty four thousand dollars to pay uh papers down.

AJ

Yes, to put pavers down is 144 000.. I would guess- uh and I've done jobs this this size at.

AJ

Other locations in portsmouth and it's about 20 000 to use asphalt. um So my intention and.

AJ

My desire is to put pavers down it. Really is it's hard to make that decision at this point.

AJ

With interest rates where it is where builders are where they are, and the economy where it is.

AJ

um So I was kind of hoping with that to not have to make the decision tonight on that. If I could.

A

It's a problem that I've got, sir, is I've got to make that decision tonight? Excuse me.

B

Yes, yes, is this in our purview, I don't know.

B

Okay, yeah stanford, okay,.

P

B

Any other questions um I'll just ask one um so the deck I'm noticing on to the left- and I noticed the.

N

Picture three: uh the picture you have from 733 middle street. Yes, um it just seems that that deck.

N

Is just kind of giving them a nice view of the neighbor's yard? You know it was worse than the.

AH

Last iteration we've reduced it down, and it was all railing before which we all discussed would be.

AH

um Provide less privacy for both the person on the deck and the person in the adjacent yard, so.

AH

um We pulled it back, we put in a parapet wall, a solid enclosure which is in shingles to wrap.

AH

Around with less railing about it, so if you're sitting on that deck you're not looking down into.

AH

The yard you're looking out across and then we also installed this 8 or 10 12 arborvitae.

AH

Along that that well the number oh at least 10 or okay, we have a number of arborvitae at a.

AH

Height of eight to ten feet. Yes, so um I I don't know if that you actually have maybe nick the.

AH

Previous rendering, from the last time, you're here, okay, so yeah, we've actually reduced this.

AH

um This question this this app, you know the ass that you're talking about here um considerably.

AH

In the best interest of the neighbor and and for the homeowners yeah I mean I'm not, I don't.

N

Have I wasn't at the uh so this is I'm just comparing to what I see sure against nothing.

N

um To what's you know there currently, of course, um but this looks to me- I see the trees that are the.

N

Idea to screen to me that looks like hey, someone's gonna have a very nice view of my backyard.

N

um You know what I mean. I just don't see how that would enhance property values in the neighborhood.

N

um But that would be my concern and that the trees don't seem they're they're, okay,.

N

But they're not really providing any more screening. You know I don't yeah.

AH

I, like I mean I should mention this has come up before, but I'll just remind the board. The.

AH

Location of um this would be evident on the civil drawings, the location of the white fence that does.

AH

Separate the two properties right now is, actually, um I think it's four feet. The fence is four feet.

AH

um Further on, we could move that we could move the fence close further onto the 733 property.

AH

Because we are basically giving them some space, so we could move the fence take away some of their.

AH

Drive the perceived driveway and put in different plantings, which may be like the trees that we have.

AH

There now um that's not our intent to just disturb anyone else's space. What they're used to having.

AH

But in fact, where that fences is misleading in terms of where the property line actually is.

AH

um So we're not looking to disturb anything outside the fence and working with the space.

AH

We have, I just have a quick question, given we brought it up at the last meeting only as a.

E

Suggestion and clearly you've you've pursued some of the suggestions. Yeah.

E

uh I know I brought it up, but I don't know where it landed with everyone else up here, but it seemed.

E

To me advantageous to to recess, if possible, this deck uh off the outside wall of the building to.

E

Give a little more relief to the property line and if you look at the you know, look at the pointer up.

E

There you know the idea of shaving some off in order to it's a pretty big deck. I I think it's.

E

Good you remove the two feet, but I'm I'm not even a voting member, but uh you know trying to create.

E

Some relief along this long wall right we we did consider that um the reason we didn't is because.

AH

Underneath that debt, you can see the stairs coming down there, that deck is also providing covered.

AH

Entry for a set of stairs that goes up on that side, so if we were to reduce it down, it starts.

AH

To impact that, then we have a door, that's outside of a covered area. That's accessing a space above.

AH

um So it felt uh more appropriate to keep it the length it was and reduce it in so there's a door.

E

Here, there's a door there that goes up a set of stairs into this yeah, so I mean I, I would I'm only.

E

I'll shut up, but I I would pull it back, 36 inches and put a little if you need cover for the door.

E

You've got the ability to add that in that three foot, recessed deck.

E

And so you can get in there anyway. Yeah there's ways to. There are ways to rest that.

B

I mean you've already got a three foot shingle wall that you're railing. Why don't you make it.

B

A privacy wall: why isn't it a six foot wall.

B

Property line side there is a. There is a wall, there is, I can there's a six foot wall and then.

AH

Beyond that, there's a fence of a different material: it's is it as tall dave. There is.

AH

A there's, an existing fence that does wrap the entire property. I'm not talking about the fence.

B

I'm talking about the deck railing, the railing yeah, instead of a railing, why isn't it a privacy.

B

Wall well, they're, two-thirds, one-third! Now! Yes exactly so it's it's it's exactly so we did want.

AH

To still provide some railing, some relief, some ventilation- um it certainly could be the full.

AH

You know 36 inches or 42 inches for guard, but are you talking about just the side? Yes, just just the.

AH

Side on the neighbor's side just goes all it all the way up there and then drop it down to.

AH

Some kind of condos: what do they do? They put a six foot high wall and be you know, and the decks are.

B

All the same, but they put a wall in between each deck so similar to that. No, you know more classy.

B

Of course, because this is all wood, shingles and mahogany and stuff, even though I guess, if at full.

AH

Height on that side, like the condo partitions that we put up, yeah, which I'm not a big fan of.

AH

um Because those seem arbor cherry, when you see them from the street, uh I think it would be more.

AH

Imposing versus us having it drop down, have some railing a little bit of filigree and detail and.

AH

Mahogany change the materials I feel like what we propose is a good combination of things and still.

AH

Achieving a goal there's no way, there's no middle ground, and it's not, I think the middle ground is.

E

Stepping it back perhaps uh from the outside you'd have to sculpt that down, and then you haven't.

E

Achieved your objective to have it look right, it can't be just the right angle out there. It would.

E

Sculpt down and then you'd be standing there with no screen so yeah. I think distance is your best.

E

Method increasing it, but um is this really our problem? Well, this deck looking over somebody's.

B

Yard is it really our problem? Well, it was a couple months ago so well I mean our problem.

B

Is the design of the building etc, etc? I mean this is something that you know. Somebody else looks at.

E

What you got to decide I'll state that I'm a little concerned about the mass thing which.

N

Includes that deck yeah you know and then the fact that it you know one of our stipulations.

N

Is the conservation of property values? You know enhancement and I that concerns me. I don't see.

N

That well, let's keep going all right and I think it's not uncommon in areas with multi-families.

AH

Where you have, I mean to your point, um john about condos and just partition, while separating access.

AH

Space people look into those yards from decks from roof decks. I think nick you talked about having a.

AH

Roof deck in that situation. Personally, um I think where you have multi-fam, I mean on this property.

AH

Itself, someone could be walking up to with the apartment and just look across 10 feet and be.

AH

Staring at the back deck of the neighbor on the same the same lot perceptively. So I think that.

AH

That just becomes what it is when you live amongst in multi-family developments in neighborhoods.

AH

Close neighborhoods pocket gardens. This would be a change like everyone that lives around there lives.

N

With the current conditions, so we're talking about, you know making a change to that sure, and I know.

AH

There's been lots in that neighborhood developed in the last couple years in similar ways, so.

AH

um It would be a change for the person who lives there doing how necessary is this deck? We're.

C

Really like going doing, you know backflips over this thing. What if we just take it away, yeah.

C

I mean if this is, if we're like having so many, I think that's a great question and there's a.

AJ

Lot of moving pieces here, which most of you are pretty familiar with, there's some moving pieces.

AJ

In the background um and okay, I just don't know if we can make that determination today,.

AJ

Because of all these other moving legal piece of pieces that are on the forefront.

R

um And what do we? What I don't quite understand that I don't either, but let's stick with the.

C

Building, I don't want to take it, take it off at the moment. um I'll just say I mean I. I.

C

Think again, your design and detailing and everything is, is excellent for this piece.

C

um I do still have a little bit of concern over the massing as well um and uh but you know.

C

It I don't think that it's inappropriate or out of line with what the surrounding neighborhood.

P

Has in terms of the buildings and the spacing and lot coverage, and and such I.

C

Think I'm kind of sad to see a large green, open space be filled in again, just because.

C

uh I feel like we're losing a lot of our little pocketed green spaces through town.

C

um Of course, those could always come back in the future with some demolition, so it's.

C

Not like it's, but I I don't know it's, um but I I I'm not saying that it's inappropriate. I'm just.

P

Kind of voicing my own personal opinion, but I'm I'm supporting what you've got so far. Thank you.

D

I I would just add that yeah the massing does look a little heavy.

D

But if you look at the color renderings that helps, I would recommend that um I still.

D

Would like to have seen the roof, have some elements to it.

D

That helps with the masking eyebrow windows. Things like that, I'm assuming you have a open.

D

Cathedral, like ceiling situation on the interior in some of the interior, we did look at adding a.

AH

Types of dormering to break it up further, but these um you know it's all a hip roof, and these.

AH

Lengths of hips and the angle does not really allow constructability of anything meaningful.

AH

To be added, and then it's another element that doesn't exist elsewhere on the you know, we'd be.

AH

Adding almost a new element that doesn't exist on the main house or the existing heritage house for.

AH

Just the purposes of breaking up the roof, this is still very, I mean the main house has a large.

AH

Group, it just happens to be a story higher in the sky. You know so, um but from a constructability.

AH

Standpoint um with you know, the basic members we're assuming we'd be using to build this roof.

AH

It was going to get really tight, putting other things in there in between those gable. Those.

AH

Sweeping gable, dormers and then adding to them to the back side. Just didn't seem like the right.

AH

Decision because we'd just be adding something to the back again something new that doesn't really.

AH

You know I look at the back of this building, it is a a garage, it has a there's, a utilitarian feature.

AH

To it, I think the simplicity of it is a backdrop to the neighboring properties, there's something.

AH

Nice about it just being simple and and again the dark color it recedes versus jumping out at you. So.

AH

um I think all those things kind of work in the favor of the building, I'm glad you did that to.

D

The flare and some of the details and some of the the elements that are part of the main house so.

AH

I mean the flare, is it's subtle, but it's in person it's a really lovely detail um and not not easy.

AH

To construct necessarily so I think, that'll be a nice addition and it really makes a difference. I.

D

Think it, I think it makes a huge difference uh if it wasn't there. Thank you absolutely.

L

Where are we going? um I'm waiting is anybody else want to speak about? This is only this.

D

One: okay, all right! Would anyone in the public like to speak about this.

B

Looking at your idea of taking ability or.

AK

Shares my name is nicole bodo and I live at 733 middle street, and I'm here on behalf of myself.

AK

And also craig crowell who's here this evening and the condominium association as well. I sent.

AK

In a letter yesterday, and I understand that there were some technical difficulties with.

AK

Posting it because apparently, our firms security system is a little overzealous at times, um so I.

AK

Don't know if you have that in front of you or if it's available we just got it tonight. Oh okay,.

AK

So ellenac you have color photos. So that's good! That's helpful!.

AK

So I do appreciate um your hearing our comments, especially at this late hour. So as a preliminary.

AK

Matter I just wanted to note that the zoning board of adjustments decision to grant the variance.

AK

um Contained a very important stipulation, and that was that the design and location of the.

AK

Garage may change, based on planning board and historic district commission review and approval.

AK

So the changes that we are suggesting relate to the design and the location of the proposed garage.

AK

So the size of the garage is inappropriately large.

AK

And it's of a scale that is wholly and consistent with the other garages in the neighborhood, so data.

AK

That we have collected from publicly available information which is attached, as exhibit b.

AK

Which is a printout of an excel excel spreadsheet? I don't know if you can see it very well.

AK

Yeah there it is.

AK

So if you look at the data on square footage, you'll see that the proposed garage not not even.

AK

Including the deck, if you look at the plans, um it's 1970 square feet.

AK

The average size of garages in the neighborhood is 594 square feet.

AK

The proposed garage is larger than that of even governor john langdon's house.

AK

At 143 pleasant street, which is 1500 square feet, the only other garage of.

AK

A comparable size in the district is that at 880 middle street, which is 1496 square feet,.

AK

So this proposed garage it dwarfs the runlit mayhouse garage. That's.

AK

At 364 middle street and that is 704 square feet. So less than half.

AK

And even one of the few garages with that has living space above it in the historic.

AK

District, which is the garage that's attached to 700 middle street, is much smaller than the.

AK

Proposed garage, it's just 890 square feet, so the it's true that the lot size at 765 middle street.

AK

Is larger than many in the historic district, but it's not larger than the average lot size.

AK

So at twenty one thousand, three hundred and forty four point four square feet.

AK

It's approximately 200 feet smaller than the average lot size which you can see on exhibit b.

AK

So yet, despite this fact, their proposed garage would be the largest in the neighborhood.

AK

If it, if it's built as planned, the living areas of the proposed garage.

AK

And the existing buildings on the lot would occupy 31 of the lot the average.

AK

Ratio of lot size to living area in the historic district is 19 percent.

AK

The ratio of lot size to garage size at 765 middle street would also be disproportionately large.

AK

The average garage in the historic district historic district occupies four percent.

AK

Of its lot, the proposed garage would occupy nine percent of the lot on 765 middle street.

AK

So, based on that data, in order to preserve the historic character of the district and the values.

AK

Of the surrounding properties and allowing the historic properties to maintain their prominence.

AK

It should be reduced to us in size by at least 500 feet.

AK

With such a reduction, it would not be larger than the garages of the historic neighboring properties.

AK

And, as I said, they would maintain their prominence.

AK

So, in addition, the design of the proposed garage and the landscaping is incompatible.

AK

With the historic, the historic character of the district, the plans for the garage.

AK

That were submitted by the petitioners, which you can see there. That should be exhibit c.

AK

um Indicate that a massive u-shaped structure is proposed to be built, so this is u-shaped.

AK

There would be two equally large legs for lack of a better terminology, because I'm I'm not an.

AK

Engineer to the proposed garage against the two sides of the lot at 765 middle street.

AK

The this this design is inconsistent with that of the larger historic garages in the district.

AK

So, as shown on exhibit d which, if you scroll down yeah, that's exhibiti.

AK

The attached garage at 700 middle street has just one leg that extends from the house.

AK

And if you look further down and exhibit e.

AK

The garage at 364 middle street, which is, of course the runlette may house, consists of two legs not.

AK

Equal in length, with the longer leg, extending to the larger main entrance of the garage, so there's.

AK

um There's a photo there of you know from the distance. You can see the garage in the background and then there's a close-up.

AK

Of that garage that shows how sort of has one leg and then kind of a very short offshoot from that.

AK

So, um as shown on exhibit f.

AK

The garage at 180 middle street is a single, nearly symmetrical structure with central windows, flanked.

AK

By a door and window on the left side and a window on the right side and then, as shown on exhibit g.

AK

Is further down the garage at 143 pleasant street, which is governor john lange's house.

AK

Is of a similar design to that of 180 middle street with the addition of a shed.

AK

uh To the right side of the building.

AK

So is the petitioner is huge, u-shaped proposed garage, wholly inconsistent with the character of.

AK

The neighboring historic garages, but it is also detrimental to the values of the surrounding.

AK

Properties and in particular, 729 733 middle street condominiums, which is that's a photo of.

AK

What's referred to as as a as condominiums.

AK

So these condominiums are in a historic home that was originally built as a duplex in 1820.

AK

It's of the same vintage as the runlit may house, which was built in 1806.

AK

And it was one of the first houses that was built on middle street in portsmouth.

AK

So this uh proposed garage- what you don't see in in the application is that.

AK

The proposed garage will completely block the view of 733 middle street from lincoln avenue.

AK

So 733 middle street, which is on the right side of the building.

AK

It's really actually one of the earliest examples that we have in this country of what we know today.

AK

Is the in-law suite, um so the the front of 733 middle street can be seen from lincoln avenue.

AK

Even at night as as is shown on exhibit I so if you scroll down to exhibit, I.

AK

You'll see, there's a photo, that's 765 uh middle street to the left and then in the background.

AK

Is the front of 733 middle street.

AK

And then you can see there's a nighttime photo with uh 733 middle street. In the background.

AK

So if we go down to exhibit j.

AK

The photo rendering of the proposed garage is viewed from lincoln avenue. This demonstrates an.

AK

Apparent attempt to conceal the extent to which the proposed garage will block any view of this.

AK

Historic property from lincoln avenue, so the photo rendering that was submitted by the petitioners.

AK

Depicts a tree if you look at the picture on the left hand, side there's a tree placed.

AK

Next to the mud room of 765 middle street, which serves no discernible.

AK

Purpose other than to hide the impact of the proposed garage on 733 middle street.

AK

So, although the photo rendering um to the to the right on exhibit j shows 733 middle street as.

AK

It appears today, there's no photo rendering that shows the portion of the garage that is blocking.

AK

The front of 733 middle street, this information was was not submitted by the petitioners.

AK

So, in addition, as shown on exhibit k.

AK

Ording to the plans that were submitted building, the proposed garage will involve cutting down.

AK

Two of the few remaining trees on the 765 middle street lot: there used to be a lot of trees. There.

AK

uh So one of the trees they would be cutting down is a crab apple tree. That was a planet.

AK

Based on its size, it was planted over 100 years ago at the time that the main house was built.

AK

So they're going to cut away these trees, which will create the appearance of the garage as sort.

AK

Of looming over 7 through 33 middle street, um and it it appears that the petitioners.

AK

Have attempted to mitigate the myriad of aesthetic and and privacy issues that are.

AK

Created by the proposed garage by by walling off 733 middle street, with a line of arborvitae trees,.

AK

So planting a row of arborvitae trees, a few feet away from the front of 733 middle street, will.

AK

Accomplish nothing other than perhaps ensuring um that sunlight that no sunlight will ever reach the.

AK

Front of 733 middle street, no one wants to live in a cave and under the petitioner's plans. The.

AK

Quality of life of any current or future resident of 733 middle street will be substantially reduced.

AK

As they will lack any view or reasonable access to sunlight from inside the dwelling as a result,.

AK

The value of this home and the value of 729 middle street, craig crowell's home, will decline.

AK

Maintenance of the property will be neglected and it's highly possible that, like so many.

AK

Other historic properties in portsmouth will ultimately fall into disrepair and be demolished.

B

So um if you don't mind, I would like to interrupt you um at this point. You've made your point.

B

um Quite well, and essentially you know, we are here to vote on the design and massing.

B

And architectural details of this house- and I believe that you've made your point essentially.

B

About the massing of this uh project, and I'm just thinking that um that we should move on.

AK

Well, I I would like to propose a much simpler solution. I think there's a very simple solution.

AK

To this problem, okay, which was kind of brought up before by one of the commissioners um so and that.

AK

Is to eliminate the deck to eliminate the deck in the garden room, in addition to reducing the size.

AK

Of the leg of the garage that blocks 733 middle street, so if those are eliminated and reduced, then.

AK

733 mill street will still be visible from lincoln avenue.

AK

And the garage will not appear to loom over the property and the trees. The crab apple.

AK

Tree would remain in place and it would help to reduce the view of the garage from middle street.

AK

And it will be in keeping with you know the historic character of the neighborhood. So.

AK

I realize that everyone is very tired, I'm I'm very tired of myself. It certainly gives us.

B

Something to think about. Thank you very much, so uh yes, well! Thank you on behalf.

AK

Of myself and craig crowell and the condominium association for hearing our concerns this evening.

AK

Is there anyone else that would like to speak on this in the public.

AJ

Certainly, um this is more of a question. Is there any such thing as a historical garage.

V

Yes, yeah sure with the carriage house carriage houses yeah, because the model t was built in 1908.

AJ

That's why I asked you know when we're preparing all these carriage houses to a modern day garage.

AJ

I don't know if that's correct. Thank you. Okay, all right, there's some sort of point there.

B

It's already kind of carriage house, so you can't have two of them.

B

Right um so I guess I'm going to close this uh public hearing and.

B

um Look first, let me make sure I'm sorry. No, I didn't look no, but there's nobody. There's.

B

Nobody there and um looking for discussions and motions and all that sort of stuff.

N

um I'll just go first I'll I'll say as presented. um I can't support this application. I I just feel.

N

With the concerns from the director butter, um this deck that will be very invasive.

N

um You know I I can't imagine I I it's gonna inhibit their property values.

N

um That's not, you know why they currently live there.

N

um I have a hard time, sacrificing one you know, resident to give another resident a fourth unit.

N

um That that doesn't equate in my book. You know what I mean. um I want to give everyone what they.

N

Want, but when it comes to depreciating one and really putting in at a loss, um I I don't yeah.

N

It doesn't, I will, but also people hoarding this. um It's simply the massing and the um the integration.

N

Of property values that surrounded right well said: um anybody over here want to say anything or make.

B

A motion, but I I would just say I have a tough time in a supporting the idea and the notion that.

D

You're, being in your property that you should be able to own the view into other people's.

D

Property- and uh you should have there- should be no change. We live in a very dense city and.

D

That density, it comes with a certain. uh You know. Aggravation factor that yeah you're going to see.

D

Your neighbor's house, you're, going to your your neighbor's house, is gonna, maybe cast a shadow on.

D

Your property now there's there's talk of like well. Sunlight, won't hit the house well right.

D

Now, there's a major tree in the driveway: that's that's blocking the sunlight, I'm I'm just saying.

D

We we can't be that um sensitive to the notion that you have a right to a view.

D

um I I just that, could that could be taken to an extreme, and I just don't. I don't.

D

Want to factor that into my decision making about this project because.

D

You know the views, change, uh things, change, trees, die, trees, get cut down, new trees, get planted.

D

um Fences get put up, it's all part of living in a city and unfortunately I'm just gonna. You know I.

D

Like the commissioner said, not everyone's going to be happy, but we all got to tolerate each other. So.

D

um I'm going to support the project.

C

C

Building that's being put on the parcel, and I think that I don't know I I feel like even.

C

I'm sitting there kind of looking at the rendering trying to cover up the the deck.

C

Portion and saying I mean that may mitigate some of the the largeness that we're feeling.

C

From it- and so I I mean, I think I would be more inclined to support it. No problem.

C

If that part was taken off and just kind of simplify the building and then and and.

C

You know help your neighbor out a little bit or at least ease their concerns.

A

Mr chairman, yes dave I'd, love to jump in here. One thing that I heard earlier when.

A

You were discussing the idea of increasing the amount of uh opacity to the area of the.

A

Deck because of the issue of sight lines, we'll say uh in a way that was kind of.

A

Feeding another issue uh that it was increasing the faceless mass of the building, not not the.

A

Building is all faceless mass but increasing the facelessness of the mass of the building and and.

A

So I think, I think, maybe there's a direction to go, trying to put three or four different.

A

Pieces of this puzzle together and say maybe the deck is the thing that doesn't that that.

A

Really needs to get stripped off this, to make it more palatable to to many uh one of the things.

A

That I liked about this building- I still like I still appreciate about this- is how much it.

A

Is uh a derivative of the architecture of the main house, which is a lovely building which was.

A

Very forcefully, designed of features uh one after another, the eyebrows all over the serious siding.

A

The the tracery, the heavy brackets on the roof- it was all stuff put there for us to look at, but.

A

It's not filled with little ornaments hanging off everywhere, the deck and the this heavy staircase.

A

That we see on this proposed uh building are are not like the carriage house. That's here, which is.

A

Very simple and kept to itself so maybe stripping a couple of features off would make it a better.

A

Thing I also remain a little bit concerned over the paving uh I'm sorry if some people.

A

That don't think that that's an appropriate thing, but but I think that it's it's a thing.

A

That describes the density that I otherwise this building doesn't need. But that's just me.

A

Well, um thank you for bringing that up above my uh six foot privacy wall, because upon thinking.

B

Of it you know, and I'm not an architect, it wasn't right, it would have increased we're.

A

Doing something, though, we're all hearing you, you were doing something you're trying to to.

A

Move the ball. I think it just sort of demonstrated another thing, but I'm afraid that we've reached a.

B

Point where the ball's not going to move anymore, because there's only five of us here and we need.

B

Four votes, may I ask a question before you do vote? um If we were, I guess that's a two-part.

AH

Question, could we amend the application tonight to remove the deck or would you like us to come back.

AH

So you can see the application without the deck, in which case we would continue. I'm thinking that.

B

Something like this is a pretty serious change in your plans that you know you need to come.

B

Back with some changes- and um you know also we're getting a feeling that the mass is by itself- is.

B

Should be reduced, but that's simply because of the situation that you know we're in right now.

E

Well can for I'm not sure I've fully heard that from enough members, but that's maybe because I'm.

E

Not paying attention enough if the deck in the and the and the space below it was removed as.

E

I can as contemplated, and you reworked the openings. Obviously.

E

Those three openings we see on the screen because they've clearly change and probably the projecting.

E

Element over this lighting or whatever the doors there to the deck, would be recessed because it.

E

Wouldn't it wouldn't be projecting out half the depth of the deck right right? Well, I mean let's.

AH

The doors may stay because that's a garden room, so it's going to be used down below below. Yes, exactly.

E

Upwards change right: push that projecting canopy over the door or remove it yeah and go to windows.

E

So I think, there's I think, there's a understanding here that would all need to be reworked and seen.

E

As you suggested, so what I, what I'd be curious to know from the five members that are here.

E

If you're willing to do that as suggested, do we still have a massing problem.

E

uh For more than one member, that's here with what's left details aside for those openings is.

E

There a massive problem if the deck is removed and that projecting element over the doors is removed.

E

On that I'm just asking, so she has some guidance to come back here.

A

More than likely, it would change my opinion on that part of it could be supportive. Indeed,.

A

um Also, it would at another date she might have more voting members understood, but the.

E

People that are here, okay, I'd like to see it um yeah, I mean obviously my main.

N

Concern is that is that tech, and it does create this. I mean the massing, is big.

N

But it seems to be that the only concern from any about her it seems to be the most the the.

N

Deck and the massing on that side. Okay, so I think I would be more comfortable.

D

Yeah, it's a huge give and I think it would go a long way.

D

And reagan's the same okay, so so I'm the same. Hopefully that helps clear the air on the mastic.

E

uh So do you want to continue for a month, so you can rework that elevation.

E

They do need to see it uh yeah. Absolutely it's going to change. It's gonna have to mm-hmm.

B

Okay, so I need a motion for so moved. Second, all those in favor all right against.

B

Thank you. Thank you.

C

Your work session- it's like you, have to be so late work session.

B

Right work session: can we do it up here all right, five, more minutes.

E

Just leave this thing up here: okay,.

AL

AL

B

D

Up, I'm just being pushing doing a good job just being pushy. That's awesome.

A

B

Nick is trying to glad hand the people that we just turned away.

B

Yeah, so everybody goes away happy. I doubt that but yeah.

A

AM

Okay, yeah, I'm gonna, get started.

B

um This last work session requested by sean and mikio bardonia. That's close enough.

B

Property located at 39 dearborn street, wherein permission is requested to allow.

B

Exterior construction to an existing structure replace the existing roofing.

B

Structure, add a new side and entry edition, as per plans on file in the planning department.

B

Said property is shown on assessor map. 140 is lot, 3 lies within general residence, a.

B

And the historic districts. So if you would introduce yourself when you speak.

B

All as well, um I'm amy dutton, I work out of kittery and I live in portsmouth and I am.

AM

Representing the bardons um sorry, I am so tired, I'm speaking out loud at 11 o'clock at night.

AM

um So, thank you for your time. I know you're. All I've already worked your full days as.

AM

Well, so, thank you paid big bucks, though about the money beautiful, so thank you so much for guiding.

AM

Us through this process, um so we were here last month and um listened to what you were saying and.

AM

um I think what I'll do is just point out the revisions that we did um as we kind of scoot.

AM

Through the drawings, so there were three main things that we changed. One was that we connected.

AM

The family room to the existing shed and let me just back up a little bit because that's how tired.

AM

I am the um boa did approve us last wednesday, so we do have voa approval on this um and we still do.

AM

Have to get conservation, commission and one more remembering that our planning board plan of work.

AM

um From the buffer yeah yeah just so you knew where we were um so we um data connect the.

AM

um The shed and the family room that meant that we raised the shed roof about 30 inches and that.

AM

Now matches the kitchen pitch and height, um I think providing a lot more balance and.

AM

Obviously, curb appeal- and we also um pulled the entry back so that the railing of the.

AM

The second floor deck dies into the wall, so those are the three main things that we did.

AM

um And I think at that point I do want to ask questions. Is that maybe I wasn't here so.

B

um We're gonna ask a whole bunch of questions.

AM

But yeah he wasn't here and I'll I'll say if you guys weren't, um so I've gotten some.

N

Letters on this just concerned after the keep some residents watch the last work session.

N

um And after you know I I was zooming in, but I was very much under the weather and it was.

N

A late night, um so my biggest concern, I guess, is losing the cape. Okay. You know the fact that that.

N

Like architecture is very much our purview here and changing the whole architecture, I understand.

N

There are dutch colonials that exist in portsmouth, but not here, you know what I mean is this. This.

N

Has always been a cape, so my I would. I would be very against rewriting the history of this house.

N

um Because, essentially, when you change it to a whole different style, we're eliminating.

N

That history of the cape existed, and you know you would not be able to.

N

I would be able to tell them that was that house. You know.

N

If someone came proposed and it's not what it used to look like back when it was originally.

N

Built um so I'm I'm okay with the masking and stuff, but just the loss of that dutch like if that.

N

Dutch roof was the cape, just a gable roof yeah or I mean if if you could see the cape still, I can't.

N

See the cape anymore, that that's what um yeah! That's what I can't get behind! That's all! So in.

AM

Do you mind if I respond um in anticipation of having this conversation, I did a little exercise.

AM

um It was too late.

AM

AM

um So I just wanted you to see the math that I'm working with in my mind.

AM

um So I have here the proposed the existing is on the top left.

AM

The post is on the bottom left and um the notes that I'm making and then the the images of the.

AM

Two bedrooms, so you can see where we are with head height specifically, um so if we, if we just keep it.

AM

As is as a cape right now, we have a roof rafters of roughly six inches. I think we're guessing.

AM

um You can see there, some of them are antique, some of them are not. We don't actually know.

AM

um And then I put on a 312 pitch, which is the lowest recommended for this region and for code.

AM

I get five feet: two inches for head height.

AM

And that would be knee wall, even though it's supposed to be an exterior wall and.

F

Yet it's acting as an ewall yeah right and with that I don't get a bathroom, because I.

AM

Need six eight for head height for a bathroom so at the wall or where yeah.

F

At the exterior wall, oh well, I need six eight at the back of each drawing fixture.

AM

Now it's the bag, but you can't have applying fixtures on the exterior walls. Now we can, if we.

AM

Can chase them all the way down from the interior, so I could put a like. We often will put a toilet.

AM

But we have to chase them all the way down from the interior wall um and the showers, often on.

AM

Right that exterior that exterior wall, so I just wanted to show you the math that I'm working with.

AM

As far as code, there is a alternative since we're just talking here. um You've got your shed roof and.

B

Edition on the cape, that only gives you five two you could compromise at 312. You could.

B

Push that up to 212 something like that that will give you. I don't know another.

B

Foot and then maybe in the center, where the bathroom is have a gable dormer on the dormer.

AM

See where you're saying you're saying cable dormer? Well I mean it's done quite a bit actually up in.

B

The maritime that was already the maritime uh dormer that was originally proposed in 2017.

AM

Correct and it was denied yeah for the front, because what I do what I.

AM

Drew actually was approved. This was approved, yes, yeah, oh surprise, on the back, so this is.

B

The back of the house- maybe you could do it there, put the bathroom there.

C

um I was, I was wondering, as I was thinking about this in last month. I also said the.

C

Same thing that I was concerned about losing the cape losing the history of what is what is there.

C

Yes, it has been mucked around so much, you don't have the front door.

C

To the cape you know, like the facade is not exposed anymore. I mean it's just.

C

um But I'm still kind of uncomfortable with introducing a style. That's just so wholly.

C

Different um and I think, um like you said there, there aren't any dutch colonials in the area.

C

There are plenty elsewhere, but there aren't any there I mean. Did you? Did you even consider just.

C

Raising it up to a taller, gable, gabled building if you're gonna take off all the other cable.

O

Buildings are there that are like three stories and and have rentals in them. Is that what you're.

O

Comparing it to also um you're talking about like a um two-story coin, it's like basically.

C

Yeah simply taking the same roof line and and pull and just raising it up so that you get yourself.

O

I mean the point is yes, the point is to be consistent with the yeah, with the neighborhood.

C

The biggest thing is, I don't want to set the president fit to take any home and change.

B

But hers if we allow one person to do it, you know we have to allow every person to do it.

N

Well, now, every home in the historic district could change style. You know what I mean they could use.

N

This as an argument like well you let them, how could you not gonna? Let me I want a dutch colonial.

O

Well, around the block, there's a garage, that's being converted into an apartment. Mr adams asked.

O

For something more substantial, yeah put on top of that garage to make it look, some look something.

O

More substantial, which I could understand that uh you know or right but he's not recreating a.

N

Difference walked in and said it was a second story on top of that, that would be different.

O

Than the thing that was, that was sitting there right so okay, but anyways. We didn't approve that.

B

That's not what's going on and the renovation of the garage was approved. Okay, very good. Thank you.

B

Yeah, that's my thing is: you can still tell there was a garage with this. If we do this.

N

Dutch corner, you could not tell it was a cake. The thing I struggle with is is that.

O

When we purchased our property yeah, we didn't buy a hundred year, we didn't buy the house in.

O

100 year lease to the city of portsmouth. No, but he brought into historic district.

N

There's rules we actually own the property right. So no, you don't but.

N

But no, I understand zone zoning. The zoning board approved our our recommendation and.

B

Yeah, the historic district commission, it's different, I'm not trying to be.

B

We're trying to get this is a work set right and we're all trying to get to.

C

I'm a big believer in the old sorry. I love. I love the old things. I love the old things around town. I.

A

I part of what I love about the old things is is how they change over time. Everything that's been.

A

Built it doesn't look exactly the way that it was when it was built, except for a few um and they're.

A

Museums and no one lives there. So that's not the greatest thing. I look at this cape and honestly, I.

A

Didn't see it as a cape, I I guess to me: it was, I just felt it was too beat up and- and it was kind.

A

Of much more of a relic that doesn't fit into the current owners expectancies, the chimney was.

A

Missing the door was missing, there was I I really I'm not sure, as we stand here tonight, where the.

A

Front door really was uh I assumed that there was a center chimney in it and puzzled. The some of.

A

The floors some of the raptors are six inch that doesn't make any sense to me. I heard you make some.

A

Comment about the roof fabric not being being tympanic, but the roof was not to be trusted for.

A

Some reason so I I guess I to me it wasn't so much a cape as it was a poorly developed fishing shack.

A

Is is what I was looking at and I felt that the applicant was pretended was. Was the pretense was.

A

To do something responsible and to make it look architecturally like a thing- and I am I'm sure.

A

That as everyone else, pretty comfortable with the dutch colonial cottage- and I thought this was a.

A

Reasonable approach and honestly I I still do uh I've now been slapped around some by the cape.

A

People and and and uh I'm not stinging from it, I deserve it. I guess, but I still don't know where.

A

That gets us as far as that ball going down this road yeah. I I think um if I can just just jump.

AM

In real quick, I think um in all honesty, I think one of the things that we're seeing is a house in.

AM

Disrepair in the historic district because the previous owner was so fed up that he sold it.

AM

Rolled a roof out and he called it a day and it's a failed system and you know we don't want us, you.

AM

Know what if, if they decide to in turn, sell and it goes into disrepair, you know I mean I think.

AM

We're all sitting here, I think we can probably come up with something what we were trying to do.

AM

Was actually keep it as low as possible? There's my concern reagan was if we do a full colonial.

AM

We have two full floors plus an attic. We would be at 30 something feet and so we're trying.

AM

We're trying we're only raising the ridge, seven feet, which you know to me. I thought that was a.

AM

Reasonable blast now the board could think differently. You can't see the cape in there.

B

I I don't know when I went in this place- seven eight nine ten years ago and in that door.

B

On the left, immediate left hand, side was the old front door and it had side lengths on both.

V

Sides everything's still there it's an inside door, it's here in your package, so it's a recessed entry.

AM

It's right here, but you can't see from also yeah next, it's like a it's like a no. I can't even.

AM

That's their front door, but you can't see it. What do you mean you can't see because it's.

AL

In it's in the month, because somebody built that thing on a piece of cement yeah, so the.

B

Reality is that that thing on the front, it was the big the big mistake that was was made to.

B

That poor, cape, I think, was you know putting an addition on the front. Okay, if it's just.

B

Anyways it's a mess as far as that goes, but um I'm going to be a you know, sticking with the cape.

B

um I cannot see a dutch colonial, I really can't and I'm dutch.

B

I don't see it um if you, I just can't see it. Do you follow.

B

I I and I don't and I don't I'm looking at the the the job here and I'm looking at this and.

B

I'm thinking that this looks like something that was done with care uh now you're. You know saying.

AL

That this place is she blocked it's actually it's actually. The second floor is it's like attic, yeah.

F

It's just because it's very similar to it it's because being presented in a picture pretty, but.

AL

I'm sleeping and when I like on this side, if I wake up, I hit my head and that's how low it is.

AL

And you know, I think we we said that last time that we are family of five. I had a little house.

B

On marcy street- and it was a cape, it was a three-quarter cape and um somebody turned.

B

The attic of that house um into some bedrooms- and they this looks like a basketball stadium.

B

Compared I mean it was, it was like it was yeah. It was right here yeah. They actually did that.

AL

Because, because this is the this, is the picture was taken yeah by the uh when, when they saw the.

AL

House, but I used these pictures because I want you to look at the bed. Oh and you cannot get out.

AM

Of that bed, I'm not either side of that. There's no bed wall, I mean. Is it yeah? This is the only.

AL

Bedroom that we have, we don't have any business, it doesn't work, it doesn't work for modern living. I.

B

Know it doesn't work and it I I I'm I'm I'm from japan. So I'm all about history and historical.

AL

Buildings, so I I do truly understand that you know what this you know. Committee is, you know.

AL

Presenting and- and I don't know if I mean I understand, but you know so, I would like to.

AL

Do whatever it's necessary, but you know we do need to have a second floor. We do need to have.

AL

Extra bedrooms, this house only has one bathroom right now and you know that's it and we have you.

AL

Know five people, then we we need more bathrooms and more bedrooms and then the second floor is.

AL

What we can build so, if there's like, like you know, I think if we can work on it to or agree on.

AL

Some kind of style that it could accommodate and I think that's what we like to do. Let me understand.

B

Yeah anybody else can speak. I sympathize it's tough. um How? How long have you on the house.

D

Just this october yeah: well, we have three children when they come up we're tight on space, maybe.

O

We have one bathroom and the previous owner did a really good job, because he's in the business he's.

O

A professional in the contracting business, so he re-sheet, rocked everything, but you can see where.

O

The finishing nails, weren't, even spackled and painted and on that ceiling, so he dressed it up.

O

um I've actually crawled into the crawl space. There's no insulation on the roof. There's no.

O

Blown insulation in the crawl spaces, so the mini splits fail like when we had.

O

That deep, freeze, there's basically a piece of plywood and a rolled roof above uh above the.

O

um um He left some of the structure of the old roof, which is like kind of like a ship's laugh, but.

O

um How old roofs were filled, but you had you kind of had your rafters coming down like that and you.

O

Had minimalist uh horizontals and then on top of that he put a little bit of filled in the gaps.

O

And then he put new sheep new plywood on it and they rolled the roof yeah. So.

F

There's no insulation, so it's like sleeping in a barn up there. It needs to be insulated.

D

um Let me let me continue. Oh I'm sorry, um so.

D

I don't maybe this is not the house for you, I mean if, if there's five of you.

D

You just bought it. I mean I hate to say that I'm a prop I'm big property right, scott.

D

Conservative but you know there are a certain point where you're going to be cutting out real.

D

Historic structure to accommodate your occupants that I see all that is timber.

D

Frame, that's part of the heritage in the history of that case, and you know just to.

D

Just to lift it up a little bit and all that I I'm having I'm struggling with that.

D

um You know, maybe the answer lies in your outbuildings. Maybe these these out buildings.

D

Get taller and the cape stays it's going to be tough, but you know um you know, I'm struggling with.

D

This we, we can't provide you with solutions. You know you know this. You know I can't support this.

B

It's only five of us here right now, yeah and as it works not here. The other thing that you probably.

B

Realize is when you make uh an improvement to a house, that's over 50 of its valuation. Then you.

B

Have to bring the whole structure up the code, and so that means like you're, downstairs, walls which.

B

Might only be this thick and only three inches of fiberglass in them all have to be either foamed or.

B

Etc, you know one thing leads to another and before you know it you've got, um you know the entire.

B

Smokes of the the whole electric is done over. You can't have cast iron pipes anymore. You don't have.

O

Any of that for your weights, it's all plastic, so the previous owner, there's about a there's so much.

O

Steel in the basement, we can actually build two houses on top of it. That's how we built it is.

O

Well, at the foundation a brand new cement- I don't know we found those things in there- was that that.

O

Steel in the in that the entire the basement's got like steel running this way, still running that way,.

O

And then he cobbled together a lot of the uh the timber. The timber was like.

O

Hacked into places, so if you go into the into one of the rooms on the first floor, you're wondering.

O

Why why are the timbers going this way in that way? So did you have a house, inspection and all.

B

That stuff I mean, did you before you purchased it or did you no, we didn't. We didn't do an inspection.

AM

um With this I'm, I do realize that you're not here to design, but I do need some sort.

F

Of direction, I don't know where to begin um so if we, if we post the cut, so if we keep the.

O

Cottage, the whole purpose for this is to not go and impede on our neighbors, which I think.

O

Is that mike over there mike's over there right? So what we're trying to do is furthest away from.

O

Mike's property, so it doesn't impede on his view at all right. We could. We could go up.

O

Higher over the family room and build out that way, potentially this was to try to minimize all from.

O

All our neighbors go to a spot where we could. We could add this extra capacity to the house.

O

So because that's where we actually have more air between done it and their property.

AM

This is furthest away from mike's property. If we go closer to them, we're actually four feet: lower.

AM

I'm guessing I'm estimating but height wise, we're the lowest. That property is the lowest of any of.

AM

Those about ours by it's just high for me, so it's about four minutes many many feet so I mean about.

B

The december 23rd, where does where does the water? Where did the water come to uh water? Was I don't.

O

Know 10 feet from our: uh oh, it wasn't on your lawn man. No, it's not our lawns. Our neighbors james.

F

Golden had more significant water he's the red house, that's in front of us that water was up part.

O

Of the problem is that you don't offer an existing second floor plan. So that's why I can't even get.

D

Everything's mostly proposed the existing it's a little posted since just right here, it's small.

D

Oh, it's it's! Okay! So the existing second floor. Maybe the next page. I know.

AM

On sheet a6, they too.

D

I had to have hit a6, I can't say 813. we might be missing a [ __ ]. Did you guys cheat? Did you get it.

D

What sheet is it a6? No, we go from a3 to a8 for some reason. For some reason, oh.

AM

Well, I have it sorry, that's good! Let me show you what the existing second floor looks like that.

AM

Yeah, this is not good. I take it this time.

D

All right, no that's the second floor: yeah yeah! Okay, you walk up the stairs right left.

D

Well, like I said possibly some of your your build outs and your additions and things might.

D

Be the places where you you gain space gain headlight. I don't think mike would like that.

AG

Okay, once you once you give your public input, yeah.

E

You want, you can either go there or in that chair. Whatever works for you.

E

I'm ready to go here: okay, okay! I I've absolutely wrote things down.

AG

I wrote because um okay, because that's the most articulate way I can deliver it.

AG

um I watched this proposal develop from the beginning before the first work session. I had do.

AG

Two conversations at the planning department and came away with the impression that the proposal.

AG

Would likely fail with the hdc favoring the preservation of a cape from the 1700s? I also had.

AG

The experience of watching a similar plan fail in 2016.. We were calling it 17, but whatever the year.

AG

Is presented by michael branzel and helen long at that time, the hdc permitted an expanded kitchen.

AG

A second dormer, a shed dormer facing dennett street and the removal of the current mud room.

AG

I didn't see eye to eye with on everything with michael branzel, but we were in agreement about.

AG

What the hdc was in place to protect, I never once voiced objection to that plan. Like I'm doing now,.

AG

I have some questions: is there durability and decisions made by the hdc.

AG

And I I say that not in a rhetorical way, but.

AG

Our decisions durable we're not things, can change after 10 or 15 years. Also, wasn't the supreme court.

AG

All right, well that I will continue, but I I I didn't intend that to be rhetorical. It's it's a.

AG

Curiosity that I have- and I have not heard anyone- articulate that in a way that I understand.

AG

Decisions is there durability in decisions made by the hdc without it, neighbors are put.

AG

In battle over things, that could and should be overseen like they were in 2016., did the.

AG

Current htc members go back and view the last meeting in 2016 on this very topic of the cape.

AG

No, no, no uh did hdc members view the recent board of adjustment reading on this proposal. No, it's not.

N

Typical yeah, we let them do their job. Let me do ours, different jurisdiction. Okay, that's the answer.

AG

Did anyone offer to take a look from my van my properties, vantage point to address the impact.

AG

And possibly devaluating of my property. Well, we'll ask you that well, did any of us ask no okay.

AG

Because when I look out my kitchen window and imagine a roofline seven and a half.

AG

Feet higher, I can't see the sky when I stand in my kitchen, unless I press my face against.

AG

The window, how close to the property are you wow the structure? Well, the house.

AG

Is set back from my window, but then there's the shed that I also need to talk about.

AG

So tonight you're able to hear about um a three foot height increase to the shed that wasn't.

AG

Present in the work set the first work session draft before even thinking about that, I have.

AG

Another question: why is touching the shed even a possibility at this juncture, the dimensions.

AG

The 12 foot height and the usage for storage are in writing tied to a legally deeded document. I.

AG

Included a letter to david witham from 2016 in the packet. It is the letter submitted with the deeded.

AG

View easement the city brokered that agreement and should have stepped into to defend that legal.

AG

Promise, in my opinion, I you have a deeded view: easement yeah, yes, the shed's, not in it it's about.

O

Five to seven feet forward of the ship: did you purchase that easily? Yes, yes from the previous.

B

Owner yeah, michael michael branzel, more relevant question is yes, the easement helps is the easement.

E

Does it include the existing out building yes or no, and if the answer is no, then it's not related.

E

To the view, easement is that structure in the view easement, but but when the I'm, just yes or no, no.

I

Is the accessory structure is not in the view easement, but the the the the the the the shed.

AG

Is is five feet from my property line, which is within the 20-foot setback of the front of.

AG

The 39 dearborn house and I agreed to let that shed be placed there in exchange for the view.

AG

Easement because I didn't want to be impacted by michael brenzell's stuff and he had a lot.

AG

Of stuff he had a boat, he had a a van that was half the height of a of a school bus and and and.

AG

um You know he was working on the house all the time, and I was that was that was the deal we.

AG

Struck- and so I guess maybe that's a clarification point right now- is the letter that accompanied the.

AG

View easement about the size, the height the use of the shed. Is that part of the the view.

AG

Easement deed, probably not, but that's something you'll need an attorney to determine yeah. That's.

A

The way it works okay, well, we have a lot plan that shows in, in definition, the view easement.

A

As is it a certain width and well, it varies, but none of that is impacted by the drawings yeah.

AG

No, I'm not claiming that it isn't it. Why are we listening to it? I'm sorry, sir, but I don't.

AG

Understand what's the point, the point is: is that when we made that that we made a trade of a shed.

AG

For a view easement, but there were stipulations about the shed being a certain size and how it was.

AG

Going to be used, I didn't want to agree to a shed five feet. My from my property line, it was going to.

AG

Have table saws going in it and fluorescent lights on in my property? So there was was a.

AG

Letter that specifically said it's a storage shed, it's not like a oh, so sure it's not, it does have.

A

A machine shop or machines in it right, my god, it would just hazard to guess, and then I think.

E

We got to move on because it's a legal question you're raising and none of us are lawyers but I'll.

E

Hazard to guess that, because the view easement does not directly speak to any structures on the.

E

Abutting property and the only causality between them is the event of the application in front of.

E

The boa to establish that shed does not restrict any property owner in the next 2000 years. From.

E

Going back to the boa and adjusting any other structures on that lot: okay and seeking relief.

E

With public notice and a hearing, things are not permanent. When you go to the boa, you can.

E

Come back and adjust them if they grant it well, I had someone tell me today and I don't.

AG

Know if they're right, that that adding height to the shed was a violation of the of the uh yeah. So.

E

I hope they're a lawyer and if they're a lawyer then that's maybe I was still wrong. But I just.

AG

um It was something didn't get discussed at the board of adjustment, so yeah I'd address that as.

E

Soon, as you can with these folks, that obviously are impacted by whatever that decision is.

AM

Can I say something yeah just so everybody's still. The only reason why we I raised that was because.

AM

It seemed like when we were meeting last week. This board would rather see the family room attached to.

AM

The shed and then doing that study we can't we're there's a common wall, but you cannot access the.

AM

Two spaces because we have a height change and it would ruin each room with staircases. So sorry,.

AM

To interrupt well, I guess it makes me just want to repeat that in 2016, a shed dormer that, because the.

AG

Board unanimously and I've got, I mean I could read you the quotes of different people who were on the.

AG

Board then I mean john wyckoff. What are we looking at here? This is a traditional cave. There lies the.

AG

Problem joe almeda chair, we have a very early cape. We can still see it need to be sympathetic to the.

AG

Historic cape I'd like to see an historic cape rather than a complete change in style, william.

AG

Godhill vice chair: if we approve this design, I no longer see a cape I'd like to see the integrity.

AG

Of the original cave preserved, you can see it from the north mill pond, so you can see it from.

AG

A public way you know regan rooted, let's try and highlight but yeah. So we got your letter and and.

B

um You know what I was talking about is. I would like to see the cape now, there's always a.

B

Difference in the board and one of the big things, that's a difference in the board is dormers. Okay,.

B

So myself, I've always been a little more liberal to seeing dormers put on capes and stuff on the.

B

Back of the cape, and maybe a couple dog houses, what we call with a gable roof on the front or.

B

Something I mean it's traditional, you, you see them. If you drive through newcastle you'll see that.

B

That's what capes have on them, because over 200 years, people like this family here have decided.

B

They need more room upstairs more headroom and that's what they do and that's what I can see.

B

Happening to a cape- and I was good with that too yeah and um so that's you know, you know we came to.

B

Some sort of agreement with mike- I really don't remember what it was, but you know at the point.

B

He was upset, but then later on, I would see him occasionally walking his giant dog around and he.

B

Was you know, I think it was really a good decision. He told me, that's what he told me you know so. I've.

AG

Heard that too, I think we're beating uh quite a few dead dogs right now we're not getting.

B

Anywhere but think that you might understand what we're talking about as far as the gambler.

B

It's up to you to get some more space. um I I guess the one thing I could say is that.

AG

The house is talked about is, if it's falling down, it's not michael branzel renovated that.

AG

Thing with an inch of his life, it was going to be a project in three phases and he didn't do.

AG

All the phases, and so the reason that the rope the roof looks skimpy is because he didn't get.

AG

To that phase, but there's a very renovated um front door in that mud, room that was going to.

AG

Be exposed when the mud room came off, but he didn't take the mud room off because he wasn't.

AG

Prepared to do the siding, and so it's not a house falling down at all. It's a it's a halfway very.

AG

Fancy historic cape, it's from the 17th, it's very sad to see those photographs that were in here.

B

Which was pre michael owning the house, you know the the photographs with the.

B

um The building paper on that mud, room and the deck that is dangerous to walk on. uh um I thought.

B

That those were rather sad photos, I don't know why they were included, but right yeah. So what's.

E

The message back to these folks, where are we going yeah? Are you good mike for now yeah, okay,.

AG

Different things that I was not clear about, and that gave me clarity and team cape.

B

You have to use the microphone and introduce you introduce yourself, I'm ross grant. I live at 21.

AN

Walker street, which is not in a butter, but it's the same neighborhood christian shores, which is.

AN

Supposed to be a historic neighborhood, um I have a long history with that house, because.

AN

My husband lived there with two roommates at one point many years ago and um I just feel like the.

AN

Changes that they want to make totally changes the character and the identity of that house and.

AN

I think that's a shame I feel like once again it's people chipping away at portsmouth's history, and I.

AN

Hope that you'll think about that, and that's all I have to say all right. Thank you. Thanks for waiting.

B

um You know I hate to round it up and say that there is a majority that is feeling that.

B

um Shouldn't be a dutch colonial.

B

Reagan's recommendation to make it more look like the neighborhood. We can easily do that.

O

There's there's a way to go in there and and is there and and standard bolster the.

O

Walls up with lvls to support a second floor foundation, the foundation's there.

O

Underneath it that's what mike built built it out pretty robustly, I think the reason.

AL

Why we picked the uh the dutch colonial? Is that so that the ceiling the heights.

AL

It doesn't have to be yeah, it didn't have to be without you. I think that's.

AL

I guess I would, I guess one thing to play with would be just like what is the least.

C

Amount that you could raise the roof as it is now I mean there are what we call high.

C

Posted capes right that are sort of a late style of cape that has which, like better.

AM

So it's still a story and a half, it's a story and a half. Well that that's going to be really.

E

Important to get clarity here so right, you're not coming back with a two and a half story structure.

AM

Exactly that's what I'm trying to not bring that so is it still a cape to kate camp kate? If it's a.

A

Knee wall cape, where do we see that? Where is it? I don't even know anymore. You need an address. I.

AM

Always call them a short cloning all the time. Okay, where is it nine walker, street and kittery? Oh, oh,.

F

Yeah, that's a lot of those and it's 1860, so I mean basically, could you take this form of what you've.

C

Done and just take away the gambrel pieces, I I don't know what that would look like I mean it's.

C

Something to play with to see like what would it still yeah reflect yeah again, the cape form.

C

Still be tall enough to get where you need and you're, probably if you're doing that and I'm and.

E

I'm not hallucinating on what that thing looks like uh you're. Gonna need a full shed dormer.

E

On the back, if it's a story and a half, and probably some dog house dormers on the front.

E

Yeah, like john said, I I think if you put two.

E

Flat roofed house: that's what it's going to end up. Looking like, I wouldn't say you know two shed door.

B

I I agree with you: okay, all right.

AL

Not both sides, we need it dog house, dormers on one side and full shed the other on the.

AM

Front you'd rather have a gable gable, gable, dormers on the front, yeah, definitely and the.

B

One: that's there is way too small. I mean that could be removed. Isn't there one there now.

AM

Triangle can I just like: what's there now amy, I just want to throw this.

E

Out for these guys to beat it down or say, they'd consider it. Thank you. Nick.

E

Because I got one uh my own house um so have those on the both sides: yeah. No, that's not gonna.

E

But this thing isn't going to work on both sides. I don't I might I I don't think there's no. It's.

AM

Ugly, two sheds don't work. It's like a triple decker in boston. If you get to three levels,.

B

What about the idea, but isn't that just a window doing what I have right, which is a.

O

Recess shed dormer, so we have one of them that gets you more headrooms. The dog house.

E

Dormers are window monitors, it's all. They end up being right, yeah and they're they're elegant, but.

E

They're not particularly useful in my opinion on the inside. Well, they don't, they don't produce a.

E

Great deal of headrest, correct, they're, elegant and you know, I'm not against them, but I I think.

E

Think doing a recessed shed dormer, that's three feet up from the bottom three feet or a foot down.

E

From the top and three or four feet in from the side is a good compromise and a good look.

E

Not because I have one but I started with three dog house dormers and then.

E

Put them together, like that, you could also do three dog house dormers with a.

E

Recessed connector, so that's a maritime dormer all right yeah so like that.

E

That gets you essentially a [ __ ] yeah, that recess proportion can be as little.

E

As six eight inches to give you the the sure, all right so there's a few options.

E

No well that the ridge is going up with yours, whatever.

F

Thing yeah the thing I can't see, but you live in or something I work in it yeah.

P

It has um the new walls are about four feet: high four feet, that's about what they are in.

B

My house right so it makes it upstairs yes yeah, so like nine walker, but yeah.

O

But then what you do under the the you know the eaves there is, then you build out closets.

B

You have a line of closets yeah, all of a sudden you're at six foot, five, one of those yeah we're.

AM

Fine, there yeah we saw one of these tonight. This is not the dog house dorm resolution. This is the.

A

Shed dorm room carpenter gothic. I have five windows in mind. That's only 22.. It's higher.

E

This is the case. Hang on I'll show you with a knee wall, because you can see the edge of.

G

The room right it keeps the ridge down right there. They give you a lot more give you yes,.

AM

I would call them probably the recessed shed dormer, I don't know, that's probably 50 best.

A

Connector on dog house, let me see all right, so you can still have three of them go across.

E

The front of the building, but there's a connector, that's recessed between them.

E

That's a wall yeah.

AL

Yeah, so as long as we can get the head high the shape of it yeah, um no, I mean if they.

AL

Keep it you know is, is okay, is it in here? It only says that you can't put like boats.

O

New brunswick canada yeah. We saw that it was all in the text. Yeah.

A

F

All right we've got: we've got to have a little order here, because, if you're watching at home.

B

In this really getting uh because I moved to continue, will you continue this second.

B

All those in favor, okay and then the motion so moved. Second.

B

All those in favor all right so we're adjourning so because.