City of Portsmouth, New Hampshire Land Use Committee, 3 Feb 2023

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2.3.2023 Land Use Committee

A

Everyone and welcome to our land use committee meeting. It is friday february 3rd and I hope.

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Everyone stayed warm on their drive-in this morning because it's definitely a cold one.

A

um To start off, we have our new community housing navigator, which is howard snyder here to join us.

B

And I was going to give him a moment to actually introduce himself to the group.

C

Well, good morning to the group, I've met some of you briefly and seen you in the hall.

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I started on monday, so I'm still getting to know the faces and the names and the roles.

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And the positions, so I appreciate being here, uh I I bring with me.

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A few decades of experience practicing as a landscape architect and a community planner. I.

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Was in the role of community planner in georgetown massachusetts for a number of years, where.

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That experience bringing to this is is more focused with my role of the affordable.

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Housing trust and our efforts to create more affordable housing in that smaller community.

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um So my professional practice has really been focused on creating uh spaces and places for.

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Communities and in their citizens, so I'm taking this role on it with enthusiasm for that. So thank.

C

You thank you, we're very excited to have you here very I'm very excited. I wrote about the restaurant.

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I'll speak for myself. um We also because sarah lachance could not continue with us, have.

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um I've already forgotten how to pronounce his last name bob. I have to go. I'm like.

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I know it's something I'm like trying to spell it in my head, so I can pronounce it.

D

Does it translate um so he's from the edc and he's going to be joining us moving forward? I have had.

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A meeting with him and caught him up to speed on what we've done so far so hopefully we'll be.

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Able to jump right in, as everyone knows, the adus that we had spent months working on are at review.

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Phase at the planning board right now, so we I want this group to be able to jump in and start.

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um Phase three so phase three is our incentives and step. One of our incentive plan is going to be.

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To do community engagement to get feedback on the existing code and how we can change.

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It to create more workforce and affordable housing, because that's really my goal as a.

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City councilor has been to try to create more affordable housing and workforce housing, which.

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Are all basically one in the same, but I'm going to use both terms. So we know people.

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Know I'm encompassing everything [laughter] um so and with that said, uh I wanted this to just.

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Be an open brain. I mean we've reached out to the community during our adus, which we formed.

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um All of those work groups we reached out to engineers, architects,.

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um Existing applicants of adus and a neighborhood representatives and those are the groups we had.

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And we had talked about doing those same groups, but maybe adding a group of developers to it.

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um So, let's discuss you know I'd like a sort of open forum of what we think, whether or not that's.

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Enough, if there's other people, we should encompass into that and then I'd also like to talk about.

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um The kinds of questions and formatting to how we this might work so who would like to jump in first I'd, be happy to start so.

C

um To understand a little bit about how this is going to be accomplished in the next number of.

C

Months uh I did a little bit of research and I found the community engagement report that.

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Was done um in july of 2022 so um looked into those uh efforts and I'm just considering that.

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To be a basis of where to start, and then with the other research, I've been doing this week to.

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Understand how that's been done for other initiatives that the town has undertaken.

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So um as as that zoning code proceeds, that's really going to be what's going to be the.

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Foundational element to establishing the handbook, and, as that starts tracking as well, it's obviously.

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Going to be reaching out from the navigator position all these other departments and and.

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Entities within the city and understand what they may have started speaking about so with.

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That collective thought moving forward. There's lots of different ways to be able to engage the.

C

Community, it's certainly important not only for the residents, but also those that are seeking.

C

To do work here, the developers and the businesses and so forth. So do you have any insight as to what.

A

Direction we should go for and when I'm talking incentives, I'm talking about so, for example, on the.

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North end- and this could be anywhere in the city that we are dealing with incentives. But on the.

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North end, specifically, when we originally created the character district, there we gave an option of.

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You get something you get to go taller for another story. If you give us community space or workforce.

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Housing, no one's given us workforce housing everyone's given us community space and I'd, say.

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80 of that community space isn't what, in my mind, is good community space? It's not the community.

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Space we had envisioned when we created the zoning. It's like hot orders. Yeah, I mean a wider sidewalk.

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In my mind, just because you let the public walk on your property and it's a sidewalk doesn't really.

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In my mind, isn't community space, I'm thinking true pocket, pocket parks and true? You know some green.

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Space was in our vision when we first wrote it, but that never happens. So that's one of the first.

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Areas I'm- and we also put in incentives for bigger development in the gateway districts for workhorse.

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Housing, we have gotten one one well, no technically two, but only one's built right, so they got. We got.

A

Two only ones built so that's I don't know that it's as effective either. So I think, looking at.

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Ex, at least starting in those two areas where the incentives have failed and not been super great.

A

um That we could look at, but who are the parties that we want to reach out to other than the ones.

A

That already been mentioned, are there any other interested stakeholders out there that we need to.

A

Talk to you I'd be interested to see what the public thinks about that and I think they'd.

B

Have to see examples, preferably photographic examples of what was built, but I share the.

B

Same concerns that you and I think corey has, um from the planning board perspective of.

B

It doesn't seem like a fair trade. You know not not what was intended. You know if you're going to get.

B

This much of a return or a bonus, perhaps the city should in the public, should get something better.

B

I think it's going to be critical to talk to developers who can get a candid conversation.

B

We talk to the engineers in the adu that I thought that was extremely helpful and that probably would.

B

Be a good idea again, but if we could actually talk to some principals in the development companies.

B

If they're they're, it's a it's, a tough nut to crack to figure out how to get more workforce.

B

Housing as we know it's it's it's a national problem and I'm plugged into a lot of national.

B

Groups so I've yet to see one. That's actually figured it out. So it's not easy, but through.

B

Bonus mechanisms that seems to be the way to get there. We just have to figure out how to do it.

A

Anyone else I agree, borrowing uh you know state mandate, which there is some sick.

A

Legislation, yeah yeah. I know it's been presented so there's a couple for that'll go yeah. There's.

E

um There's a there's actually a lot of housing bills. uh The legislative subcommittee has been.

E

Really following them and testifying, uh based on the principles that the council set this year,.

E

um There's also a couple other bills: hb44, which is the up zoning bill, which would allow.

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An rsa that would allow four units on uh where normally a single home lot would could be built.

E

um But yeah there's there's there's a decent amount coming forward.

E

um Including a municipal ability to mandate, um workforce or affordable units on new developments.

E

So we're following that pretty closely because as we know and and it's something that comes up in.

E

Conversation all the time you know: how can you approve this, this massive or massive to scale.

E

um You know apartments and there's there's no there's. No, you know no workforce housing and.

E

As we know, we can't mandate it based on our state loss. Well, there was some in.

D

uh I don't know route one right, so the west end yards gave us 27 units and the cinema. That's down.

A

In um what's that portion springs they're, giving us 20 for sale, but it hasn't. I mean they haven't.

A

Even demolished the building, yet so is it going to get built right? That's always my question.

A

Somewhat patient, you know because uh development takes time and um you haven't considered it yet.

D

um You know so I don't think you should throw that out, I'm not trying to throw it out, but.

A

How can we get more of it west end yards weren't, they required to have more and requested. We did.

D

18 months of work sessions with them negotiating back and forth on how much workforce housing they.

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Would provide to us and we left, that sort of an open door to be able to negotiate it because.

A

Of the price I mean they brought us all of their numbers and why they couldn't get financing. They.

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Started at 350 units we negotiated it down to 250 units and 10 workforce housing. That's about what.

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What it worked out to be, and at 80 of the area, median income- that was another compromise well.

A

And the for sale ones, the 20 that we're getting down in portsmouth green is actually going to be.

A

At 100 median in income, so it's not quite exactly what we want either as far as the level goes so.

B

You know the care and stick approach both are used in land use regulation, I'm a little bit.

B

Concerned about mandates, because in a super hot market you can put a mandate on and still have.

B

Things happen, but in less than super hot market it can just stop development if it.

B

Doesn't if it doesn't pencil out so that's why I'm leaning more towards the bonus provisions.

B

If we can figure that out, maybe in conjunction with some sort of a mandate but a pure mandate.

A

Even if we're allowed to do it right, it'd be nice. If we were allowed to do it.

A

um All right so I've heard developers especially principals in the companies. The engineers like.

A

We did before as far as reaching out to um and yeah we had reached out to architects. Do.

A

You think architects really have any sort of stake in the zoning. As far as incentives go.

C

And I think, speaking with architects, it would be more informative for them to understand.

C

From our perspective, how these units are designed could be designed and so forth, but we are speaking.

C

About development on a larger scale, we can also try to engage some architects that may be doing.

C

Residential single-family type of renovation in town to understand how.

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These units, and could be accomplished on the smaller scale, single family.

C

For my perspective, it would be helpful to engage them understanding of cost uh what they see of.

C

Current development costs for these single-family homes, as well as what they are foreseeing uh in.

C

The future- and that leads me into what we're speaking about in terms of engagement, is.

C

um Has there been any discussions or engagement with local banks to understand what their funding.

C

Mechanism would be for these single-family homeowners that want to create their units.

C

On their house to see what type of standard loans or other loans, where could they go um to be able.

C

To to fund these units, it's a really good point. I I should have been the one to bring that up since.

A

I deal with them on a daily basis, but I certainly know any bankers in this area that I could bring a.

A

Group of them together pretty easily. I don't know of anyone that has an adu program, yeah.

D

An adu program, no none that I'm aware of, but I can ask around thinking about that. Yeah I mean.

A

They just do construction loans right for them. If you're going to do construction at your house.

A

They consider it a construction loan, but maybe an adu program with a baby worth talking to them. I I.

B

Just thought of an architect developer question that could be a bit of a lightning rod, but.

B

When we're working on the building height issue, of course, one of the concerns that I've heard from.

B

The public and I've heard from developers as well is the flat top buildings. So if there was a way.

B

To have a pitched building that doesn't become a skyscraper is that space that could become.

B

Workforce housing for us, possibly or you know, is there a way to combine that to have a pitched roof.

B

On some of these newer buildings that could create more opportunity, maybe the penthouse moves up.

B

There and the work of course comes somewhere else in the building, but does the would this give them.

B

I know when smaller buildings that's inexpensive space, so I don't know if that could help.

B

With my it's questions to ask, I think yeah, quite possibly I I had this long conversation with tom.

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Ballen once he's doing the project on the corner, deer in maplewood- and he said it really boils down.

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To the cost of land and how high you'd really have to go in order to make it all, feasibly worked out.

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Cost wise, they said the cost of land is just so high. One story is not enough in order to make a.

A

Lot of it work, which is why we're not seeing it so yeah how high would you have to go to.

A

Make that feasible, I don't know, but I don't know if our incentives want to go up, multiple floors.

B

um It'd be good to know, so we could tell people, you know right if the answer is we'd have to go.

B

To an 80 foot tall building, well, that might not be. I don't know it's quite that tall, but you know.

B

What I mean it has to be taller than what we're allowing it needs to be more like a six or seven.

A

Story building in order to make you know that much workforce housing so especially in the tight sort.

A

Of downtown in downtown adjacent, as I now call all the areas just outside, so it's it's a complicated.

A

Financial, which is why we look towards the gateway districts and when we changed all of that zoning.

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Saying, okay, you want more, but the only thing we're offering is workforce housing. If you want a taller.

A

Building, I believe we took out community space in the gateway districts. If I remember correctly, it's.

F

In there it's in there, but it's not I mean the um there there there's three density incentive.

F

Bonuses, and if you just do one, you have to do work for health course, housing. If you do.

F

Multiple, you have to do: workforce, housing and community public realm improvements yeah. I know.

A

Knew we did it somewhat differently, so that workforce housing would be the first choice.

A

You got to do the first choice in order to get the second choice so um yeah. So looking good, I don't.

C

Like to add to that, um one of the intent of the handbook is to provide visualization of how these.

C

Units could be done and and unique to portsmouth and reflected in the the recent master plan is, is.

C

The character of each of these districts, and so the handbook will need to address.

C

um What these units could look like in the gateway in in a north end in the west end areas without.

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Being overly complicated, but it certainly needs to be expressed to developers and residents. This is.

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What it could look like, not what it necessarily needs to, or should do and and so forth. So as we.

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Start getting the the bylaw finalized, we're going to start understanding and.

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Exploring the different districts and what these could look like and with the.

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Engagement concerned residents can come out and and have a look at what we're formulating.

C

High pitch of the roof and other architectural characteristics, because we want the theme with the.

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Bylaws, certainly to have it to be a blending and of the character of the neighborhood that it's in.

A

Anyone else is the handbook going to extend to what we're talking about with these incentives.

A

Well, at the start, we just talked about a handbook for the 80 years, once the.

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Adus were finished beyond that. We haven't discussed going further than that, although.

B

If this change it might require change to the character district is a form-based code.

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Character-Based code, sections of the ordinance, so that would might result in some new graphics just.

A

In the code itself, because those districts are the farm based code, not all of our city is form-based.

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Code, so that's why it was hard trying to explain to someone why the adus probably don't have farm.

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Based good pictures in it because it covers not that part of the city, not that part of the city.

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It is, some of them are in that parts of the city, but there were very few that are in those parts.

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Of the city most of it's outside in the single family neighborhood, so that's by the handbook and.

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Adding visuals to the handbook for creating adus for the homeowner is fine. The incentives you've.

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Really got lawyers and architects and engineers reading through that telling developers what.

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They can and can't do so. Well, there's another group, the lawyers do we need to talk to them.

A

Us lawyers we're terrible, I know everyone hates a lawyer, I got it. I think I know a few of those too.

A

Any other groups and how much to the general public should we be reaching out. I mean we.

A

Reached out uh last time to a butters through a 200 unit or person survey plus we had a group.

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Of neighborhood representatives and actual applicants, so those were all consideration.

A

Of the general public, so for incentives, what kind of engagement and what groups of general.

A

Public outside professionals are we looking at, uh I would say, you'd be looking at the folks living.

G

In these these big, you know complexes. I mean west end yards, I don't know if they've even developed.

G

This I know that 27 is supposed to be. You know mixed throughout.

G

I don't know you know and they're slowly bringing each building online and I'm not sure where.

G

They're at in that process, other three apartment buildings are, I think, fully fully occupied. They.

G

Are okay? Okay, so now they're, just working on like uh okay, um so yeah, I think talking to I.

G

Mean they've only been living there for a handful of months, but those folks and then the folks down.

G

um The viridian, you know, although they don't have any workforce down there, it's you know.

G

Similar buildings, similar neighborhood, if you will um as to you, know what what they would see.

G

um And so yeah and then you also have um there's no workforce in there, but the the timber project.

G

um As well, temporary buildings yep the brewery buildings in the new building.

G

um So I think you know getting some. You know input from them. As far as you know,.

G

They obviously the people that live in those buildings obviously know people that cannot afford.

G

To live in those buildings and what you know, what what could help get those people into those well.

A

We're looking at mostly renters yeah right we're looking at mostly renters, so maybe that's the.

A

Population that we're going to get to as people that are trying to rent property in portsmouth.

A

um And what their challenges are, because a lot of workforce housing as craig knows, is mostly rental.

A

Properties right, it's not all um for sale. We are hopefully going to have some for sale, workforce.

A

Housing units, if it ever gets built, but right now I don't think we have a single one in this.

A

City that I'm aware of- and I think it's it's important to note too- that our population in.

E

Portsmouth is roughly 50 50., you know I mean I think. Sometimes um you know renters, don't always.

E

Get the same amount of due diligence and attention, but they make up 50 of our citizens roughly.

B

Greg would it make sense to contact your waitlist people.

A

um Don't forget to talk into the microphone, so everyone can hear the.

H

uh I mean what specifically, um what's specifically uh difficulties if they've faced, you know worlds.

B

Have they looked uh and just information? I don't know you maybe already know all this, so I.

H

Well, the the the residents at ruth lou and griffin place. um All of them have stories to tell.

H

um And you'd be so impressed with their with their stories and and what that housing means to them.

H

And they all have something. You know something unique, so there's some patterns in that so.

H

um So asking them for some testimony on that they they they do enjoy uh or do appreciate an.

H

Opportunity to speak up is my experience so far. How does that help this committee? Well, I think.

A

More we're looking for what is their experiences in trying to find housing in portsmouth and how.

A

That's been difficult, and how can we change our zoning to make that easier? That would be.

A

My goal in my head, but maybe there's others right. I would not offer up the idea that engaging that.

C

Population group would inform us better of the population group. We would need to outreach to.

C

To make more awareness of these units coming in so it's understanding their.

C

Stories in in how that population may exist outside of portsmouth who.

C

Do we need to then go speak to to say we're trying to create these units here.

H

You know I would really encourage as a thinking about that, to watch the community communities and.

H

Consequences um series the at least episode one is done, that's being done with the new hampshire.

H

Housing, finance authority and episode. One features two communities as they're, trying to help people.

H

Understand what workforce housing is uh and uh episode? One features two communities lancaster.

H

And portsmouth, and so they have interviewed, there's three ruth blue and griffin residents.

H

On there and you'll see how articulate um they are. That's great. It's really great yeah. What was.

B

That again craig, I can send you the list, so jay childs is starting to do a short series.

A

And this is like 10 15 minutes long tops. That's why you've seen him out recording at different.

A

um He was here the night that we had our work session, he's because he's working on different.

A

Series- and he wants to do shorter ones like he has the two big movies that he's done, that are.

A

Much longer, but he's now doing shorter series and um at the conference I went to out in manchester.

A

A while back was where they revealed this for the first time, and it's been viewed at the rocky and.

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Planning, commission- because I requested it because I thought our region really needs to see, and it's.

A

Basically, trying to dispel myths about who lives and workforce housing. That's the entire objective.

A

Of his episode, one he's working on two now I don't know what is, do you know what his working title.

A

Two is uh I don't I don't, but, uh but he did he. The filmmaker was at the sherburne school meeting.

H

The other night so got you know a lot of got a lot of footage of what this looks like you know,.

H

um What this looks like for sure, it's good about how to do this, yeah, yeah, yeah or how it happens.

H

When corey was speaking, what made me think of your your listener? Maybe your residence.

B

Is the the details of portsmouth itself, not necessarily what the county-wide statistics.

B

Are and what the you know trying to equate it into actual you know. Is there a threshold that.

B

uh Dollars per month that could get more people in that could then inform the architects and.

B

Developers, you know, that's the we're talking about trying to get different groups informed.

B

Maybe not being too much of an engineer here, but I'm trying to you know it's a formula here. If you.

E

Need a group of renters, uh I would say that 95 of my friends are renters in this in this area.

E

And myself up until last year was a renter for 13 years, so you know, I think it is really important.

E

That we, you know, there's especially a lot of times when we talk about you know, and we hear it all.

E

The time when people say well, how can a waitress afford fifteen hundred dollars a month? Well guess.

E

What they do do it they do it every every day in the city in and it's a struggle. It means that you.

E

Can't buy your first home, you can't you can't, you know, pay off your student loans a little faster.

E

You can't, you know, be an economic driver in our community, because so much of your income is going.

E

Towards uh your housing, so I do think you know to circle back around. It's very important that.

E

We get those people in here when we talk about, you know the need for workforce and affordable and and.

E

At baseline, too, just more housing we're. You know we're very focused on on this. You know demographic.

E

Of it, but overall we know there's a general housing shortage in in the state. I mean we're.

E

Less than I think, rentals, a healthy occupancy rate is five percent and we're at point five percent.

E

uh As a state, so I think you know, while we focus very heavy on on workforce housing and more.

E

Affordable housing, you know, there's obviously a lack of general units and I think that you.

H

Make a really good point and that's one thing: the findings of our needs assessment uh came out and.

H

And I want everybody to understand: is that it's the cost burdened people who live in portsmouth.

H

Now is who we really want to focus on. You know we're talking about new people or whatever, but.

H

The folks so many of the folks at ruth's place, they're they're, working uh in town and uh and so.

H

That's, that's, you know they they were, they were all paying. You know, 40 of their income and rent.

H

Fifty percent of the income rent- they can't cook, they can't afford school. They can't afford those.

H

Kind of things that help them build assets, um so I think you make a really good point um joanna about.

H

um The cost burden that people in portsmouth are feeling and we're, just not speaking about those.

C

That are living and working. We're also talking about the population that that lives here and.

C

Are retired and they're finding that that their cost of living has gone up on a fixed income and.

C

So that's certainly another population to to look into and I believe has been discussed about how to.

C

Outreach to those people they're going to uh not those people that segment of the population and.

C

Informing them and understanding how they could continue, and this is one issue we had.

C

uh In georgetown is a lot of citizens came in and say I want to be able to age in place and.

C

uh They want to be able to have the ability to afford where they're living, uh and so this.

C

Is an option too? So it's the spectrum. I think we all understand, there's a spectrum to it and.

H

Just for reference, we house a thousand people at the portsmouth housing authority. That's a lot of.

H

People for a city of our size- and you know, trust that there's a lot of extremely low income people.

H

Here in portsmouth- and these are folks that often you know don't feel like they live in portsmouth.

H

They feel like they live under portsmouth. This is a a largely invisible population and, as we.

H

Evidenced on tuesday and and often is that they're often demonized and discriminated against and not.

H

um And out of place here and that that should not happen, it should be the other.

H

Way around, I believe our fearless nick correct now would like to speak.

I

Well, hopefully you can hear me sorry, I can't be there this whole morning, but it's been a.

I

Challenging week here I had battling cole, but I think I'm out the other side. Can everybody hear me.

I

Okay, yes, for now, okay, um you know, I think I think you're all raising a really important question at.

I

Least, in my mind, that'll help them and perhaps even more the general public. I think it would be.

I

Really important- because I struggled with this for about four or five months in the fall well.

I

Craig was doing his study with rkg. I think it'd be really helpful for this group, if staff uh now that.

I

Howard's on board, working with peter and myself, put together a a better audit of what the local.

I

Housing trends are enforcement because I I do think there's a heavy focus here on workforce.

I

Housing- and I think the data is going to suggest, there's a good reason why we're doing that. uh You.

I

Know I think the data is going to suggest in terms of projects that have been approved or.

I

Been in construction under construction or just opening, we've had a real surge in sort of middle.

I

And upper middle income housing in the last five to seven years in portsmouth, the rates.

I

More than doubled in what we're, theoretically producing it's not all constructed some of.

I

It's under repeal, but there are hundreds and hundreds of units that are going to be coming.

I

Online and the lion's share of them do not have workforce housing. What that doesn't mean there.

I

Positive in breaking down the lack of even middle income housing in portsmouth, so I think the audit.

I

Would be really good for all of us me included to really understand what is going on with adus.

I

What's going on with micro carpets these small units, what's going on with multi-family whether.

I

There's medium or large whether they're mixed use, we've got a lot of housing. That's come into.

I

Portsmouth that is allowed as of right without a special exception, or a conditional use permit.

I

That obviously has no workforce housing component and we have no ability to ask for it or even.

I

Incentivize it without changing the code, so I think it's important. We do that audit and make.

I

That a high priority, so we all have a better sense of what we're talking about. And uh if I.

I

Haven't lost you, we still hear you, I think they equally the important step for this committee.

I

Is for staff, probably peter stiff to myself, to do a an overview of the current incentives.

I

What are they, how do they work and where did where geographically in the city do they apply.

I

And obviously, benchmark that against the trends data in the audit to really evaluate the efficacy.

I

Of the ordinance- and I think I think it's going to confirm what we're saying, but it's nicer to.

I

Have the data to back it up, I'm sure all of us don't have it quite right, including myself as.

I

To what's going on where and when at any given point in time, we are making a lot of progress.

I

In my opinion, at least on the housing front, we just aren't doing particularly well on the lower.

I

Income, workforce housing and of the spectrum- and I just lastly would say I think I think talking.

I

To people that live in the current workforce, housing units, whether they be in the portsmouth.

I

Housing authority, the west end yards or even folks that we know are on there's a house on.

I

Middle streets with, I think, seven or eight units, it's cooperative housing, it's clearly affordable.

I

uh It's got and I think we're going to find at the west end yards we've got even crowding.

I

Issues where people are younger, people are piling into units uh and living in sort of.

I

Group uh housing arrangements in order to be able to afford the rents, even if their workforce, uh so.

I

Most importantly, I think it'll demystify who these people pregnos, that more than anyone having uh the.

I

Development on court street, I think it's really important for us as a community to put faces.

I

Behind the the kinds of uh residents that will be residing most likely in these units, so people.

I

Understand there may be the kinds of tenants they'd like to have next door than the ones.

I

They're conjuring up in their mind uh that they would be less likely to want to live next to so.

I

um I'll end with that, but I think we would be able to recalibrate our our sort of goals and approach.

I

On our public improvement plan, if we were all solely grounded in what's going on in portsmouth,.

I

uh Right now, and and have a better sense of our our existing ordinance sounds great. Thank you. Nick.

G

One thing that you know nick nick brought up is and kind of joanna as well. Is that the.

G

um We haven't really talked too much about landlords of smaller unit. You know smaller, you.

G

Know, obviously, we've got uh talking about less than yards, you know and of course, with housing.

G

Authority, but you know the the mom-and-pop landlords that have one or two buildings was.

G

You know three units each and and we're seeing more and more from the plain board perspective.

G

Of those coming back and yeah they're, maybe they're getting renovated and usually for.

G

High-End, you know, because they, you know they either got bought out and they're getting.

G

Completely gutted and redone for for high-end rental, or you know or condo, or something like that,.

G

um So I think we do have to talk. You know they have a good. Those landlords will have a good pulse.

G

Of as far as what's going on- and you know, how are they making it work if, at all, without selling the.

G

The the the building um one thing that was brought up at the end of the last planning board meeting.

G

um Kind of just as a side note we were just just chatting after the meeting, but uh someone brought.

G

Up, uh apparently, landlords uh may get a questionnaire from the assessor's office.

G

Every year I don't know if there's any pertinent data that might be able to be mined out of those.

G

Questionnaires, um they're not required for them to complete they're the same uh they're.

A

Sent to all businesses, because I get one okay and we're not we're. I can tell you I've never.

A

Filled one out, I'm a horrible business owner, I'm just curious. If it was, you know, if there's you.

G

Know data that's kind of just sitting somewhere that we might be. We can find out if they get.

A

Them back but yeah, I'm pretty sure they're. No one they're not required to they just ask sure.

A

um For the information, okay, cool- and I'm really glad you mentioned mom and pop landlords, because.

H

um Especially with this as a as a public meeting, I shouldn't lose the opportunity to say that we need.

H

More landlords, who will accept vouchers and uh we're doing some more outreach incentives. We just.

H

Raised our payment standards, so we can people are have a little bit more money to afford portsmouth.

H

Portsmouth rents, it's still hard, but any any mom-and-pop landlords that are out there. So.

H

um We'd love to talk to them. Would there be a way to put something into our zoning to make.

A

That incentivize landlords to be able to do that I mean even if it's for a handful of years, maybe.

A

We could like what 79e does, which is, and I don't know if we can just do this on our own without.

A

Asking the state or if we have permission, but could we offer all right if you're you're going.

A

To make this small multi-family it's five units at six units, could you give us half of them at a.

A

Lower rate or at vouchers for five years and will keep your you know, tax rate or your tax assessment.

A

Or whatever ever the case may be at a lower price or a set price for those periods of time. You know.

A

Could we do something like that? Well, I, at the very least, we've checked this out before, but there's.

H

No state enabling legislation that would allow a local municipality um to as far as we are are when.

H

We looked into this before to [music] um enforce um uh landlords to enter into a section 8 contract.

H

um We think those of us in the housing business the affordable housing business. I think it.

H

Should be against the law to discriminate against people who come looking for an apartment and have.

H

A section 8 voucher, there's apartment complexes, winchester place actually in portsmouth. Does that.

H

Routinely, and uh so at the very least, you know to get more landlords do, but also to get the.

H

You know these existing landlords whose rents are already in that payment standard.

H

um That uh um I wish there was a way for the city to either have some some kind of uh incentive or.

H

Or otherwise, for multi-family property owners like that to accept vouchers, I believe there's.

E

A a bill- that's in committee right now- that would make it illegal to turn away vouchers.

E

There's a there's a bill right now, yeah. I think that uh your idea sort of a 79e type situation.

D

Is probably a good incentive? um And when you talk about the mom-and-pop landlords that maybe.

D

They own several buildings that are either units or six units or whatever, maybe there's a way to.

D

Allow them to expand much like a single family home can now build an adu, maybe.

D

You can add a couple units if their workforce, something like that. You know.

D

So whereas you know by zoning now or by right, they probably can't.

E

I think it's it's important too, to pop to talk about. When we talk about the mom and pops, they.

E

Tend to be, you know low much more under market than say if we look at chinberg or western yards.

E

I know the apartment that I lived in for six years was 1400 for a three bedroom and we've.

E

Passed it from friend to friend to friend and 10 years later, it's still fourteen hundred dollars.

E

And it's in a prime location, so I think it's we. I would love to incentivize and and figure out.

E

A way to recognize, too, um as on the city end, whether that's on the tax center or whatnot.

E

um You know those those people, because they play a vital role in in housing. A lot of our.

E

A lot of our renters and at an affordable rate. Well, we've talked a lot about the groups of.

A

People that we want to reach out to, and then I I don't know if media is the right word to.

A

Use but the medium, maybe of how are we going to try to do things, sort of in person or zoom.

A

um With what size groups are we going to try to do bigger forums like they do at charrette's? We.

A

Have a room full of people and a few people you know talking or doing you know, asking questions.

A

That way, are we going to do it by you know, paper, mail or electronic, some sort of reach out or.

A

Survey, I think it would be important it might be dependent upon what group it is as to what medium.

A

We use as well so I'd like us to also reach out and sort of think about what would be the best.

A

Ways to reach out to what type of groups, if that makes sense. Well my vision for, for what will be.

C

Occurring over the next couple months is, is uh there's uh a variation to to the notion and it's.

C

Quite often used interchangeably, but outreach and engagement are are different with the community.

C

um The the outreach should start first outreach being a little bit more of informational sessions.

C

um To inform the the public and and stakeholders and so forth, this is coming up.

C

And then you move into more of an engagement process where it's higher level. So after you do.

C

The outreach you're starting to come in with the engagement of those uh different visualizations of.

C

um What could occur and how they could occur and you start getting feedback.

C

At that point, do you find this favorable? Do you not find this favorable? So it's.

C

They're they're informed they get a chance to to think about it. They start the coming.

C

Back and with the phone calls the emails and so forth, they understand the resources where.

C

They can go on their own time and, in volition, to start understanding what the possibilities are.

C

And then, after they've come up with some thinking, we're engaging them we're finding out what their.

C

Insights the likes the dislikes and so forth, and then, after that, you get more into the little bit.

C

More of the workshop sessions there's going to be a lot of specific questions. I think the public.

C

Will have that they may try to introduce early on that, we'll listen to, but won't be able to answer.

C

But certainly come back with those answers at the later sessions and it's going out and speaking at.

C

In center areas of of these different districts uh and during that outreach, certainly having.

C

The opportunity, then, to present to them where they can go for what their resources could be.

C

For them to start coming back so once we have more information to present start the outreach.

C

Effort and then it can be targeting after these interviews with these different population groups,.

C

The the senior centers for for the the community center.

C

um There could be places on on the website that the the aspect of hard copying and mailings.

C

I I think, is starting to diminish much more there's electronic uh invoices going out for.

C

um The sewer bill, the water bill and things like that, but certainly having postings.

C

Around town and then following what was done within community engagement plan that I saw.

C

There's the pop-up tents that can happen being staffed by the city and so forth. So.

C

That that's just the higher level thinking that I have about how it's going to be accomplished.

A

I think the whole group I feel like that was a great kind of covered the whole monty we did. I.

B

Was telling peter the two peters yesterday um we did a project in williston last year and.

B

Got a lot of online engagement with there's some phone apps that make it easy to do that.

B

And we had a lot of buy-in the problem with any of these is sifting through. Who are you.

B

Getting comments from, is it people from nebraska or is it people from portsmouth.

B

um And people from nebraska who own property enforcement- that's one thing, but you know if it's.

B

Just somebody who happens to stumble on it online, that's something to think about yeah we've. I know.

A

John tapers looked into things like they did at the water session. I know there was a session on.

A

Water I came to, and it was just the people in the room were given a code so that everyone in.

A

The room could then rate different questions and you've got all the data. That way- and I know the.

A

Chambers used a similar and I'm not and the city house. When you went with fleet street and some of.

E

The other projects right so there's some of that. If you have a group in a room where you can have.

A

Them all on their phones and entering and giving you the percentage and whatnot of different things.

B

It's the inner room, part. uh That's you know, that's getting more difficult for folks for a number of.

B

Reasons- and you know especially reaching out to young different age groups, you know.

E

And I think it's I think it's important whatever we do, that we really mill down whatever. If we do.

E

An electronic survey we really mill it down. I think that sometimes we've seen that surveys.

E

Can be really broad and therefore we're not getting you know, really, we don't want a data.

B

Dump yeah and then we're mining through all of that um yeah. I'm thinking maybe doing something.

A

At the senior center for reaching out to the actual senior population, because if they're all.

A

Going there, you know, have some sort of event where we give them breakfast all the time or.

A

Lunch or something, and maybe it's having an event like that and adding to it a piece of.

A

Talking to them about what we information, we're looking for and feedback from them.

A

Yeah and just to clarify what information are we looking for we're looking for lots of information.

A

But we need to know what are the struggles and the barriers for the people. Looking for this kind of.

A

Housing, so that we can shape our zoning and our policy in that direction right so we're looking.

A

For a whole host probably need to narrow down, and we can use these meetings to start to narrow down.

A

Exactly what we're looking for and who we plan on reaching out to is what I'm hoping in the next.

A

Couple of meetings that we can do and to add on to that we're um wanting to reach out and understand.

C

uh The segment of the population that may be interested in providing this type of housing where.

C

um We're understanding the the those that are a cost burden with their housing, but we need.

C

To understand where the population is that's interested in I've got a house, I'm looking to.

C

Downsize, I don't want to sell, I want to say in the community and have them understand that this.

C

Mechanism, we're discussing for the adu would allow them to create another unit that they could occupy.

C

On a smaller scale and and allow them to to rent out so wanting to to reach out to those landowners.

C

That may not be aware of the program, inform them and that's where some of the banking may come into.

C

Play and in other aspects they can understand yeah, I'm interested in doing this. How could I.

C

Have it done so? There was a project recently that was proposing micro units downtown, which is a very.

B

It's like the perfect location. I see folks from the griffin place every day walking to work which.

B

Is a luxury you know, but this is a necessity if you are looking to save money and our the.

B

One I'm mentioning is now being proposed as office, because our zoning didn't allow what they wanted.

B

To do so, I'm going to take a closer look at that one that developer may come in to talk to us, we'll.

B

See pretty sure I can get them too yeah yeah, with the parking pretty sure I can get a few of them.

A

If I ask them to come talk to us, I got an idea he might show up, but we have several that might show.

A

Up, um I think that, folks, if I can offer the folks that um um that live in our housing, I I would just.

H

Think it's important to get input from everybody, um but it's also a lot of work to do that and I.

H

Think that the that what we're talking about is the the need is the the stories. um I don't think.

H

People will have enough technical expertise to weigh in on zoning issues and and how that goes.

H

But um so of course engage them, but I wouldn't make that a top priority. I would tell you that.

H

There's all kinds of people that are struggling and it's well established uh that that's the.

H

Case uh and getting their stories for advocacy purposes I think would be- would be fantastic, but.

H

um But I think we can you know and from my view anyway, from where I'm sitting, I think that that.

H

That question has been answered already yeah, I agree yeah. I think we just have to look at.

D

That zoning and doing something bold and at least coming up with some ideas that are.

A

You know right so our initial, what I've written down as far as the groups to really look at are.

A

Top of the list would be developers, engineers, architects, maybe bankers, uh lawyers and landlords.

A

I think that would be our first sort of group of people to really start to target.

A

As far as how we can reach out to them and engage them in getting information back on.

A

How our current zoning is working to get to our goal and what changes or what barriers.

A

Need to be taken down in order to actually get to our goal. Does that make sense, yeah.

B

Your senior center idea beth, we could have one of these meetings at a senior center. Okay,.

E

Trying to get on the road we we absolutely could, and maybe I don't know if there's you know open.

A

Space it uh or a um you know, place that would be outside of city hall. That might be more convenient.

A

To gather people for something I'm I'm game that we go in out into the community and talk to.

A

Landlords, maybe landlords would feel more comfortable meeting someplace else. You know.

A

Or a different time, you know if we have to meet at a different time, then maybe that's the case.

A

Too, but we can start to, there might be have to be some one-on-one like not calling that way. There.

A

Might be yeah well if nobody else says anything to put in. I know we have at least two members.

A

Of the public here there are none on zoom, so if anybody would like to come and give us their input.

A

Talk into a microphone all right.

J

So I've been a mom-and-pop landlord for over 40 years. Oh sorry, I figured everybody knows me well.

A

We know you but for the record elizabeth bradder property owner 159 mcdonough street, so I will tell.

J

You that um we no longer accept vouchers, we did for many many years. I still have a voucher person.

J

In my one of my dover homes she's a wonderful tenant, I would if I could have a thousand voucher.

J

Peoples, I would if they were all like her. um The there are real problems with vouchers in terms.

J

Of some people who get them are are great tenants and some come with problems and when the problems.

J

Occur, the housing authority has no ability to help me get them out. They will continue to pay the rent.

J

Which makes it difficult for me to evict them, and it costs me a lot of money to get them out, because.

J

They're a protected group so as a landlord, I am happy to take people with vouchers. If I had, if.

J

They were graded in in some way; in other words, they've lived in housing for 10 years, they've.

J

Been had no problems, I know that the portsmouth housing authority has some clients who they wish.

J

They could move somewhere else or have moved them out, but as a mom and pop it costs a fortune to get.

J

Somebody out it took me almost nine months to get somebody out who was flooding an apartment.

J

Literally flooding it, she had six six homeless people living there coming and going the people. I.

J

Had to have a police escort to go there, and then I have another person. Who is the nicest person.

J

It's a single mom. She takes good pair anytime, I go in there, it is spotless, it is meticulous. She pays.

J

Her rent on time, if the housing authority misses a rent check, she's almost in tears about it, because.

J

It got lost in the mail or whatever they also make me wait, 30 days if the check gets lost in.

J

The mail as a so I have no money for that rent. So I'm pretty much financing that. So there are a lot.

J

Of issues with the vouchers and vouchers, I think, should be changed to have what the different, what.

J

The difference is so if you're, a single mom and you have a full-time job, and you just need enough.

J

Money to make that difference in the rent, that's different than somebody who has been in and out of.

J

um Different facilities and has been a very negative, has a negative history. I don't want them.

J

In my my building- and I don't want them next to my other tenants who are paying full rent because.

J

They're going to be complaining to me every single solitary day, so that's my thing on vouchers.

J

I think um one of the things that you think should think about is what are the hurdles to building.

J

Affordable housing, I read up on affordable housing and it's a myriad of crazy laws. You almost need a.

J

Law degree to be able to understand what the rules are to put these in and what you can and can't do.

J

And this, and that the other thing I think you should look at, is um what are the barriers to.

J

Wanting to build them so that we know there's all those laws, but there's also the barriers that come.

J

With that- and we know from looking at seacrest village, which years ago those of you who've lived.

J

Here a long time know what secrets village is, but it was a completely low-income housing place.

J

um That was a mess because nobody really took care of it. Nobody cared about it or anything.

J

Like that- and there wasn't much support for the programs that were there so that was bought out.

J

By a developer and then to this day, if it's my understanding, you can correct me on that. There are.

J

Low income, housing or workforce housing in that in osprey landing. So that's my understanding. I could.

J

Be wrong about that, but that was part of the deal of them making the changeover. So you have a mix of.

J

People who are working and people who are working and receiving vouchers- and you probably can't.

J

Tell them apart when you go through the units, so that's. I think that system shows that it works.

J

So workforce housing makes sense as a landlord. I never fill out those assessment things because.

J

The last thing I want to do is pay more taxes. Okay, so I think a tax incentive to encourage.

J

Mom and pops to stay all of these new units are going in according to city councilor, who was a.

J

Big promoter of very very large unit, she said: oh, the more units that go in rents will go down, but.

J

That's not how it works if more units go in and they're bigger and more expensive, the whole cost.

J

Of living goes up, which we've proven as a mom and pop. We have some buildings that are paid for so.

J

We have some flexibility in our rent and we most of our most of our kids. I call them but they're.

J

In their late, their mid to late 20s and early 30s often go on to buy homes, because we keep our rents.

J

In a way that we hope that they can go on to buy something nowadays and needing a third down, it is.

J

Almost impossible, but a lot of times they are able to work their way up. So I think, generally speaking,.

J

There is no incentive for me to keep my rents down in order to buy a refrigerator. Now it used to cost.

J

Me three to four hundred dollars. Now it cost me 700 to a thousand dollars. um I've replaced heating.

J

Systems at ten thousand dollars air conditioning systems at ten thousand dollars so to keep the.

J

Rents, low the cost of what's out, there is almost impossible. My rents have all gone up, they will.

J

Go up by about five percent every two years and that's pretty low, considering what goes on in.

J

The area, but, generally speaking, it's not able to keep up with what it costs for me to repair things.

J

I'm doing a redo of one of our rental units that was a single family home and still is.

J

The rent will go on it tremendously higher than I had anticipated, because I thought this amount.

J

Of money, it's dub, it turned into double what I had anticipated. So I added an extra.

J

um Half for what I anticipated would be expenses and it's literally doubled. The cost has doubled.

J

For the repairs that I've done so just to give you an idea, I think your guest list is great.

J

I I definitely would reach out to other tenant groups. I know in dover there's a.

J

Tenant group, which I'm involved in and a lot of those people do take vouchers, so it might.

J

Be good to hear from them about their experience with people with vouchers, but I personally think.

J

You should not mandate vouchers, but you should make there should be more transparency and they.

J

They can be different kinds and there should also be some kind of assistance for landlords I mean I.

J

Shouldn't be the one who has to call the hospital I've call the police on my tenant to have them be.

J

um Put into a mental institution and health for for 72 hours, that should not be my job.

J

That should be the social worker's job because they don't see it. There's legal.

J

Aspects, they don't see what's going on so therefore they can't do it. So there's all.

J

These loopholes in the law and it puts all the burden on the landlord and those are the laws.

J

You should change, not forced landlords to take vouchers, but to protect landlords and most of.

J

The new hampshire laws do not protect landlords, they protect the tenants. Thank you. Thank you.

H

I respond to one of those comments and I appreciate everything: there's truth and everything.

H

That you say and appreciate, of course, we're all grateful that there's naturally occurring.

H

Affordable housing and community, where people who have been long-time landlords, the rent, is.

H

Naturally, lower because they've paid off stuff, but I I'm, but I just want to say just from my personal.

H

Experience, I I'm also a mom-of-pop landlord. I don't really see myself as a pop actually, but I've.

H

um And it's not affordable housing, the cost of what it what it took to do, that.

H

And I just want to make sure I go on record to say higher income people destroy stuff uh too.

H

um [Laughter] all right, yes, okay! Well as usual, liz is very hard to follow, but I will do my.

K

Best she uh she has it all good job liz. uh My name is liza hewitt. I live at 726 middle road.

K

um I guess what I hear missing and it's going to surprise nobody at this at this table. What.

K

I hear is missing, um are just everyday residents and um and their feelings on things. um I think if.

K

If we learn nothing from tuesday night um you're, not engaging residents and you're not engaging.

K

Them early enough, it's fine to talk to bankers and lawyers and developers. But where are the.

K

People that are living in the city, the 22, 000 people that are living in the city, you need to.

K

Engage them you need to talk to them. You need to get their information when we did the adu. I kind.

K

Of beg to be on a focus group, my focus group consisted of three people. We were the resident.

K

um We were the the resident, what did they call them? Neighborhood reps.

K

I'm not really a neighborhood rep. I live in a neighborhood, of course, um liz was on there. She.

K

Doesn't live in portsmouth, she owns places, but you know she was considered a neighborhood rep and a.

K

Woman that was very vocal about adus that were going on up in weibird. We were the neighborhood.

K

Reps that was it and then you contacted a butters to existing adus. But what about the people that.

K

Are just living out and about that that some of this is being sprung on after the fact you need to.

K

Start earlier, and you need to start earlier with with residents, if you want them to be accepting.

K

I mean people are reasonable. Those people that I witnessed when I went to that meeting.

K

Tuesday night were very reasonable. They had some legitimate concerns. They may not have been your.

K

Concerns but they were legitimate concerns and had you engaged them far earlier than you did.

K

You never would have had a tuesday night, and so you know what you're doing here is setting this.

K

Up for another tuesday night, and and I would ask you not to do that- I mean- engage your residence.

K

Early tell them what's going on, ask them what they're you know concerned about ask them what.

K

They're, afraid of um and and take that information and listen to it, because I think that what you're.

K

Missing is that homeowners are struggling too. I mean any of you in this room that are homeowners.

K

Are probably struggling, we're all struggling and so as a homeowner you sit and you think well, gosh.

K

Is what's this going to do to my property value? You know I rented. I went through all of that. I've.

K

Got kids now that are renting some of them more successfully than others, because some of them.

K

Can't afford to live here. Some of them are barely living here, one's living at home with me, because.

K

He can't live here on his own, um so everybody is struggling and I think that you need to realize.

K

That and acknowledge that I, like the point you made mr snyder, about kind of those levels of of.

K

Outreach and I think that that's what we're talking about- it's fine to engage developers.

K

But I'll tell you when I hear residents talk residents, don't trust developers they just don't.

K

um You know what you see are huge buildings, massive buildings being built all over town.

K

That are fetching 35, 500, 4, 000 rents and we're sitting here talking about how mom and pops can.

K

Take it on their backs and provide affordable housing. Well, where are you in asking these.

K

Developers to do that, I've sat in those meetings. I've listened to them say I'm sorry. We can't make.

K

The numbers work: well, I sit there and think I don't know you're getting a lot of rent, so you're.

K

Obviously you're making some numbers work and yet we're we're asking you know: residents like liz to.

K

Provide housing at reduced rents in order to help residents and liz is happy to do that and a lot.

K

Of of landlords in town are doing that, but they're struggling too. As liz said, they're struggling too.

K

And so I think you know engaging developers. Yes, you've got to do that. It's important.

K

But maybe they shouldn't be asked first, maybe they shouldn't be the ones that are being engaged first.

K

Maybe you should engage some other groups. First, um you know the incentives which I I thought, the.

K

Meeting was about it got a little bit, maybe away from that. I didn't hear a whole lot of talk early.

K

On about the incentives and basically the two choices for incentives as a resident, when I sit.

K

In planning you know in planning board meetings, I don't know, call me a geek, but I tend to watch them.

K

um I hear developer after developer talk about again how they can't make things work. We just.

K

Can't make it work, so um you know west end yards that was supposed to have 52 units.

K

Or 54 units has 27 and it's not at 60 percent, which it was supposed to be it's at 80 percent.

K

um You know at some point you've if you can zone and and develop incentives to the cows.

K

Come home but if you're not going to hold them to those, what good are they like? What's the point.

K

um You know, and I think that that's what residents are frustrated by they're.

K

Frustrated by, as you said, alleyways that are public space. Well, I've never taken you.

K

Know I would not choose to have a picnic in an alleyway, I mean what am I using that for.

K

um And yet the buildings are getting bigger and they're getting taller and they're impacting.

K

Residents so you've got to engage them, you've got to engage them and you've got to engage them.

K

Fast- and it can't just be, you know, we'll, send a couple surveys out to a couple of.

K

People that you know we on this committee know you've got to engage the entire community. You.

K

Have to be upfront with them about what you're thinking about you have to explain it to them.

K

And then you have to listen, even though it may be, not what you want to hear. Thank you. Thank you.

A

There's no one else in the room unless anyone else has any final comments. I will adjourn the meeting.

A

All good yeah, thank you. Everyone. Thank you just to keep in mind. I did move our march.

A

Meeting because I'm unfortunately going to be in hawaii on the first friday of.

E

March my husband's being sent for work, I'm following him, so we've moved it to.

A

March 10th, that will be the one change, so hopefully everyone can make the march 10th.