City of Portsmouth, New Hampshire Planning Board, 8 Aug 2022

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From YouTube: 8.8.2022 Planning Board Work Session

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8.8.2022 Planning Board Work Session

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Yeah that'd be good. Welcome to the August 8th planning board meeting.

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This is a work session, we're going to talk about zoning amendments. We have a presentation from.

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Staff tonight to go through the details of the proposed zoning amendments tonight.

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Is not a voting night for us? This is to ask questions to staff and I hope we can get all our.

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Board questions input answered, discussed as best we can. This will be on the agenda on.

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The 18th and I do expect to vote that night make a recommendation to council now there may be changes.

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But that's all possible, it could be a result of this tonight's discussions. At the end of this.

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Presentation and our interaction with staff public input will be allowed two minutes per person.

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So with that I think Nick, are you prepared to lead us? Yes, I believe so so good evening? Everybody.

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um Thanks Rick for the introduction, just to reiterate what Rick is saying that I think.

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The core purpose of tonight's meeting is to go through in a semi-comprehensive manner,.

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Of what actually is in front of us in respect to the zoning amendments, with an understanding.

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We're still, this is still evolving, we're still getting feedback from board members. Members of.

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The public and other participants as this moves through the drafting process, so we got a lot of.

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Ground to cover there there are still four main parts to this and I'm gonna, the in the PowerPoint.

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Really follow the document you got last week, which has the latest set of revisions advance.

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Okay, so again, the the core purpose of these Building height uh amendments is really to.

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Remove loopholes or ambiguity in the code that has resulted in recent years with some.

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Some buildings artificially uh adding height to the to the property, because the existing height.

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Definition, for at least a couple of decades is exclusively focused on the finished grade of the.

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Property so after the the land is developed, uh the the building height is actually measured off.

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Of the finished grade, so it's allowed as you'll see and have seen in previous meetings. Some recent.

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Projects to essentially build the first floor on Terra Firma on the existing property and.

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Then backfill around it create a platform and start measuring from that Second Story, which.

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Becomes the first and the building gets anywhere between 8 and 12 feet taller, depending on the.

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Florida floor Heights, so we're trying to address that we're trying to provide consistency across.

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All the character, districts and, in some cases, remove some incorrect references that are still.

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There from 2013 when, when this was initially adopted, we have gone through at least three.

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Major Amendment processes since 2013. the North End, was added in 2014 and there were amendments.

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Made to the downtown and at that time and then in 2015, when we did the West End a vision plan.

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And adopted that character-based zoning we also made changes to the North End and some additional.

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Ones for downtown, so it's high time we come back and and tweak this further and prove it further.

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To again maintain the consistency and not be surprised in the permitting process, with what.

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It generates from prospective applicants, so the the four parts are really looking at the building.

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Height map and making some changes to the map itself, the uh the second is corner or through lots.

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And incl it includes Waterfront Lots like rains, Ave or or Green Street along the north Mill Pond.

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And then number three part: three is talking about the Civic districts and part four, both adding new.

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Additions and modifying some others, so if we focus first on the building height map as part.

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One we're really doing three things here that that are in front of us. One is adding new streets like.

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Foundry place and um also adding both sides of a street like Siri Street. That's a good example of a.

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Street in 2013 that was added, but we only applied Building height standards to the uh to the north.

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Side of that street- and that was probably because the lots are so narrow on Market Street, there was.

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No need to put a building height standard behind them on Siri street, but it's a good idea in the.

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Code to have a building height standard on both sides of every street, so that that's the goal.

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With that particular Amendment, we'll we'll be able to walk through any of these I've, also got.

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A series of examples uh that I can present, if you need it as part of the discussion that I'm not.

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Going to go through uh proactively I'll wait for the questions. um The second thing we're doing is.

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Adding building, Heights or proposing here to add building Heights to Civic and Municipal properties.

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Currently, Civic and Municipal properties are exempt from all dimensional controls. There's.

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No Building height controls on municipal or Civic and there are no dimensional requirements.

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um And it seems like it would be helpful if the map didn't have all these gaps and had.

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The ability to at least provide some guard rails, General guard rails as to how new buildings.

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Alterations additions and extensions to either municipal or Civic properties would integrate.

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Themselves into the character-based zoning area, and then thirdly, we we the only substantive change.

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To the map everything's an addition, with the exception of the continued conversation about.

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Potentially modifying the building height standard on that one lot on Hanover and High Street.

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um So this map, here that you saw in the package I think it was exhibit one. This is all the proposed.

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Map changes that are in front of us and the only the only change that's been made since our last.

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Meeting, maybe five or six weeks ago is I, looked at all the Civic properties and the only one of.

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The nine that did not comport to the proposed Building height standard was a South Church.

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So what's proposed and what you have in front of you is an orange line around the South Church and.

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Every one of those nine Civic properties is well within the height standard. That's being proposed.

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So we're not creating new non-conformities to any of those properties in all the municipal.

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Properties are the remainder, with the exception of Foundry Place being added and one side of Siri.

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Street that you can see on this map, everything else is uh either Civic or Municipal. So all.

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These lines are new and the only thing um that's modified is the Haven Court High Street section.

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So this is what the map would look like. Should all this be adopted and I'll just back up for.

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A second on Foundry place, there was a lot of questioning about the heinemann property and.

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What what may or may not happen if there was a brown line, as originally proposed along the.

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South side of Foundry place and currently the city owns a piece of property between heinemann.

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And The Foundry place and we've come to learn that the owner of heinemann is interested in.

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Potentially, purchasing that thin strip behind the building, they have a I believe a license agreement.

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Or some type of agreement with the city, that's long-standing for the parking behind that building.

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um But because there's the potential of that land transfer to happen and the goal of this zoning.

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Amendment is not to change policy. It's to clean up the map. uh I modified that section behind the.

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Heinemann building to a green line which matches the existing green line, they already have on.

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Hanover Street, so there's no uh possibility of this amendment altering the existing development.

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Rights of the heinemann property, whether they buy the section from the city or not,.

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So those were the only two changes from five or six weeks ago on this map. uh Again South Church.

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Going up um 10 feet to the orange line to be consistent with the North Church and St John's.

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And conform to the height requirements and that section behind the heinemann.

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Nick, yes, I, know, I, think everybody here knows where you're talking about, but since this is.

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A public meeting- sorry heinemann property- forgot all about the mouse Yep. This is the.

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Heinemann, if you can see the arrow, this is the heinemann building here. What's left of it.

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um Used to be a much taller building, this is the parking garage. This is Foundry place, and this is.

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This is the only Peter Hackney at 66. Rock Street is right here, and he actually has no Building.

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Height standard today, that was an error in the original map. He has no height. We don't know what.

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That actually means he's, thankfully not come in and asked for a permit, but the goal here would.

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Be he does have Frontage now that Foundry place has been built on that cul-de-sac, we're applying.

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The green line he is in the character-based district, that's the last property uh in the.

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Character-Based zoning and then heinemann, and then it goes back along here along Hill Street.

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So there's heinemann there's the green line. The city owns a little bit of land right here between.

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The green line and the back of heinemann and then I talked about the south church right here. That.

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Was originally several months ago proposed to be a blue line around that church, which was consistent.

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With everything else around it, but in looking at the I dug out all the building Heights from.

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2013 and went through each of these properties to see how they would shake out with these.

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Rubber sheeted lines. Yes, can we ask questions now sure well Nick, while you're on The Foundry, Place.

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Area yep, could you explain how the new zoning will affect the essay lot too? If at all, I don't.

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Believe it'll affect dsa's lot too at all, and and could you point it out what am I doing lot? Two is.

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Right here, so the parking garage is this big gray block and there's lot two and here's lot three. So.

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Dsa, just for everybody's benefit, um DSA uh had had all of this property when we uh purchased.

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This this lot here and Foundry place for the garage. This was lot one. This is lot two. This is.

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Lot three: this is four five and six is over here behind the former Redland Johnson I can't remember.

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The name of the company there now, but that's lot, six back there, all in common ownership uh by DSA.

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Ferguson, thank you um so when the building height map was created for the north end in.

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2014 moving into 15., we didn't have Foundry place in order to create building Heights, to implement.

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The the vision plan down Foundry place, we knew we wanted to build the street and have these.

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Buildings, but we didn't have any Street to put any building Heights on so lot. Two today has no.

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Building height standard uh I'll come back to answer your question in just a second uh Jim.

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Lot 3 has a very small section right here: I'm going to show you on the next slide right here.

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This Brown Line is already so that's a brown lock, it's 50 feet and it it used the community space.

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To get to 60 feet, it's already been approved as a hotel. That's this lot here! This is the little.

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Bank that was approved for a four-story building 50 feet in height with no incentive, uh but that.

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Was not fully approved, so that needs to come back and it's under new ownership and it's likely to be.

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A whole new design for Lot 4, which is the bank property, the same owner that purchased lot four.

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Purchased lot 5, which is the Wells Fargo Building at the corner. The former train station they're.

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Currently in front of the HTC, they may have been to planning board for design review. They are.

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Proposing to do a 60-foot building there using the incentives for community space, the two lots that.

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Are back here near the garage that are still owned by I believe DSA? They both have uh they're in the.

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Permitting process of starting construction and both those buildings are approximately 60.

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Feet in height just under 60 feet, and you can see, there's a brown line on Hill Street going.

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Up beside Ferguson, and that was primarily done to support the building down on Foundry place.

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Because we didn't have Foundry place at the time in order to put these lines here so that that's.

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Proposed to be brown on both sides right here and then Brown along the garage presuming. We do the.

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Municipal properties, which it could it can happen or not Peter hapne, definitely needs some kind.

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Of color down here so he has a building height standard and this green line that that's recent.

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Here is to make sure there's in this particular set of amendments. There's no repositioning of.

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That the heinemann property for any more intensive development than it already has so I'll go back to.

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The question that was asked, which is what's the status a lot too as best I, know it Jim, because.

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I'm I'm, not necessarily the The Authority, but I, know that when we purchase the property in the.

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Post-Closure agreement with the Rogers uh folks, we uh are we're getting that and they've they've.

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Permitted that lot to be used as community space, so the end use of Lot 2, is to be conveyed to the.

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City and improved as a park between the parking garage and the hotel but I my recollection is.

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That that transaction hasn't occurred yet partly because the hotel hasn't been built and it's it's.

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Going to be used as a staging area during construction and then improved and conveyed.

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To the city, so that will be a municipal property at some point, once the hotel starts Construction.

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What has either a staging area lay down lot or a park? Yes, it should not have 50 feet.

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It could be whatever anybody wants it, but if that deal falls apart, yeah and that is privately.

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Sold because they renege on their eight hundred thousand dollars and the whole thing the whole.

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Deal falls apart and ends up in litigation that could be a building instead of a park.

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Absolutely, and it was it, the North End Vision plan makes it very clear: things can change now.

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Six or seven years later, but the vision plan was clear. That was a 60-foot district. Is this when.

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A project when a property is in play, I'll use the words in play, that's under litigation. It's.

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It's it's. Its final use is mysterious. Just like one Congress Street, it's in play, I I.

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Giving making a change is giving the owner private benefit. Well, you you may interpret.

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It that way. But if the vision plan for the city that was adopted by the city and it reflected.

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In the zoning that was put in place seized all buildings potentially going even in on lot, two.

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That that's a policy question that people have to answer. That's right is a private benefit.

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It's it, it's always a private benefit to make a change if the benefit is actually expanding.

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Property rights- and we are you you would be in that case, so we shouldn't be, we have, we have.

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Several options of how to proceed with this. Okay, the the map that has been prepared basically fills.

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In all of the gaps, including the cemetery, for you know, a building, height, designation and that's one.

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Way to do it, you can take a map like this and designate everything which is what has been done.

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You can put words in the ordinance to address the same sorts of things without having the whole map.

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As we get to a vote for Council, if a member proposes that you know this particular property.

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Maybe ought to have a different color or no color. You can say that and make a motion to that effect.

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Let's not argue about it, you made your point, I. Think it's a good point. You know you you've made.

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Your point well, but let's, let's talk about what's happening, we've got that one on next to the garage.

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I know we're going to hear from other people we've heard from other people already that.

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There are other sites that maybe the the colors might want to change a little bit or.

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Go away but let's be specific about things that are technically a workshop discussion.

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Well, that was a workshop discussion that we're giving and you did I. Thank you. I'm done. Okay,.

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Yeah I I would just follow up by saying there's a real simple answer to that. If the deal was to.

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Fall apart, they'd merged a lot it'd be 60 feet. That's the status quo. If we don't get that lot.

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They merge it with the lot next to it and it would have a 60 foot height today. That's the default.

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Position, so if we want to remove development rights, that's what's before you not adding them.

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Okay, um anything else thanks, so I have four examples of each of these areas that we've.

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Talked about at the last meeting, I'm going to skip past them and come back if you wish.

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To talk about what's happening actually on Foundry place, which I think we just covered.

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But series Street uh the Civic and Municipal map changes and High Street and Haven Court.

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So the only other change to the building height map is the scribner's error, which.

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We probably could have just made, but in the interest of transparency uh it 47 does not.

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Exist and it's 46 and that's how we've dealt with it over the last eight years.

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So I think that concludes part one. uh And if yes, if you don't mind Mr chairman, so there.

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Was questions raised about the noticing on this and we had sat down with our legal team to make.

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Sure that all these were properly published and noticed in accordance with the state statutes.

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I just wanted to draw some attention to RSA 675, a colon seven, which provides that if we are not.

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Changing a boundary changing the minimum lot size or the proposed uses if the district is less than.

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A hundred thousand, we do not I mean less than 100 Property Owners affected. It does not require the.

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Same a better notification, so that is really took us a minute because we made that we worked with.

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Legal on that a while back so we developed, we have a whole host of changes here, but this particular.

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One raised some interest about about our notices, and this is a a state statute that did not require.

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It because it was very limited in scope, I just wanted to offer that clarification. Thank you.

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Shall I proceed? Yes, okay, part, two is looking at how Corner, through and Waterfront lots are dealt.

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With and I think, we've all learned a lot from Congress Street. uh Those of you that are here.

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We've dealt with this routinely for the last eight years at the HTC and previous planning boards.

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We've not had any issues until recently, an interpretation as to how you apportion the.

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Building Heights that can be multiple on one lot. If it's a through lot moving from, for example,.

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State Street to Chief Street, that's the same property with different height standards. We.

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Feel like it's very clear, the way it's written, but it could be a little a little tightened up.

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To avoid debates or conflicts, or any ambiguity in how you apportion the building height on Corner,.

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Through Lots, so that's part of uh the change in part two and uh just tweaking the definitions.

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And, oh sorry, the first part of part two so 2A is I, think a really important part which.

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Is a a statement uh almost a disclaimer in the code that makes it very clear to the reader, the.

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Applicant the board members, the public that, within the historic district, the HDC of the.

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Historic district commission has jurisdiction over height Mass scale and volume of the building and.

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They are not obligated just because the code says you can build up to 60 feet or up to 50 feet. They.

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Are not obligated to approve that building at that maximum height if they feel it does not meet their.

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Criteria and most of them have known that most of the time I've been here but there's been a variety.

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Of interpretations uh well I've been here for 11 years and before as to whether the HTC can tell.

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Somebody to do a 55-foot building in a 60 60-foot District, it's obviously it can't be arbitrary. It.

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Has to meet the criteria they have to defend their ground if they're going to lower it, but.

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This is I, think a really important, again statement for all readers and, in particular, the HTC, to feel.

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Comfortable that you know sometimes that that building hype map is not going to be perfect.

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That's for sure it's going to have instances where five or six feet makes a difference so that.

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That's 2A and then 2B as I said a minute ago, is wordsmithing how you apportion Building height on.

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These Corner, through or Waterfront lots and a good idea somebody brought to me, was you know: we've.

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Already got Street or public place that's in there, but we don't have a definition for public place so.

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We create did one of those which will come up in a minute when we get to the definition section, but.

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Why not embed Street in public place, so we don't have an either or which led us into the supposed.

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Ambiguity about how you apportion something like Congress Street from down High Street, Haven Court,.

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I, don't want to focus on that project, but I think most of you have seen it, and you know enough about.

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It we want to avoid wasting time in dealing with administrative appeals or just even conversations.

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About what is met, we've been doing it this way for for eight years, it makes sense. 50 feet is a.

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Very conservative buffer from a street Edge. So if you're on a you, if you've got a property, that's a.

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150 feet deep and you've got a taller, Building height standard on one end of the property.

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Versus the other, the lower Building height standard is protecting the the street for 50.

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Feet back before you can actually jump up to the higher level. So it's a high degree of protection.

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I would say: Portsmouth is very conservative with a number like 50. It could easily be 20., but we're.

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Not changing it, we're leaving it at 50.. I just want people to understand what it is and why it's.

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Important to this section, I think I think there was a question on a on a sorry if you could, if.

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You could just pause at the end of each one and look at me and I'll just kind of look around and.

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Make sure everybody's good with each because we're this is really meaty, stuff and I just want to as.

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I said I want to make sure folks are comfortable with it before you jump on to the next. So we're.

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You know so I think Jim had a question and Nick I want to go back to your statement about the.

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Infusioner, maybe some people have different interpretations about when a zone or color.

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Has different stories like it's, you know, yellow or green or blue. It says two to four yes stories. Yes,.

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Based on what you just said, I interpret that to mean only the HDC can dictate how tall that building will be between two and four. Is that correct.

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If you're in the historic district right, the HDC is the only governing uh board that has any.

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Jurisdiction over Building height, so you could buy inference, conclude that but the a property.

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Owner within the historic district, that's on a a green line that says two to three stories or.

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40 feet has the right to come in and ask for a 40-foot building. That's three stories tall. It.

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Just may be, the HTC might not want to see it quite that tall right and I just want to make sure that.

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It's only the HTC that can back that height down. I would agree with that. Okay, because, as you know,.

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When people see this range, though at least I was initially I was confused like what's that really.

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Mean the ranges we always go to the very tallest, so why you have a range? Well, the range, the range.

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Is done it's a good point and that there's a lot of things that are sometimes unintended.

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Outcomes we would have expected most people to come in with the tallest building they've been.

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Doing it since the dawn of time right, so that's why we have a. We have a a building height map.

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That's basically I make the mistake of calling it a street-based building height map, but it's really.

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Not Street based it's block by block and some blocks are going to have multiple colors, because.

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Of the the methodology that was used to create it was to be very nuanced, very sort of surgical.

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And look at the existing building Heights and the surrounding context and notice that there's a very.

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Big difference between Market Square and Fleet Street and Chestnut Street, but yet before we did.

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The character-based zoning everything was 60 feet, downtown, no matter where you were Chief. Street was.

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No different than Market Square, so we've got this again: nuanced refined, Building height map and we.

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Don't want single story buildings in the district that that we knew meaning just one floor downtown.

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Is really out of character with Portsmouth, so the decision was made. We don't want single.

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Story buildings: there might be some two-story buildings that work, so let's create a range.

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Between two and the max, we certainly were well aware: we're not going to get too many that are.

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On the low end, but the low end is to prevent the single from happening under utilizing. The space.

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If I can help with this many current character, based or form-based codes, only specify stories.

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And so they would say we're going to say two to three I'd say three: in Portsmouth we have a height.

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Maximum, so it's 20 35, 40, 50 60, and within that height maximum, you can have a range of stories.

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That gets you to that height. So, depending on how tall your ceilings are, you can have a 40-foot.

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Building, that's just two floors right or it could be several floors. That's that's where you get.

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The range it's not it's, not that we as a planning board, have discretion to say well, you're, proposing.

A

A four-story building, we only want two, it's the height, the foot limitation that provides the upper.

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Threshold, oh, the HTC does have the authorities, we don't want a four-story building. We wanted.

C

To correct yes, okay, yeah again and I, don't want to give anybody the the misimpression that they.

B

Can just cavalierly do that they've got to be very careful judicious and have a good reason to to do.

B

That but I I, like the master plan or something like that. Well, looking at their criteria and.

B

Looking at the the site, within its context, I mean they've, got they've got pretty detailed criteria. I.

B

Think they're open to interpretation, which is both good and and maybe bad. But um you know we went.

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Through this on 77 State Street, when Steve Kellen came in for the X Exxon gas station and converted.

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That into the building, that's at the bottom of that street, with the wine bar or whatever it is.

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It's a mansard and he had a full extra story on that when he filed and the HTC.

B

um Cajoled or encouraged him to consider a penthouse and drop a story and that's what he did.

B

So it's a 53-foot building instead of a 60-foot building and yes, you could, from the bridge, you can.

B

See the penthouse, but when you're in the parking lot or on State Street, you don't see the penthouse.

B

That's an example of the HDC having jurisdiction to not not just say nothing about hype.

A

There's nothing new, it's just stating something. That's been not news, so Andrew uh to Jim's.

E

Question future zoning notwithstanding I think the heinemann is an example of that.

E

Is that right example of what, where oh, that's the height of the first dictates.

E

One but then the historic district would the heinemann is not in the historic district. So.

B

They they won't be reviewed lot. Six lot, three for DSA, not in the historic district, so those.

B

Buildings are likely to be quite different than they would have on lot. Four and five.

B

Imperfect again, uh Maps right, okay, any other questions on that. One.

B

Are there questions on 2B.

B

It's fairly straightforward, wordsmithing, the definition of public place will come.

B

Up in in the part four, so you can better understand what that is. It's not Magic.

B

Oh and the last sort of part, I guess I'll call it 2C, and this in your document is listed under the.

B

Definition section, which is the last part, but it fits here because it it's hand in glove with this.

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Section of the code right here we just talked about how you apportion um Building height on.

B

Lots that have more than one color, because they're corner or through Lots. You need to know what the.

B

Definition of front lot line is and we're wanting to make it super explicit. Waterfront lots are just.

B

Like corner and through Lots with multiple colors and importantly, just because your principal front.

B

Yard, which is where your address is allocated to the to the property, does not in any way omit the.

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Building height standard on the secondary street, again AKA one Congress, High, Street and Congress.

B

Are both Building height standards that apply to that property in our opinion and we're trying to.

B

Make it even more explicit to avoid what we all just went through any questions on that.

B

The example you see on the screen is is State Street, just these are all most of the. These are.

B

All through Lots, with different Building height standards on Chief as you'd expect it's a two and.

B

A half story neighborhood this is a three-story neighborhood. The average height is about nine.

B

Feet different and lower on Chief from state so and he we can come back, but are we good there.

B

Okay, so we're into part three, which is the Civic districts and the proposal to again.

B

Put some general um guard rails on Civic properties, they have no Building height cap.

B

They can be as tall as they want. They have no setbacks, no coverage, no Footprints. There are no.

B

Standards in the existing code and we've actually only had two projects in the last eight years come.

B

Before us, the Warner house, that's shown in the lower the image at the bottom. They came in and.

B

Were building their they haven't started I, don't think yet the accessory building on Chapel Street.

B

And um they went to the board of adjustment I'm, not sure we fully knew at the time they went that.

B

Maybe they didn't need to go because there's no standards, it seemed so um surprising to us.

B

That there were no standards for these Civic properties, and just so everybody knows Civic.

B

Properties, the Civic districts, we have nine in the character, District area and I think I've got.

B

A map in here, but it's like the Warner house, the the John Paul, Jones and um and and others Langdon.

B

They um they need to be owned by a non-profit, and they need to be generally open to the general.

B

Public! That's why the Athenaeum is not here, uh the doors are locked and you you need a key to get in.

B

um It's certainly a non-profit, but um so, though we have nine of them here we used to have ten.

B

The Salvation Army was sold. It was converted to a residential use it because of that it needed.

B

A zoning Amendment change, it became CD4 from Civic and we assigned a building height standard, so they.

B

Could redevelop that property that was done by the city council, probably two to three years ago.

B

um But that's the process for changing from a Civic property to a non-civic, but the issue.

B

That we're you know at least wanting to have here is some predictability. If any of these museums or.

B

Properties want to add new buildings, alterations or additions that there be at least some modicum.

B

Of of dimensional standards that everybody else has including every other Civic property in this.

B

The city of Portsmouth, that is not in the downtown think of this Benny Road North, Church property,.

B

That has dimensional controls all over it. It's in the SRA you've got the Little Harbor Chapel, you've.

B

Got stuff on Woodbury Lafayette, all those Civic properties have dimensional controls, but these.

B

Don't and again this doesn't have to happen, it's not going to change the world, but it seems like.

B

Everybody should have an understanding of what might happen before it happens.

B

The Peter! Oh, what so, if you, if we did put these on to the Civic properties, would the process be.

C

The same if they were to change to a private or you know, a different prop, so if one property, if.

B

I understand your question: if one of these nine remaining Civic properties in the downtown area.

B

Were to change to a non-civic use, they would be disqualified from being Civic as soon as.

B

They propose to become something else. They would need to go to the city council right now and ask.

B

For a zoning Amendment and the zoning Amendment would change them, probably to CD4 cd5. It would.

B

Have to be a character District! That's not Civic, similar to what the Salvation Army correct. Exactly.

C

Let's say that the new height things are in place now, yes, with the same situation, be the case most.

B

Likely I mean they'd have the ability if they were to sell to somebody and all nine will will conform.

B

Let's say somebody buys the Langdon house and wants to do something there and it's taller than.

B

The blue line, which is I, believe 35 feet, quote me on that it's two and a half stories if they.

B

Wanted to have something taller and they wanted to change that from Civic to non-civic. They could.

B

Ask at that time, like the Salvation Army too, which was ad asking for a new building height standard.

B

That didn't exist, they could amend the code if the city felt it was in the city's interest.

B

There's no intention here to make anything any more difficult for anybody and looking at the CD4.

B

Just so everybody is clear on this because it's not intuitive the cd5 and the CD4 you guys again.

B

Have got a good education from Congress Street, because that parking lot CD4 and the rest of.

B

It cd5 there's almost no difference between the four and the five it's it's so inconsequential.

B

For example, the building height coverage, how much of the land you can cover with a building in the.

B

Cd5 is 95 percent of the site, you're thinking wow, that's pretty Urban. The CD4 is 90 percent.

B

They're almost the same and all the uses are the same. So there isn't a really big difference.

B

Between the four and the five, and that just goes to show you, when you look at these or think of.

B

These museums or Civic properties- they are so lightly developed for the CD4 that this is not.

B

Going to have a discernible impact on them at all. You know some of them could expand six-fold before.

B

They'd hit that ceiling because they generally are bigger properties with smaller buildings.

B

So the intention here isn't to spawn development. Remember right now they have no rules.

B

So there's no rules, no caps, that's Infinity uh and we're we're trying to put something on that. That's.

B

Way above what's there, but at least some guard rails to give some people some predictability.

B

Does that sort of answer your question Peter? Yes, thank you. Thank you.

B

Keep going keep going, okay, please, so the next slide simply refers to the CD4 standards.

B

That's what that 10c is the CD for and I have an example. Should you want to see it.

B

As to what the table looks like in CD4, um but trust me, they they have a lot of room to grow.

B

uh Okay, so we're in the fourth part, which is the final part, and it's the definitions that.

B

Are either being added or modified, so we're adding new definitions for public place? We already have.

B

Public place in the code just not defined so that we're adding a definition. You see it bolded in the.

B

The previous slide, but that's only because everything in the code is bolded, where there's.

B

A definition in the back of the book, so that's why that is bolded, but public place is already.

B

There it's just not defined we're we've created through uh a great deal of effort and conversation.

B

How to deal with cuts and fills with Building height this? This looked to me a lot easier at.

B

The beginning than it ended up being you know those images you see on the right hand, side which.

B

Have been here from day, one they're, the that ended up being the easy part uh trying to stop that or.

B

Minimize that or control that those all three of those buildings built the what's now the basement.

B

On top of the ground, more or less and backfilled around it and all three of those are able to.

B

Measure off the finished grade, because that's the way it works today, we're feeding myself and.

B

We're trying to tackle that by looking at not just the average finish grade, but the average existing.

B

Grade and take whatever's lower, so we deal with both fill situations which were the easier ones to.

B

Visualize, but also Cuts, as most of you know, most of the land in Portsmouth and everywhere else in.

B

New England isn't flat and it's either got a cut or a fill associated with construction and the big.

B

Change here is we're going to require height, to be measured off existing grade previous to.

B

Construct action and post and take whatever's and obviously the post, isn't after construction. It's.

B

It's what's projected to be after construction, when they're in the permitting process and.

B

Whichever is lower is going to be the standard that we apply to again prevent situations where.

B

Taller buildings than we anticipated arrive on the landscape and I'm, not suggesting they're.

B

All bad uh outcomes, but we we don't even have a say in the game right now when they do that.

B

So that's the first part of 4A and then 4B, which is the label number two. There are some modified.

B

Definitions, we already did the front lot line up up above where I think it made more sense. So it's.

B

Really, the building height definition, penthouses, mansard, roofs and short stories, so public place.

B

Is pretty straightforward: uh it's a public! It's a street Way Park, pedestrian, Alleyway or community.

B

Space, it's essentially anywhere that provides Public Access, so our building height map, wherever.

B

You have one of these: things should have a building height on both sides of that public place.

B

In order to differentiate between sort of downtown or Urban environments and Suburban environments,.

B

Or non-urban, we have created a definition of urban districts and this corresponds to how.

B

You measure Building height, should any of this get adopted in an urban District which are the.

B

Character in Civic districts again downtown you would what we're concerned and focused.

B

On is the height of the building along a public place along a street along the way.

B

Along an alley, we don't care what's going on between or behind that building in respect to.

B

Its relationship to a pedestrian on the street or how we experience that building so the the.

B

Main difference, or differentiation of urban to non-urban is focusing in on the street level.

B

Facades, not the entire perimeter of the building, which is how it'll work in the non-urban areas.

B

So you will, like I, said earlier: somebody's going to have to calculate the definite the average.

B

Existing grade for the the building in which they want to build and they're going to have to do the.

B

Same thing for the average finish grade and the definition of Building height, we'll look at both.

B

Of those and take the lower again, so we avoid the fills and avoid the the the hill sites that.

B

Are cut from artificially elevating the height of the building beyond what the code intended.

B

So this is just finished grade, they're, essentially the same definition uh existing and finished with.

B

Those words being interchanged yep, sorry, real, quick Nick, so you get rid of the six foot offset.

C

And you just measure on the outside walls: uh did we actually do that I? Think yeah? We.

B

Did? Okay thanks, Rick and remember yeah I'm I'm getting lost myself, but um it'll all be a little.

B

Bit clearer when we get in the definition of Building height, where the measurement.

B

Pieces embedded right, that'll, help me, which we happen to be at um so in in measuring the.

B

Height of a building, you not only need to look at the average existing and average finished.

B

And take whatever's lowest that becomes your lower reference point where you start measuring.

B

Every five feet around the building you're taking measurements from that low reference.

B

Point lower reference point, meaning either the average existing or average finished the upper.

B

We'll get to in just a second, so you gotta: where do you stop measuring as you go up the building.

B

When you go up the building, you either have a flat building or you have a sloped roof building.

B

So a flat roof or a sloped roof flat roof is, uh is what it is. uh It's flat or it's a flat top mansard.

B

A mansard that's only got one roof plane and then kind of like Burger King. uh It's not got windows.

B

In it, it is just a flat plane and then most of the roof is flat and flat. Roof is defined in the coat.

B

Is a roof? That's under a four four one, four to one pitch for more than 50 percent of the roof surface.

B

If you're in one of those things as either a flat top building or a flat top Manser,.

B

You're going to measure from that lower reference point, the average existing or.

B

Average finish grade all the way to the top of the building that that hasn't changed.

B

In the code here, that's why nothing under B1 is changed. What's changed is.

B

um We're clarifying here that the hip top mansard roof, which is shown in the existing zoning is, is.

B

Getting the same 50 percent discount in height that Gables gambrell's other hip roofs, anything.

B

That's pitched you measure to the midpoint of the roof, because it's backing away from the cornice.

B

And it's not as visible and has a very different interface with the street than a flat wall.

B

Think think, sort of Port walk with the flat roof buildings, so we're just trying to clarify.

B

Here that past practice has been for a long time, many decades that hip top mansard roofs.

B

Get the same credit that Gable, gambrill and hip roofs get and the other piece that uh I I added.

B

In here for discussion is uh penhouses pen, houses right now uh are allowed and they are considered.

B

Addicts just like Gables, Gambrills, hips and hip top mansards penhouses are also considered.

B

Addicts all five of those all five of those are already not defined as stories they're, not stories.

B

They're considered addicts. So if you have a two to three story: green line, you can build a three.

B

And a half story building, provided you don't go over the 40-foot um height requirement in feet so.

B

um Penthouses are are currently and always have been treated as addicts, but they've not been given.

B

Any of the benefits of all the other attic type, roof forms and remember a penthouse is right now.

B

Required to be 15 feet back from all roof edges, you know, a mansard is is right on the roof. Edge.

B

uh And the mansard gets credit for half the roof. It goes to the midpoint. So what I? What.

B

I'm suggesting we at least I'm going to go to the definition of Penthouse and then toggle.

B

Back that we consider is pushing the penthouse even five feet further from the the facade of.

B

The building along a public place or a street to 20 feet, but allow it to not only not be a story.

B

But give it the same 50 credit that every other attic space gets so they're, apples and apples.

C

Related to this, but not on the screen, there was a change in the distance of the railing.

B

Yeah, you know that's, yes, there was and the railing and nothing to do with a penthouse. So.

C

Oh I thought it was on the penthouse story that we know we changed the distance of the railing.

C

From the outside of the building, no there's a Greg I'll. Look that up in a minute when I.

B

Finish but there there is a current requirement. I thought of that today, going through this I'm like.

B

Where where's that piece in the presentation, um there is a requirement in the code and I'll fish.

B

It out when we get finished here and give you a better answer, but uh there's a sort of obscene.

B

uh Setback requirement, in my mind, in respect to the the how far back a railing has to be from a.

B

Roof Edge it's up to four feet in height and has to be two or more times back, which it is odd.

B

You know, especially if, if you don't completely dislike the penthouse on 100 Market Street, which.

B

To me is really effectively done, that is on the outside bearing wall and it's a decorative.

B

Railing and it works that appears to be what way out of line with what was required whenever that.

B

Was adopted so that that's the spirit of what I was trying to get to but we'll go, but that's.

B

A great example, so, whatever the setback is of the wall from that Railing at that particular.

C

Building we're moving it from 15 to 20 in this ordinance, yes, okay, yeah, yeah and and for what.

B

It's worth 100 Market Street is an eight foot step back uh and it it's pretty pretty effective.

B

uh So yeah I think 20 I'm going to go back to Penthouse or figure out where it went. Foreign.

B

So move to 20 from 15 give it the same uh 50 discount that everybody else gets it's an attic.

B

It's not a story, it isn't today, and the last part on there uh is to not just not discourage.

B

That they have not always flat roofs that they have as you like, the one you see in the middle.

B

On Bow Street, a shallow hip roof. If we, if we don't, provide some wiggle room for that, that.

B

Penthouse to be a little bit taller in order to have a pitched roof, the skyline of the city is.

B

Turning into a box and we we have to be- and again it's maybe more my opinion than everybody else's.

B

That's why we're here? The HTC certainly agrees with what I'm saying, because they're D they're.

B

Dealing with the Aesthetics of these buildings and the skyline and the edge of roof treatment.

B

And we're finding that most new buildings are so tight against the maximum height there's no room.

B

To add even an articulated or raised cornice or parapet that would really improve the look and.

B

Feel of downtown Portsmouth again I think most the HTC would agree with that. I've I've been working.

B

With him a long time and heard that repeatedly, okay, so we'll come back to that in a second.

B

Andrew has a question: I'm, sorry, Andrew, yeah, really brief. 51 Islington street is sort of a combination.

E

Of that, where it's partially mansard and partially Penthouse or I think what could be classified.

E

As a penthouse, only because there are exterior balconies and railings, how is something like that.

E

Measured and how do you think that, are we looking to achieve something more to that effect or.

E

What is the direction so I I don't know that I've ever been on the roof of 51 days, LinkedIn street.

B

It's certainly not since it's been finished so I I can't really remember or Envision that space But I.

B

Can tell you what the intent is. The the penthouse is actually the structure, not the ancillary decks.

B

Or railings that may or may not be present um and and obviously even the stairwell is an appendage.

B

To the penthouse to get up there or the elevator overrun, so it's intended to be as it is today. No.

B

Greater than 50 percent of the floor Below in in footprint not more than 10 feet in height, if it's.

B

Flat or 14 if it has a pitched roof, you get a 50 discount on that, like the uh other sloped roofs.

B

That already get that discount and whether you have a roof deck that goes out to the cornice.

B

Or halfway back, that's really up to the HTC if it's in the district and the owner, if it's not.

E

Okay yep: can you speak to to the bottom of the photograph? You obviously put it there for a reason.

E

To speak to your your point: what was it about that photograph in those the combination of roofs that.

E

Supported your point: okay, well, 100, Market Street! That's it on the right right! Left! Oh I'm, sorry, I,.

B

Didn't hear you say left: well, that's just a it's a man's hard roof uh on the corner and there's no.

B

Magic to it other than that's not considered uh a story is, would that actually be within our current.

E

Zoning language, would you actually consider that a man-side roof- yes, pardon me Joe and for folks.

D

Speaking, you pull the mic up a bit closer to the microphone thanks. Okay, due to its very high I, mean.

E

Obviously, it's a very successful. You know great example of everything we love about downtown, but.

E

But I believe it has two roof planes, there's one above there. So it's going to qualify and there's.

B

A new definition in a subsequent slide here of mansard roof, differentiating a flat top from.

B

A hip top I believe this is probably a hip top. If we got up a little higher there'd be another.

B

Roof plane it's punctuated, but with those windows, it's probably at the 3012 pitch, which is pretty.

B

Vertical there are dimensional requirements in the code today as to what it can't be a flat wall. It.

B

Can exceed 3012. so so presuming it doesn't exceed that it would count as an addict. It would count as.

B

A man's hip top mansard, but it would violate the height requirement because there's no discount I'm.

B

Calling it uh like other sloped roofs, uh I'm. Sorry, that's wrong! If it's a hip top, it gets the mid. Yes.

B

I don't know why I said that I'm stuck still stuck on penthouses yeah, so that that would be measured.

B

To the midpoint of that roof between the eve, the The Ridge and the Eve, you take the midpoint with.

B

Any of these pitched roofs. Sorry, sorry I did that I want to confuse people. Everybody understand.

A

That, or do you need to see a mouse on that? Oh I'm, sorry, that's! That's! The hip top mansard there and.

B

I apologize, Rick I, keep forgetting so the the so the height of the building would be to hear.

B

uh Where the arrow is I, I suspect the location of that of where it actually bends and changes.

E

To another roof plane, yeah, probably the the height of where it makes that transition.

E

Might be problematic might be in today's yeah yeah okay I mean I I, don't have the math on that yeah.

B

um Okay yeah this one here is more the penthouse scenario anyway, one more or.

C

If you're gonna go into the mansard roof definition I'll, let you I'll, let you yeah. Okay,.

B

I'll, go there now all right! How about that.

B

So modify the definition of a mansard roof. If you read the definition we have today, I'm surprised.

B

This hasn't come up before recently uh the the problem I see with the current definition the.

B

Current definition does not really differentiate between a flat top and a hip top, which is really.

B

Not appropriate they're very different roof forms the flat top again being generally one-sided.

B

Instead of two and most of the roof being flat, which again is defined in the code, is less than.

B

Four, a 412 pitch, so um what we're attempting to do here with the new definition is be very clear.

B

Flat tops, are this and hip tops, are that and hip tops get the the sloped roof benefit and.

B

Flat tops do not very similar to the diagram we want to delete, not not because that's wrong.

B

But because this diagram- that's in there now, which which has functioned fairly well, will not.

B

Function well with Urban and non-urban areas and how we measure Building height. But if you look at.

B

This, which is in the code today, this is a flat top mansard right here, I think it's it's even labeled.

B

Flat top mansard, so this has been in the code for decades, and that is what a FL that's a parapet on.

B

There just a railing system, but it's one plane, no windows, and you would measure this from the.

B

Finished grade to the to the top of the parapet, if it's over two feet, if it's under two feet, you'd.

B

Use the roof, but you get the idea. This is treated like a flat building, a gambrel or a Gable or a hip.

B

Roof or a hip top mansard anything with a pitch on it, you're going to go to the midpoint, so we.

B

Agree with this we've been doing it. This way, we're going to continue to do it that way, if this well.

B

If it passes and the definition will hopefully make it much clearer the difference between a.

B

Flat and a hip top answer go ahead, so the upper roof still has to have the four to one slope.

C

Meet the definition of a sloped roof, the upper you, you need two roof planes right and you need.

B

To have no more, what you need to do, if you are a hip top mansard, is make sure no more than 50.

B

Percent of your roof surface is flat. So so you like, like one Congress, pitching it down into a.

B

Well is not a violation of a hip top mansard as long as that? Well, it's actually a pretty.

B

Innovative idea to hide all the Mechanicals yeah, because if you look at 25 Maplewood, which went the.

B

Other way and took a very big footprint and pushed it to the middle, to have it be more traditional.

B

With a a roof you that projects outward instead of inward, all the mechanical stuff is, is stuck.

B

On top on a very flat section- and you can see it from all over the place, so at least.

B

Allowing the recessed area allows for the kinds of rooftop Mechanicals which are on all these.

B

Buildings right in Spades, okay and so I yeah I just want to make sure that that upper pitch.

C

Portion still estimate the definition correct of a pitch whether it's this way or this way yeah it.

C

Still has to be, yes, it does yeah and then and then what as long as you're not exceeding the 50 in the.

B

Middle you can drop down and hide things great pop over. Is it for what it's worth I've been out there.

B

I have been up there. Popovers has a big recessed area in the middle of that mansard roof to house.

B

Mechanical uh so does I think the Porter Street townhouses have the same big well in the middle.

B

Of the roof, as this 40 Bridge Street, okay, yeah I mean it's a good technique to hide that stuff. Okay,.

B

Let me see what I the parapet wall, and this is where I thought Greg of the the railing where'd.

B

That go um again, this is this is really an HDC ask in respect to just having the ability to.

B

Have a little more interest on the top of the building Edge and two feet is proven to be not.

B

Enough to do an articulated or or raise cornice or a parapet wall, that's that's different and again.

B

You think of two Russell Street, which is the the big parking lot on Deer Street. That's currently.

B

In front of multiple boards, it's got a very large building in the Middle, with almost a I. Don't know.

B

A thirty thirty five thousand square footprint and it's got It's modularized as you come up. Russell.

B

Street into deer and all the HTC was trying to do with the applicant, both parties wanting to do it.

B

Was bring the roof up a little bit in the middle, so it really has a sense of Entry. When you look.

B

At the building, because it has so many- you know, segments coming around the corner, uh just think of.

B

The Athenaeum and what that roof form does, which is way more than four feet. But the idea of the.

B

Athenium sweeping up really creates some interest in Market, Square and you're not able to really do.

B

Anything like that, unless you give up the story behind it, which is obviously not going to happen.

E

Yeah you brought up another good example of the Anthony I think so many times. I'm always very.

E

Guarded about some examples that we all cherish and love so much, whether it's the Rockingham.

E

Hotel or the little roof on the corner there I just pointed out or that sometimes the language.

E

The unintended consequence of modern zoning eliminates the ability for those things to be.

E

Done as well, what I like about this is the the four feet allows for the parapet to be to serve.

E

As a guard rail as well, so you don't have the uh the added the added guard rail for access to.

E

The roof you know for code for code purposes, um so you know another benefit. I'm. Thinking of you.

B

Know even our concept plan for the McIntyre we've got a potential railing system on that building.

B

That if it's limited to two feet, it it pretty much guarantees what's above it is visible. You know if.

B

You have a roof deck and you're only allowed to go up two feet with a masonry wall. Then you're going.

B

To put a railing system on it of some sort- and you know it would be nice in some instances to.

B

Have it be more opaque egg and bring that masonry wall up so I'm, going to agreement with that and.

B

You know these examples on here nobody's trying to push. You know: 19th century uh Cornish treatments, I,.

B

Just grabbed some images and put them on, but these are heavier cornices, that to Joe's point we're.

B

Finding in choosing 40 50 and 60 foot building Heights that the industry standard for three four.

B

And five story: buildings is almost 40 50 60 feet. There's like no extra space, so they're running up.

B

Against the 60 or the 50 or the 40 as soon as they get the ceiling of the top floor done so.

B

They actually can only get two feet. That's allowed as an impertinence. Above it there's, usually inches.

B

Left, if any so having four will create some wiggle room, it's not going to create four foot parapets.

B

On everything, it might create some threes, some two and a halfs, but it it's going to give us.

B

Some ability, I think at the HTC level to have some more interesting caps on these buildings.

B

Keep going sorry uh I'm backing up just to make sure I didn't skim over anything. Okay, I didn't now.

B

So we did the penthouse, we did the definition last slide. uh This is late to the party here.

B

But this is another one that you know came up as part of the Congress Street review.

B

We, the the definition, is there without the words flat top and it makes zero sense. It.

B

Conflicts with at least three other sections of the code, a top story below a cornice of a sloped.

B

Roof that that's at a height, eighty percent I'm not seeing what's behind, uh read it up here at.

B

Least, 20 percent shorter than the height of the story below that. That's what you find in most of.

B

Our federal architecture, whether it's Starbucks or down State Street you'll, find the third floor.

B

Of many federal buildings has a compressed third floor. It's shorter windows that that makes sense.

B

Under one but number, two makes zero sense: a story within a mansard roof with a pitch no greater than.

B

30 12., that's a short story. The definition of attic makes very clear in the code that a hip.

B

Top mansard, which is a type of mansard, is not a story, and we have not been treating hip top.

B

Mansards as stories for eight years, I didn't realize this is what we've always interpreted.

B

It to be, we haven't had any flat top, thankfully mansards, but that's what should be a short story.

B

um Anyway, or we have to change the definition of addict I mean you have to go one way or the other.

B

And I think Common Sense would suggest this is this is the intention here um hip tops are not.

B

Stories full or short all right, I think I'm I made it through there Rick any other questions.

C

Nick um I'm, sorry I'm, sorry.

D

um I think I've asked this before Nick, but is there going to be a possibility since we're.

D

Now, adding height to Foundry place that Hill Street would drop down to Green to be more in.

D

Tune to all of the buildings that are surrounding that street in that area, yeah I'm not surprised.

B

Somebody asked that question I've asked it a few times but I'm going to make sure it happens.

C

One way or another yeah I, think I was here six weeks ago uh and if not uh two or three weeks.

B

Before that, the second last meeting suggesting that we go in that direction and then I woke.

B

Up to the fact that you know that actually would trigger a notice requirement. We're also not here.

B

To diminish people's property rights or add to them, obviously the exception to that is the.

B

Congress Street uh five foot piece, everything else is neutral and at least in my mind it was so um I.

B

Definitely agree that I think I explained earlier in this presentation. The reason Hill Street is.

B

Brown is because we didn't have Foundry place so now that we have Foundry place and we're going to.

B

Make it presumably Brown uh to match, what's been previously approved, uh not built yet but approved.

B

um We we could take another pass at looking at that whole hill, Hanover Street and maybe.

B

Rock Street neighborhood I think it needs a more comprehensive review there as I'm sure. Most of you.

B

Are aware, you know, there's discussions about the downtown overlay district and is it appropriate.

B

To have on the parking lot in front of heinemann I I I'd agree, it probably isn't you know: I, don't I.

B

Can't imagine that neighborhood wants commercial uses in front of the heinemann, but that that's.

B

A question that needs to be answered in a public process, this, the overlay District, which does not.

B

Include the parking lot, meaning the incentive overlay District only includes heinemann and.

B

Lot, six and everything down on Foundry place. You know I, think that's that's open for discussion.

B

But people do need to look at the North End Vision plan and see the preliminary height numbers which.

B

Are all 60 feet all down? Foundry Place, uh you know some of the renderings show shorter buildings, but.

B

In the translation of the uh the the North End Vision into the code, it's pretty clear the reason.

B

The numbers went down 10 feet on all those streets was because of the incentive overlay, District.

B

Getting them back up to what people said they could accept, but get the public benefits of either.

B

The workforce, housing or the community space, so I I think that's something we should the land use.

B

Committee or somebody I'd be more than willing to work with whomever to reevaluate that neighborhood.

B

And make sure we got it right Nick. Could you I, don't know if there's a question for you or.

A

Beverly, you said it's a notice problem, because I I also support the idea of Hill Street being green.

A

On both sides, why is that a notice problem so I think taking away right, yeah I think we looked.

D

At it in a couple, different ways and I think Nick is really very, uh you know, um uh definitely kind.

D

Of laid out the three reasons we looked at, that we had a published notice, so it wasn't a butter.

D

Notice, it was a published notice and we thought this maybe fell outside the scope of what was.

D

Published we hadn't included it originally because it does take away because it does essentially take.

D

Away the development right to a certain degree, we felt maybe a higher level of um notice might.

D

Be just a courtesy notice, or at least engagement might be warranted on that particular issue and.

D

Then the third piece being something that we're really trying to draw back to is the vision plan.

D

Is the you know the master plan for the area and what we feel like has been articulated by the.

D

Community and as we I think, Nick really Drew from that in sort of making some of his determinations.

D

In that 60-foot sort of vision for that Corridor, uh looking at all three of those things, we decided.

D

Maybe this is a little bit outside the scope and we should talk about this separately. I think when.

D

You're starting to take away what somebody has an investment, backed expectation for you,.

D

Would for sure want to have a little bit more of a public engagement process, I think well that helps.

A

Thank you very much. Jim. You had a question. Yes, Nick I understand the HTC approved one Congress.

C

Recently correct, under the current zoning correct, would that make the proposed change null and void.

B

No uh there's no guarantee that's going to be built number one I mean we don't.

B

We don't know you can presume it's going to be built, but until it's built it's not built and.

B

um Being yeah, no okay I just thought that, since they seem to be on a path of I, mean they're.

B

Building a project with the current zoning that why do we need to change it? It's a fair question.

B

And I don't know what Mark McNabb is thinking or not thinking regarding his HTC approval.

B

But obviously he'd have the ability to modify his design he'd have the ability to continue.

B

With what he's pursuing this really isn't about Mark McNabb, it's about what's right,.

B

For that property, it's also Nick. If I could add, it's also about some of the things that we're.

D

Encountering in the implementation of the code, there was something that did go against I. Think.

D

An interpretation that that particular developer had, and it was that through in corner lot and.

D

The public place issue these were, there was a different sort of evaluation of what that meant.

D

And there was quite a bit of Staff discussion back and forth. We, we issued an administrative.

D

Decision about what we believe that to mean we held, we stood by it, but we recognized that there.

D

Was ambiguity and so I think all of these, not all of them, but many of these represent just.

D

Lessons that we're learning as we go go through it sometimes they're, supported by administrative.

D

Decisions- and we are looking to I, would say, Galvanize and strengthen those administrative.

D

Decisions with code language that is not ambiguous, we understand we get into very deep philosophical.

D

Arguments about very specific sections of the code, we make an administrative decision, but we.

D

See the ambiguity and like to close the loops and so I think that is a Genesis for many of these.

B

So can I just add to that before we go Andrew in looking in great detail at one Congress.

B

Street's revised plans which show a 40-foot Building height that was achieved by picking.

B

Up an you know: seven eight nine inch credit for filling behind the building on the future, access.

B

Behind the building to Haven Court and then a lowering of the building of about two feet so.

B

I think it's a fair question, at least from the HTC's perspective. They were not at all concerned.

B

Or opposed to a 42 foot, nine inch building, which is what went to the board of adjustment.

B

uh I think it's reasonable to assume they would want to evaluate it. Should this pass, what Have.

B

We Lost in the process of of leaving it green is. Is it better with a shorter ground floor? uh Is it.

B

Better with six inches coming out of each floor, I don't know the answer to that, but I I don't think.

B

It's an easy one to think that it's a Panacea to be at 40 instead of 42, which is where he ended up.

A

Stated differently and just to build on that a little bit without being applications specific.

A

The current ordinance allows you to manipulate things and sort of play games with grade.

A

The proposed changes take that away it's less. You know you've got you can do. You can manipulate the.

A

Grade all you want, but it's the lowest of what you you had or what you're ending up with that.

A

Counts so have fun, but right it's it's pretty much more straightforward. Did you have a yeah.

E

um Nick just alluded to it and goes back to one of Craig's initial questions and.

E

Comments uh in regards to a lot too, of DSA Nick, you had said determining whether.

E

That's overlay versus overlay incentive and whether or not it fits into the vision plan.

E

And one of the incentives is that public era, um public use area or common area and.

E

So whether or not the parking lot of heinemann is commercial or residential, or if it's within.

E

The uses of the overlay District, how can we get ahead of that so that whether it's.

E

A lot to you at DSA or the parking lot so that it's not an issue in the future.

B

Or if I understand the question um so should lot to it of DSA come back up yes and they're in the.

E

Incentive overlay District, which they already are sure yeah. So then they no longer need their.

E

Public space or no, the incentive overlay district is actually the means in which the the community.

B

Obtains community space, so nothing is community space unless you're in the overlay district and.

B

The applicant opts into trading an additional story or 10 feet in height for community space, so.

B

It seems highly unlikely to me unless everything uh goes to hell in a handbasket for lot 3 and lot.

B

Six, the Lot 2 is already dedicated to the building permits associated with lot 3 and lot six. So it's.

B

Highly unlikely that that deal would fall apart, but it could, because anything can happen and if.

B

If the the applicant paid the city uh per the post-closure agreement to retain Lot, 2, Lot 2,.

B

Would become part of lot three most certainly through a merger and would be a 60-foot building.

B

Height because that's what's already on Bridge Street and that's where the frontage comes from.

B

Okay, and so now, with acknowledging that I feel as though heinemann is in that same discussion,.

E

Just by nature of how these changes will I think if heinemann's goes green and at the rear instead.

B

Of brown you're you're not affecting heinemann's development rights positively or negatively. If.

B

It was brown, then there would be an additional 10 feet of height. That would be added there and.

B

That's not the intention of it's. Certainly, this particular round of zoning I think my.

E

What's up Russ, this is more towards the use, so commercial versus residential or anything sorry.

B

The the yeah so we're not affecting any of the uses right uh in this set of zoning amendments.

B

And what I had just suggested we consider reconsidering, is the downtown overlay District.

B

Going as far as the parking lot on Hanover Street in front of heinemann and maybe pulling that back.

B

You you, it seems to me again an opinion of one that if a heinemann is redeveloped and.

B

That property on Foundry place is redeveloped that there it wouldn't be a bad idea to have commercial.

B

On the ground floor on Foundry place, but I think you don't want that up on Hanover Street.

B

So that that again goes the best question about okay, if not now, when and I think it's something we.

B

Should put in the nearer future than than distant to come back and revisit and a conversation as.

E

We have discussed and talked to the property owners and see see what's going on with lot six.

B

Lot three heinemann well yeah, even that The Rock Hanover and Hill Street neighborhoods Pearl Street.

E

Neighborhoods, of course, so that I think that was my more my consideration. More than anything.

A

Everybody pretty satisfied with where they're at do you want a short break to think about it.

A

Keep keep going. Is that no other board comments? Everybody understands everything. We're ready to.

A

Like I said next week, I think we're looking at probably looking for a vote on this.

A

Up or down as a recommendation to council and it could have amendments- some were discussed.

A

Tonight, I think some more may come up as the evening progresses, but I think that's what.

A

We're looking at so be prepared, yes, Jim, to make a request on Nick. Yes, would you mind.

C

Providing a list of the individual properties for the Civic Municipal Lots, absolutely I can do that.

C

Could I like by this Friday, please sure, there's 12 Municipal and nine Civic I'll get them to you and.

B

um Could you provide them to the whole planning board? Please yeah I'll give them to the chair.

C

And I, like your presentation, I like the slides, they're, easy to read than the handouts. Could that.

C

Be posted on this on the web page for this meeting. Yes, okay, that's that's it thanks. You also posted a.

A

3D model: oh yeah, for anybody interested. We have the 3D model, not only the one that was sent out.

B

To you, with the link on one Congress and I, believe that was the 40-foot version of the building. It's.

B

Really interesting: did anybody get a chance to look yeah, it's pretty cool. So that's that's a.

B

City owned product and we take the graphics file from the architect and and somebody at Public.

B

Works who's the gis coordinator coordinator, Jamie McCarty. He inserts it into the model.

B

And creates that scene, so you can walk around the project. I've got two more from Jamie today.

B

That I'll work with Beverly to get posted for one Reigns for what it's worth, because that's coming.

B

Back to the HTC, the HTC uses this regularly uh in order to judge these projects and then.

B

We have two Russell and I'm, not sure I'm. Looking for one more one, 161 deer will will be coming in.

B

So um yeah we'll work to make sure you guys can see them as well. I thought that was that.

C

Was fantastic that was job well done, takes a little while getting used to yeah flying.

C

Around but once you get the hang of it, it's really cool, it's very cool, any other questions.

B

We're all good and Greg, just I looked uh for the the railing yeah and that that's no longer.

B

In the Amendments yeah, it's not it's not in the amendments to change that, so it still has the two.

B

Times four, uh we should maybe consider okay bringing that uh next round. I just remember.

B

Reading, which one was that the railing needing to be no higher than four feet? It was in my last.

B

Version- and it just fell out because it was Food For Thought from six weeks ago to get into the.

B

Roof of pertinences I do think it makes sense for that to be relaxed. So you don't have every railing.

B

Eight feet back off the edge of the roof. So if you don't disagree with that, I will work on it.

A

Okay, as I mentioned at the beginning of the meeting, we'll have some public comment.

A

Up to two minutes per person, I'd ask that everybody please be respectful.

A

As I know, you will be anyway, but this is not a personal ordinance of anybody.

A

At this table or elsewhere, this is a proposed City Amendment and any comments you have technical.

A

Especially work things you heard tonight would be most appreciated so with that, and if, if you.

A

See me raising my hand you're getting close to the end of your two minutes and I'd like to stick to.

A

It because this is not a public hearing, it is a public meeting and I. Do would like to.

A

Hear if you do have public comment, so the first person who would like to speak if you'd like to.

A

I guess the microphone right back there at the podium yep? Okay, if no one wishes to speak.

A

And as the first Speaker knows name and address for the record, please hi I'm, Duncan, McCallum 536.

C

State Street, um some of the at least one of the features of the proposed changes. I like is the.

C

Measuring height off of existing grade I uh I think that's a great idea. I think that most.

C

Of you know that I'm, the one who's leading the charge against the 105 Bartlett Street project.

C

In the New Hampshire Supreme Court and that's the stunt that the developers pulled in that.

C

Case they first came before the Zoning Board of adjustment, asking for a variance over the 50-foot.

C

Height limit the zba said no, and so what they did. They came back the next year. They built up their.

C

The so-called new grade with the existing field- and they claimed they didn't even need a variance.

C

So I'm delighted with that change as a general matter, what what I want is I, don't think there.

C

Should be any raising of building Heights anywhere in the downtown area period? We've got enough big.

C

Build buildings down there, what I'd like to see is the height limits lowered frankly now, finally,.

C

We talk about the purpose of the. uh The purpose of this exercise is closing loopholes, but it seems to.

C

Me that you're opening one big loophole, which is by uh expressing height limits on these so-called.

C

Civic projects like the North Church, the moffatt, lad house, the John Paul Jones House. What I think.

C

The uh unintended consequence of that is going to be is you're, going to be able to you're going.

C

To allow developers to camouflage spot zoning they're going to say well, you know we're not.

C

uh We're just doing what everybody else is doing: the North Church and The Moffat, lad house and the.

C

Warner house, they all have height limits, we're not doing that much different. Well, how much chance do.

C

You think there's going to be that anybody's going to build on top of St John's, Church or John Paul.

C

Jones House or raise the raise the um raise the heights of any of those buildings. I see my time.

C

As drawing to to a close I wish, I could say more, but uh in two minutes that's the best. I can do.

C

But that's one of my main concerns with what is being proposed this evening. Thank you. Thank you.

C

Names of White household 777, Middle, Road unit 22., the questions I have.

C

Since I'm, not familiar with a lot of this zoning stuff is, are the changes going to be.

C

For the city and citizens benefit, or are they going to be for the developer and the builders.

C

Have higher and more mass in the construction and the other thing is a: are the these changes.

C

Going to infringe on the historical district on Heights and masks and I understand that and.

C

On the Wetland setbacks, I understand that on the Heights and mass it won't, but the.

C

Other thing is before the 80s and in the early 80s, when I got here, Christmas tree store and.

C

Home Depot that was Wetlands who, who designates what's a wetland and what's no longer a wetland.

C

That's the question I have for you, that's all I have thank you.

E

Good evening um page Trace 27 Hancock Street for the purposes of this evening, I am not speaking.

E

For myself, I am speaking for the organization that is the National Society of the colonial.

E

Dames of America and the state of New Hampshire euphemism, which I will continue with nscda NH.

E

um Located at 154 Market Street property owned by The National Society of the colonial Dames.

E

Goes from High Street, which is considered our upper Garden down to the water on the.

E

Other side of a series Strait, our property- is bisected by Market Street, but is not considered.

E

Bisected by serious Street, the property goes straight from Market to the water.

E

My question for you this evening, as I stated before earlier at the first.

E

Meeting regarding zoning changes is that we are a National Historic, Landmark property.

E

We take our charge very seriously and we're asking the planning board.

E

With all due respect to amend these changes to not include our property.

E

Part of it has already been sewn by the city. It's never come up. It's never been an issue.

E

So we see no reason that you need to fix something that isn't broken.

E

We take our charge seriously in this city and we ask you to take that and respect our zoning as.

E

It stands, part of the property is zoned. We are CD4 mixed use, part of it yes down by the water.

E

You have a small square anyway. I do ask you please to amend. Thank you. Thank you very much.

E

uh Pat Bagley 213, Pleasant um I just have a couple of questions.

E

And I also just want to say thank you for for doing this tonight. It's been very informative.

E

um I saw somewhere in the packet that I can't find. Now there was a mention of including a line.

E

um Along junkins Avenue um by parrot, yes, sorry, parrot, ablot and.

E

Also, there was mention of the North Cemetery at some point and I didn't really understand.

E

um Why, if you could explain that? Okay? Thank you. Oh wait.

B

E

Good evening Peter Huda 280 South Street.

E

um I also have questions I. Thank you for all the presentation, especially you Nick.

E

um My question would be um on the proposed I'm I'm struggling to follow what we have.

E

Been given online to what was presented tonight because it seems there's been changes in between.

E

So my questions are: can we have the final that you are going to discuss in a workshop.

E

Or at the beatings put online so we can follow. My next question is um we haven't.

E

Actually defined or put any kind of restrictions on public or Civic places in 400 years.

E

Why are we doing it now? My other question is I'm. Looking at the map of proposed, I have two.

E

Different maps are proposed here, and it seems that things are different from one to the other.

E

And for just a regular resident looking at this, I took and went back and actually labeled um each.

E

Place that was discussed, and my question comes back of why, on this new, um that the latest version.

E

Are we looking at changing what we have just above the McIntyre? We have a green line and we have a.

E

Brown line, that was not there in the original, and my question is: why are we doing that and the other.

E

Questions I would have, are we have new green lines around the worth lot and the Bridge Street lot and.

E

If you could help me there to understand why, and why are we doing this now? Thank you. Thank you.

E

Eight by ten glossy photographs, as always.

E

E

Elizabeth brighter property owner 159, McDonough, Street I thought I had three minutes so I'm gonna.

E

Have to do the abridge version first I want to let you know that I made mistakes on my letter, because.

E

It was two o'clock in the morning and that's what happens when you get less than 10 hours to read.

E

Something but anyway um so on the corner of Bow Street and St John's Church, Not, Bow, Street and.

E

South Church I would like to suggest that it'd be yellow because the parking lot is already yellow.

E

And the cemetery is, should probably be yellow and the bridge the building itself. The church could be.

E

Orange or green, but if you left it yellow it would encourage people to to keep the church because.

E

They would have higher Heights. um It doesn't piece of paper that I gave you. It shows the Civic ones.

E

And I think it would be perfectly reasonable to make the Civic one CD4, but I highlight well I.

E

Circled four of them and those I thought should be cd4l1, because that's what they're? Next to the.

E

Only one that's kind of open for debate actually is the um Temple, because the temple is next to.

E

Cd4L1, but it also has CD4, so maybe leave that one c84, but the other three in my mind, should be cd4l1.

E

In regards to Foundry place, I included the copies of how those overlay districts run up close and.

E

Personal, a little bigger, so you can see them one than what I presented I'd like it, that you did not.

E

Move Foundry Place forward on the side opposite of the parking garage, so the parking garage side can.

E

Stay the way they use, but the park the side which connects to Hill Street I'd like you to leave it.

E

Alone: I'd like you to send it back to the land use committee I'd like you to notify Butters and do it.

E

As quickly as possible, members of the Islington Creek neighborhood met with Juliet Walker in 2019.

E

To deal with all of that crazy zoning down there, especially those two overlay districts,.

E

um Covet hit Juliet left, it was asked repeatedly to be brought forward and nobody did so I'd like.

E

You to not leave Brown on that side. Under any circumstances, I saw your hand go up and we'd also.

E

Like to have Hill Street addressed as quickly as possible, so we'd like that to be added as a.

E

Stipulation for The Foundry Place stuff. Thank you. Thank you.

A

Everybody else.

A

Anybody online tonight go ahead.

A

There will be a public hearing next week by the way continuation of Prayer public.

A

Hearing people online but nobody's raised their hands yet. Does anybody online need two minutes.

A

Nobody will be speaking from online, then.

A

Nick, did you want to address some of the questions? Sure I'll do my best.

B

So the first Speaker had an issue of raising building Heights downtown other than the the.

B

Five foot increase on one property: um there should be no raising of building.

B

Heights downtown and that made I think very clear: um I I don't understand the spot. Zone.

B

Height height loophole, but that's something we can all I'll go back and revisit what we said.

B

um It's important that you know St John's and the Baptist Church. There are parking lots that.

B

Are in these Civic uh districts that could be redeveloped and again there's no major urgency.

B

Of creating guard rails, if people are perfectly comfortable with Civic properties, having no guard.

B

Rails and can do whatever they want in respect to dimensional controls. Then you leave it the way.

B

It is I mean that that that's what that's where we're at right now, there are no height controls.

B

And no dimensional controls today, so the idea was to to use the CD4 and to to Liz bratter's comment.

B

I, don't I, don't know that you need the cd4l1 to we're, not changing the zoning map. These are.

B

Still going to be Civic properties, it's only a reference to a dimensional control of the CD4. The.

B

Map will not change so hang on I'm going uh who the second speaker was asking about whose benefit.

B

We, we obviously believe the benefits are to the to the people of Portsmouth, the city of Portsmouth.

B

And I think there's in, in contrast to a five foot increase on one property on high and Haven. There's.

B

A substantial decrease in development rights by changing the definition of Building height to not.

B

Game the system by filling or cutting so you're, probably talking a a, not insignificant amount of.

B

Real estate that will be lowered or diminished by changing how Building height is calculated.

B

um Which, which is the the op the direction I think the speaker was intimating. We should be going.

B

um It doesn't matter if a street, you know, breaks a property or not it's whether there's Public.

B

Access, for example, on Siri Street, it is a publicly accessible street from one end to the other, with.

B

Utilities in a fire, Access Lane, uh so that that's why it's on here and I'll look again but I I, don't.

B

Believe any part of The Moffat lad is CD4. uh It's a Civic District, including the kitchen of the four.

B

House or former ore house, but I'll go back and take a look at that. That would be an inconsistency.

B

If part of it was not Civic but was owned by a non-profit uh in open uh to the General Public.

B

So I'll give that another pass the perid AV lot and the Bridge Street lot and the all.

B

The municipal properties, which are there, are 12 of them and they're highly varied from Parks to.

B

Cemeteries to parking lots, obviously the ability to build in a cemetery is pretty limited. It might.

B

Make sense, given two speakers that brought it up, that the cemeteries be limited to a single.

B

Story building only because you sometimes will get a vault building, but there's not likely to.

B

Be anything happen in those locations, whether it's St John's or out at the North, Cemetery or Union, so.

B

I I again I, don't think, there's magic if one story is a more appropriate way to handle the cemeteries.

B

I think that that could make sense. The parking lots are obviously, as we've seen in the last 10.

B

To 30 years they they convert to other uses and we own all of these. So that's not an easy thing.

B

To do but the the cities looked at some of these for parking structures, especially the worth lot.

B

And Bridge Street and paradav hasn't happened, but it's really important for people to realize.

B

That Municipal properties have a blanket exemption just like Civic. They don't have to follow anything.

B

So this this gives at least the citizens a sense of hey. It would be appropriate if, if you were in.

B

This General guideline of a number versus leave it off the map and you do whatever you think.

B

Is appropriate and let's do a 600 space garage, that's six or seven stories, because we want to.

B

Want to maximize parking, it would be harder to do that if the building height suggested that 40 was.

B

More appropriate than building another Foundry place at Parrot Ave that so again, no real magic.

B

There's still exempt under state law city-owned properties, but it's meant to to give some guidance.

B

To the city, should they ever change the the land use on those parking lots again nobody's asking.

B

Nobody's doing it's just trying to make the map be consistent from one end of the city to the.

B

Other in respect to the character, districts, I'm, not aware of anything changing relating to the.

B

Mcintyre so I'm going to have to look at what the speaker is referring to there's certainly.

B

No uh idea of changing any of the heights as part of this amendment for the McIntyre, so I'll give.

B

That another look there at the document that was submitted last week is exactly what's been.

B

Presented I haven't made any changes to what's been presented. I did change the order of one.

B

Item from the document, the front lot line moved to the front from the back, but this should be 100.

B

Percent consistent the PowerPoint with what was submitted a week ago so Nick. If I could just jump.

D

In there, because this comes up sometimes that we we post the documents, the general rule I- give to.

D

Staff is that the documents themselves cannot change and the presentation can be posted at a.

D

Later date, but it can never introduce anything that is not already in the document. It is just.

D

A sort of a guide to help walk you through the documents, so there should be nothing tonight.

D

That was not clearly posted last week and that's General. We always try because we do get requests.

D

To after we present the presentation post, that gives us a little time after the documents are.

D

Posted to practice to hone the presentation it takes some of it's complicated and I think it.

D

Takes a little work, I think Nick did a good job tonight in trying to sometimes getting a.

D

Complicated concept presented in a simple way is a hard thing to do so. I think you did a good job.

C

hmm The documents or the presentations are getting posted to the same site, where we.

C

Go whenever whenever we're asked to do that, we do that. Sometimes we get them loaded ahead of time. If.

D

They're done, like I, think we did with the public involvement summer report, but tonight we had a.

D

Request we will post it to the site as well to the archive site where yes, this meeting? Yes, absolutely.

C

You'd be willing to take one Congress Street off the out of the ordinance.

B

It's not for me to do that. You know if the city council doesn't want to do that.

B

Doesn't want to adopt that they won't well, but it's ours to present the city council.

C

So if the planning board says that we'd like to take it out, would you take it out.

C

I'm going to do well, that's that's a this! This boat, this board, if you made a motion to take.

A

It out and the board voted to remove that you sent to the council with a recommendation just.

C

Trying to speed speed up his process if he took it out before next week, we could vote without.

C

Having to slice and dice a 10. actually I wanted to say one thing about one Congress Street in my.

A

Opinion I've said this before I'm going to say it again. That was a mistake. It's not adding something.

A

It's something that should have been in there. It's a five foot difference. You usually have.

A

The same thing across streets and public places it did, we didn't have that because Nick mapped.

A

Like resilient properties in a day, and so he you know as marker slipped on one, that's my opinion.

A

But it's, it is a correction in my, in my view, it's not giving anybody anything.

A

It's fixing something that should have been fixed. That's my opinion.

A

And we we can debate it, I, don't see it as needing to come off I, just don't like the Optics of it.

C

From a public standpoint, I hear it appropriate to debate that at the meeting and not have to work.

A

Thank you any other comments. Questions can the other generic question, I guess with relation to.

C

How zoning has changed in general? Does any proposed zoning change need to be approved.

C

By the planning board first before it goes to city council, or can they take or not take our.

C

Recommendation and change zoning on the road. Our zoning requires the planning board to make.

A

A recommendation to the council: it's a council action two. If the council could do it, Council can.

A

Can come up with some things like it did with affordable housing, and you know that sort of.

A

Thing that they did earlier this year and give a Direction they want to see something changed.

A

About this, which they did, these came about a little bit differently, but they come to the.

A

Planning board for the planning board to make a recommendation Council. It's a council action to.

A

Adopt or not in towns it's a different process and has nothing to do with us. I'll explain it if.

A

You want on a sideline conversation. Okay. Is it, however, possible for a for a citizen to just go.

E

To to request it directly of the city council of zoning change, no coming here at all, you can do an.

A

Amendment but there's still, our zoning ordinance requires planning board to make a comment on a.

A

Proposed revision, it's a recommendation. It's like a Conservation Commission recommendation to us.

A

But that's that's not true for site plan rules right, there's, plenty more to complete authority.

C

Over site plan it does versus zoning. Is that true and subdivision rules? Yes, quasi-judicial.

D

Versus the legislative function of the planning board and the legislative function, is uh uh it.

D

Goes to the council, never even goes to city council correct. You need to talk into the.

C

Microphone they're having a hard time hearing it site plan, never goes to uh city council, correct.

A

A

Thank you very much. Everybody. Thank you. We'll see you next week meeting is adjourned.