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From YouTube: Finance Committee Meeting 11/28/22
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B
D
B
M
as
in
Mom,
thank
you,
okay,
anybody
else.
Okay,
can
we
get
a
motion
to
approve
the
consent
agenda,
as
amended
so
moved?
Second
Motion
in
a
second:
do
I
have
to
do
a
roll
call
on
this?
B
Okay,
all
those
all
those
in
favor
aye.
Anybody
opposed
anybody.
Abstaining
that
motion
passes
as
well.
Okay,
we
have,
as
you
all
probably
have
taken
note.
We
have
a
number
of
things
off
the
agenda.
We
have
an
audit
update,
an
economic
update
and
a
Midtown
moving
forward.
Update,
I
I
would
like
us
to
see
if
we
can
do
all
of
this
in
two
hours.
This
is
we'll
we'll
set
a
goal
and
so
I'm
thinking.
B
If
we
and
I
and
again
we'll
see
how
this
works,
it's
not
a
hard
stop,
but
if
we
can
to
the
extent
we
have
counselors
with
a
lot
of
questions,
if
we
can
just
be
cognizant
of
how
much
time
your
questions
are
taking-
and
maybe
we
can,
you
know-
maybe
do
five
minutes
per
counselor
and
then,
if
we're
looking
good
on
time,
we'll
go
through
again
for
a
second
round,
but
just
trying
to
keep
us
disciplined
and
paying
attention
to
how
long
we
are
taking
with
staff
and
ourselves
really
see
how
efficient
we
can
be
tonight.
B
So
with
that
said,
I
will
go
to
our
first
presentation,
which
is
from
Emily
Oster
our
finance
director
and
Ricky
bejarano,
our
chief
accounting
officer
on
the
FY
21
audit
update
and
welcome
Mr
bejerano.
B
Yeah
I
think
because
of
Zoom
you
have
to
have
a
mic.
Yes,
I
think
we're
live
up
here.
Here's
our
able-bodied
tech
people
coming
to
our
rescue.
Thank
you.
E
You
did
A
very
wise
thing.
He
muted
it
before
I
came
up
good
evening.
Madam
chair
members
of
the
committee
I'm
happy
to
report.
The
audit
is
rolling
forward.
Actually,
both
audits
are
rolling
forward.
We
meet
with
CLA
the
Consultants,
the
accounting
Consultants
one
every
Monday
morning
at
8,
30,
Sharp
and
thus
far.
There
are
about
three
quarters
of
the
way
completed
with
reviewing
all
of
the
data
and
information
and
worksheets
for
21.
That.
F
E
Already
been
done
by
the
previous
Consultants,
so
that's
moving
forward
quickly.
This
week
we
have
Mona
Drake
continues
to
work
with
utilities
on
documentation
and
whatnot,
so
that
we're
audit
ready
tomorrow,
we'll
have
an
additional
staff.
Member
from
Albuquerque
CLA
working
on
the
2022
sifa
at
the
fiscal
year,
2022
sifa,
the
2000
21,
is
ready
to
be
turned
over
to
the
Auditors
or
audit.
E
Our
director,
Emily
Oster,
has
been
working
with
Clarence
from
Romero
our
cash
control
officer
on
gasbee
77
disclosures
to
turn
over
to
the
county
of
Santa
Fe,
and
that
disclosure
entails
tax
abatements
as
a
result
of
irbs
she's,
also
working
on
a
gas
b61
component
units
pertaining
to
bdd
and
swama,
and
those
are
additional
tests
and
disclosures,
and
also
gasbi
84,
which
dictates
how
we
report
fiduciary
activities.
E
We
met
with
CRI
on
1122.
They
will
begin
coordinating
this
week
with
CLA
CRI.
Are
the
external
Auditors
and
they'll
be
working
both
directly
with
CLA,
as
well
as
in
conjunction
with
us,
in
a
coordinated
effort
to
get
both
audits
completed
as
quickly
as
possible,
as
I've
previously
mentioned,
as
they're
working
on
21
they're
rolling
into
22
wherever
possible,
so
that
the
audits
are
completed
as
expeditiously
as
possible?
With
that
I
stand
for
any
questions
so.
B
Just
as
a
little
background
or
base
level
information,
can
you
briefly
talk
about
what
gabs
gabsby
Gatsby
is
and
I'll
just
let
the
committee
know
that
we
I
have
talked
with
staff
about
doing
a
larger
presentation
on
this,
but
since
you
brought
it
up
and
referred
to
several
of
them,
perhaps
you
can
just
give
us
a
quick
quick.
What
what
it
is
that
that
is,
and
maybe
help
me
with
the
pronunciation
so.
E
B
Great,
so
we
we
will
be
getting
a
presentation,
more
in-depth
presentation
from
our
finance
director
on
this
I
think
we
have
slated
that
for
Jan
or
January
one
of
our
January
meetings,
depending
on
the
number
of
contracts
that
are
coming
through.
But
thank
you
appreciate
that
other
questions
from
the
committee
councilwoman
Villarreal.
D
E
Actually,
it's
she's
reviewing
our
the
gasby
standards
that
pertain
to
that
Gatsby
issues,
statements
and
standards,
and
that
would
be
our
director
Emily
Oster
was
infinitely
qualified
she's,
a
CPA
she's,
actually
reviewed
and
audited.
All
this
work
before
and
she's
doing
that,
so
that
we're
in
compliance
with
everything
that
we
need
to
be
for
for
those
types
of
activities.
D
Thank
you,
and
maybe
director
Oster
could,
could
you
remind
us,
is
that
various
irbs,
or
is
there
one
specific
one
that
you're
reviewing
now
specifically.
E
A
Chair
and
councilor
verriel,
there
are
two
irbs
currently
that
the
city
has
that
are
active,
one
is
for
Ridgetop
Road
and
the
other
is
for
the
El
Castillo
El
Sequoia
property.
A
So
what
we're
doing
is
we're
reviewing
those
agreements
and
the
gaspi
77
standard
is
a
disclosure
standard
that
promotes
transparency
regarding
those
types
of
IRB
agreements
and
the
state
audit
rule
actually
goes
a
little
bit
beyond
the
Gatsby
standard
in
terms
of
what's
required
to
be
disclosed,
particularly
to
other
government
entities
that
are
impacted
by
those
tax
abatement
agreements.
So
the
entities
that
are
impacted
in
those
cases
are
Santa
Fe,
county,
the
Community
College,
the
public
schools
and
the
city
right.
Okay,.
A
B
And
if
you
could,
just
so
just
again,
I
think
for
the
public,
those
listening
to
the
committee.
The
reason
why
the
Community
College
the
public
schools,
the
county,
are
all
interested
parties
in
our
irbs
is
because
it
involves
property,
tax
revenue,
correct
and
I.
Don't
know
if
you
want
to
add
to
that.
A
Yes,
Madam
chair,
that's
correct
what
the
IRB
does
is.
It
removes
those
properties
from
the
tax
roll
for
the
duration
of
the
IRB
and
in
the
case
of
el
Sequoia
there
is
a
significant
payment
in
lieu
of
taxes,
that's
being
made
by
El
Castillo
to
all
four
entities
to
essentially
make
them
whole
for
the
property
tax
revenue
that
they
aren't.
Collecting
Ridgetop
road
is
a
little
bit
different
structure,
but
there
are
payments
in
lieu
of
taxes
as
well
and
as
part
of
that
IRB
I.
B
Just
think,
it's
helpful
to
understand
why
those
other
organ,
governmental
or
parties
would
be
interested
in
the
business
of
a
tax
Tool
that
the
city
has
used
so,
okay
other
questions
from
the
committee
on
the
audit
being
none.
Thank
you
very
much
for
being
here.
Thank.
B
G
B
We
have
Riley
white
and
my
information
says:
well,
you
have
a
UNM
email,
but
it's
you're
leading
with
an
LLC.
So
maybe
you
can
give
us
your
your
background
and,
of
course,
you're
a
fairly
regular
visit
visitor
to
this
committee
and
providing
us
financial
information
about
the
world
around
us
so
that
we
can
properly
budget
and
act
in
our
capacity.
So
are
you
doing
a
you.
G
In
my
I,
I
can
enact
them,
but
they
might
be
easier.
It
might
be
easier
for
everyone
if
I
have
access
to
size.
I
do
have
another
copy
here,
if
that's
easier,
but
yeah.
B
B
G
All
right
well
introduce
thank
you
so
much
for
having
me
here
today,
distinguished
members
of
the
council,
as
well
as
citizens
of
Santa
Fe.
It's
a
great
pleasure
to
be
here.
My
name
is
Dr
Riley
white
I'm,
an
associate
professor
of
finance
and
Associate
Dean
at
the
University
of
New
Mexico
Anderson
School
of
Management.
G
G
In
addition,
you
know
to
about
15
years
of
Economic
and
financial
experience,
modeling
and
Banking
and
in
other
capacities,
as
well
as
in
Academia
I,
also
assist
in
budget
forecasting,
modeling
making
and
making
analyzes
based
on
macroeconomic
conditions,
so
in
essence,
and
sort
of
one
of
the
big
things
I
want
to
highlight
to
you
is
that
up
ahead
of
us
in
the
next
year
or
so,
there
is
going
to
be
a
substantial
economic
change.
G
It's
hard
to
observe
you
look
at
data
that
we
have
currently
things
look
pretty
good,
but
the
foundation,
and
when
we
approach
this
and
you've
read
the
news
before
the
indications
for
a
recession
are
increasingly
strong.
So
there's
three
big
principles
behind
a
recession.
One
is
that
it
depends
on
it's
more
complex
than
merely
sort
of
that
nber
to
consecutive
quarters
of
negative
economic
growth.
It
has
to
affect
consumers,
it
has
to
affect
the
labor
market
and
it
has
to
affect
corporations.
G
What
we're
seeing
is
if
we
look
ahead
at
the
data
going
ahead
in
the
next
year
or
two,
a
lot
of
our
indicators
have
sort
of
fallen
off
a
cliff
with
regards
to
those
primary
economic
conditions.
So
it's
highly
likely
we're
going
to
be
entering
a
recessionary
environment
next
year.
H
B
And
is
there
any
way
to
email
it
to
the
committee
members
while
we're
yes
and
then,
of
course,
yeah
that'd
be
great.
Thank
you.
G
B
Any
any
chance
we
can
there's
the
big
screen
there.
We
go.
G
G
So,
let's
think
about
this,
we've
been
battling
inflation,
but
we
have
an
incredibly
strong
job
market.
It
also
means
that,
right
now,
what
we're
looking
at
is
Essence
one
of
the
things
that
Federal
Reserve,
for
instance,
has
hit
the
news
very
heavily
this
year,
they've
raised
rates
faster
than
we've
seen
them
raise
rates
before,
and
they
have
one
rate
that
they
raise.
That's
overnight,
lending
to
large
Banks,
that's
called
the
discount
rate,
but
it
has
a
ripple
effect
for
the
rest
of
the
economy.
G
So
what
happens
is
because
we
have
such
a
strong
job
market
and
inflation
remains
High.
The
FED
will
continue
to
be
particularly
aggressive
regarding
monetary
policy.
It
is
likely
they
will
pivot,
it
is
likely
they
will
change,
but
it
looks
like
we
have
at
least
one
or
possibly,
two
more
sessions
of
additional
rate
increases
coming
down
the
line.
So
what
this
means
we
have,
our
unemployment
rate
has
matched
a
half
century
low
in
September
it
ticked
up
a
little
bit
in
October.
G
Higher
rates
are
likely
going
to
take
a
toll
on
jobs
in
2023
and
I'll.
Explain
why
real
real
estate
prices
are
going
to
be
adversely
impacted,
as
we
kind
of
seen
a
leveling
off
in
this
market
due
to
higher
mortgage
rates
in
a
weakening
economic
picture?
So
if
we
look
ahead
at
this,
you
have
it
currently.
On
the
left
hand,
side,
this
is
a
whole
slew
of
economic
data
that
I
won't
go
into
detail.
All
you
have
to
know
from
this
is
that
green
is
good
and
red
is
bad.
G
The
level
right
now
right
now
very
strong
job
market,
very
strong
data
coming
out
right
now,
but
when
we
look
at
the
leading
indicators,
a
lot
of
this
indicates
stable
or
worsening
conditions
for
a
lot
of
the
economy.
So
when
we
think
about
this,
it
feels
like
and
I
said
this
before
the
job
Market's
strong,
but
it
doesn't
always
feel
that
way,
depending
on
who
you're
talking
to.
One
of
the
reasons
that
is
is
that
the
nature
of
jobs
has
shifted,
particularly
here
in
Santa
Fe,
a
city
that
is
heavily
reliant
on
tourism.
G
Indus
on
the
tourism
industry,
Leisure
and
hospitality
is
a
particularly
strong
sector.
Those
jobs
have
not
come
back.
That's
at
the
very
bottom
here
this
is
a
chart
of
all
the
employment
change
from
the
industry
by
industry
since
February
2020,
and
so
we
can
go
all
the
way
way
back
since
the
beginning
of
the
of
the
pandemic
and
I
found
that
a
lot
of
those
jobs
haven't
returned
the
same
way,
but
that
means
that
a
lot
of
businesses
still
have
been
adjusting
they've
been
doing
more
with
less
so
to
speak.
G
On
the
other
hand,
we've
seen
where
have
we
seen
job
growth,
in
other
things,
professional
and
business
services,
a
wide
sweeping
category
covering
a
large
number
of
employment
that
deals
with
a
lot
of
logistics
and
fundamental
corporate
questions,
transportation
and
warehousing
supply
chain
supply
chain
supply
chains.
You
need
Transportation,
you
need
warehouse
and
the
economy
has
adjusted
and
more
people
are
employed
here
than
they
were
in
other
places.
In
the
meantime,
we've
since
added
jobs,
despite
a
strong
dollar,
we
have
added
manufacturing
jobs,
as
we've
continued
to
onshore.
G
Now,
when
it
comes
down
to
other
things,
job
growth
overall
has
remained
strong,
but
notice
that
the
a
tendency
for
additional
jobs,
the
rate
of
job
growth,
is
decreasing.
This
is
okay.
The
last
jobs
we
had
in
October
was
still
really
good
in
normal
times.
However,
when
we
look
at
a
head
and
look
at
how
this
will
affect
the
revenue
revenues
for
Santa
Fe
as
we
approach
next
year,
we
have
to
be
careful
about
this.
This
metric
jobs
are
okay
now,
but
the,
but
the
tide
is
turning
and
I'll.
Give
you
a
few
examples.
G
Why
number
one
Canary
in
the
economic,
coal
mine
you've
seen
the
news
on
this
already
Tech
sector
layoffs
across
the
bay
area,
and
it's
not
just
Elon
Musk
with
Twitter,
and
all
of
that
other
Shenanigans.
We're
talking
about
meta,
we're
talking
about
coinbase,
Shopify,
Netflix,
Microsoft,
Apple.
The
tech
sector
is
very
responsive
to
economic
conditions
and
economic
conditions
going
forward.
It's
our
most
most
growth
oriented
sector.
What
it
indicates
is
these
large
entities
are
cutting
back
jobs
in
response
to
a
worsening
economic
Outlook.
Investment
costs
are
increasing.
G
Consumer
spending
that
existed
during
at
the
beginning
of
the
pandemic
has
diminished
in
technology
is
often
the
most
forward-weighted
sector,
but
it
responds
very
intensely
to
changes
in
economic
conditions,
and
we
expect
this
will
spread
in
the
coming
months.
One
thing
aspect
and
the
big
you
know
the
big
thing
we
have
to
consider
as
well
is
inflation.
We
are
right.
The
Rate
rates
are
rising
to
control
inflation.
When
the
FED
raises
rates.
G
What
they
do
is
they
increase
the
cost
of
investment
that
chokes
off
the
money
supply
and
helps
prevent
inflation
from
going
up
further,
but
we
noticed
that
one
thing
to
propel
with
our
inflation
over
the
long
term
that
needs
to
happen
is
wage
growth.
Wage
growth
has
not
been
there
at
a
level
that
has
exceeded,
or
even
been
close
to,
exceeding
inflationary
expectations.
G
As
you
can
see
here,
we
saw
wage
growth
increase
and
that's
pretty
good
following
the
pandemic,
but
overall
we've
actually
seen
that
it's
actually
started
declining
in
the
last
two
BLS
reports
from
the
Bureau
of
Labor,
Statistics
or
data
on
wage
growth
indicates
that
it's
actually
moving
downward
and,
although
there's
some
anecdotal
evidence
to
suggest,
and
certainly
varies
from
industry
to
Industry
in
Leisure
and
hospitality,
they
sell
double
digit
wage
growth
in
response
to
labor
shortages.
Overall,
these
are
not
numbers
that
are
encouraging
for
lasting
long-term
inflation.
However,
inflation
does
look
like
it's
peaked.
G
I
apologize
for
the
incorrect
contraction
energy
costs
spiked
at
the
beginning
of
the
Russian
invasion
of
the
Ukraine.
That's
priced
into
the
market.
Rent
and
real
estate
prices
are
starting
to
level
off
in
Decline
I'll.
G
Go
into
that
in
a
second
Goods,
inflation
continues
to
fall,
wage
growth
is
slowing
which
actually
puts
a
cap
on
service
sector
inflation
in
significantly
higher
federal
funds
rate
are
making
Investments
more
expensive
overall,
and
the
FED
in
response
to
inflation
has
moved
faster
to
tame
inflation
than
it
has
in
any
other
in
any
other
cycle
that
we
can
compare
to
where
they
were
raising
rates.
So
does
this
mean
the
FED
will
slow
rate
increases,
because
that
is
a
big
deal
when
we
think
about
how
big
or
how
bad
a
recession
might
be?
G
And
the
answer
is
we
don't
know,
we
think
they
will
start
slowing
fairly
fairly
soon,
but
it
comes
down
to
when
the
pivot
happens
and
how
it
happens
and
they're
going
to
be
responding
to
the
economic
data
in
hand
as
you've
noticed
already.
Higher
mortgage
rates
across
the
board
has
been
slowing.
Price
growth,
but
Supply
is
continued
to
be
is
continues
to
be
limited
not
only
in
Santa
Fe,
but
in
many
areas
of
the
country
and
even
with
Supply
being
limited.
That
means
real
estate
prices
can
maintain
a
relatively
high
value.
G
However,
higher
property
values
lead
to
higher
property
tax
revenue,
but
subject
to
New
Mexico
State
valuation
caps
of
three
percent
per
year,
housing
in
general,
making
this
more
real.
What
that
mean
was
if
you
were
buying
a
house
beginning
in
January
2021,
when
mortgage
rates
were
2.65
and
you
were
buying
a
house
in
October
of
2022
when
they
peaked
at
seven
percent.
The
difference
in
your
monthly
payment
would
be
over
eleven
hundred
dollars.
That
is
a
huge
sum
of
money
and
I
can't
reiterate
that
and
how
tangible
those
effects
are
in
the
real
estate
market.
G
Now
2023
is
going
to
be
characterized
by
lower
demand,
slower
building
permits,
fewer
sales,
unsustainable
price
increases
that
we've
seen
the
last
couple
years
will
slow
down.
However,
it's
all
about
supply
and
demand,
and
if
inventory
remains
low
prices
might
be
able
to
maintain
a
relatively
high
amount.
One
thing,
often
in
the
news
has
been
rent
rent
is
very
expensive
here
in
Santa,
Fe
rent
is
expensive
everywhere,
but
when
we
think
about
relative
to
New
Mexico
Santa
Fe
is
some
of
the
most
expensive
rents.
G
Now,
when
we
look
at
data
for
this,
you
can
find
data
from
a
number
of
sources
rents
in
this
example
I'm
using
data
from
a
couple,
different
sources,
apartments.com
lists,
rental
growth
and
one
encouraging
note
is
even
though
we've
seen
rental
growth
in
Santa
Fe
prices
increase
about
22
and
a
half
percent
since
the
beginning
of
the
pandemic.
Year
month
to
month,
growth
has
kind
of
leveled
off
and
actually
declined
slightly
into
October.
That
does
not
make
up
for
the
increase
of
22
percent,
but
it
is
encouraging
also,
on
the
right
hand,
side.
G
Your
experience
may
vary
depending
if
we're
talking
about
a
one,
two
bedroom
or
three
bedroom
unit,
larger
units
in
particular
have
kind
of
flatlined
in
Santa
Fe,
while
demand
has
remained
strong
in
one
in
two
bedroom
units
and
overall,
when
we
think
about
how
we
can
approach
this
or
things
to
look
for,
especially
in
the
coming
year,
a
recession
is
likely
and
a
recession
is
likely,
but
the
severity
of
the
downturn
remains
unknown
and
I
was
looking
at
some
recent
economic
indicators
released
this
week.
G
One
of
them,
when
we
talk
about
those
three
pillars-
corporate
labor-
and
you
know
we
think
about
the
effect
it
has
on
the
on
the
economy
as
a
whole.
We
noticed
that
one
of
them,
the
Global
Credit
impulse
index,
is
a
lagging
indicator
of
recessions
that
fell
significantly.
That's
likely
means
that
earnings
per
share
of
Corporations
will
likely
Fall,
first
and
second
quarter
of
next
year.
G
Another
indicator
looking
at
job
market,
that's
tied
to
unemployment
rates,
fines,
and
this
is
based
off
of
the
10
leading
economic
indicators
from
the
from
one
of
our
large.
You
know,
economic
organizations
that
that
that
has
gone
negative,
and
that
indicates
that
sometime
in
Spring,
we'll
likely
see
substantial
effects
to
the
job
market
that
will
last
testing
to
2024,
but
into
this
sense
of
how
severe
it
will
be.
G
It
will
depend
entirely
on
the
response
from
Congress
the
response
from
government,
the
response
from
the
Federal
Reserve
and
the
way
that
they
handle
it,
and
that's
going
to
be
a
big
question
going
forward.
However,
when
we
think
about
how
it
impacts
Santa
Fe,
when
we
think
about
cities
and
municipalities
in
general,
they
don't
act
like
other
things.
They
don't
act
like
corporations,
you
don't
see
an
immediate
effect
day
after
day.
G
You
see
a
lag
defect
and
I
want
to
point
to
a
paper
that
dates
back
to
2014,
that
study
the
big
recession,
the
the
Great
Recession
of
2008-2009,
and
in
this
paper
they
found
that
municipalities
often
had
the
biggest
effects
or
finally
reached
the
nadir
of
of
the
amount
of
revenues
they
were
to
bring
in
in
2012..
It
took
about
three
years
for
the
impacts
to
be
fully
realized
in
a
recession
that
is
an
important
factor
and
for
Santa
Fe
in
particular,
GRT
gross
receipts
tax
is
likely
to
be
the
most
responsive.
G
It's
always
the
most
responsive
to
macroeconomic
conditions
as
people,
especially
what
the
good
news
is,
because
the
job
market
has
remained
strong.
Consumer
spending
has
remained
strong,
but
there
are
some
warning
signs
on
the
horizon.
The
growth
of
Consumer
Credit
in
the
last
few
months
has
been
substantial,
higher,
auto
loans,
greater
credit
card
debt,
higher
mortgages,
and
this
combined
household
debt
is
going
to
bring
drag
on
spending
as
we
approach
2023
and
2024..
G
The
city's
collection
of
new
revenue
streams,
internet
sales,
cannabis
likely,
will
help
offset
some
of
the
downward
risks
associated
with
lower
retail
sales
and
overall,
it
is
something
to
consider
Lodgers
tax,
of
course,
particularly
hard
hit
in
the
2020
recession.
Future
recessions
will
not
have
the
same
targeted
impact
on
the
tourism
industry.
The
2020
recession
was
uniquely
bad
because
of
the
nature
of
those
closures
and
how
we
were
able
to
respond
property.
Tax
revenue
will
continue
to
be
steady,
but
there
are
some
risks.
G
Associated
to
this,
the
Federal
Reserve
will
continue
to
increase
rates
for
one
or
two
additional
Cycles
inflation,
Supply
chains.
Geopolitical
risks
remain
crucially
important
to
end
unknown
and
I
can't
underestimate
the
unknowns
here,
and
they
are
substantial
and
again
weakening
job
market
in
2023.
How
big
and
how
bad
that
depends.
That
depends
on
the
response.
That
depends.
G
If
there
will
be,
you
know
if
there
are
stimuli
and
ways
out
of
it,
it
depends
on
what
the
nation
as
a
whole
will
Cobble
together
in
response
to
more
adverse
economic
conditions,
but
be
wary
of
the
headwinds
ahead,
be
conscientious
as
you
approach
your
financial
deliberations
and
yes
and
I.
That
is
the
essence
of
everything.
I
wanted
to
cover
briefly.
Does
anyone
have
any
questions
that
I
may
offer.
B
Thank
you,
questions
from
the
committee.
B
I
have
a
couple,
but
I
don't
know:
have
we
gotten
an
email
with
this
yet
director.
B
Coming
to
councilwoman
Via.
D
Real.
Thank
you,
madam
chair.
Thank
you.
Dr
White
appreciate
seeing
you
in
person
and
also
your
expertise
and
just
learning
more
about
Trends
I.
D
Have
a
question:
I
guess:
I
guess
I
always
think
about
when
you
give
us
a
presentation
and
then
what
that
leads
us
to
think
about.
As
we
start
the
budgeting
process
and
what
to
be
cautious
of
and
I
guess
I
is
there?
Are
there
any
insights
that
you
would
like
to
share
with
us
as
we're
going
into
our
budget
season
for.
G
Next
year,
absolutely-
and
thank
you
so
much
councilor
I,
appreciate
the
question
and
I
appreciate
the
perspective
from
which
it's
posed
as
you
approach
the
budgetary
season,
the
thing
is
is
even
though
you're
coming
off
a
very
good,
a
very
good,
strong
economy
to
be
just
cautious
about
that
approach,
and
that's
why
going
forward-
and
you
know
in
my
discussions
with
the
financial
office
and
looking
at
as
they
met
and
looked
at
the
macroeconomic
conditions
around
this
there's
nothing
to
suggest.
G
On
the
other
hand,
this
is
a
slow
burn
and
it's
something
for
which
you
know
the
greatest
aspects
or
the
greatest
and
most
you
know
hopeful
advice
I
can
give.
Is
that,
depending
on
how
severe
a
recession
might
be,
it
can
result
in
changes
to
revenues
ranging
from
negative
five
to
negative
10
percent,
all
the
way
up
to
positive
five
percent,
depending
on
the
on
the
on
the
allotment,
the
level
of
inflation,
the
number
of
variables
that
are
in
play.
G
So
in
essence,
it's
fair
to
look
at
this
ahead
of
time
with
an
open.
You
know
open
mind,
but
remember
that
there
is
a
high
level
of
uncertainty.
G
It
is
unlikely
the
growth
that
we've
seen
in
the
last
two
years
will
be
repeated
in
the
next
year
and
to
expect
flat
growth
I
think
is
the
most
appropriate
way
forward
this
year
and
then,
as
we
think,
about
Revenue
growth
down
the
line,
it
will
depend
on
the
additional
economic
conditions
that
are
at
Play.
D
Thank
you
and
then
the
other
question.
I
was
curious
about
and
I
can't
remember
what
it
said
on
the
slides
about
Santa
fe's
rental
units
and
what
was
going
up
in
terms
of
Demand
versus
Supply.
So
can
you
just
highlight
that
a
little
bit
more.
G
How
much
are
you
paying
right
now
for
your
properties
and
what
we're
seeing
is
sort
of
the
tendency
for
new
rents,
the
amount
that
that
that
landlords
are
charging
for
new
rents
have
started
to
Flatline
but
and
demand
has
been
relatively
weak
from
one
source
for
the
larger
units.
The
three
and
four
bedroom
units.
G
There's
a
lot
of
complexity
here
and
there's
a
lot
of
response
in
this
market
to
this
and
I
want
to
point
back,
there's
been
a
paper
that
came
out
and
I
cited
it
in
the
presentation
and
and
you'll
see
that
and
shortly,
but
there's
a
paper
that
studied
the
market
of
Finland,
because
it
has
excellent
data
and
they've
studied
the
existence
of
luxury,
the
building
of
luxury
real
estate
and
how
that
affected
rental
prices
in
in
in
Finland,
and
they
found
that
that
shifts
demand.
G
So
when
new
apartments
are
built
or
new
entities
are
built
and
they
often
come
with
a
luxury
moniker
people
move
into
them,
but
they
also
free
up
real
estate
in
other
parts
that
might
otherwise
go
to
middle
and
lower
class
homes,
and
so
the
net
effect
was
a
fairer
market
price.
On
the
trends.
G
The
complexities
of
real
estate,
though,
are
are
immense,
and-
and
there
are
many
variables
at
play
here,
but
in
Santa
Fe
in
particular,
you
know
like
we've
seen
across
the
country,
rents
have
have
drastically
increased.
In
the
last
two
years,
we
saw
a
surge
of
low
interest
rates,
causing
a
surge
of
housing
interests.
G
Housing
prices
rose
that
price,
a
lot
of
people
out
of
buying
homes,
which
meant
they
went
into
rents
and,
as
a
consequence,
rental
prices
Rose
as
well,
making
housing
overall,
much
more
expensive,
and
so,
as
we
approach
sort
of
the
next
year
or
two,
there
has
to
be
a
logical,
Market
responses.
It's
likely
that
you
know
you
know
we
looked
at
this
and
discussing
things
like
mortgage
rates
and
how
that
affects
people.
You
know
there's
been
a
lot
of
discussion.
G
Is
this
a
return
to
normalcy,
return,
to
rates
that
we've
seen
before
every
economy
is
different
and
when
we
have
very
high
mortgage
rates,
like
we've,
seen
it's
very
hard
to
keep
asset
prices
very,
very
high
for
very,
very
long,
and
so
one
one
or
two
things
has
to
happen.
Rates
have
to
come
down
or
prices
in
some
ways
have
to
adjust
to
reflect
the
market
conditions.
G
D
That
yeah,
that
was
helpful,
I
guess
it
just
sounds
like
it
it's
well.
There
may
be
some
uncertain
uncertainty
or
our
Market,
at
least
for
rental
units.
H
G
So
wait
at
an
individual
City
level.
The
data
is
really
noisy.
So
that's
the
short
answer.
So
right
now
in
the
most
recent,
so
one
of
the
Comm
you
go
to
rent
Cafe
you
go
to
rents.com,
you
go
to
apartment
list,
you'll
get
three
individual
data
sources
that
provide
you.
Accessibility
or
availability
of
data
involving
rents
for
rents,
rent
right,
rent,
rent.com
or
rent
Cafe
I
have
to
double
check.
I,
don't
have
it
in
front
of
me,
but
they
looked
at
the
one
in
two
bedroom
units
in
Santa.
G
Fe
have
continued
to
stabilize,
but
demand
has
been
strong.
The
three
bedroom
units
because
there's
fewer
of
them,
the
rents,
the
rents,
look
a
little
bit
more
choppy
and
we're
coming
off
over
the
last
few
months
of
those
larger
rents
coming
down
and
you'll
see
that
in
the
slide
on
rents
in
in
Santa
Fe,
you
can
see
that
on
the
right
side.
C
Thank
you
chair
good
evening.
Welcome
any
comments
on
eviction
rights.
What's
been
going
on
in
the
eviction
Market
I.
G
J
Thank
you
so
much
Madam
chair.
Thank
you.
So
much
Dr
White
for
being
here
following
up
a
little
bit
on
councilwoman
veterans,
line
of
questioning
about
rentals
and
I'm
curious
kind
of
the
chicken
egg
scenario.
So
are
the
three
bedrooms
not?
Is
there
not
as
much
demand
because
they're
too
high
that
people
who
are
renting
can't
afford
them,
or
is
it
that
there's
really
not
as
much
demand
that
I
just
can't
see
how
maybe
the
families
that
might
be
wanting
a
three
bedroom
place
were
able
to
get
into
this
housing
market?
J
So,
do
you
have
any
insight
on
that?
That's.
G
A
very,
very
good
question
and
I
appreciate
I
I
appreciate
it
from
that
perspective,
so
demand
across
the
board
for
rents
and
Santa.
Fe
are
very,
very
high
in
in
general,
and
even
though
we've
seen
an
expansion
around
town
of
just
a
number
of
units
being
built,
it's
unclear
as
to
yet
and
because
we
have
trailing
data,
what
tangible
effects
those
have
had
on
the
real
estate
prices.
You
know
if
we
study
you
know
traditional
macroeconomic
analysis.
G
We
look
at
the
large
availability
of
units
to
potentially
even
at
various
price
points,
to
generally
create
a
downward
path
on
prices.
But
you
know
the
data
again
has
been
really
noisy
here.
G
So
if
you
look
at
in
I
want
to
say
I'm
going
to
bring
up
my
slide
here
from
you
know,
if
we
look
at
rent
ranges
and
rent
Trends
and
debt
is
particularly
noisy,
the
three
bedroom
units
went
up
very
high
in
June,
July
and
August,
and
then
they
fell
off
a
little
bit
and
they
fell
off
significantly
in
September
and
October
in
average
prices.
But
again
that's
taken
from
the
amount
of
new
rents
being
issued.
G
It
could
be
based
on
the
number
of
available
units,
it's
more
likely,
a
an
element
of
data
that
is
taken
from
from
from,
let's
see.
So,
if
there's
a
lot
of
elements
to
this
that
make
this
a
little
bit
noisy,
one
is,
of
course
fiscal
years
and
people
might
move
out
in
July,
31st
June
30th
might
start
a
new
new
lease
on
July
July
1st.
These
units
tend
to
be
because
they
are
larger,
they
tend
to
be
outside
of
complexes.
G
They
tend
to
be
more
of
things
like
houses,
other
units
that
might
be
more
less
traditional
approached
and
they
might
be
highly
variable
depending
on
their
location
within
the
town
and
so
as
a
consequence
of
those
things.
I
don't
have
the
level
of
data
to
ascertain
which
of
those
things
might
be,
but
that's
a
fantastic
question,
but
as
a
whole,
the
price
ended
in
October
for
the
three
bedroom
below
where
we
were
back
in
January.
So
that
is
interesting,
but
it's
likely
a
tribute
to
noisy
data.
G
J
Thank
you
very
complex,
and
of
course
you
know.
Housing,
as
you
can
probably
tell,
is
one
of
our.
Why
we're
all
focusing
in
on
that,
because
it's
just
such
a
huge
issue,
I
guess
my
other
question.
If
I'm
making
sure
that
I'm
understanding
correctly
is
that
we
look
at
sales,
and
you
mentioned
about
Eleven
Hundred
Dollar
average
a
month
in
your
mortgage
is
higher
higher
than
I'm.
Sorry,
starting
over
mortgages
are
about
eleven
hundred
dollars
a
month
higher
in
October
2022
as
they
were
in,
would
you
say,
January.
J
G
So
I
can
actually
let
me
bring
that
up
and
I
didn't
highlight
that
that
portion,
but
I
did
break
down
the
data
and
what
I
did
was
I
took
the
data
and
you
know:
I
took
it
from
this
Santa
Fe
residential,
real
estate
report
and
I.
Looked
at
two
separate
July
in
July.
2022
was
the
most
recent
data
that
I
had
in
compiling
the
slides,
and
although
it
lags
a
few
months
behind
median
prices
increased
substantially,
but
the
trailing
metrics
of
how
real
estate
you
know,
works
and
functions
and
operates.
G
There
were
greater
amounts
of
data
there.
There
was
a
larger
number
of
of
days
that
housing
is
spending
on
the
market
in
Santa
Fe.
The
number
of
pending
sales
was
down
significantly.
G
The
number
of
sales
was
down
significantly
and
and
this
this
is
fascinating
because
in
this
particular
Market
you're,
seeing
just
a
lack
of
inventory,
keep
prices
artificially
high.
So
even
though
there
might
be
a
fewer
number
fewer
number
of
houses
available,
if
fewer
people
can
afford
this,
if
mortgage
rates
are
high
and
there
just
aren't
houses
for
sale,
you
can
keep
real
estate
prices
High
indefinitely.
G
Unfortunately,
and
that's
that
I
think
is
what
we're
seeing
is
the
is
the
question
of
affordability
against
the
availability
of
inventory,
and
so
what's
ultimately
going
to
happen
is
this
is
a
source
through
the
system
is
in
coming
months?
You
know
more
inventory.
People
at
some
point
will
be
in
a
position
where
they
have
to
sell.
People
have
been
holding
off
on
selling,
waiting
to
sell
they'll
sell
and
if
inventory
does
ultimately
increase
say
next
summer,
it
will
find
a
very
different
real
estate
market
to
to
approach
buying.
J
Well-
and
it
also
seems
that
if
interest
rates
remain
so
high,
then
really
the
accessibility
for
the
average
Santa
Fe
and
Still
Remains
Out
Of
Reach.
Even
if
you
do
have
a
house
dropping
from
I,
don't
know
500
to
450
because
of
of
the
raise
and
interest
it
does
seem
like
you
still
can't
get
into
a
house.
My
am
I
understanding.
That's.
G
G
And
and
that's
the
thing
is
that
that's
the
side
note
you
can't
have
people
say:
oh,
you
know
it's
a
return
to
mortgage
rates
that
are
high,
but
at
the
same
time
you
know
the
reasons
we
have
such
high
asset
prices
is
because
mortgage
rates
have
been
low
for
so
long.
We
have
a
system,
that's
built
around
low
rates,
increasing
affordability
and
then,
when
rates
are
high,
what
that
does?
Is
it
sort
of
creates
a
different
Dynamic?
And
so
it's
unclear?
G
J
And
then
I
was
just
hoping
to
get
some
information
on
what
this
means.
I'm,
looking
at
the
table
that
has
the
leading
economic
index.
Yes,.
G
J
G
G
Statistics
produces
a
jobs
report
every
month
that
gets
reported
on
and
one
of
those
details
in
there
is
the
amount
of
hours
that
people
work,
and
so,
if
I
bring
up
the
Bureau
of
Labor
Statistics,
you
know
if
we
bring
up
the
jobs
report,
it
talks
about
the
amount
of
hours
that
are
available
and
it's
interesting
because
this
is
a
double-edged
sword
because
of
what
it
means
economically.
G
So
on
one
hand
you
say:
oh,
is
it
good
that
people
are
working
more
hours
or
do
people
have
to
cut
back
hours
or
businesses
cutting
people's
hours
in
response
to
higher
costs
in
general?
And
so,
if
we
look
at
and
I
want
to,
I
don't
want
to
miss
quotes
so
I'll
get
the
most
recent
data
here
in
October
average
hourly
earnings,
Rose
about
12
cents
and,
let's
see,
and
if
I
can
get
the
number
of
hours
here.
G
J
And
so
so
is
34.5
so
with
that
is
that
week,
like
40
is
good,
because
that's
what
we
considered
our
average
work
week
I
mean,
and
we
also
have
this
aspect
of
the
gig
economy
coming
in,
and
people
that
then
work,
maybe
they're
working
one
job
20
hours
a
week
or
maybe
they're
working
three
jobs
and
they're
working
60
hours
a
week.
I
guess
I'm,
just
not
understanding,
what's
good
and
what's
bad,
which
I
think
is
also
what
you
were
getting
at.
Is
that
there's
a
lot
of
nuance
there
as
to
what.
K
G
Workers
are
not
being
given
more
hours
in
response
to
these
shortages
in
Aggregate,
and
this
is
taken
from
a
survey,
and
so
this
is
reported
data
and
it's
one
of
a
few
metrics
that
we
have
for
this,
and
and
because
of
this
you
know
looking
at
Labor
shortages,
looking
at
the
availability
of
jobs
in
the
economy
versus
the
people
that
can
actually
fill
them.
G
Another
artifact
to
consider
is
we
looked
at
last
month.
Actually,
this
was
in
September
the
amount
of
people
who
were
unemployed
workers
as
a
good
note
that
were
unemployed
because
they
voluntarily
quit
their
jobs
were
the
highest
on
record
about
17
percent,
but
there's
still
a
disconnect.
We
have
a
ratio
of
the
amount
of
unemployed
workers
versus
the
amount
of
available
jobs
remains
almost
double
the
amount
of
unemployed
workers
to
suggest
that
we
just
don't
have
the
right
workers
right
now,
who
are
filling
the
right
jobs
and
what
that
does.
G
J
Now
I
want
to
audit
one
of
your
classes,
so
thank
you
for
that,
throw
it
onto
my
learning
list.
Thank
you.
So
much
I
really
appreciate
you
being
here
tonight.
Thank
you.
L
G
Like
a
lot
of
houses
depends,
unfortunately,
Santa
Fe
is
one
of
those
cities
where
a
lot
of
people
want
to
live
and
that's,
as
you
know,
and
so
it
depends
entirely
on
the
real
estate
market.
So,
if
I'm
talking
about
the
city
in
the
Great
Lakes
of
comparable
size,
where
there
is
a
net
desire
for
lower
population
growth
than
then
or
the
population,
growth
is
actually
declining,
then
776
would
be
a
good
number
for
a
town,
this
size
of
87
000
or
so.
G
If
I
compare
that
to
the
demand
for
housing,
I
think
that's
the
aspect.
That's
propelling
Santa
fe's,
unique
Market,
as
it
did
throughout
the
west,
but
in
even
then
I
would
argue,
uniquely
to
Santa.
Fe
has
been
the
demand
for
people
to
live
here,
not
just
from
from
the
town
itself,
but
from
outside
and
I.
Think
that
continues
to
propel
and
will
continue
to
propel
demand
for
Real
Estate
to
be
higher.
G
So
when
you
see
the
availability
of
listings
being
776
and
you're,
seeing
price
is
still
increasing
on
a
year-to-year
basis
or
a
month-to-month
basis.
It
does
imply
that
there
is
inadequate
Supply
to
meet
that
demand
and-
and
it's
likely
this
will
adjust
in
response
to
to
mortgage
changes
and
continued
changes
to
the
real
estate
market.
It's
a
good
question
so.
L
Your
other
Trend
in
listing
building
permits
is
being
weak
and
worsening
the
trend
worsening.
Do
you
see
that
that's
going
to
happen
in
Santa
Fe
or
is
it
the
Supply
going
to
be?
Is
it
going
to
take
over
and
maybe
that
Trend
hit
Santa
Fe
is
hard,
so.
G
That's
a
very
good
question,
and
so,
if
you've
looked
at
across,
that's
a
really
good
question,
councilor
Rivera
and
to
two
elements
to
this
two
answers
to
this
one
is
that
so
on
one
hand,
What
affected
building.
A
year
ago,
we
had
incredibly
High
commodity
prices,
things
like
Lumber
shot
through
the
roof,
and
we
were
talking
about
this
and
that's
since
come
down
and
lumber
prices
are
now
slightly
lower
than
where
they
were
before
the
pandemic.
G
On
the
other
side
of
that,
though,
we
also
have
people
who
have
entered
into
contracts
to
build
things
like
houses,
and
they
end
up
signing
up
thinking.
The
interest
rate
is
going
to
be
a
and
then
they
end
up
having
a
much
higher
interest
rate
down
the
line,
and
they
end
up.
You
know,
can
I
finish
this
home
can
I
afford
living
here,
and
then
it
becomes
this
calculus
for
families
or
people
that
are
building
homes
on
whether
or
not
they
can
maintain
it.
G
Builders
then
respond
to
that
demand,
and
so
what
we're
seeing
and
you
can
see
in
the
appendix
I
grabbed
quickly
from
the
Federal
Reserve
economic
data.
It's
the
very,
very
last
slide
in
there
I
look
at
building
permits
just
in
Santa
Fe,
so
we
had
this
surge
of
building
permits
in
the
middle
of
the
of
the
pandemic
and
that's
been
maintained.
But
then,
since
the
last
few
months
in
particular,
it
has
been
very
noisy.
G
It's
been
very
choppy
so
you're,
seeing
a
mixture
of
very,
very
low
approvals,
followed
by
average
levels
of
approvals,
and
so
as
a
consequence-
and
this
is
aggregated
data
for
the
metropolitan
area.
So
it
includes
the
county,
but
it
is
a
a
sense
of
the
market.
The
market
is
adjusting
and
we're
seeing
this
going
forward
too.
People
are
hesitant
to
build
homes
because
there's
uncertainty
around
rates.
B
Thank
you
just
a
couple,
quick
questions
in
the
interest
of
time,
so
in
2008
we
didn't
feel
that
recession
happen
nationally.
It
took,
as
you
pointed
out,
took
a
little
bit
longer
to
reach
us
likelihood
of
that
happening
again,
still
pretty
high
right.
That
I
mean
we
just
tend
to
be
a
little
late
in
feeling
the
impacts
when
these
things
happen
nationally,.
G
G
You
have
to
have
people
if
they
start
losing
jobs,
they'll
spend
less
money
and,
as
they
spend
less
money
that
will
affect
the
gross
receipts
tax
revenues
sooner
rather
than
later,
but
it
doesn't
like
it
did
in
2020
drop
off
a
cliff
in
one
month.
It
will,
it
will
be
a
slow
in
in
steady
sort
of
sort
of
weakening
of
the
GRT
Revenue
picture
and.
B
If
the
recession
is
short,
which
I
hear
this
one
might
be,
might
we
feel
it
less
or
at
all.
G
That's
a
good
question.
So
if
the
recession
is
short
and
the
job
market
impacts
are
limited,
absolutely
it's
quite
possible
that
the
fiscal
impact
to
the
city
will
be
negligible
and
will
be
offset
by
things
like
higher
prices
across
the
board,
because
inflation
has
been
high,
the
internet
sales
tax,
other
things
other
local
taxes.
G
It
is
quite
possible
it
could
Flatline
or
even
as
we
observed
in
some
cities,
even
in
the
Great
Recession,
they
just
increased
at
a
much
lower
rate
and
obviously
you're
looking
at
a
population
that
continues
to
grow
and
that
presents
a
different
economic
picture
than
cities
that
are
struggling
and
so
I'm
optimistic
going
forward
that
if
that
is
the
case,
it
will
be
something
to
that.
It
would
appear
brief,
and
hopefully
painless,
but,
and
my
only
side
is-
is
that
it's
still
unknown
how
severe
it
will
be.
Yeah
exercise.
B
B
You
know
we've
seen
interest
rates
Spike
because
of
what
the
FED
has
been
doing.
If
they
get
the
results
they
want
to
see
nationally
and
they
start
adjusting
those
rates
downward.
Again,
you
were
suggesting
that
we
might
see
a
housing
Supply
during
the
summer
and
if
the,
if
the
rates
responded
appropriately
to
the
fed's
actions,
we
actually
could
be
in
a
good
space
right
where
we'd
have
Supply
and
maybe
lower
rates,
and
maybe
some
affordability
in
all
of
that
thinking,
thinking
wishfully,
that
is
wonderful
thinking.
G
I
appreciate
I
appreciate
the
spirit
of
it,
but
that's
the
hard
part
is
I.
Can't
I
can't
yeah.
Yes,
it
is
possible.
It
is
within
the
realm
of
every
possible
outcome,
but
there's
also
possibilities
that
you
know
the
unemployment
rate
might
not
reach
its
need
here
until
early
2024.
H
G
So
if
we
look
at
one
indicator
about
unemployment,
we're
looking
at
an
increase
from
so
right
now
we're
in
the
threes
and
unemployment
3.7
percent,
it's
been
bad,
going
back
and
forth.
One
indicator
has
us
more
towards
the
early
low
seven
percents
in
in
beginning
of
2024
for
unemployment,
which
would
be
not
catastrophic,
but
it
is
indicative
of
a
moderate
recession,
particularly
from
where
we
came
from,
and
that
means
less
consumer
spending,
less
money
in
people's
pockets
and,
as
a
consequence,
less
money
to
spend
on
stuff
homes
and
cost
of
living,
and
it
will.
G
B
And
I
guess:
I
I
think
the
thing
that's
tricky
besides
the
uncertainty
is
that
we're
looking
at
all
this
National
Data
and
then,
as
you've
pointed
out
several
times
tonight,
we're
very
unique
in
many
respects
and
so
kind
of
extrapolating
what
our
experience
will
be.
B
G
Yes,
that's
true
and
I
guess,
as
a
final
note
on
that,
is
that
it
won't
be
2020
it'll,
be
more
like
I
hate
to
call
it
recession
a
traditional
recession,
but
it's
more
on
the
lines
of
2020
directly.
You
know
hit
Leisure
the
lesion
hospitality
industry,
the
backbone
of
a
lot
of
Santa
Fe
businesses
right
right,
Square
in
the
center,
and
that
won't
be
repeated.
And
so,
as
a
consequence
of
this,
you
know,
barring
any
additional
Health
crises
or
other
things
to
be
concerned
about
one
Outlook.
B
Yeah
and
as
you've
also
pointed
out,
we
have
strong
revenues
in
internet
sales.
Cannabis,
that's
positive.
We've
got
strong
reserves,
that's
positive
to
help
us
whether
kind
of
the
impending
storm
shall
we
say
yes
exactly.
B
Right
I
think
we
need
to
move
on
really
appreciate
you
being
here
and
thanks
for
taking
the
time
and
for
driving
up
and
being
with
us
in
person.
Oh.
G
B
Okay,
we
are
going
to
move
on,
so
we're
at
five
or
six
I
was
trying
to
hold
this
meeting
to
two
hours-
good
luck
with
that
Carol,
but
we
are
going
so,
let's
see,
let's,
let's
see
if
we
can
do
Midtown
in
a
half
hour,
I,
just
I
I
put
a
challenge
to
us
to
be
succinct
and
Direct
in
our
questioning
and
I
know,
the
Midtown
presentation
they
already
are
have
been
asked
to
be
within
a
particular
time
frame.
B
So,
let's,
let's
see
what
we
can
do
and
with
that
we
have
rich
brown.
Our
director
here
and
Rich
looks
like
you've
got
a
whole
team
of
folks.
So
I
will
just
let
you
introduce
them
great.
N
Thank
you,
madam
chair
and
members
of
the
council
good
evening.
I
wanted
to
address
something
that
Council
said
about
budgets
and
the
economy
from
an
economic
development
standpoint.
We
will
be
monitoring
the
microeconomics
of
this
possible
recession
and,
as
it
relates
to
budgets,
what
I'm
hoping
is
that
the
U.S
treasury
will
allow
us
to
free
up
some
of
our
arpa
money
if
we
have
to
stimulate
the
economy
so
I'm
hoping
that
I
can
keep
the
budgets
as
they
are,
but
we
might
need
further
funding
to
simulate
the
economy.
N
N
So
tonight
we
have
our
third
in
a
series
of
presentations
around
the
land
economics
of
the
Midtown
site
development
and
the
title
is
the
city's
return
on
investment
you'll
hear
about
the
four
layers
of
Return
of
Economic
and
Community
benefits:
there's
culture
and
arts,
technology
enhancement,
the
inclusive
economic
growth,
housing
production
and
affordability,
and
environmental
and
design
and
resilience.
N
You'll
hear
about
where
the
revenue
comes
from
and
how
we'll
expend
it
during
Redevelopment
and
we'll
conclude
with
an
estimated
market
value
or
Community
value,
an
economic
Value
Plus
the
inputs
over
the
last
nine
months
or
so,
and
I've
asked
deaner
Belzer
who's
the
principal
at
strategic
economics
to
come
tonight.
N
She'll
be
here
also
on
Wednesday,
but
I
will
ask
her
to
come
tonight
to
be
in
person
to
talk
about
this
return
on
investment
for
Midtown,
Redevelopment
and
also
Daniel
Hernandez
is
here
our
project
manager
and
Lee
logsdon,
our
asset
development
manager,
so
I'm
going
to
turn
it
over
to
miss
Belzer.
But
I
want
to
thank
you
for
the
time-
and
this
is
the
last
of
our
series
on
Midtown
land
economics,
so
Mrs
Belzer.
H
N
K
Thank
you,
Mr
Brown,
good
evening,
council
members.
It's
a
pleasure
to
be
here
in
person
and
not
on
Zoom
move
this
back.
As
rich
just
said,
we
are
on
the
third
of
our
series
of
presentations
tonight.
K
Okay,
sorry,
it's
kind
of
booming
a
little
bit
so
I'm
I'm
hearing
a
b
or
not
okay,
okay,
okay,
the
the
the
each
and
any
given
entity
that
buys
real
estate
may
buy
it
for
a
different
purpose.
So
this
slide
shows
that
a
master
developer
or
any
kind
of
a
property
developer
would
buy
with
the
goal
of
a
return
on
their
investment.
A
city
would
buy
property
and
we'll
talk
a
little
bit
about
this
more,
but
they
would
buy
property
to
really
further
the
the
goals
of
the
community,
whatever
those
are.
K
And
finally,
we
have
owner
users,
those
are
businesses
that
would
buy
real
estate
and
build
developments
because
it's
part
of
their
overall
business
model.
It
is
not
an
investment
that
they're
making
for
return,
and
these
usually
hit
their
balance
sheet
more
as
an
expense
than
they
do
as
an
asset
or
a
liability.
K
The
investment
was
made
in
2009
and
the
community
was
very
clear
that
they
wanted
to
retain
the
important
asset
of
this
institution
of
higher
education,
and
that
was
the
city's
Roi,
essentially
in
2009,
was
to
continue
to
have
an
operating
College
on
this
site,
but
in
2018,
when
Laureate
declined
to
continue
to
operate,
there
was
the
extensive
Midtown
planning
process
and
the
community
at
that
point,
articulated
four
key
goals:
Equity
the
economy,
the
environment
and
culture
and
we'll
come
back
to
talk
about
these
more.
K
But
these
four
goals
really
underpin
Santa
fe's
way
of
thinking
about
return
on
investment.
Now
again,
when
you
have
a
project
developer,
they
go
out
to
buy
land
and
think
about
developing
a
pro
property
specifically
to
achieve
that
return.
That's
what
they're
looking
for
and
they
factor
in
Risk
they
factor
in
how
much
they're
going
to
have
to
invest
and
they
figure
out
then
what
they
think
the
total
market
value
is
of
the
project.
K
That,
again,
is
the
the
value
that
they
can
achieve
when
the
project
is
built
and
either
stabilized
or
sold,
and
that
has
to
cover
all
of
the
costs.
The
land
costs
which
we'll
talk
about
again
in
a
minute,
they're
hard
construction
costs,
their
soft
costs,
which
include
include
include
the
cost
of
their
Architects,
their
attorneys
whatever
and
then.
Finally,
they
want
to
pay
themselves
a
profit.
They
want
to
pay
back
their
investors,
that's
what
they're
looking
for
and
we
talk
about
return
on
investment
in
global
terms.
K
That's
what
they're,
looking
for
a
master
developer
has
sort
of
this
same
parameters,
but
at
a
much
larger
scale,
the
projects
tend
to
be
bigger.
They
tend
to
take
longer
to
develop.
The
developer
tries
to
buy
the
land
at
the
very
cheapest
price.
They
can
because
they
know
they're
going
to
have
to
invest
incrementally
in
a
variety
of
things.
In
the
case
of
a
master
developer,
who
may
have
been
looking
at
the
Midtown
site,
they
would
have
had
to
potentially
remediate
hazardous
materials.
K
They
would
have
for
sure
had
to
invest
in
infrastructure,
demolished
buildings
get
the
entitlements.
The
zoning
change
that
we'll
be
discussing
on
Wednesday
night,
build
other
necessary
facilities,
and
then
they
would
have
had
to
determine
if
there
was
enough
spread
between
what
they
paid
and
what
they
invested
and
what
they
thought
they
could
return
based
on
market
value.
K
The
community,
on
the
other
hand,
is
not
looking
for
that
Financial
return.
They
have
defined
this
quadruple.
Sustainable
development
bottom
line
in
this
case
for
the
city's
bottom
line
or
the
sustainable
development
Roi.
Not
all
metrics
can
be
measured,
and
in
this
case
the
metrics
reflect
extensive
Community
input
so,
for
example,
Cultural,
Arts
and
Technology.
We
have
the
visual
arts
center,
which
will
be
part
of
the
disposition
process,
Garson
Theater,
which
will
be
part
of
the
disposition
process
and
foglesson
Library,
which
has
already
been
determined
to
be
retained
by
the
city.
K
It's
terrific
asset
and
we
have
inclusive
economic
growth.
We
want
economic
development,
but
we
want
good
quality
jobs.
We
want
to
be
sure
that
local
residents
can
be
included
in
that.
So
we
have
commercial
space
to
support
businesses,
nonprofits
Community
organizations,
but
the
way
that
the
disposition
process
has
been
conceived
of
and
is
described
in
the
community
development
plan.
It
specifically
states
that
job
training.
K
Education
all
kinds
of
ways
to
have
more
inclusive
growth
will
be
part
of
the
way
that
property
can
be
disposed
of,
housing,
production
and
affordability
to
the
prior
speakers.
Point
housing
production
overall
actually
will
help
the
housing
market.
It
helps
address
affordability,
and
yet
the
community
has
set
a
goal
of
a
minimum
of
30
percent
of
the
units
on
site
would
be
affordable
and
then,
finally,
looking
at
environment,
mental
and
energy
design
and
resilience
again
open
space,
sustainable
infrastructure.
K
These
things
are
all
addressed
quite
explicitly
in
the
mat
between
the
master
plan
and
the
community
development
plan,
but
this
doesn't
mean
that
the
city
only
wants
to
get
those
quadruple
bottom
line
Returns
the
city
also
wants
to
recoup
its
costs,
and
these
costs,
as
we've
discussed
in
our
previous
sessions,
are
the
outstanding
Bond
debt,
the
CD
incurred
to
purchase
the
property
in
the
first
place.
There's
the
pre-development
costs
that
we
discussed
earlier
they're
the
infrastructure
improvements
there
and
then
they're
the
ongoing
Property
Maintenance
costs.
K
In
a
minute,
but
I
want
to
point
out
that
we
have
one-time
revenues
that
would
come
from
parcel
land
disposition,
potentially
sales
potentially
lease
the
city
is
going
to
make
money
off
of
the
land,
swap
that
it's
conducting
with
the
state
they're
going
to
be
cash
as
part
of
that
you've
already
received
legislative
Appropriations
from
the
state
you'll
be
eligible
to
apply
for
more,
as
time
goes
on
and
then
finally,
there
are
we'll
continually
be,
we
hope,
Federal
infrastructure
grants
or
opportunities.
That
would
also
help
to
support
an
intense
in
terms
of
ongoing
revenues.
K
You
could
decide
not
to
sell
land
but
could
or
all
of
the
land,
but
you
could
receive
ground
lease
revenues.
We'll
talk
about
this
again
in
a
minute.
Building
leases
you'll,
get
gross
receipts,
tax,
property
tax
and
Lodgers
tax
revenue,
so
all
of
those
will
be
increasing,
so
recouping
costs
and
achieving
the
sustainable
development
on
our
Roi
are
within
reach
for
the
city
and
we're
looking
at
how
we're
going
to
join
those
two
things
together
to
change
achieve
both
this
economic
in
the
sustainable
development
goals.
K
In
order
to
do
that,
though,
we
have
to
remember
that
Midtown
is
forced
in
first
and
foremost
a
real
estate
asset
and
at
that
it
is
a
distressed
asset.
It
has
many
challenges.
Much
of
the
infrastructure
is
old.
It
doesn't
have
the
fully
built
out
Road
Network.
K
Some
of
the
buildings
need
to
be
demolished,
so
there
are
costs
involved
in
essentially
unlocking
that
real
estate
value,
so
the
city
sorry
that
one's
going
backwards.
So
the
Midtown
moving
forward
resolution
really
helps
the
city
to
unlock
these
long-term
values.
It
does
two
things:
it
establishes
the
clear
Community
goals
for
return
on
investment,
including
things
like
meeting
the
lead,
ND
standards,
setting
the
standard
for
the
30,
affordable
housing,
talking
about
job
training
and
local,
hiring
and
local
sourcing
as
part
of
the
disposition
process.
K
It
also
lays
out
a
clear
plan
for
addressing
in
the
infrastructure
deficiencies
again
to
sort
of
set
the
stage
for
development
and,
finally,
there's
a
clear
emphasis
on
early
phases
that
would
allow
for
the
things
that
the
market
is
the
most
interested
in
today
or
that
users
these
end
users,
who
are
not
looking
for
a
real
estate
return
but
can
really
help
to
stimulate
real
estate
appetite
for
the
site.
We'd
be
willing
to
do
so.
K
The
film
The
disposition
of
the
film
property
early
on
is
an
exact
example
of
that
the
film
studios
will
come
in
and
buy
that
land,
not
because
they're
making
an
investment
in
land
and
property,
but
because
they
want
that
land
as
part
of
their
business
model.
But
then
it
helps
Drive
interest
in
other
aspects
of
the
site.
So
it's
important
to
keep
in
mind
now.
Midtown's
biggest
economic
return
will
come
from
Land
disposition,
as
I've
already
said,
but
sales
values
are
determined
by
a
combination
of
things.
K
Access
to
infrastructure
and
clearly
defined
Parcels
are
also
important
again
and
then
that
that
defines
more
certainty
and
then,
finally,
the
location
to
amenities.
Things
like
jobs
and
transportation
are
important
so
that
central
location
within
the
city
are
important
for
understanding
what
values
might
be
achieved.
K
Now.
In
the
final
analysis,
land
value
will
be
determined
by
the
feasibility
that
each
developer
will
do
for
their
project.
They
will
determine
the
market
value,
those
are
the
rents
or
the
sales
prices
for
the
units
or
for
the
commercial
space.
They
will
determine
what
costs
and
what
the
cost
structure
is
at
the
time
they're
getting
ready
to
do
their
project
and
they
know
what
kind
of
return
they're
looking
for
and
usually
the
land
value
is
the
least
fixed
of
those
things.
The
other
things
are
defined
by
the
outside
market
and
then
the
negotiate.
K
The
land
values
are
direct
negotiation
between
buyers
and
sellers.
So
that's
why
we
often
refer
to
the
land
value
as
residual.
It's
the
leftover
after
the
other
costs
are
compared
against
the
development
value.
K
Now
the
commute
the
CD
will
benefit
for
disposing
of
some
land
and
from
retaining
some
assets
in
our
financial
model,
which
you'll
see
the
results
of.
We
have
assumed
that
only
62
percent
of
the
land
will
be
sold
at
least
to
private
uses.
K
15
percent
of
the
land
could
be
sold
or
released
to
community
oriented
uses.
It
could
also
be
sold
for
a
dollar
so
in
other
words
almost
for
free,
but
when
we
talk
about
what
we
think
the
current
snapshot
of
value
would
be
we're
not
assuming
that
any
of
those
Community
anchors,
that's
the
Ferguson.
Well,
obviously,
Fogelson
will
be
held
by
the
library.
It's
a
Visual
Arts
Center,
the
Greer
Garson
performing
the
theater
and
then
St
Michael's
Hall
with
the
big
commercial
kitchens.
K
None
of
those
buildings
have
been
included
in
our
financial
analysis
and
then,
of
course,
24
of
the
land
will
be
dedicated
to
public
infrastructure.
So
that's
Parks
roads,
open
space,
storm
water
management.
K
K
So
we're
not
looking
at
an
asset,
that's
necessarily
going
to
drop
in
value
and
then
never
recoup
that
value
values
could
go
up
for
a
variety
of
reasons.
In
the
interest
of
time.
I'm
not
going
to
read
through
all
of
these
and
I
want
to
also
acknowledge
that
values
could
go
down
right.
One
of
the
benefits
that
the
city
has
is
that
you'll
be
able
to
manage
the
pace
at
which
you
dispose
of
property
in
conjunction
with
the
market
cycle.
K
I
would
also
say
that,
with
a
pending
recession,
you're
doing
exactly
what
any
developer
would
be
doing
now,
which
is
planning
getting
their
entitlements
in
place,
lining
up
their
ducks
for
infrastructure
improvements.
All
of
those
things
take
time,
and
it
could
be
that
in
the
time
that's
required
to
plan
to
line
up
the
financing
Etc.
You
could
be
through
the
recession.
K
Again,
Midtown
land
proceeds
could
generate
somewhere
in
the
realm
of
24
to
34
million
dollars,
and
this
is
if
all
land
is
sold,
and
this
is
this
private
land.
This
is
63
percent,
it's
not
all
of
the
land,
but
the
land
that
we've
included
in
our
financial
model.
If
it's
sold
at
market
value,
let's
see
and
I
also
want
to
emphasize
that
these
values
are
based
on
current
market
values.
K
In
Santa
Fe,
we
interviewed
a
series
of
Brokers
and
developers
to
get
their
best
guess
at
what
land
values
were
by
land
use
in
October
of
2022,
so
in
other
words,
people's
eye
was
already
on
the
fact
that
interest
rates
were
going
up.
They
already
had
a
lot
of
information
about
the
economic
forecasts
that
are
sort
of
hanging
the
storm
clouds
in.
K
But
even
so
we're
looking
at
a
considerable
values
and
again
we
bracketed
these
values
to
be
conservative
and
to
to
be
to
show
kind
of
an
aggressive
line.
Now
the
city
could
just
decide
to
Discount
land
values
specifically
to
subsidize
affordable
housing.
So
we
just
took
the
value
of
the
four
Parcels
that
are
called
out
of
the
community
development
plan
that
would
be
used
for
affordable
housing
and
assumed
that
those
would
be
sold
for
a
dollar
or
for
basically
nothing
as
an
additional
subsidy
to
the
affordable
housing
developers.
K
So
we
valued
those
under
these
different
land
valuation
scenarios,
and
you
see
what
the
net
revenue
would
be
to
the
city
if
you
chose
to
basically
give
that
land
away
or
sell
it
for
discounted
prices
now,
affordable
housing
developers
generally
pay
market
rate
for
affordable
housing
developments.
K
K
So
I
worked
with
Laird
grazier
who's,
the
former
State
Economist,
and
an
expert
on
gross
receipts
tax
in
New
Mexico,
which
is
its
own
animal,
and
he
did
some
forecasting
for
us
which
I'll
I'll
show
in
a
minute,
but
he
assumed
that
over
the
next
18
19
years,
the
city
will
have
about
30
million
dollars
in
net
increase
in
gross
receipts.
This
is
not
just
from
the
Midtown
project,
I
might
add,
but
this
is
from
the
city
as
a
whole.
We're
going
to
share
all
this
information.
K
H
K
Arcane
he
estimated
from
Midtown
only
that
there
would
be
a
six
per
six
million
dollar
increase
in
property
tax
revenues,
Lodgers
tax
about
1.6,
so
the
total
total
cumulative
dollars
could
be
as
much
as
38
million
and
what
this
means
when
it
says
in
2022
constant
dollars.
This
means
that
it
has
not
been
adjusted
for
inflation
and
that
has
not
been
discounted
over
time.
In
other
words,
money
is
worth
more
today
than
it
is
in
the
future,
so
you
could
apply
a
discount
rate
to
it.
We
didn't
do
that.
K
We
just
took
a
snapshot.
K
Just
quickly
again
to
say:
what's
the
economic
return
on
investment
based
on
today's
costs
and
today's
revenues,
as
we
have
calculated
them
and
using
the
that
the
28
million
sort
of
the
mid
mid
range
for
Property
Disposition,
slash
land
sales,
the
projected
future
Revenue,
the
38
million,
that
I
just
talked
about
the
five
million
dollars
that
are
coming
from
the
land,
Swap
and
then
3.2
million
dollars
that
have
already
been
appropriated
or
awarded
to
the
city
from
from
the
state.
K
You
come
up
with
a
total
revenue
of
about
74
million
dollars
and
again
this
is
a
snapshot,
today's
values,
but
it
just
gives
us
a
sense
of
proportion.
When
we
then
compare
this
against
the
costs,
what
are
the
cost
of
infrastructure?
And
again
these
costs
are
costs
that
we
discussed.
K
Last
time
we
spoke
in
October,
so
there's
the
26
million,
which
we
think
is
probably
low
for
infrastructure,
outstanding,
bondeck,
the
1.7
million
for
pre-development
costs
and
when
we
subtracted
the
Revenue
the
cost
from
the
revenues
we
come
up
with
about
26
million
dollars.
So
what
this
shows
us
is
that
we're
not
we're
not
at
a
hairline
here,
we're
not
like
right,
just
barely
breaking
even,
but
we
actually
do
have
the
potential
to
to
to
manage
the
variation
or
the
fluctuation,
both
in
revenues
and
costs
yeah.
K
But
this
we
felt
like
it
was
important
to
line
these
two
numbers
up
and
see
what
they
look
like
now.
I
want
to
reiterate
again,
then
it
will
take
time
for
these
numbers
to
fall
out,
and
this
is
a
project
process
that
will
have
to
be
managed
over
time
now.
Mr
grazier
did
a
Model
that
showed
what
he
thought
the
total
income
would
be
for
the
city
looking
at
in.
You
see
this
big
drop
in
the
gold
in
the
Gold
Line
here
in
2023.
K
That
assumes
that
it
excuse
me
in
2024
that
assumes
that
the
city
gets
the
50
million
dollars
in
bond
proceeds
and
again
these
are
just
numbers
right,
we're
just
modeling
these
things
for
discussion
purposes.
We're
not
saying
this
is
what's
going
to
happen,
but
we
just
wanted
to
see
like
when
would
we
start
to
break
even,
and
you
see
the
blue
line?
Is
the
total
expense
Line
This
lines
up
with
what
I
showed
you
last
time?
K
But
what
is
factored
in
here
is
showing
the
the
gross
receipts
and
other
tax
revenues
that
will
be
coming
in
and
Mr
grazier
is
building
in
here
various
shifts
in
state
policy
around
the
way
that
gross
receipts
revenues
are
shared
between
the
state
and
the
municipalities.
So
this
makes
his
projection
quite
interesting,
but
something
again
we'll
have
to
discuss
with
the
finance
director
in
Greater
detail
in
the
future,
but
that's
the
economic
return,
let's
pivot
to
the
Community
Development,
to
return
on
investment
snapshot
and
what
we're
looking
at
here.
K
If
we
really
kind
of
hit
what
are
some
of
the
maximum
allowable
densities
under
the
master
plan
document,
the
Midtown
site
could
produce
as
many
as
1100
housing
units
and
when
you
just
heard
the
gentleman
from
the
University
say
that
producing
more
units
does
help
bring
prices
down.
So
this
is
a
good
thing
having
this
opportunity
to
continue
to
keep
the
housing
market
moving
forward.
Based
on
that
11
100
units,
the
If
we
Just
Produce,
30
percent
we'd,
have
over
300
units
of
affordable
housing.
K
There
could
be
more,
there
could
be
less
if
there
are
fewer
units,
because
some
of
these
are
based
on
inclusionary
units.
But
again
the
city
controls
the
levers
of
how
land
is
disposed
and
there
will
be
some
trade-offs
between
Community
benefits
and
economic
benefits
that
you'll
be
able
to
discuss
over
time.
42
000,
squared
of
retail
and
restaurant
space
about
84
000
square
feet
of
other
kinds
of
commercial
space.
K
And
again,
when
you
go
to
the
community
development
plan,
you'll
see
all
kinds
of
goals
for
spaces
for
artists
for
Community
organizations
for
Community
clinics.
All
of
those
uses
can
be
accommodated
within
that
plus
or
minus
hundred
and
fourteen
thousand
square
feet
of
commercial
space.
Six
acres
for
the
public
Plaza
at
open
space,
about
125
to
200
film
jobs
is
just
a
rough
estimate
based
on
kind
of
what's
produced
out
there
today
and
then
just
applying
some
very
crude
numbers
about
jobs,
square
feet
per
job
of
space.
K
We
estimate
about
250
additional
jobs,
so
that's
those
are
private
sector
jobs
and
those
are
in
a
mix
of
Industries
again
from
the
restaurant
and
Retail
all
the
way
up
to
those
technical
media,
arts
related
jobs
that
the
city
is
really
interested
in
growing
and
finally,
I
just
want
to
again
reiterate
that
we
have
these
four
Legacy
Buildings
that
will
bring
additional
Community
Roi.
The
CD
would
be
very
unlikely
to
go
out
today
and
say:
hey,
let's
build
a
Performing,
Arts
Theater
or
let's
build
something
like
the
visual
arts
center.
K
These
are
very
expensive
pieces
of
infrastructure
to
build
and
they
don't
usually
get
built
by
public
agencies
and
even
Ferguson
Library
by
taking
over
an
existing
building.
The
library
has
already
predicted
that
you're
saving
several
million
dollars
as
opposed
to
having
to
go
out
and
buy
land
and
build
a
new
facility
and
you're
getting
a
facility
that
is
incredibly
centrally
located
for
the
entire
Community,
which
is
also
important
and
then
finally
St
Michael's
Hall
that
the
community
has
expressed
a
great
deal
of
interest
in
because
of
the
large
commercial
kitchen
there.
K
So
the
combined
economic
and
Community
benefit
analysis.
What
we're
seeing
is
that
the
benefits
do
outweigh
the
costs,
but
in
order
to
really
achieve
those
benefits,
the
city
does
have
a
key
role.
So
that's
what
we're
here
to
discuss
with
you
this
week
and
our
conclusion
is
that
the
city
made
a
sound
Community
investment
when
it
purchased
the
campus
again,
the
we
have
a
summary
of
the
benefits
on
the
left
here:
I'm
not
going
to
go
through
each
one
of
them
again
individually.
B
Thank
you.
Thank
you
for
the
presentation
and
for
being
here
in
person.
Questions
from
the
committee.
C
Thank
you,
I'm
on
page.
C
K
We
use
the
base
value
the
27
million,
which
we
think
is
the
most
likely
value
and
I'm,
not
quite
sure
how
that
28
million
number
got
in
there.
As
you
know,
counselor
Lindell,
you
always
catch
my
typos,
but
it's
a
million
dollars
plus
or
minus,
but
we
did
work
with
the
base
value
here,
because
that
was
the
most
likely
right.
C
K
That
absolutely
we
just
wanted
to
look
at
the
total
value
versus
the
total
cost,
but
you
can
subtract
any
number
of
these
different
costs
and
that's
the
cities
to
determine
how
and
again
that's
that
trade-off
for
balance
between
Unity
benefits
and
the
economic
returns.
Well,.
C
K
Well,
this
is
the
best
estimate
we
have
today,
but
we
think
it's
low.
Well,
we
we
numbers
go
up
right,
so
we
don't
know
how
much
they
would
go
up
over
time.
So
again,
when
you
look
at
the
surplus
of
26.2
million
dollars,
if
the,
if
you
put
a
10
contingency
in
here
or
if
you
subtract
out
some
of
those
other
costs,
we
feel
like
there's
enough
wiggle
room
in
this
net
monetary
return
to
be
able
to
accommodate
the
fluctuations
on
both
the
costs
and
the
revenues.
C
Well,
I
think
that
the
revenues
are
high
and
I
think
that
the
costs
in
today's
world
are
I,
hope,
I'm
wrong,
but
I
think
they're
really
low.
C
Let's
go
on
to
the
slide
of
leveraging
tax
revenues
allows
for
early
investment.
I
really
don't
understand
what
the
red
line
is.
C
The
red
line
is.
It
starts
out
in
FY
23
at
over
40
million
right
and
what
is
that
that.
K
Is
the
proceeds
from
the
bond
are
in
that?
So
remember
that
this
is
basically
that
Gold
Line
plus
the
that's
total
income,
plus
the
Property
Disposition,
which
is
revenue
that
you
would
achieve
from
the
property
sales
against
the
total
expenses?
K
So
that's
showing
the
cost,
the
revenue
minus
the
cost.
So
this
has
a
high
Revenue
number
in
2023
because
it
assumes
the
50
million
dollar
Bond
issuance
and
it
also
assumes
the
early
sale
of
the
film
campus.
H
C
Well,
it's!
It
also
seems
like
it's
based
on
an
optimistic
future.
K
Surplus
is
perhaps
the
wrong
word
here,
but
it
is
showing
the
cumulative
Revenue
When.
You
subtract
the
cost
from
the
revenue,
so
this
is
showing
in
2023
that
the
Revenue
would
be
higher
than
the
costs,
because
not
all
the
infrastructure
costs
have
been
expended
yet,
and
you
see
it
drops
to
negative
almost
20
million
in
fiscal
year
28
and
then
it
starts
to
go
up
again
as
land
sales
start
to
occur
and
as
the
projected
gross
receipts
tax
and
other
tax
revenues
increase
in
Mr
grazer's
model.
K
C
Do
we
ever
do
have
more
than
one
person
put
their
eyeballs
on
these
I
think
it's
I
mean
we're
talking
on
every
one
of
these
tens
of
millions
of
dollars
based
on,
if
not
hundreds,
one
person's
projections.
Some
do
we
get
more
than
one
person's
idea
on
this.
K
Absolutely
absolutely,
and
of
course
this
will
have
to
play
out
over
time,
but
again
this
was
our
best
guess
at
a
financial
model
showing
what
a
performer
could
look
like
on
the
city's
side.
So
it
should
absolutely
be
scrutinized
and
it
should
be
checked
and
double
checked.
There's
no
question
about
it,
and
this
is
not
meant
to
be
a
exact
forecast
of
what
is
going
to
happen,
but
it's
meant
to
give
you
some
a
number
we
you
can
squint
at,
as
we
say
in
our
business.
K
B
K
I
think
that's
right
and
I
think
that's
why
the
number
spikes
in
2023
I,
don't
think
I
know!
That's
why
the
number
spikes
so
high
in
2023,
and
then
it
levels
out
through
2025
through
2039,
and
you
see
it
has
a
little
fluctuation
in
it.
K
So
that
is
the
ongoing
Revenue
again
from
the
gross
receipts
tax
and
then
the
cost.
The
total
expenses
that
you
see
include
the
payment
of
the
bond.
It
includes
the
infrastructure
costs
and
the
other,
the
other
costs
that
we
discussed
on
the
previous
slide.
So
perhaps
the
this
could
be
labeled
a
little
bit
better
but
you're
right
counselor.
This
is
the
the
income
includes
proceeds
from
the
bond,
so
this
is
income
that
could
be
used
for
improvements
to
Midtown.
B
K
K
So
again
we
just
worked
with
the
phasing
assumptions
that
we
that
are
in
the
community
development
plan
and
the
master
plan,
and
the
assumption
that
the
infrastructure
would
move
forward
sooner
rather
than
later
again,
we
don't
show
in
this
revenue
forecast,
but
we
discussed
on
October
17th
about
developer
reimbursement
for
some
portions
of
the
infrastructure
costs
and
also
the
fact
that
the
the
highest
infrastructure
cost
is
road
construction,
that's
also
the
cost
that
is
the
most
likely
to
be
paid
for
through
grants
from
the
state
or
federal
government.
K
C
That's
that
slide
confounds
me
a
little
bit
because
an
estimated
30
million
dollars
in
increased
grocery
seats
tax
for
the
total
City
over
the
course
of
16
years
not
very
much
a
year
and
I
mean
it's
a
couple
million
dollars
a
year.
It's
really
not
that
much
considering
you
know
the
valuable
money
now
is
compared
to
the
value
of
money
in
the
future,
and
you
know
this
almost
makes
the
it
can
be
leveraged
to
pay
for
INF
infrastructure
and
other
costs
associated
with
Midtown
I.
C
Think
if
we've
only
probably
got
two
million
dollars
of
additional
grocery
seats
tax
in
2029
I,
don't
know
that
the
city
won't
have
some
other
pressing
issues
that
they
want
to
spend
that
money
on
Additionally
the
property
tax
from
Midtown
alone.
C
K
C
But
my
point
is
that
we're
not
talking
about
really
sizable
projection
of
increased
gross
receipts
tax.
It
worries
me
that
we
think
that,
with
an
increase
of
30
million
dollars
over
the
course
of
16
years
that
that's
going
to
be
funneled
into
this
project,
I
I
think
that's
I.
Don't
know
that.
That's
true.
K
C
But
this
just
feels
tremendously
risky
to
me.
That
is
not
a
lot
of
gross
receipts
increase
on
an
annual
basis
at
all,
and
this
Project's
basically
saying
you
get
two
million
dollars
of
increased
GRT
a
year.
We
got
to
have
it
over
here,
don't
even
think
about
another
project,
don't
think
about
doing
something
else.
We
got
to
have
it.
C
So
those
are
my
thoughts
on
this
it.
It
feels
really
risky
to
me.
That's
my
thoughts.
Thank
you,
chair.
J
Councilor
Kasson
thanks
so
much
Madam
chair,
so
just
just
to
follow
up
as
we're
looking
at
kind
of
all
these
different
projections
and
these
different
numbers.
When
I'm
looking
at
slide,
18.
move
that
snapshot.
We
had
also
talked
about
a
few
other
things
that
that
aren't
included
in
here.
That
could
potentially
be
some
Revenue.
So
we
talked
about
federal
grants.
K
State
grants
developer
reimbursement
for
infrastructure
costs.
This
is
why
we
think
that
74
million
is
actually
could
be
a
conservative
number
or
that
there
are,
you
could
think
of
it,
as
there
are
other
ways
to
offset
the
revenue
risk.
Okay,
okay,.
H
K
Data
that
is
here
right
now,
yes
and
the
the
the
road,
the
construction
of
Roads
is
the
highest
cost.
As
you
may
recall,
and
again
we
I've
spoken
to
a
lot
of
experts
about
the
cost
assumptions
that
we
used
and
they
said
yeah.
You
know
it's
probably
about
right,
but
we
don't.
We
don't
know
so.
I
think
that
this
has
just
been
a
time
of
tremendous
uncertainty
about
costing
for
infrastructure
projects
like
that.
K
Yes,
that's
the
one
cost
that
has
no
source
of
Revenue
directly
associated
with
it,
like
the
the
the
other
costs
were
sewer
and
water.
The
other
larger
costs
were
sewer
and
water
and
remember
that
those
will
be
paid
back
through
reimbursement
and
through
overall
Master
planning
for
the
utilities.
J
J
J
We
should
do
that,
but
in
terms
of
more
of
the
net
monetary
return,
I
really
do
do
feel
that
a
lot
of
the
policy
comes
around.
What
is
this
going
to
bring
to
the
community
so
the
housing,
the
jobs,
the
social
aspect,
the
open
space,
and
so
if
we
could
go
back
to
supporting
the
affordable
housing
with
the
land
donation,
and
so
when
you
say,
affordable,
housing,
land
donation,
you
know
4.5,
5.6
or
4
million
kind
of
based
on
different
costs.
That's
basically
where
we're
given
giving
land
away.
J
And
then
what
about
I
mean
I
would
imagine
that
when
we
do
affordable
housing
projects,
we
usually
do
a
lot
of
support
in
terms
of
some
of
the
infrastructure.
Cost
am
I,
correct,
Alexandra's
here.
K
O
Chair
counselor
cassette
thanks
for
that
question.
We
support
affordable
housing
projects
in
a
variety
of
ways.
The
land
donation
is
one
of
them.
We
provide
fee
waivers,
they
pay,
they
don't
have
to
bring
their
own
water
they're.
Given
water
rights,
permit
fees
are
reduced
or
even
waived
entirely.
So
there
are
lots
of
different
ways.
O
O
Madam
chair
counselor
cassette:
it
would
not
be
attributable
at
all
to
the
inclusionary
units
because
those
are
part
of
the
market
rate
production
so
that
so
the
developers
covering
those
costs,
so
the
the
donation
would
be
exclusively
for
the
set-aside
parcels
that
will
support
100
affordable
is
that
was
that
your
question
I,
don't
think.
J
So
I'm
not
sure
so
you
know
you
you
mentioned,
for
example,
water
rights
is
something
that
we
don't
make
them
bring
to
the
table
when
we're
looking
at
I.
O
Madam,
chair
counselor
cassett
that
you're
right
to
identify
those
as
additional
supports
and
they're
not
calculated
in
the
revenue
or
the
cause
projections
here:
okay,
but
they
also
again
They
do
change.
You
know
we
may
have
a
new
subsidy
source
of
financing
that
comes
online.
That
covers
a
cost
that
we
would
we
would
have
covered
in
here
for
General
infrastructure,
okay,.
J
Thank
you,
I
think
what
I'm
really
Gathering
from
just
the
overall
conversation
and
presentation
is
there's
just
so
much
in
flux
and
I.
I
mean
I.
Think
that
that's
going
to
be
one
of
the
really
challenging
pieces
that
as
we're
making
decisions,
especially
as
you
know,
we're
discussing
kind
of
the
parcelization
of
Midtown.
So
it's
not
just
you
know
we're
going
to
sell
this
thing
for
one
fixed
cost
and
then
it
goes
to
developer
and
and
how
we
I
guess.
This
is
up
to
to
staff.
This.
E
J
Part
of
your
job
is
it's
really
how
we
start
to
keep
track
of
that
balance.
Keep
track
of
of
you
know,
especially
if,
as
it's
going
to
be
developed
over
time
and
and
there's
all
these
different
components
that
come
in
I'm,
not
quite
sure,
there's
a
question
here:
more
of
an
understanding
of
the
enormity
of
the
project
and
the
length
of
the
project
and
the
complexities
that
set
here
and
the
understanding
that
there
are
these
different
levers.
J
You
know
councilor
mayor
worth
brought
up,
we
decide
how
much
we
go
out
to
bond
for
when
we
go
out
to
bond,
and
do
you
know
so,
there's
there's
all
these
there's
all
these
different
pieces
and-
and
you
know
maybe
Dina
since
you
have
done
some
of
these
larger
projects.
J
K
That's
a
great
question
and
I
would
say
there
are
three
aspects
to
that
answer.
First
of
all,
the
zoning
and
the
master
plan
sort
of
set
what
the
physical
parameters
will
be.
So
once
that's
adopted,
I'm
I'm,
sorry,
I'm,
hearing
the
buzz
so
I'm
hoping
I'm,
not
buzzing
you
out.
K
The
second
is
the
community
development
plan,
which
has
a
a
great
deal
of
information
in
it
about
how
the
disposition
process
should
be
conducted
again
based
on
the
community's
goals
and
values.
So,
assuming
that
that
stays
in
place-
and
then
the
third
thing
that
is
under
consideration
is
the
creation
of
a
metropolitan
Redevelopment
area,
and
if
that
area
is
created
it
there
will
be
a
board,
there
will
be
staff
and
there
will
be
an
implementing
entity
that
has
the
opportunity
to
be
quite
entrepreneurial.
Now
that
board
will
be
advisory.
K
The
way
the
planning
commissioner,
would
be
advisory
advisory
to
the
governing
body,
but
again
it
has
a
community
presence
to
it.
There's
a
transparency
because
of
that
and
there
is
again
a
clear
path
for
managing
a
clear
process
or
managing
this
because
you're
right
over
time,
it's
complicated-
and
this
is
how
these
big
military
bases
are
managed
in
other
cities.
They
have
a
reuse,
Authority
or
some
other
entity,
and
they
handle
everything
from
leasing
to
managing
the
infrastructure.
Capital
Improvements
to
the
to
the
procurement.
J
K
J
Committees,
yeah
right
thanks
for
jogging,
my
memory
of
things
for
you,
remembering
I
will
go
ahead
and
yield
the
floor
for
the
time
being.
So,
thank
you
so
much
again
for
the
presentation,
Madam
chair,
thank.
B
You
counselor
councilman
virio.
D
Madam,
chair
I
think
you
Miss
Belzer
for
being
with
us
in
person.
It's
good
to
see
you
I
just
wanted
to
follow
up
on
that
Revenue
amount,
the
land
sales
amount.
D
D
P
K
F
K
To
take
it
that
way:
yeah
yeah,
because
the
the
that's
on
a
growth
basis,
yeah
I,
would
tell
you
how
many
acres
and
then
what
we
did
was
we
took
each
block
and
parcel,
as
it
was
laid
out
in
the
master
plan,
created
a
set
of
assumptions
about
how
that
would
be
developed.
What
use
would
be
developed
because
remember,
the
master
plan
only
has
suggested
uses
and
there
are
a
range
of
densities
and,
to
some
extent,
use
types
but
mostly
densities,
that
developers
can
choose
from
they
have
to
meet
the
form-based
code.
Q
D
So,
based
on
that
assumption,
that
62
percent,
what
if
it
ends
up
being
lower
and
we
we
lease
more
or
their
the
option
for
that
or
maybe
folks
out
there
would
prefer
to
do
that
versus
trying
to
buy
land
and
develop
it
privately.
So.
K
Yeah
glad
you
asked
that
question
because
we
discussed
that
this
afternoon.
So
if
you
decide
that
you
don't
want
to
sell
the
land,
then
that
takes
off
of
this
value
again
we
were
going
for
the
biggest
possible
number,
which
is
the
because,
because
what
we
were,
what
we
were
going
for
was
really
testing
the
assumption
that
economic
return
was
a
key
goal
for
the
city
and
so
that
assumption
then
plays
out
in
early
land
sales
and
selling
as
much
land
as
possible.
K
Again,
assuming
that
those
Legacy
Buildings
don't
get
sold,
they
could
be
sold
or
leased,
but
they're
not
part
of
this
calculation
and
then
the
other
thing
is
that
you
it
depends
on
what
you
want
to
do
with
those
four
sites
that
could
be
developed
for
affordable
housing
again,
would
you
give
those
away?
Would
you
donate
those
to
affordable
housing
projects?
So
we
we
calculated
these
numbers
just
to
give
you
a
sense
of
what
those
potential
trade-offs
could
look
like
and
how
those
decisions
could
be
made.
K
Now,
if
you
were
to
say
well,
we
don't
want
to
sell
as
much
of
the
land
we
want
to
ground
lease.
The
Land
There
are
some
complications
to
that
residential
projects,
for
example,
particularly
for
sale
projects.
It
are
not
financiable
with
a
grounders.
So
if
you
wanted
to
build
town
homes
for
sale,
town
homes,
even
for
affordable
units,
that
would
be
basically
impossible
to
do
so.
That's
where
a
trade-off
comes
in
right.
K
The
other
trade-off
is
that
if
you
decide
you
want
to
ground
lease,
you
ground
leases,
extend
out
over
60
to
75
years
sometimes
longer,
and
you
can
also
look
at
what
that
ground.
Lease
Revenue
would
be
over
that
60-year
period.
K
You
apply
this
discount
rate
to
it
and
it
might
be
a
bigger
number
than
the
land
sale
value
would
be
assuming
we
were
going
to
sell
the
land
in
the
next
15
years
say,
but
you
wouldn't
have
that
Revenue
to
to
work
with
to
again
Finance
some
of
the
infrastructure
or
some
of
the
other
improvements
that
you
might
want
to
make
to
the
site.
So
there
are
trade-offs
with
these
various
decisions
and
again
we
were
modeling
one
of
the
most
basic
set
of
trade-offs.
A
K
Bundle
of
four
Legacy
Buildings
just
so
we
could
assume
that
those
could
be
at
least
sold
how,
whatever
whatever
needs
to
happen
and
all
of
those
kinds
of
uses.
Well,
the
St
Michael's
Hall
depends
on
what
that
use
might
be
as
to
whether
or
not
a
ground
lease
is
viable,
but.
A
D
I
guess
when,
when
I
hear
about
all
these
different
scenarios,
I
think
it
it's
going
to
depend
on
what
proposals
we
get
and
I'm
just
curious,
because
you
all
probably
people
have
been
contacting
staff.
Are
these
projections
based
on
some
of
the
inquiries
that
you've
been
receiving.
D
N
Madam,
chair,
Council
burial.
It's
a
good
question.
If
you
exclude
the
performance
arts,
theater,
Visual,
Arts,
Center,
those
are
sort
of
separated
out
and
and
truthfully
I've
gotten
more
inquiries
about
leasing
it
to
local
organizations.
I
still
have
to
pay
for
the
infrastructure
cost,
so
you
know
they
have
to
add
a
2.5
million
dollar
infrastructure
build
before
they
can
figure
out
a
lease
on
it,
but
for
the
other
Parcels
we've
had
many
more
inquiries
about
buying
land
to
Ms
Belzer's
point
about
financing.
You
can't
really
Finance
these
housing
developments.
N
If
it's
leased
out
it's
just
it's
just
difficult
to
do
so.
We've
had
more
inquiries,
I
have
more
inquiries
around
buying
the
parcels
in
their
response
to
proposals
and
I
can't
share
all
the
details
with
them,
but
that's
kind
of
what
they
want
to
talk
about,
but
that's
kind
of
what
has
been
happening
so
far.
Thank.
D
You
and
I
guess
the
other
question
you
had
brought
up
about
momentum
and
that
it's
what
the
market
is
interested
in
today,
and
so
that
makes
me
also
think
about
what
the
market
has
been
interested
in
today
with
the
Housing
Development
we've
had
in
Santa
Fe,
which
has
been
primarily
market
rate
in
utilizing
fee
in
lieu
of,
and
so
what
I'm
curious
is.
D
To
make
it
so
I
just
think
about
us
like
what
we
need
for
our
community
and
residents
and
specifically
related
to
housing.
Obviously
there's
other
needs
there.
You
know
with
with
the
economy.
So
with
you
know,
retail
business
Etc
and
then
also
the
public
spaces,
so
I
guess
I'm
just
trying
to
understand
like
we
always
talk
about
the
market,
but
the
market
is
this
economic
engine
and
then
what
are
the
needs?
We
need
for
residential,
like
community
members
today.
O
Madam,
chair
councilor
beatrial,
if
I
can
take
this
one
I
think
one
of
the
advantages
we
have
is
that
we
own
the
land
city
owns
land
right.
So
much
like
we
do
with
our
affordable
housing,
trust
funds
and
our
cdbg.
You
know
we
don't
put
out
an
RFQ
or
an
RFP
to
say,
like
okay
who's
going
to
do
down.
Who
wants
to
do
down
payment
assistance
we
say
here
are
the
eligible
uses.
Here
are
the
priorities
here?
Are
the
values
we're
responding
to
now
Community?
O
Who
is
providing
the
services
and
building
the
housing
and
working
directly
with
the
people?
You
tell
us
what
you
need
from
your
constituents
point
point
of
view.
So
that's
kind
of
what
the
advantage
we
have
here
is
that
we
can
put
this
out
to
the
community
and
we're
gonna
we're
gonna
find
out
who
needs
what
by
the
responses
we
get
back,
because
Homewise
isn't
going
to
build
houses
for
people
who
can't
buy
them
right.
O
Lifelink
isn't
going
to
try
to
put
together
a
rental
project
if
they
don't
have
any
renters
who
can
live
there?
So
so
we
do
have
that
advantage
that
we
can
set
up
that
that
value
as
part
of
that
return
on
investment.
D
O
And
Madam
chair,
counselor
Via
Real,
if
I
can
make
another
point
just
to
that
point,
I
think
we
tried
and
I
stumbled
through
trying
to
explain
this
months
and
months
ago
when
we
were
standing
here
talking
about
this,
because
that
is
our
power.
You
know
that
is
our
our
superpower
here,
and
so
we
don't
want
to
set
a
lot
of
restrictions
or
a
lot
of
specifics
at
this
point
in
time,
because
we
want
to
be
able
to
write
those
rfps
to
respond
directly
to
what's
happening
in
the
community
at
the
time
it's
happening.
O
We
know
this
is
going
to
take
years,
but
if
we
set
a
bunch
of
rules
right
now
like
well,
it
has
to
do
this
and
it
has
to
do
that
and
we
know
these
are
our
needs
right
now
and
we
want
to
respond
exactly
to
those
needs.
We're
going
to
get
ourselves
in
a
situation
where
we
can't
be
nimble
and
where
we're
not
serving
the
community.
D
So
that's
that's
what
I'm
hoping
for
and
wanting
to
see
and
then
the
last
question
is
kind
of
related
to
this
is
like
we
talk
about
the
quadruple
bottom
line,
and
then
this
report
really
focuses
on
economy,
the
economy
piece
and
it's
hard
for
me
to
visualize,
because
it's
not
forecasted
here
but
like
how
do
we
even
forecast
Equity
culture
and
environment
like
these
are
things
that
I
don't
see
in
here
and
they're
important.
D
So
when
we
talk
about
it
being
a
priority
for
us
to
have
the
quadruple
bottom
line,
I
don't
actually
see
it
in
the
presentation.
So
that's
what
I
care
about
and
I
think
we
all
care
about
that
I'm
just
trying
to
figure
like
how
do
you
actualize
it
when
it's
like,
based
on
like
revenues
and
cost
estimates.
N
It's
very
difficult:
that's
why
it's
called
land
economics
versus
Community
report,
so
I
think
where
you
could
get
an
answer
is
to
miss
Latz
point
is
that
when
the
rfps
goes
out,
we
we
lay
it
all
out
there
as
as
she
said,
our
superpowers
This
Is,
Our
Land.
So
we
get
to
make
the
rules,
and
so
we
can
add
Equity
sustainability
Etc
into
our
requirements
for
responses,
two
different,
our
civilizations,
so
that's
kind
of
where
you'll
see
it.
N
You
won't
necessarily
see
it
in
the
numbers,
because
it's
very
intangible,
it's
very
intangible,
but
you
can
see
it
when
people
respond
to
requests
for
proposals
that
you
know,
focus
on
local
jobs
or
focus
on
affordability
or
they
focus
on
sustainability
or
they
collaborate
with
local
community
organizations.
That's
where
you'll
get
to
see
this
response
of
that
triple
bottom
line.
You
won't
actually
see
it
in
these
numbers
because
we
have
to
look
at
it
as
this
started
as
a
community
benefit.
N
This
development
we're
now
at
a
place
where
we're
actually
selling
it
and
disposing
it
we're
doing
development
we're
doing
infrastructure,
so
it
changed
a
bit
since
2008
or
nine.
So
that's
where
I
think
you'll
see
that
that
response,
and
that
intangible
part
is
when
rfps
go
out
when
we
do
include
those
values
and
requirements
into
them.
D
Thank
you,
I
think
I'll.
Just
close
with
the
point
when
I
think
about
this
monetary
return,
we
may
not
get
a
monetary
in
return,
but
we
will
get
a
community
return
and
so
I
I
see
counselor
kesset.
You
know
brought
this
up.
The
balance
of
that
I
think
is
going
to
be
important
and
it's
probably
going
to
take
a
while
to
get
there.
So
thank
you.
B
Thank
you,
counselor
and
just
again,
to
remind
us.
This
presentation,
in
particular,
is
about
the
city's
return
on
investment,
I,
think
in
terms
of
the
economics
and
the
financial
situation
and
using
this
model
as
one
kind
of
way
to
look
at
all
these
moving
pieces
and
how
complicated
this
is.
It's.
Really,
if
you,
if
you
want
to
look
you've,
got
to
look
to
the
community
development
plan
and
that's
not
what
they're
emphasizing
tonight,
but
I
think
we
did
do
that
a
couple
presentations
ago.
B
So
again,
this
very
complicated
development,
councilor
Rivera
and
we're
not
going
to
make
my
goal
of
two
hours
by
any
stretch
of
the
imagination
but
well
I,
think
we
are
all
being
kind
of
conscientious
and
and
being
clear
in
our
in
our
questioning
so
appreciate
that.
Thank
you.
L
Sure
can
someone
answer
if
the
rail
yard
flats
are
on
leased
property.
N
C
K
L
And
then
your
assumptions
I
have
notes
here
from
another
meeting
that
I
believe
you
were
in
that
said,
if
the
city
leased
the
space
that
we're
currently
using
the
building
space,
we.
K
Any
of
the
solution
term
leases
in
terms
of
looking
at
the
ways
that
the
current
operating
revenues
are
offsetting
the
current
operating
costs,
so
that
that
was
just
like
in
today's
you
know
paying
the
bills.
How
are
we
paying
those
pills
and
how
much
of
that
is
coming
from
the
city's
general
fund
and
how
much
of
that
is
coming
from
other
Revenue
source?
So
that's
what
that
was
with
respect
to
this
is
all
looking
forward
to
look
at
the
long-term
development.
H
L
N
L
N
A
K
H
L
B
You
counselor
I
have
just
a
couple
questions
so
I
want
to
address.
You
know:
we've
had
one
person
who
did
this
model,
but
his
background
is
considerable.
B
Mr
grazier
has
been
around
the
financial
end
of
state
government
for
a
very
long
time
in
a
variety
of
positions
and
has
quite
a
bit
of
expertise,
so
I
mean
I.
Think
when
we
look
at
all
right.
One
person
did
this
model.
B
The
fact
that
this
person
has
substantial
qualifications
should
give
us
some
confidence
in
the
I
mean
it's
not
a
crystal
ball,
but
it
does.
It
is,
should
be
valuable
information
right.
K
B
Because
you're
from
out
of
state
yeah
right.
K
H
K
Again,
we
really
want
to
share
these
models
with
missions,
because
I
think
that
she
needs
to
really
get
her
head
around
these
numbers
and
decide
whether
or
not
she
thinks
Caesar
even
legitimate
and
again,
some
of
it
is
based
on
some
key
assumptions
about
ways
in
which
current
Revenue
sharing
is
Shifting
yeah.
That
also
speaks
to
some
of
the
increased
bonding
capacity.
That's
not
showing
up
in
that
30
million
dollars
over
15
in
or
so
years,
right.
B
So,
at
the
same
time,
I
sing
the
Praises
of
Mr
grazier
I.
Do
think
that
that
doesn't
mean
that
we
shouldn't
be
critical
and
analyze
his
assumptions
and
I.
B
Has
a
long
history
in
New,
Mexico
and
I'm
sure
it
is
our
fee
in
lieu
of
dollars
and
how
they
may
be
changing.
I,
don't
know
whether
he
looked
at
you
know.
Santa
Fe
has
not
used
its
full
GRT
capacity
that
the
state
has
given
us.
I,
don't
know
if
that
was
factored
in.
So
I
too
would
be
very
interested
in
some
of
the
assumptions
that
he
made
around
that
model
and
yeah.
K
Great
I
have
a
12-page
document
of
technical
assumptions
which
I'll
share
with
massager
first
and,
and
he
and
I
are
hoping
that
we'll
get
a
chance
to
meet
with
you
directly
at
some
point
in
the
near
future
to
go
over
all
of
this
because,
again,
these
based
on
your
input
and
some
of
these
other
things,
these
models
are
shift.
None
of
these
things
are
casted
right.
B
Right
but
again,
going
back
to
what
a
model
is
right
is
just
one
way
to
give
some
shape
some
structure
to
this
very
large,
very
complicated,
big
lift
for
the
city
and
trying
to
help
us
get
our
heads
around
all
right.
Well,
if
we
did,
you
know
if
we
push
that
level,
we
get
this.
If
we,
you
know
pull
here,
we
get
that,
and
you
know,
as
as
to
the
first
presentation
we
had
from
Dr
White.
All
of
this
very
uncertain
a
lot
of
uncertainty.
B
We
have
no
idea
what
the
future
will
bring
us,
and
but
we
can.
You
know
this
starts
to
get
us
to
start
thinking
about
the
different
things
that
are
available
to
us
in
as
we
go
forward
in
in
doing
this
development
and
I
do
I
think
the
the
the
references
to
other
state
or
other
cities
that
have
done
the
military
bases,
Denver
being
one
of
them
quite
successfully.
I,
don't
know
if
you're
involved
in
that
one.
B
You
know
it
took
a
a
retired
military
base
and
has
you
know
again
very
large,
complicated
and
has
reaped
benefits
from
that.
So
and
of
course,
there
have
been
others
so
that
the
I
think
those
are
kind
of
prop
they're
kind
of
comparable
scales
of
what
we're
trying
to
do
here
in
some
ways,
yeah.
K
I
mean
Stapleton
is
much
larger
than
Midtown
is,
but
it's
a
good
comparable
in
some
ways,
because
the
location
of
Stapleton
was
very
valuable
in
the
long
run
for
building
housing
in
particular.
H
B
Okay
and
then
the
housing
thing
so
we've
said
30.
We
we
we're
looking
at
wanting
30,
affordable
housing
on
this
property
and
not
and
I.
You
know
I
think
it
it
does.
It
is
perhaps
our
greatest
opportunity
for
really
getting
a
big
chunk
of
affordable
housing
and
we
need
to
maximize
that
and
I
guess.
My
question
is
in
the
land,
donation
slide
and
I.
Think
you
sort
of
answered
this
yeah.
B
If
we,
this
is
just
four
Parcels
yeah,
so
this
is
not
all
of
what
we
can
do
around
affordable
housing.
This
is
just
because
it
because
I
think
you
an
answer
to
another
question
said
something
about
this
doesn't
include
the
fee
in
lieu
of
which
would
be
those
are
different,
Parcels
that
might
be
used
that
might
utilize
fee
in
lieu
of
that's.
K
B
B
And
then
I
I
guess
I
I
also
wanna
go
back
as
this.
This
idea
of
30,
affordable
housing
on
this
property
I
think
I
have
heard
that
this
is
actually
a
really
good
number
for
this
kind
of
development
and
I,
don't
know
if
anybody
can
speak
to
that.
In
terms
of
you
know,
really
maximizing
our
opportunities,
and
you
know
the
lay
person
might
say
well
why
not
50
or
you
know
why.
Why
aren't
we
getting
more
but
again
the
economics
of
it
and
all
the
things
we're
trying
to
do.
O
Madam
chair,
it's
a
it's
a
really
good
number.
When
you
look
at
the
only
the
only
projects
here
that
have
exceeded
that
number
would
be
tier,
contenta
and
navaje,
which
were
both
mostly
home
ownership,
built
under
very
different
development
assumptions,
very
different
property.
It's
you
know:
it's
not
Redevelopment,
it's
it's
new
land
so,
but
the
30
number
is
quite
high
in
terms
of
inclusionary
zoning
standards
and
I.
Think
the
answer
to
why
aren't
we
doing
more?
Because
that's
a
logical
question
to
ask
right?
Well,
we
own
it.
O
Why
should
it
should
all
be
affordable
right?
Because
that's
not
what
we
do.
You
know
we
would
have
to
be
a
housing
provider,
Housing
Authority,
you
know,
there's
so
much
more.
That
goes
into
the
long-term
cost
of
affordable
housing.
It's
not
just
the
cost
of
of
the
production.
That's
actually
the
easy
part.
It's
the
operations
and
the
ongoing
subsidy
that
would
be
required,
and
that's
not
what
we're
taking
on
here.
It
could
be,
but
that's
not
that's,
not
what
we
set
out
to
do.
B
So
we
and
I
guess
the
way
I
would
say
that
really
shorthand
is.
We
have
multiple
objectives
on
this
property:
it's
not
just
affordable
housing,
but
again,
there's
as
we'll
see
in
two
days
with
the
master
development
plan
and
the
Community
Development
plan
we're
trying
to
do
a
an
awful
lot
with
with
this
piece
of
property.
J
More
I
will
be
very
quick
just
following
up
on
that
housing
piece.
I
think
the
other
you
know,
I've
harped
on
this.
A
couple
times
is
that
we
don't
just
need
affordable
housing,
we
need
middle-income
housing,
and
so
that's
something
that
I'm
also
really
interested
in
here
and
that
I
sometimes
think
that
we
forget
and
this
understanding
of
what
is
market
rate
housing,
because
we
have
affordable
housing
and
then
we
I
mean
it's
like.
J
We
almost
have
these
two
categories:
affordable
housing,
which
we
need
deeply
affordable
housing,
but
we
also
need
market
rate
housing
in
the
middle
income.
Market
range
and
I
think
that
that
Nuance
is
sometimes
lost,
that
people
think
that
if
it's
not
affordable,
it's
a
1.5
million
dollar,
home
and
I,
don't
know
Alexandra.
If
you
can
speak
to
that
a
little
bit
more
about
how
we
achieve,
because
it
really
is
it's
a
mix
of
housing,
we
want
the
affordable,
we
want.
J
But
we
also
know
that
we
have
a
major
housing
shortage
in
kind
of
that
middle
chunk
for
for
first-time
home
buyers
who
don't
qualify
for
a
lot
of
the
affordable
housing
programs.
That's.
O
Correct
Madam,
chair
counselor
cassette-
that
is
one
of
the
the
Visions
here
as
well,
is
to
because
we're
creating
an
urban
form
that
will
support
a
lot
of
different
housing
types
that
the
rest
of
our
Market
doesn't
offer.
So
an
entry-level
Market
rate
home
ownership
option.
That's
a
town
home
is
going
to
be
more
affordable
generally
than
a
standalone
house
with
a
lot
of
land,
just
like
an
apartment
will
have
a
more
affordable
rent
if
it's
more
affordable
to
develop
in
that
in
that
particular
part
of
town.
So
that's
what
we're
aiming
for.
O
We
want
to
keep
our
development
costs
as
low
as
possible
to
inspire
the
market
to
create
a
housing
product
that,
where
they
don't
have
to
maximize
value,
they
don't
have
to
work
in
a
bunch
of
contingencies.
We
can
control
the
process.
We
can
make
these
things
easier
for
the
the
developers
who
choose
to
partner
with.
J
Us
and
kind
of
speaking
to
our
earlier
presentation,
you
know
part
of
our
issue
is
that
we
just
have
such
a
housing
shortage
that
we're
almost
getting
these.
You
know,
I'm,
not
sure
artificial,
is
the
correct
word,
but
we're
getting.
You
know
housing
prices
that
are
really
high
based
on
what
the
the
housing
product
is.
It
shouldn't
be
that
way,
but
because
of
our
shortage,
we're
seeing
this
increase
when
we're
not
controlling.
Do
we
when
we
do
go
out
for
RFP
I
am
hopeful
that
we'll
be
able
to
put
in
some
potential
controls
in
there?
J
O
F
O
So
I
think
you
know
that's
our
big
Advantage
is
that
we
can
create
enough
incentive
for
developers
to
to
build
in
that
above
the
deeply
subsidized
range,
but
but
below
the
sky's.
The
limit
range.
B
Okay,
that's
all
we're
gonna
do
because
I
forgot
I
forgot.
We
had
to
do
Mufflers
tonight
too.
I,
don't
know
what
I
was
thinking.
Okay,
thank
you
for
being
here.
Thank
you
for
indulging
Us
in
understanding
this
model
and
the
trade-offs
that
we
have
in
front
of
us
really
appreciate
it.
Okay,
we
are
moving
on
to
item
D,
councilwoman
Villarreal.
B
You
pulled
this
item
request
for
approval
of
a
budget
amendment
resolution
to
fund
park,
ranger
salaries
and
to
create
three
positions
to
oversee
Park
Security
in
the
amount
of
232
692
dollars
from
FY
23
service
contracts
and
move
to
General
salaries
and
various
benefits,
and
we
have
our
parks
and
open
space
division.
Director,
Melissa
McDonald
with
us,
as
well
as
a
friend
I,
don't
know,
you'll
have
to
introduce
us.
Thank.
D
You
thank
you.
Thank
you,
madam
chair.
First
I
just
want
to
say
thanks
for
your
patience
and
also
want
to
thank
Jason
Sharp
who's
with
us
to
be
able
to
say
thank
you
for
all
the
works
that
you
do
with
the
park.
Ranger
program
and
I'm,
supportive
of
it
growing
and
I
wish.
I
would
have
been
able
to
clarify
these
points
beforehand,
but
I
have
another
job,
so
I'm
asking
you
now
I
just
wanted
to
make
sure
so
the
amount
of
money
that
we
have
that
is
going
to
be
utilized
from
service
contracts.
D
Does
that
mean
that
the
the
money
for
that
that
was
going
to
be
targeted
for
the
I'm
trying
to
think
of
the
security
companies?
R
Madam,
chair
counselors,
that
is
correct.
This
would
replace
our
low-level
security
with
the
Rangers,
but
we're
keeping
some
funds
for
the
higher
level
needs,
so
it
won't
replace
all
the
Security
Contracts,
just
a
low
level
ones,
and
we've
already
started
to
do
some
of
that
with
the
Rangers,
and
that
has
built
our
belief
that
this
is
a
good
direction
for
the
city
and
in
the
city's
best
interest.
D
Great
and
then
how
does
that?
How
does
those
those
two
kind
of
entities,
if
you
will
integrate
so
park
rangers?
Will
they
be
working
with
our
security
companies
in
some
way?
Will
there
be
like
some
kind
of
communication,
because
you
know
you
we
hear
from
you
hear
from
us,
you
hear
from
the
public
and
then
I
don't
know
if
the
security
companies
will
actually
be
helping,
inform
you
all
what's
happening,
sometimes
I
feel
like
there's
a
disconnect
with
them.
They
do
their
job
and
I.
D
R
Madam,
chair
counselors,
we're
finding
that
having
the
ranger
program
in
place
actually
has
increased
communication
with
constituent
surfaces
and
yourselves
as
well
as
other
divisions.
So
again
we
feel
this
is
going
to
work
wonderfully
Jason
works
with
the
contractors
he
works
with
the
police
department.
I
mean
he
works
with
other
divisions.
Right
now,
just
to
remind
you
Jason,
it's
a
park,
ranger
in
parks,
and
then
we
have
two
other
rangers
that
are
out
of
Children
and
Youth
Julie
Sanchez's
group.
R
So
this
would
be
expanding
this
to
a
total
of
Six
Rangers
so
before
within
parks
and
two
within
community
services.
So
you're
going
to
see
incredible
increase
of
communication
and
oversight
right
now,
when
we
we
did
an
assessment
of
our
Security
Contracts,
while
they
do
their
work
very
well,
they're
very
limited
in
what
they
can
do.
Our
Rangers
can
do
a
lot
more
for
the
city,
so
they're
going
to
be
again
replacing
the
kind
of
low-level
walkthroughs
of
parks,
locking
our
gates.
R
You
know
hurrying
people
along,
but
they're,
also
bringing
added
benefit
and
training
of
dealing
with
the
homeless
in
our
community
being
able
to
know
when
something
doesn't
look
right
because
they're
at
a
park
regularly
and
they're
at
it
at
all
times
of
day,
they're
going
to
be
able
to
do
other
things
for
the
parks
division
when
they're
in
the
Parks,
not
just
looking
at
that,
because
there's
a
lot
of
time
when
you're
doing
security
like
you're
just
walking
through
a
park
and
making
sure
things
are
okay.
R
Well,
why
can't
we
utilize
these
same
people
to
feed
that
information
back
to
park
so
that
we
can
serve
our
constituents
better?
This
bro,
this
swing
set
is
broken.
This
garbage
can
is
overflowing
this.
You
know
all
those
things
that
we
have
them
doing.
It's
just
adding
another
level
to
it
because
they
were
realizing.
They
were
doing
this
already
and
so
again
we
feel
like
this
is
a
wonderful
move
or
really
excited
about
it
and
I.
Think
I.
R
Think
you're
gonna
see
a
lot
better
communication
when
we
have
more
boots
on
the
ground
and
we
can
feed
that
back
to
you
and
again
we
work
with
these
contractors.
So
it's
not
either
or
we
work
great
with
them.
They
do
their
jobs
really
well.
This
is
just
adding
another
layer
of
support
for
the
parks
and
the
City.
D
R
Madam,
chair
and
counselors
I
I
do
want
to
just
thank
Jason
sharp
because
he
really
has
put
a
tremendous
amount
of
energy
and
attention
to
this
and
I
believe
that
he's
going
to
do
an
excellent
job,
helping
us
kind
of
go
into
that
next
level.
So
I
do
want
to
recognize
just
all
the
hard
work
he's
done.
Yes,.
B
We
have
a
motion
a
second
to
approve
this
item,
all
those
in
favor
aye
aye.
Anybody
opposed
anybody.
Abstaining.
That
motion
passes.
Thank
you
for
being
here
and
nice
to
meet
you.
B
Okay,
we
are
on
to
item
I,
H
I
J,
K,
L,
M,
N,
O
P,
request
for
approval
of
amendment
number
three
to
master
Services
agreement
item
18-0758
with
paymentus
to
eliminate
the
monthly
subscription
fees
of
seven
thousand
dollars
per
month
for
the
remainder
of
the
FY
23.
In
addition
to
FY
24
and
25,
we
have
Nancy,
Jimenez,
I,
believe
Maybe,
okay,
and
we
have
who
pulled
this.
You
did
counselor
Lindell.
C
It's
your
Nancy's,
not
here
so
I'm
gonna,
go
ahead
and
make
a
motion
to
approve
is.
B
There
a
second
Motion
in
a
second
is
there
a
discussion
all
those
in
favor
aye
aye.
Anybody
opposed
anybody
of
stating
that
motion
passes.
Okay,
I
we're
on
the
m
request
for
approval
hold
on
Prime
gov
request
for
approval
of
an
intergovernmental
Cooperative
purchasing
agreement
with
a
m
n.
I
a
is
that
an
acronym
partners
of
the
for
the
utilization
of
the
Cooperative
purchasing
program
administered
by
Omnia
partners
for
the
City
of
Santa
Fe.
We
have
Joanne
Lovato,
maybe
no,
no,
okay,.
C
Councilor
Lindell,
thank
you
thank
you
for
speaking
with
me
about
this
earlier
today.
Is
this
possibly
the
start
of
a
third
party
plan
review.
A
Oster,
yes,
okay,
Madam,
chair
and
councilor
Lindell.
That
is
one
one
procurement
that
we
would
look
at
utilizing
through
Omnia.
So,
with
regard
to
this
Cooperative
purchasing
organization
that
we'd
like
to
formalize
our
relationship
with,
we
have
done
done
projects
with
this
company
I'm.
Sorry,
this
organization
before
this
particular
item,
doesn't
have
a
cost.
C
I
appreciate
that
and
I
know
that
it's
not
just
as
simple
as
doing
that.
A
contract
like
that
I
think
it's
a
great
idea.
I
hope
we'll
move
forward
with
that,
and
that
in
doing
that,
we
realize
that
we're
going
to
have
to
have
a
fair
amount
of
effort
put
into
policies
and
procedures
and
some
kind
of
a
rollout
plan
for
having
third-party
review
of
plans.
But
I
really
do
hope
that
we
pursue
that
and-
and
that's
one
of
the
first
things
that
we
do
with
that.
So
I'll
move
to
approve.
Second.
D
A
quick
question
about
so
this
is
the
agreement,
and
then
we
once
we
have
it
start
well
when
they
start
structuring
it
for
the
third
party
plan
review
component,
then
we
will
see
that
in
more
detail,
correct.
A
D
B
We
have
a
motion
in
a
second
any
more
discussion,
all
those
in
favor
aye,
aye
aye.
Anybody
opposed
that
motion
passes.
Okay,
we
are
on
to
believe
in
request
for
approval
of
FY
2023
Grant
contract
with
Corporation
for
National
community
service.
In
the
total
amount
of
eighty
nine
thousand
fifty
eight
dollars
for
the
Foster,
grandparent
and
retired
senior
senior
companion,
volunteer
programs.
We
have
Anya
alleread
with
volunteer
program
manager
and
counselor
Lindell.
Yes,
yes,
yeah.
C
P
H
A
C
P
Federal
government
requires
us
to
do
two
separate
background
checks,
so
we
do
a
FBI
background
check,
fingerprint
and
then
we
do
a
it's
called
nschc.
So
it's
a
criminal
background
check.
It's
a
sex
offender
background
check,
so
we
do
have
to
abide
by
those
both
of
those
in
order
for
them
to
become
a
volunteer.
Okay,.
C
B
Motion
a
second
further
discussion,
all
those
in
favor
aye
aye.
Anybody
opposed
nobody
posed.
Anybody
abstain.
That
motion
passes:
okay
on
the
P
request
for
approval
amendment
number,
six
to
administrative
Services
agreement,
number
15-0757
with
Cigna
health
and
life
insurance
to
extend
the
term
to
June,
30th,
2025
or
city
of
Santa,
Fe,
employer-sponsored,
health
and
life
insurance
benefits,
and
we
have
Alvin
Valdez
with
the
benefits,
our
benefits
and
wellness
supervisor
and
Bernadette
Salazar.
Our
Human
Resources
Director
here
as
well
as
it
looks
like
our
folks
from
Cigna.
B
D
D
Am
you
know
it's
a
long
night
I
guess
I
was
just
curious
about
if
you
could
give
us
kind
of
walk
us
through
your
process
of
how
you
you
decide
to
then
move
and
forward
with
the
amendment
and
I'll
give
you
I
think
those
of
you
that
were
there
last
year,
when
we
were
talking
about
budgets,
our
last
budget
hearing,
there
was
a
suggestion
and
also
desire
for
some
of
us
to
be
able
to
look
at
potentially
reopening
the.
D
What
is
it
called?
Just,
not
RFP
I,
don't
know
if
it's
an
RFP
process
for
you
all,
but
just
to
consider
other
options
for
our
health
benefits
other
than
Cigna
and
so
I
guess
I
was
under
the
impression
that
you
all
were
going
to
be
moving
forward
with
looking
at
potentially
other
service
providers
and
opening
that
up
and-
and
so
this
is
telling
me
you're
not
considering
that
and
that
you're
wanting
to
extend
the
term
with
with
cygnaso
I.
D
F
Thank
you,
madam
chair
counselor,
via
Rayo.
Thank
you
for
that
question.
F
So,
as
we
begin
the
journey
to
start
the
RFP
process,
as
we
had
discussed,
our
procurement
team
notified
us
that,
under
our
state
procurement
code
that
we
were
able
to
extend
the
contract
for
two
additional
years,
the
piece
that
we're
requesting
an
extension
on
is
the
essentially
the
administrative
functions
to
process
our
claims
and
our
experience
with
Cigna
since
I've
been
here
and
based
on
working
with
Benefits
employees
and
other
employees,
the
service
that
we
get
from
Cigna
customer
service
and
the
additional
resources
that
we
have
for
employees.
F
What
is
beneficial
for
our
employees
and
their
families,
and
we
really
saw
that
through
the
course
of
the
pandemic,
with
all
the
mental
health
support
services
that
they
provided,
the
tele
counseling
telemedicine,
all
the
things
that
they
provided
during
that.
So
we
opted
to
go
ahead
and
utilize
that
section
of
the
procurement
code
and
request
the
extension
for
two
additional
years.
Based
on
that,
and
we
can
talk
about
what
portion
of
our
total
expenses
are
attributed
to
this.
F
What
we're
requesting,
but
again
the
the
service
that
we
received
from
Cigna
and
the
collaboration
and
partnership
over
the
course
of
the
last
several
years
have
been
really
beneficial
for
our
employees
and
their
families,
because
we're
self-insured,
it's
really
the
the
way
we
set
up
our
plans
is
based
on.
F
You
know
what
we
discuss
with
our
benefits
advisory
committee
and
what
ultimately
you
all
approve,
so
that
really
is
dependent
on
what
is
decided
at
your
level,
but
that
wouldn't
change
really,
regardless
of
what
carrier
we
would
be
using
and
I
don't
know
if
our
team
from
man
has
any
other
thoughts
that
they
may
want
to
add.
But
I
hope
that
answered
to
your
question.
Yeah.
D
F
Madam
chair
this
and
counselor
via
real.
This
is
to
continue
our
partnership
with
Cigna
about
how
we
design
our
plan,
regardless.
If
we
were
with
Cigna
or
another
company,
is
dependent
on
how
we
design
that.
H
F
We
would
still
be
utilizing
Cigna
if
this
is
approved,
but
we're
not
talking
about
any
plan
design
changes
at
this
low.
At
this
time
we
would
only
be
we're
only
requesting
an
extension
of
the
agreement
with
Cigna,
so
that
would
come
annually
like
we
usually
do
probably
like
February
March
when
we
start
gearing
up
for
the
budget
season.
D
D
So
I
realized
with
the
procurement
that
it
will
allow
to
extend
that
term.
I
guess
I
I
just
think
it
makes
sense
to
see
what
else
is
out
there.
We
haven't
done
that
in
what.
H
D
10,
no,
it
was
2015
right.
Yes,
so
we
haven't
done
it
in
a
you
know
a
good
Port
good
amount
of
time,
and
then
things
have
changed
with
with
different
health
providers.
So
I
guess
I'm
always
interested
like
what
else
can
other
health
insurance
companies
provide
for
us
and
what?
How
would
they
compete
with
Cigna?
How
are
they
not
because
you
know,
as
we
move
along
I,
just
hear
a
lot
of
grumblings
about
some
of
the
things
that
Cigna
is
doing.
D
I
mean
there's
some
things
that
you
said
they
are
doing
well
and
I.
Guess
I'm
I'm,
just
thinking
that
it
would
be
good
to
have
them
have
another
chance,
obviously
to
be
with
us,
but
also
give
other
groups
a
chance
to
show
what
they
can
do
and
and
meet.
You
know
kind
of
what
we.
What
we
need
and
I
know
that
the
the
design
changes
but
I'm
just
always
curious
about
like
competitively.
We
should
be
putting
I
just
think.
D
What
are
we
missing
out
on?
What
are
what
is
it
going
to
do
better
I
just
really
want
us
to
to
think
about
that
and
I
guess:
I
didn't
want
to
wait
two
years
to
do
that.
I
was
like
ready
for
us
to
kind
of
start
opening
up
our
considerations,
so
we
could
see
what's
out
there.
I
don't
know
if
aeon
had
anything
to
share
about
that.
If
there's
any
insight
that
you've
seen
or
and
if
you
work
with
other
companies,
Actually
I,
don't
even
know
that
answer.
I
Madam,
chairman
counselors,
thank
you
for
this
opportunity,
so
aeon
as
a
consultant.
We
work
with
many
different
providers
in
in
the
New
Mexico
market
for
medical
providers.
It
is
a
little
bit
more
limited
on
what
is
available.
We
have
four
basically
four
major
players
which.
H
I
There
are
a
lot
of
things
to
consider
when
changing
a
carrier
partner
like
that
and
so
I
hear
that
some
of
them,
your
employees,
have
had
concerns
with
with
Cigna,
but
overall
most
have
been
pretty
satisfied
with
the
coverage
when
we
make
a
vendor
change.
There's
a
lot
of
things
that
need
to
be
taken
into
consideration
and
what
you
are
having
Cigna
do
today
is
to
administer
your
plan.
You
all
have
created
your
plan
designs,
what
your
employees
pay
for
a
time
of
service.
You
know
their
co-pays,
they
pay
or
deductibles.
They
pay.
I
That
is
all
decisions
made
by
by
you
and
Cigna
is
administering
the
plan.
According
to
those
designs
by
partnering
with
Cigna,
you
also
gain
access
to
their
network
of
providers
and
with
others
in
the
marketplace.
Their
network
will
align
very
closely
to
what
you
have
available
through
United
Healthcare.
I
There
will
be
some
differences
with
Presbyterian
health
plan.
It
will
closely
align,
but
there
will
be
some
differences.
There
would
be
more
differences
with
Blue
Cross
Blue
Shield
because
of
networking
differences
in
in
the
Albuquerque
Metro
area.
I
Another
thing
to
consider
when
making
a
change
is
there
can
be
a
lot
of
disruption
for
employees
in
that
under
Pharmacy
care.
Each
each
vendor
has
their
own
primary
formulary
listing
what
is
covered
and
what
is
covered
at
the
different
co-pay
levels.
When
you
change
to
a
different
provider,
that
will
will
change,
and
you
will
have
some
employees
who
will
be
very
happy
because
their
co-pays
may
go
down,
but
you
will
have
some
employees
who
their
prescription
they
take,
will
move
up
a
tier,
and
so
they
will
have
a
greater
out
of
pocket
expense.
I
So
that's
just
some
disruption
that
we'll
encounter
at
time
of
change.
The
other
thing
that
can
happen
is
the
carriers
have
different
models
around
their
prior
authorization,
Pro
process
and
that's
for
like
approving,
MRIs
or
other
scan
surgeries,
and
so
that
can
also
create
some
dissatisfaction
for
employees
upon
a
change,
so
I
mean
in
the
marketplace.
I
You
know
the
biggest
change
we
would
see
is
some
differences
in
network
opportunities
and
some
differences
in
the
formulary
that
is
available
to
your
employees.
Now
in
the
overall
cost
Arena,
you
know
your
pain,
Cigna,
Administration
costs
to
administer
your
plan
and
then
the
majority
of
your
cost
is
your
claims
dollars.
You
know
the
what
your
employees
are
going
out
and
accessing
care.
I
That's
the
vast
majority
of
the
cost
so
from
a
cost
competitive
perspective,
you're
not
going
to
see
a
huge
difference
in
the
administration
cost
that
you
would
pay
for
to
Cigna
versus
United,
Healthcare
versus
Blue,
Cross
or
or
Presbyterian.
They
would
all
be
fairly
close
to
each
other.
The
thing
that
needs
to
be
monitored
most
closely
is
their
contracted
discounts
with
the
providers,
because
that's
going
to
have
the
biggest
impact
on
your
health
care
spending.
I
Overall,
our
experience
in
this
market
they're
all
fairly
close
to
each
other,
and
it
does
vary
just
based
on
the
type
of
claims
you
have
coming
in,
but
Todd
I
don't
know.
If
you
have
more
insight
to
talk
about
discounts
and
your.
D
I
know
it's
not
the
package
that
we're
going
to
be
talking
about
now,
but
there
was
in
the
contract
like
some
of
the
things
that
will
be
saved
because
they
won't
change.
They'll
stay
consistent
up
until
the
the.
What
do
you
call
it
the
extended
time
frame
to
to
2020
what
is
it
2025.
Q
Madam,
chair
counselor,
via
real
about
90
of
your
plan
costs
are
claims,
as
Don
said,
those
would
be
relatively
unchanged
regardless
of
carrier
chosen.
10
of
your
costs
are
Administration
and
stop.
Loss
covers
Cigna
has
guaranteed
the
administration
fee
for
the
two
years,
so
that
will
not
increase.
But
again
we
won't
see
substantial
changes
by
moving
to
a
to
another
carrier
in
overall
costs,
as
Don
said,
the
benefit
design
your
co-pays
coinsurance
deductibles,
those
are
decided
upon
by
the
city,
so
that
is
not
Cigna
specific.
D
Q
Madam,
chair,
counselor,
Via
Real,
yes,
Dex,
stop,
loss
coverage
is
currently
with
Cigna.
Their
increases
have
been
very
reasonable.
Over
the
past
eight
years
the
average
stop
loss
increase
is
in
the
15
to
20
percent
range
per
year,
as
Cigna
has
has
never
exceeded
the
amount
no
requested
anything
above
that
amount,
so
they've
been
reasonable.
If
they
are
not,
we
can
certainly
look
I
know
at
an
alternative,
stop-loss
carrier
that
doesn't
require
us
to
leave
Cigna
on
the
administration.
We
can
have.
A
third
party
handle
the
stop-loss
coverage,
if
necessary,
at.
F
Madam,
chair,
councilor,
VIA
Rail.
This
would
be
a
topic
that
we
would
discuss
with
the
benefits
advisory
committee
because
it's
based
on
our
claims
experience.
So
when
we
have
a
couple
more
months
of
experience
that
we
can
evaluate,
then
we'll
have
those
numbers
and
we'll
be
discussing
as
we
have
in
the
past.
We
meet
with
them
more
frequently
when
we're
approaching
the
budget
season
and
then
ultimately,
it'll
come
for
you
all
for
a
decision.
D
D
Right,
that's
all
I
have
thank
you
very
much.
B
Motion
in
a
second
any
further
discussion,
all
those
in
favor
aye
aye
anybody
opposed
anybody.
Abstaining.
That
motion
passes
okay
last
item
before
we
do
Mufflers
Q
request
for
approval
of
an
on-call
service
contract
with
Sandbar
construction,
Corp
for
city-wide,
roadway
marking
and
pay
payment
stripping,
not
to
exceed
two
hundred
seventy
one
thousand
ninety
three
dollars
and
seventy
five
cents
inclusive
of
nmgrt
annually,
though
July
30th
2020,
oh
through
July,
30th,
2026
and
Regina
wheeler
here
for
councilor
lindell's
questions.
C
Thank
you,
Miss
wheeler
for
being
here,
I'm
sorry.
This
took
so
long.
Considering
the
Simplicity
of
my
questions,
the
city
has
a
striping
machine,
correct
it.
S
S
Yes,
counselor
lindell's,
Sorry,
Miss,
Madam,
chair,
counselor,
Lindell.
Also,
you
know
the
public
works
department
across
the
board.
We
really
try
to
keep
on-call
contracts
in
place
for
almost
every
essential
service
that
we
provide
to
give
us
a
backup
and
more
capacity
if
needed,
and
you
know
like,
for
instance,
sometimes
the
governing
body
approves
us
a
suite
of
pavement
Rehabilitation
projects
and
those,
and
sometimes
it's
better
to
work
with
a
striping
contractor
when
those
are
finished
and
get
those
done.
S
So
we
use
a
full-time
equivalents
as
our
first
you
know
way
to
deliver
Services.
We
also
use
Professional
Services
and
then,
of
course
you
know
contract
labor
if,
if
necessary,
so
it's
really
good
for
us
to
have
options
for
providing
the
essential
services
and
yes,
we
will
have
a
paint
truck.
We
hope
soon.
C
B
B
And
I
would
be
interested
in
discussing
that
Amendment,
councilor,
Lindell,
I
think
you're,
one
of
the
main
sponsors
I,
don't
know
what,
if
you
have
a
way
you
want
to
handle
this
or
anything
you
want
to
say
about
it.
C
Or
no
I
haven't
been
because
this
is
the
only
committee
that
I
serve
on.
This
is
the
first
time
I've
seen
a
committee
good
point
and
between
when
it
was
introduced,
and
now
it's
been
postponed
and
postponed
and
forwarded
with
no
recommendation,
but
in
looking
at
the
amendment
that
has
been
proposed,
I'm
completely
in
support
of
that
and
so
I.
Don't
think
I
need
to
say
much
more
than
that
I
didn't
I
didn't
pull
it.
D
Okay,
yes,
I
would
like
someone
to
go
through
it,
because
there
were
sections
that
did
not
make
sense
to
me.
Okay
and
then
there
was
an
presentation
that
was
added
I,
don't
know
who
got
that
presentation,
but
that's
new
and
I.
Don't
know
if
there
was
staff
that
was
going
to
go
through
any
details
of
that
presentation,
because
I
haven't
seen
it.
B
It
looks
that
way.
No
I
think
it
is
available
on
demand
on
Zoom,
but
we
don't
have
anybody
here
tonight
to
present
it.
B
So
the
amendment
there's
a
red,
let's
see,
let
me
find
the
red
line
yeah,
so
I
think
it's
easier.
If
we
look
at
the
Red
Line
This
is
an
amendment
being
proposed
by
myself
and
councilor
cassette
to
address
a
number
of
issues
that
I
think
we
have
had
come
up
in
the
hearings
that
we
have
had
on
this
bill
and
I,
don't
know
Council
Casa.
Do
you
want.
D
To
just
get
a
p
clarifying
piece
sure.
B
D
B
In
here,
so
this
this
cement,
so
that
I
think
the
amendment
you
saw
in
quality
of
life
and
you
may
have
the
history
better.
Council
cassid
is
a
fix
it
ticket
which
is
Incorporated
in
this
one,
but
it
seemed
easier
just
to
roll
them
all
up
into
one
rather
than
to
have
a
whole
bunch,
because
they
address
I
think
the
concerns
that
we've
heard
at
the
other
committees.
H
J
R
J
S
B
Good
looking
young
man
there
I'm
a
little
C
all
right,
so
we
do.
Thank
you,
DC
chaplain
for
being
here.
Do
you
want
to
ask
questions
of
him?
Do
you
want
him
to
walk
through
that
presentation?
H
H
D
T
H
T
B
A
T
Not
sure
if
you're,
the
only
the
only
presentation
that
I
know
of
I
think
that
may
have
been
sent
at
some
point,
because
that's
kind
of
made
its
way
through
the
Committees
is
that
I
believe
most
everybody
has
seen
it,
but
I'm
not
sure
if
that's
the
exact
same
presentation
or
if
Jesse
included
something
different
I.
T
If
you'd,
like
I,
mean
I,
have
it
available,
I
wasn't
planning
on
it,
but
I
can
pull
it
up.
Two
seconds
and
I'll
break.
D
Because
he
we've
already
gone
through
the
three
cities,
same
goals,
different
models
and
other
cities,
I
think
the
one
the
information
that
was
new
was
the
current
enforcement.
The
numbers
were
updated
and
then
the
offender
statistics.
H
T
D
H
T
Absolutely
so
this
particular
one
is
just
regarding
the
police,
the
current
and
past
enforcement.
As
you
mentioned,
there
were
some
updates
to
when
it
went
to
Public
Works
versus
quality
of
life,
I
believe
just
some
questions
that
came
out
of
quality
of
life
that
were
updated
to
be
added
into
public
works,
and
that
was
just
to
include
more
years
going
back
to
2018
I.
T
Believe
the
original
one
didn't
go
back
as
far
and
more
of
an
explanation
as
to
why
there
was
a
spike
in
2020
with
the
57
citations,
which
was
contributed
to
the
slow
and
quiet
phase
one
and
two,
and
you
can
see
the
dates
of
operation
there,
June
24th
to
July
and
then
again
in
August
to
September,
which
accounted
for
those
couple
of
or
that
one
year
of
a
kind
of
an
influx
just
was
provided
by
the
Name
Escapes
Me
Now.
T
That
Kyle
has
there
with
him
and
in
turn,
can't
remember
his
name
right
at
the
moment,
but
he
was
able
to
dig
in
some
of
the
research
and
help
provide
some
of
this.
And
what
this
does
is
break
down.
T
Offender
statistics
going
back
I
believe
in
2015
to
2022
up
to
the
current
time
of
the
last
Public
Works
I
believe
this
kind
of
encompasses
the
age
of
the
offender
of
the
driver
of
the
vehicle,
but
the
majority
of
them
at
what
is
about
87.5
percent
mean
between
the
ages
of
15
and
31
and
then
kind
of
trickling
down
after
that.
T
The
next
slide
here,
just
kind
of
represents
the
offender
statistics
by
vehicle
model
year.
There
was
some
concerns
and
I
believe
both
quality
of
life
and
Public
Works
with
the
vehicle
year,
which
I
see
is
in
the
amendment
now,
which
is,
which
is
great.
T
This
kind
of
breaks
down
the
actual
Vehicles
by
year,
which
ones
are
seeing
more
of
the
citations
here
2011
to
2015.
We
see
it
has
about.
You
know
27
percent
of
the
citations
2006
to
2010
and
2001
2005
also,
so
they
kind
of
break
out
pretty
evenly
there,
and
one
of
the
concerns
was
the
older
model
vehicles.
So
we're
talking
the
the
pre-1960
vehicles
that
maybe
had
installed
Factory
Mufflers
that
were
not.
T
They
couldn't
reduce
the
noise
that
was
coming
out
of
the
vehicle
because
it's
a
factory
installed
Muffler
that
counselor
Lee
Garcia
discussed
a
little
bit
with
his
knowledge
of
vehicles,
and
we
saw
that
there
was
nothing
that
went
back
that
far
as
far
as
we
could
tell
the
earliest
was
in
1979
vehicle,
and
this
last
here
is
the
the
last
addition
to
since
quality
of
life
counselor,
and
this
is
going
to
be
the
citations
that
were
broken
down
by
their
location
and
again,
that's
kind
of
going
from
2015
to
2022.
T
It's
color
coded.
You
can
kind
of
see
the
breakdown,
the
majority
of
us,
where
you
expect
it
in
the
in
the
North
and
the
plaza
area
and
down
in
the
Cerritos
Corridor
and
then
again
down
into
the
airport
road
area
as
well.
Those
are
also
areas
where
you
know
we
get
the
majority
of
the
complaints
as
well
as
phases,
one
and
two
for
slow
and
quiet.
Those
were
focused
in
the
northern
Plaza
area,
as
well
as
the
the
airport
airport
road
areas,
Cerritos
corridor.
T
I
believe
you've
seen
this
one.
It
may
have
changed
slightly
in
the
data
just
because
this
was
in
October.
Now
we're
you
know
getting
to
the
end
of
November,
but
this
just
kind
of
shows
the
dispositions
that
Municipal
Court
as
they
stand
currently,
as
you
can
see,
there's
at
least
I
believe
two
that
were
dismissed,
kind
of
a
muffler
eclipse
or
the
individual
fixed
it.
T
The
judge
allowed
that
dismissed
it,
which
is
kind
of
to
the
point
of
the
amendment
tonight
with
I,
believe
counselor
Cassis
was
the
original
amendment
to
allow
the
kind
of
Fix-It
ticket
for
lack
of
a
better
term.
You
can
see
that
15
were
still
pending,
so
there's
a
large
amount
of
those
27
cases
that
were
still
pinning
and
we
don't
have
a
disposition
on
just
quite
yet-
and
this
still
is,
this
is
ex,
with
the
exception
of
the
fix
it
nope.
T
Actually,
this
one's
added
I'm,
sorry
I'll,
correct
myself
there,
so
this
is
just
kind
of
how
the
the
citation
can
roll
out
from
A
Fine
once
there's
a
fine.
Some
of
the
Alternatives
would
be
community
service
again
with
the
Fix-It
ticket
that
would
negate
the
fine.
They
would
have
to
pay
the
fine
as
long
as
they
could
fix
it.
T
A
week
within
60
days
is
what
the
amendment
says
is
jail
possible
is
a
question
that
was
asked
jail
is
not
possible
on
the
front
end,
however,
if
they
did
not
show
for
their
court
hearing,
they
would
receive
a
summons
and
then
subsequently,
if
they
did
not
show
up
for
the
summons,
they
could
be
issued
a
warrant
that
would
be
available
or
they
could
be
arrested.
T
And
then
the
failure
to
comply
would
be
if
they
did
not
I
guess
rectify
the
issue.
They
have
a
hearing
set
and
then
again
I'm
sorry
the
same
thing
with
someone's
fire
to
complying
that
someone's
one
of
the
same.
So
what
I
just
explained?
They
failed
to
attend
the
response
issue
and
then
the
other
site
here
just
working
kind
of
towards
a
resolution.
If
they
do
show
up
to
the
hearing
the
Summers
and
with
that
stop
sharing
there.
That
would
be
the
the
rest
of
the
PowerPoint
I
guess
that
was
updated.
D
Thank
you
so
much
DC
Chaplin.
It
was
helpful
just
to
go
through
it,
because
I
hadn't
seen
it
and
I
guess
what
I
gleaned
from
the
information
is.
D
Our
offenders
are
young
and
the
majority
of
the
cars
that
are
being
modified.
Our
newer
models,
I'm
saying
like
30
to
well
the
20
21
to
2025,
sorry,
20,
21,
sorry
2011
to
2015.
D
those
are
the
majority
of
them
and
then
it
kind
of
goes
down
close
to
that
amount.
So
we're
looking
at
some
not
really
that
many
you
new
models,
but
not
very
old,
so
I
guess
that
I
don't
know.
M
Chair
Romero
counselor,
with
the
deferral
the
judge
is
putting
off
basically
punishment.
Okay,
usually
there'll,
be
some
some
conditions
on
that
deferral
could
be
fixed
this
within
60
days
and
then
come
back
and
brief
improve
at.
M
If
the
defendant
has
completed
everything
that
they
were
supposed
to
in
the
case
gets
gets
closed
down
and
dismissed,
so
it
wouldn't
necessarily
show
that
they
have
a.
M
There
could
be
a
few
reasons
why
a
case
would
be
pending.
It
could
be
that
you
know
where
the
the
city
is
waiting
for
Discovery
to
come
in
so
evidence
to
come
in.
That
could
be
one
reason
that
it
would
delay
it.
It
could
be
that
it's
pending,
because
either
myself
or
the
officer
Prosecuting
the
case
is
giving
the
defendant
a
little
bit
of
time
to
fix
the
fix
the
muffler
and
then
get
into
compliance
before
we
get
a
final
adjudication
on
that
case.
So.
D
In
this
case,
in
the
current
situation,
it's
kind
of
up
to
the
judge,
really
they
have
a
lot
of
not
flexibility,
but
they
have
discretion
discretion.
That's
the
word.
Thank
you.
M
Chairman
worth
counselor,
I
I
think
that's
clear.
The
judge
does
have
a
fair
amount
of
discretion.
I
think
the
the
prosecutor
also
has
a
fair
amount
of
discretion
and,
like
I,
said
earlier,
whether
it's
myself
or
if
it's
a
police
officer,
that's
Prosecuting,
the
case
I
think
they
have
a
a
good
amount
of
discretion
and
working
with
a
particular
defendant,
ultimately
to
get
into
compliance
with
the
but
but
yeah
I
think
you
are
right
that
the
judge
does
have
in
in
terms
of
sentencing
a
fair
amount
of
discretion.
B
B
B
In
in
thinking
and
experiencing
the
problem
that
we're
having
it
is
clear
to
me
that
some
of
the
problem
is
with
factory
installed,
what
we've
defined
as
a
factory
installed
exhaust
option,
it's
not
that
people
are
necessarily
altering
their
mufflers,
it's
just
that
they're
buying
them
with
this
already
installed,
and
we
weren't
we
weren't
addressing
this,
and
in
doing
some
other
reading,
it's
clear
that
local
governments
are
starting
to
crack
down
on
this.
So
if
you
have
a
Ford,
Mustang
or
there's
a
particular
kind
of
Porsche
SUV,
you
actually
have
a
button.
B
B
Some
cars
can
go
160
120
miles
an
hour,
and
yet
we
don't
allow
that
level
of
speed
in
the
city.
And
so
what
we're
saying
here
is,
if
you
use
this
option
in
your
car,
this
factory
installed
exhaust
option
you
and
you
are
ticketed
for
it.
You
can
be
fined
and
there
is
no
Fix-It
ticket
remedy
on
this
one,
because,
if
you're,
if
you're
using
that
feature,
we
do
not
want
you
using
that
feature
in
this
community.
J
I'll
chime
in
real,
fast
and
just
to
clarify
this
is
this
is
an
option
so
when
they
buy
it,
they
can
buy
it
at
factory,
but
it
is
also
you
know.
They're
worth
mentioned,
there
are
some
cars
or
vehicles
that
are
are
louder
and
they
just
come
that
way
and
there's
not
this
like
push
a
button
to
make
my
car
louder
at
this
exact
moment.
B
So
we're
adding
that
as
something
that
you
could
be
fined
for
so
that's
what
that
first
and
we're
defining
that
with
the
factory
installed
exhaust
option,
what
it
means.
So,
then,
if
you
go
down
in
the
red
line,
we're
on
page
two,
this
section
c
was
crossed
out
of
the
bill
as
it
was
introduced.
B
Mostly,
what
we're
doing
is
we're
putting
it
back
in
it's
existing
law.
Every
registered
gasoline-fueled
motor
vehicle
manufactured
or
assembled
commencing
with
the
1968
models
shall
at
all
times
be
equipped
and
maintained
in
good
working
order
with
the
factory
installed
devices
and
equipment
or
their
plate,
Replacements
designed
to
prevent,
reduce
or
control
exhaust
emissions
or
air
pollution.
That
is
existing
law,
we're
putting
it
back
in.
It
is
also
state
law.
J
Of
the
reasons
that
we
really
wanted
to
put
this
back
in
is
this
to
councilman
vaderelle's
Point
earlier
about
the
age
of
the
car
and
that
conversation
around
older
cars.
So
this
does
talk
about
cars
1968
or
later,
and
the
fact
that
there
would
be
some
cars
that
would
have
been
produced
earlier
that
you
may
not
have
a
factory
equivalent
for
anymore.
B
And
that
are
probably,
by
definition,
going
to
be
louder
because
they're,
older
I
I
think
I
used
the
example
in
the
public
works.
Public
Utilities
meeting
I
have
a
1953
Chevy
pickup
truck.
It
is
louder
than
current
pickup
trucks-
probably
are
it
just
is
it's
just
old
and
so
I?
Don't
think?
That's
what
we
want
to
be
ticketing
and
so
we're
just
trying
to
set
a
line,
and
it's
state
law
and
its
current.
B
It's
actually
current
city
ordinance
replicating
current
state
law,
but
the
part
we
added
in
here
comes
from
the
noise
ordinance
and
it
says
such
devices
or
equipment
shall
not
be
modified
in
a
manner
which
will
amplify
or
increase
the
noise
emitted
by
the
motor
of
such
vehicle
above
that
emitted
by
the
muffler
of
the
type
originally
installed
on
the
vehicle.
B
This
is
coming
from
the
noise
ordinance
we're
just
bringing
it
over
to
the
uniform
traffic
ordinance
and,
basically,
you
know
acknowledging
that
different
cars
when
they
were
built
have
different
Muffler
noises
and
if
it's,
what
it
was
when
it
was
bought.
That's
fine
section,
D,
the
use
of
factory
installed.
Exhaust
options
is
prohibited
and
violates
this
ordinance
if
the
noise
emitted
exceeds
the
decibel
level
reading
described
in
paragraph
H
below.
B
So,
if
you
go
to
paragraph
h,
we
are
you're
taking
that
we
lifted
this
from
the
noise
ordinance
where
currently,
our
police
officers
have
the
ability
to
issue
tickets.
They
don't
under
the
noise
ordinance.
But
what
we're
saying
with
this
decibel
level
is
we're
putting
it
in
here
so
that
we
know
what
excessive
noise
is.
It's
a
way
of
defining
what
excessive
noise
is,
but
we're
putting
it
in
here
to
be
utilized
either
as
an
affirmative
defense.
So
if
I
were
to
get
stopped
and
I,
don't
think
my
car
is
excessively
noisy.
B
I
could
use
that
as
a
defense
that
I
shouldn't
have
been
given
this
ticket,
it
is
also
to
be
used
in
the
Fix-It
ticket,
so
you
could
use
it
to
say.
Okay,
I
fixed
my
ticket
and
I
am
now
below
the
decibel
level
that
we
have
set
here.
It's
not
intended
that
this
be
used.
We're
not
envisioning
that
police
officers
will
have
the
equipment
to
in
real
time
know
what
the
decibel
level
is.
B
It's
it's
more
to
be
used
after
the
citation
is
issued
in
the
court
process,
either
to
get
a
Fix-It
ticket
or
as
an
affirmative,
a
defense
that
you
shouldn't
have
been
ticketed
in
the
first
place:
councilor
Castle
I,
don't
know!
If
you
want
to
add
to
that,
because
it's
a
little
bit
complicated.
J
I
think
you
captured
all
of
it.
I
think.
The
important
piece,
though,
that
I
want
to
make
sure
is
not
lost,
is
that
these
are
decibel
levels
that
are
already
set
in
city
code,
so
they're,
not
these
are
not
new
levels.
They
just
did
not
exist
in
the
uto.
They
were
over
in
the
the
noise
ordinance,
which
is
part
of.
A
B
So
this
is
current
city
ordinance
in
and
we're
just
moving
it
to
be
part
of
the
uniform
traffic
ordinance
F.
Let's
see,
I
think,
let's
see
yeah
so
f
or
a
first
offense
under
paragraphs
a
b
or
c
above
a
person
shall
not
be
convicted
if
repairs
are
affected
on
the
motor
vehicle
and
the
vehicle
passes
a
compliance
test
within
60
days
of
the
citation
being
issued
and
you
go
to
G,
the
city
manager
or
the
city.
B
B
You
know
whether
you're,
in
compliance
through
the
compliance
test,
using
the
decibel
levels,
will
be
established
by
the
city
manager,
and
this
section
is
allowing
for
that
and
then
H
is
basically
the
decibel
levels
and
and
that
of
what
we're
saying
it
is
excessive
noise,
so
that
it's
not
arbitrary,
there's
actually
a
standard
for
what
we
think
is
excessive
noise
and
again
that
comes
from
our
noise
ordinance.
This
is
existing
law
for
motor
vehicles
already
in
the
city,
ordinances
and
then
I
think
that's
it.
L
Thank
you,
madam
chair.
Just
on
on
the
amendment.
Do
we
know
what,
year
or
years
and
what
type
of
vehicles
this
factory
installed
option
is
available
in.
B
No
it's
for
a
variety
of
years,
I.
J
Do
believe
it's
a
more
recent
invention,
so
it's
not
going
to
be
something
pre-1968.
I
think
that
this
is
something
that
has
come
across,
maybe
in
the
last
decade
or
so
so.
J
Able
this
that's
a
great
question
about
how
they
would
I
think
there
would
it
would
be.
You
know
the
officer
should
be
able
to
site
based
on
kind
of
what
was
the
language
that
we
used
before
experience
and
training
to
understand
whether
or
not
this
button
has
been
utilized.
J
These
people
would
have
the
opportunity
to
fight
that
in
court
and
whether
or
not
that
would
be
enough
evidence
and
us
you
know,
taking
the
measure
and
the
officer
coming
in
and
stating
that
this
is
something
that
they
have
reason
to
believe.
I.
Imagine
that
there
might
be
some
additional
training
that
the
officers
would
have
to
you
know
hear
these
different
cards.
B
T
Well,
no,
it's
a
good
question
chair
and
counselor
I
think
it
kind
of
goes
down
to
the
not
a
lot
of
the
Amendments
here.
Change
existing
law
other
than
adding
in
I
think
some
exceptions
that
are
necessary
that
we
learned
through
the
different
committees
and
in
this
particular
case
I
think
it
goes
back
to
the
training
experience.
There's
a
distinct
noise,
I
I've
myself
heard
the
the
Mustang
version
of
this
I.
Don't
know
what
you're
the
particular
vehicle
wasn't
just
by
happenstance.
T
That
I
had
a
discussion
about
it,
but
it's
a
clear
noise
difference
so
whether
that
meets
the
decibel
level
or
not
I'm,
not
sure
I'm
gonna
have
a
decimal
reader,
obviously,
but
I
think
I
think
most
of
the
the
officer's
articulation
through
training
experience
on
any
Muffler,
regardless
of
they're
not
going
to
stop
the
vehicle
based
on
your
make
model,
Etc
they're
going
to
be
stopping
it
based
on
the
uniqueness
of
the
loud,
excessive,
loud
noise
coming
from
it,
and
it
will
be
on
based
on
that.
T
T
Okay,
look
I
have
this
button
in
my
car,
and
this
is
this
model
year
that
has
this
particular
thing
in
for
Kyle
as
a
prosecutor
to
be
trained
up
and
schooled
through
this
process
that
that
does
exist,
and
you
know
if
they
used
it
during
this
particular
incident,
it'll
be
based
on
the
option
articulation
of
the
real
facts
at
the
time
that
it
took
place,
there's
really
no
other
unfortunate
way
to
or
fortunately
to
grab
that
decibel
sound
right
at
that
moment
and
determine
hey.
L
All
right-
and
we
don't-
you
said
we
don't
have
a
way
to
measure
decibels
currently
correct,
correct
all
right,
and
that
goes
for
the
current
noise
ordinance
that
we
do
have
if
I
remember
calling,
because
one
of
my
constituents
was
complaining
about
loud
music
at
night
and
we
had
no
way
to
measure
decibels.
So
the
noise
ordinance
really
has
no
no
way
of
really
determining.
If,
if
somebody
reaches
a
certain
level,
that's
currently
in
ordinance
right
within.
T
The
police
department,
no
I,
was
I
believe
if
it's
one
of
the
parks
comes
to
mind
and
it
might
be
Rose
Park
that
there
was
some
drumming
or
something
that
was
happening
there
and
I
believe
there
was
City
staff
from
one
of
the
Departments
I'm,
not
sure
if
it
was
code
enforcement
or
something
else
that
did
have
a
decibel
reader
and
did
take
a
a
reading
over
there
and
determined
that
the
actual
was
not
violating
in
violation
of
the
noise
ordinance.
T
This
particular
case
the
way
that
the
ordinance
is
written,
which
I
can
appreciate,
is
they
it's
we've
had
this
discussion
back
and
forth
that
it's
not
reasonable
for
an
officer
in
the
field
to
use
a
decimal
reader
to
to
capture
the
decimal
reading.
However,
it
is
definitely
during
the
compliance
test.
It
is
reasonable,
so
the
officers,
the
way
that
the
current
law
is
written,
as
is
as
it
is
in
the
books,
is
if
the
officer
believes
it
to
be
accessible
unusual.
T
They
can
cite
the
individual
to
court
and
then
upon
now,
with
the
way
that
the
amendment
is
written,
a
compliance
test
can
be
done
by
Municipal
Court
staff
in
a
safe
setting
and
say:
okay,
let's
you
know,
they're
gonna
have
to
have
their
staff
and
I
think
Kyle
has
mentioned
this-
that
he
believed
Municipal
Court
would
be
the
best
fit
for
that.
As
far
as
having
a
decimal
reader
they're
at
the
court
able
to
take
a
compliance
test
right
there
and
I'm
not
sure
what
that
entails.
T
Yet
I'm,
not
I'm,
not
schooled
up
on
that
side
of
it,
but
that's
how
I
would
Envision
I
believe
it
happening.
L
I
appreciate
the
amendment.
I
just
have
a
an
issue,
I
think
with
the
ticket
being
issued
without
a
decimal
reading,
and
then
the
individual
have
to
do
a
compliance
test.
That
requires
a
decibel
meter
or
a
way
to
read
decibels.
L
That
quite
doesn't
seem
fair
to
me.
Counselors
on
item
or
letter
h,
a
line
10.
Can
you
explained
to
me
that,
if
how
if
I'm
doing
a
compliance
test,
what
does
it
mean
that
the
nearest
Lane
being
monitored.
B
So,
just
real,
quick
to
your
earlier
point,
I
think
the
idea
would
be
that
we
would
be
purchasing
something
that
could
read
a
decibel
reader
and
I
think
our
decibel
readers
are
currently
in
land
use,
but
obviously,
who
the
city
manager
is
part
of
creating
a
compliance
test.
B
Would
that
may
require
that
we
actually
purchase
more
of
these
machines?
Able
to
do
decibel
readings?
As
to
your
question
on
line
10
I
can't
tell
you
all
I
can
tell
you
is
this.
Is
current
law
and
it
was
taken
verbatim
from
the
noise
ordinance
and
I
assume
that
when
they
did
this,
they
had
a
reason
for
this
language
and
I.
Don't
know
what
it
was
because
I
didn't
put
it.
L
B
And
I
guess
I
mean
what
I
would
extract
from
it
is
from
this
from
the
near
side
of
the
nearest
Lane
being
monitored,
so
I
I
think
it's
probably
kind
of
like
a
speed
gun
right.
If,
if
I'm,
if
I'm
pointing
a
radar
detector
at
a
at
a
car,
I
don't
want
it
to
be.
You
know
two
cars
over
that
and
possible
interference
from
one
of
those
cars.
B
I
think
what
maybe
this
language
is
intimating
is
that
you
have
to
be
in
proximity
to
the
car
to
know
that
you're
getting
the
best
decibel
level
reading
that
you
could
without
interferences,
I
guess
the.
L
B
Well,
it
does
say
the
compliance
test
established
under
paragraph
G
above
so
we're
envisioning,
that
there
be
a
decibel
reader
and
that
the
decibel
reader
will
measure
the
noise
so
it'll
be
a
handheld
it'll
measure.
The
noise
at
a
distance
of
at
least
25
feet
or
7
and
5
10
meters
from
the
near
side
of
the
nearest
Lane
being
monitored.
B
J
Counselor,
so
to
add
to
that,
from
from
my
understanding
of
this
and
and
just
from
what
I've
looked
at,
it's
actually
really
hard
to
find
information
about
this
from
other
states.
But
if
you
get
too
close
to
the
car,
so
you,
when
you're
doing
the
compliance
test,
you
need
to
be
establishing
a
specific
distance,
because
we
want
to
make
sure
that
if
you're
closer,
it's
going
to
be
louder
if
you're
lower,
if
you're
closer
to
where
the
muffler
is
it's
going
to
be
louder.
J
So
that's
why
it's
that
at
least
25
feet
in
at
least
four
feet
in
two
tenths
is
my
understanding.
Is
that
then
you're
getting
what
should
reasonably
be
the
reading
from
the
car
in
reasonable
traffic?
So
if
you
we
don't
want
them
too
close,
because
then
they
could
artificially
be
getting
a
higher
level
or
too
low
because
again
could
artificially
be
getting
a
higher
level
and
a
car
may
be
deemed
out
of
compliance
when
it
would
not
actually
be
out
of
compliance.
J
So
this
again
is,
is
you
know,
there's
a
lot
of
this
conversation
around
the
subjectivity
of
of
our
current
lot.
To
be
perfectly
honest,
because,
right
now
it
is,
we
do
give
citations
for
excessive
noise
and
without
defining
excessive,
and
also
our
officers
are
giving
these
citations
with
without
having
decibel
readers
and
knowing
that.
That
is
not
something
that
is
easily
achieved
in
the
field.
And
how
can
we
bring
in
some
objectivity
in
a
way
that
will
that.
J
Allow
people
to
both
say,
hey
I,
fixed
it
or
I,
feel
like
I
was
I
was
wrongfully
given
this
ticket
and
having
a
more
measurable
way
of
them
being
able
to
to
fight
that.
P
J
My
understanding
is
that
you
you're
standing
there.
The
car
is
driving
by
you
so
that
it
would
be
the
side.
I
am
not
an
expert
in
this,
and
again
we
do.
We
do.
You
know
pop
it
up
to
the
city
manager
to
put
it
on
them
as
the
responsibility
of
really
understanding
this
and
speaking
to
the
experts
and
establishing
what
this
test
looks
like.
L
The
DC
Champlin
I,
read
about
it
pretty
much
every
day
in
nextdoor.com,
about
catalytic
converters
being
stolen,
seems
to
continue
to
be
a
real,
huge
problem.
L
Clearly,
those
vehicles
are
going
to
make
a
lot
more
noise
than
in
a
standard
vehicle.
How
would
those
situations
be
handled.
T
I
think
that's
a
better
question
for
either
Kyle
or
the
sponsors
of
the
bill.
Counselor
and
I
say
that,
because
they
would
have
to
determine
that
in
in
court,
there's
a
chance
that
a
catalytic
converter,
stolen,
absolutely
I
would
believe
that
the
judge
would
be
amenable
to
having
a
case
number
provided
or
some
kind
of
documentation
provided
to
to
show
that
this.
T
You
know
this
actually
did
occur
and
they're
not
just
making
it
up,
but
that
would
be
up
to
the
Municipal
Court
honestly
to
to
decide
whether
that
was
or
not,
because
there
are
people
believe
it
or
not.
That
will
just
do
what
we
would
call
straight
piping
it
and
they
just
they
cut
off
the
catalytic
converter
and
it's
just
a
straight
pipe
just
for
the
mere
purposes
of
having
a
straight
pipe
allowed
vehicle.
L
E
J
We
did
have
this
conversation
and
you
know
one
thing
that
should
be
considered
as
a
encouraging
people
that
if
somebody
has
stolen
their
catalytic
converter,
that
they
need
to
file
a
police
report,
and
then
that
should
be
on
record
that
they
can
be
using
that
this.
This
is
something
that
has
occurred
and
it
is
expensive
to
get
it
fixed.
J
So
what
some
people
may
have
had
this
theft
happen
and
be
working
on
saving
the
money
to
to
get
this
repaired,
but
I
do
think
that
that's
part
of
this
communication
that
you
know
whenever
I
speak
with
Chief
Joy
about
pretty
much
anything.
It's
kind
of
you
know
we
need
the
data
if
they
don't
report
it.
J
We
don't
know
that
it's
actually
happened,
but
that
was
contemplated
that
if
there
was
a
situation
where
they
have
not
modified
and
it's
really
been
part
of
a
theft,
I
don't
know
if
we
would
need
to
add
that
in
but
I
mean
yeah.
That's
that
was
kind
of
my
understanding,
I.
Think
Kyle.
You
can
you
and
I
had
this
conversation,
so
you
can
right.
Was
it
with
you?
Was
it
I?
Don't
remember?
Who
I
had
this
conversation
with,
but
go
ahead?
How
this
might
be
handled
within
the
courts.
M
Chairman
worth
councilor
Cassie,
Kessler
River
the
way
it's
written,
I,
don't
think
there's
any
it.
M
Doesn't
take
it
into
consideration
the
way
the
audience
is
written
either
currently
or
as
with
the
proposed
now
you
know
what
I,
what
I
would
hope
that
the
judge
would
do.
Is
you
know,
take
that
into
consideration
and
issuing
a
decision
and
and
what
I
would
hope
that
you
know
the
officer
would
do
and
what
I
would
try
to
do
is
take
that
into
consideration
as
well
be
sitting
deciding
on.
M
You
know:
what's
what's
the
appropriate
outcome
in
the
in
a
particular
case,
but
you
know
as
far
as
it
being
black
letter
law
in
the
ordinance,
I
I,
don't
think
it
is.
It
doesn't
there's
nothing
that
says,
but
if
you
know
catalytic
converters
stolen,
then
that's
a
defense
or
anything
like
that.
L
All
right,
so
you
guys
continue
to
work
on
a
priority
based
model.
If
clearly
a
catalytic
converter
is
stolen
and
a
person
needs
a
police
report,
that's
going
to
be
a
very
low
level
priority
compared
to
other
things
happening.
Is
that
correct.
T
It
would
be
solely
dependent
upon
what's
happening
in
real
time:
counselor
Etc,
where
priority
calls
for
life
or
something
actually
in
progress,
not
being
property
theft.
Those
will
be
a
higher
priority.
Yes,
if
they're,
if
they're
you
know
there
was
standard,
calls
for
after
the
fact
type
cases,
then
it
would
come
up
into
a
queue
and
it
would
be
answered
accordingly.
L
T
L
T
There's
a
there's
a
chance:
it
could
be
a
a
few
hours
later.
It
would
be
highly
highly
unlikely
or
highly
normal
unnormal
I
guess
not
frequent
infrequent
for
it
to
be
done.
The
next
day
there
are
times
that
that
happens,
but,
generally
speaking,
that's
because
there's
some
major
cases
seriously
major
cases
happening
and
the
the
reporting
parties
usually
called
back
by
Commander
to
let
them
know
that
it's
gonna
have
to
wait
till
the
following
morning,
but
that
doesn't
happen
very
often.
L
B
J
An
answer
I
I,
do
based
on
what
I've
been
looking
into
from
laws
in
other
states,
specifically
California
and
California's
Fix-It
ticket
is
that
their
decibel
levels,
which
hours
are
I,
believe
even
a
little
bit
higher
than
what
California
established
should
not
capture
factory
installed
factory
installed
Mufflers,
with
the
exception
of
those
ones.
That
makes
it
exceptionally
louder
and
they
they
did
say
that
it
included
a
lot
of
the
the
motorcycles
and
that's
the
best.
J
I
can
tell
you,
based
on
the
research
that
I
was
saying
is
that
when
they
were
looking
at
the
decibel
levels
that
they
were
establishing
the
goal
was
really
to
be
looking
at
these
modifications
and
to
be
looking
at
these
additional
boosters
that
people
could
purchase,
but
really
not
looking
at
what
the
factory
standards
are
for.
The
vast
majority
of
vehicles
jake
brakes
were
not
considered
and
were
not
really
I
from
what
I
could
see
from
the
California.
They
were
really
looking
at
the
noise
coming
out
of
a
muffler.
L
So
on
the
part
of
this
ordinance
also
deals
with
exhaust
and
and
smoke,
so
it
talks
about
every
motor
vehicle
shall
be.
L
18-Wheelers,
our
own
garbage
trucks,
tractors
says
every
vehicle.
L
It's
not
even
a
questionnaire
as
far
as
the
fines
and
fees
once
they
go
to
court,
whether
they're
gonna
pay,
the
fine
or
dispute
it
or
whatever
their
court
fees
that
go
along
with
that.
M
L
If
I
got
a
ticket
for
the
noise
ordinance
or
the
muffler
ordinance
went
to
court
on,
my
court
date
tried
to
dispute
it.
Couldn't
do
it
whatever
so
I
decided
to
fix
it
and
I
came
back
to
court
to
prove
that
I
had
fixed
it.
Would
there
be
court
fees
for
both
of
those
actually.
M
I
remember
worth
counselor:
no,
the
the
court
fees
are
just
for
a
case
per
case.
Okay.
If,
if,
for
example,
if
you
end
up
going
to
court
for
a
pre-trial
six
times
and
ultimately
get
found
guilty,
then
it's
just
going
to
be
the
156,
the
the
one
time
56
dollar
charge
and
they
also
aren't
imposed.
If
like,
for
example,
if
the
case
is
dismissed
or
if
George
finds
a
defendant,
not
guilty
court
fees
wouldn't
be
imposed,
then
either.
L
So
I
think
I
said
this
at
the
Public
Works
I'm
opposed
to
this
ordinance.
Fines
and
fees,
I,
don't
believe
work,
I.
Think
that's.
Why
there's
been
legislation
proposed
here
at
this
governing
body.
H
L
Some
fines
and
fees,
assuming
you
show
up
to
court,
there's
no
jail
potential,
but
for
the
age
group
that
we're
talking
about
which
I
feel
probably
of
the
87.5
percent
of
the
15
to
31
year
olds,
I
would
say:
80
probably
live
in
districts,
three
and
four.
L
For
some
of
them
it
may
be
difficult
just
to
get
off
work
to
go
to
court
and
that
may
factor
in
into
what's
happening
there.
In
those
cases
a
warrant
would
be
issued
for
an
arrest
and
some
those
decisions
about
getting
off
work,
sometimes
or
more
impactful
than
the
finance
fee
would
be.
What
I
think
people
don't
realize
is
that
a
warrant
would
be
issued
for
their.
L
To
even
show
up,
I
have.
H
H
R
L
D
Thank
you,
madam
chair.
Thanks
for
the
explanations,
it's
a
lot
a
lot
of
work
put
into
this
to
try
to
find
a
balance
and
I'm
I,
guess
I'm
stuck
on
this,
like
discretion
of
Judges,
discretion
of
prosecutors
and
so
I
guess
I'm,
just
trying
to
figure
I'm
just
trying
to
understand
the
consistency
of
it
all
of
the
different
pieces
that
we
added
in
and
then
the
original
language
that
we
have.
That
doesn't
seem
very
consistent
anyway.
D
So
let
me
go
back
to
the
the
1968
date.
Why
was
that
the
elected?
A
J
J
D
Okay
and
so.
D
B
Then
you
would
fix
your
muffler
and
you
would
take
your
citation
and
you
would
go
through
whatever
the
process
is
to
to
do
the
compliance
test
to
demonstrate
that
your
muffler
has
been
fixed
and
you
are
now
in
compliance
and
therefore
you
shouldn't
have
to
pay
the
fee
and
it
it's
also
solving
the
problem.
Right
I
mean
we
want
people
to
fix
their
mufflers.
We
do
not
want
these
Mufflers
being
used
or
existing
in
the
community.
So
that's
one
way
it
could
be
used.
B
It
could
also
be
that
you're
driving
an
older
model
car
and
there's
actually
nothing
wrong
with
your
model.
Yeah
it's
a
little
loud
and
maybe
you
get
wrongly
ticketed
or
you
think
you
got
wrongly
ticketed.
You
can
go
to
court
and
say
I.
Think
I
was
wrongly
ticketed
and
there's
a
way
to
demonstrate
that.
B
You
were
wrongly
ticketed
because
we
have
now
defined
what
excessive
noise
is.
We
have.
We
have
put
the
the
decibel
levels
that
are
in
our
current
law
in
our
noise
ordinance
over
here
in
the
traffic
law,
so
they
can
be
utilized.
They
could
be
utilized
right
now,
but
the
fact
of
the
matter
is
they're
not
being
utilized
by
the
police
department,
even
though
they
could
issue
a
ticket
under
the
noise
ordinance
they
don't.
So
what
we're
trying
to
do
is
make
it
easier,
we'll
take
the
same
law.
B
We
have
in
the
noise
ordinance
and
we'll
just
shift
it
over
to
the
uniform
traffic
ordinance
and
if
you
think,
you've
wrongly
been
ticketed,
you'll
you'll
do
it
and
you
want
to,
and
you
don't
want
to
pay
the
250
or
whatever
it
is
you'll,
because
it's
the
second
offense
or
it's
a
first
offense
or
whatever
the
the
amount
of
the
fine,
is
you'll,
go
through
the
compliance
test
and
and
prove
that
you
were
wrongly
ticketed.
D
B
We've
defined
what
excessive
noise
is,
and
we
have
said
that
the
city
manager
needs
to
take
that
standard
and
then
develop
a
process
by
which
you
can
prove
that
either
you
fixed
your
muffler
or
you
were
wrongly
ticketed.
What
we're
trying
to
do
is
address
the
concerns
that
have
been
brought
up
through
all
these
hearings
right
is
that
it's
subjective,
there's
not
a
way
to
you
know:
we've
been
concerned
about
five
fines
and
fees,
and
we
want
to.
We
want
to
allow
people
and
out
if
they
are
like
whoops.
D
We
have
the
standards,
you
said
not
standards,
but
the
measurement
of
noise,
and
then
we
have
these
distance
kind
of
arbitrary
I
guess
distances
I'm
so
curious
how
they
came
up
with
these
numbers,
but
I'm
just
trying
to
like
map
it
out
of
like
how
this
even
gets
to
the
point
where
someone
can
actually
decide
that
they
want
to
make
a
change,
and
so
what
I'm,
also
struggling
with
is
the
60-day
citation
we're
just
we
were
talking
about
these
citations
that
are
in
are
pending
or
what
does
the
other
word
deferred
and
I?
D
M
M
Worth
I'll
save
you
around
so
I.
M
On
on
this,
compliance
test
is
to
actually
move
some
of
the
discretion
from
the
judge
and
and
from
the
prosecutor.
In
other
words,
this
person
could
come
in
and
say,
look
I've
passed
this
compliance
test.
You
now
can't
prosecute
me
for
one
and
good.
You
can't
find
me
guilty.
M
I
might
I,
don't
think
that
that's
present
now,
even
if
they
they
fixed
it.
No
it's
something
that
I
wouldn't
do
right,
like
I'm
not
going
to
prosecute
someone
if
they
fixed
it,
I
don't
know
if
that
really
serves
it,
what
we're
trying
to
do
as
a
city
but
theoretically
I
I
could
or
the
officer
could
and
theoretically
the
judge
could
find
someone
guilty,
even
if
they
have
fixed
it
and
I.
M
And
I,
you
know
hate
to
speak,
for
you
know
other
people,
but
but
going
on
a
little
further.
The
way
that
I
think
this
would
work
is
the
officer
was
was
mentioned
earlier,
he's
using
his
training
and
experience.
Is
he
a
traffic
cop?
Is
he
in
traffic
all
day?
M
Is
this
something
that's
out
of
the
ordinary
he
if
he
decides
to
issue
a
ticket
it
gets
sent
to
court,
then,
with
this
change,
is
the
the
defendant
then
has
the
ability
to
either
fix
it
within
60
days
or
use
this
as
an
affirmative
defense
that
he's
not
above
those
decibel
levels
now?
M
If
if
if
he
doesn't
do
that,
if
he
doesn't
do
that,
then
I
think
we're
still
working
with
the
same
standards
that
we
had
and
that's
you
basically
I'm
having
to
prove
whether
or
not
this
is
excessive
or
unusual
noise
right.
D
D
J
D
A
D
I,
don't
think
it's
as
quick
as
we
think
it
is
that's
what
I'm
saying
so,
there's
that
and
then
I
I'm
still
confused
how
Harley's
crotch
rocket
sports
bikes
apply
to
this,
because
to
me
that's
what
I
I
hear,
at
least
in
my
part
of
the
city,
the
most
doing
drag
racing
down
Studios.
M
I'm
trying
to
pull
it
up
now,
I
I,
believe
motor
vehicle
is
a
relatively
broad
definition
that
had,
and
it's
a
defined
term
in
the
and
the
uniform
traffic
ordinances
and
I
believe
it's
basically
anything
that
runs
on
an
engine
and
doesn't
run
on
Rails.
B
I
also
I
for
a
while
D.C
chaplains
had
his
hand
up
so
I,
don't
know
if
what
he
wanted
to
say
was.
T
Nope
I'm
enjoying
the
discussion
back
and
forth
to
counselor
verreal's
question
regarding
the
1968
I
was
just
going
through
my
notes,
because
I
knew
I
had
written
something
down
and
I
I
believe
it's
not
just
a
state
issue.
That
was
what
the
federal
government
started
to
regulate.
Emissions
Control
Pro
Mufflers
was
1968.
That
was
the
big
year
after
that
I
discussed
this
with
our
our
chief
a
few
weeks
ago.
So
I
know
I
wrote
it
down,
but
I
just
wanted
to
mention
that
I
don't
specifically
know.
T
If
that's
why
New
Mexico
did
it,
but
it
could
be
that
what
led
to
that
1960
specific
you
know
that
odd
year
of
1968
is
emissions
control.
So.
D
T
Chair
and
a
counselor
be
around
you're
correct
and
we
know
that
but
I'm
just
throwing
it
out
there.
It
could
be
because
I
know
our
Muffler
ordinance
also
includes
smoke
and
excessive
emissions,
and
since
that's
in
there
and
the
1968
you're,
the
only
thing
that
I
could
find
that
was
significant
about
it
was
the
federal
government
regulating
emissions
control
from
automotives?
That's
the
only
correlation,
I
could
find
and
I
could
be
wrong,
but
I'm
just
putting
it
out
there
as
information.
M
Yeah,
so
motor
vehicle
is
defined
it.
It
means
every
vehicle
which
is
self-propelled
and
every
vehicle
which
is
propelled
by
electric
power
obtained
from
batteries
or
from
overhead
trolley
wires,
but
not
operated
upon
rails,
and
then
it
goes
on.
But
for
the
purposes
of
the
mandatory
financial
responsibility,
Act
motor
vehicle
does
not
include
special
mobile
equip
equipment,
so
I
think
motorcycles
would
fall
into
this
ordinance.
It.
H
D
The
Harleys
and
crotch
rocket
sports
bikes,
which
are
manufactured
to
be
the
way
they
are,
which
you
know,
I,
don't
love
it
either
I'm
just
curious.
Those
folks
are
going
to
get
ticket
ticketed.
J
So
again,
based
on
the
research
that
I
did
looking
at
California
and
looking
at
the
decibel
levels
that
they
set,
of
which
ours
are
higher,
it
should
not
be
capturing
Factory
the
base
Factory.
For
for
what
those
look
like
this
is.
This
is
from
the
research
that
I've
done.
That
is
my
understanding
of
what
those
levels
have
been
set
at
and
what
those
laws
are
looking
to
not
capture
things
like
motorcycles
that
are
going
to
be
loud,
but
not
as
loud
as
these
modified
mufflers
and
that's
yeah.
L
J
T
I
think
it's
gonna,
it's
kind
of
a
circular
question
and
I
know
it
keeps
going
around,
but
the
louder
excessive
noise
from
the
vehicle.
You
know
that's
for
the
officer
to
go
and
articulate
based
in
their
training
experience
and
I'm,
not
throwing
those
words
out
arbitrarily
or
as
as
random
words.
Those
are
very,
very,
very,
very,
very
important
for
an
officer
to
be
able
to
articulate
if
you're
training,
whatever
that
may
be,
that
they
have
for
that
particular
incident.
T
It
might
not
be
Mufflers,
it
could
be
DUI,
it
could
be
speeding,
it
could
be
reckless
driving,
it
could
be
domestic
violence,
what
their
training
was
and
articulating
the
facts
and
evidence
that
they
were
that
they
perceived
and
they
found
when
they
learned
during
that
particular
incident
to
go
into
court
and
build
and
articulate
those
and
if
those
can't
be
articulated
the
state's
burden
and
the
city's
burden
to
prove
Beyond
a
reasonable
doubt
that
that
particular
is
going
to
happen.
T
So
you
know
they'll
fail
to
prove
that
and
that's
why
trading
experience
is
so
important.
So
in
this
case,
when
it's
a
loud
noise
or
an
excessive
loud
noise
Muffler
that
stands
out
from
other
vehicles
which
gives
the
officer
Reasonable
Suspicion
to
pull
the
vehicle
over
and
if
they
approach
they
decide
to
issue
a
citation.
You
know,
then
we
go
from
there.
The
the
actual
decibel
reading
doesn't
come
into
the
compliance,
obviously
under
the
ordinance
and
the
amendment.
T
Correct
I
think
even
with
Harley-Davidsons.
You
know
that
they're
loud,
because
you
know
that
they're
loud
just
by
being
a
human
being
of,
however
many
years
that
and
being
familiar
with
the
vehicles
and
traffic
that
Harley-Davidsons
are
allowed.
I
know.
One
of
the
agencies
are
allowed.
This
the
same
way
that
you
do
being
exposed
to
them
and
I
think
there's
a
level
of
difference.
That
even
officer
has
even
another
level
of
experience
in
that
because
they
just
experienced
traffic
so
much
when
they're
in
it.
T
So
much
that
I
think
there's
still
a
uniqueness
to
how
loud
that
may
be
and
make
catch
the
officers
attention
so
to
speak,
but
they'll
have
to
articulate
ultimately
and
that
it
falls
upon
their
it's
their
burden.
To
do
that,
foreign.
J
With
with
Harley
Davidsons
I
think
there's
also
this
really
interesting
aspect
that
you
often
get
a
lot
of
them
writing
together
and
so
now,
I'm
I've
I
feel
like
that
kind
of
comes
into
to
my
thought,
as
I'm
thinking
about
the
noise
of
of
Harleys.
Is
that
when
I
think
of
just
like
a
singular
one,
it's
not
as
impactful
is
when
you
have
a
group
of
them
writing
together
and
I
I
mean
I,
wouldn't
but
but
I,
but
there
is
that
differentiation
there.
J
D
I,
don't
know
if
I
agree
with
that
I
think
a
Harley
is
a
Harley
and
it's
loud
so
and
and
then
I
guess
this
standard
of
like
discretion
for
the
officers
like.
Oh
it's
a
Harley,
it's
a
class
it
you
know,
that's
expensive
vehicle,
we're
not
going
to
stop
them,
and
then
you
see
some
younger
person
that
may
be
profiled
and
they
don't
have
this
snazzy
car,
but
they
do
have
modification.
So
I,
just
I
think
it's
maybe
inconsistently
applied
and
then
the
question
we
just
haven't
answered.
D
None
of
the
sponsors
have
really
addressed
this
and
we're
talking
about,
like
all
stakeholders
involved,
like
people
that
do
think.
This
is
a
problem.
That's
one
stakeholder,
but
there's
also
stakeholders
that
are
the
auto
dealers
and
the
auto
businesses
who
sell
one.
The
factory
installed
exhaust
options
and
then
also
who
do
the
modified
Mufflers
in
their
place
of
business.
So
I'm
curious.
If
anyone
has
talked
to
the
stakeholders,
because
this
will
affect
their
business,
and
so
this
basically
tells
them,
you
can
no
longer
do
this
in
Santa,
Fe,
correct.
J
They
already
are
not
allowed
to
do
this
in
Santa
Fe.
Remember
this!
What's
changing
in
this
ordinance,
oh
you're,
right,
I'm,
sorry,
the
the
fines
of
so
nevermind
backtracking,
yes,
that
that
does
change
with
the
the
dealers.
Technically,
people
are
not
allowed
to
already
have
these
in
Santa
Fe,
but.
D
D
Right
so
we
haven't,
we
haven't
scrutinized
or
focused
on
the
The
Source.
If
you
will,
although
you
can't
it's
not
just
focus,
you
know
people
that
do
the
businesses.
People
can
modify
their
own
Mufflers
too,
a
very
cheap
rate,
so
I'm
just
curious,
like
we
haven't,
talked
about
that
like
have
we
done
Outreach
to
those
stakeholders.
C
Reached
out
to
the
Chamber
of
Commerce
they
reached
out
to
numerous
people.
They
didn't
come
back
with
anything
particularly
negative.
Can
I
address
on
the
point
on
the
Harleys.
It
says
that
a
Harley
us
stock
exhaust
from
a
Harley
is
about
80
decibels,
so
it
would
fall
pretty
much
within.
C
H
J
Don't
know
so
if
you
have
multiple
vehicles
that
one
is
being
towed,
if
the
total
weight
of
the
two
vehicles
is
over
10
000
pounds,
those
that's
what
we're
looking
at
for
that
vehicle
train
so
say
you
have
a
car
and
you're
towing,
an
RV
that
would
be
and
the
the
range
is
over
ten
thousand
pounds
that-
and
you
know
again,
if
we
think
about
the
cars
that
we're
really
dealing
with
that's,
not
who's,
getting
ticketed.
J
D
B
T
More
worth,
there's
at
times,
speed
can
be
synonymous
with
loud
mufflers,
absolutely
as
far
as
drag
racing,
but
I
can
tell
you
that,
for
the
majority
of
the
complaints
that
come
in
some
do
come
in
from
racing,
but
there
are
some
that
are
just
it's
just
loud
vehicles
with
loud
mufflers
there.
The
fact
of
the
matter
isn't,
to
put
it
very
bluntly,
is
people
modify
their
mufflers
it's
loud
and
the
community
doesn't
doesn't
like
it
and
that's
that's
why
we're
here
reviewing
this
ordinance?
It's.
T
With
speed
so
at
times
it
can
be
associated
with
speed.
It's
a
it's
really
dependent
upon
the
situation,
and
you
know
even
depending
on
the
and
I
was
mentioned
earlier,
that
were
it
would
be
profiling,
a
certain
age
group
or
a
certain
vehicle
or-
and
you
know,
just
keep
it
and
keep
in
mind
that
90
of
the
time
an
officer
is
behind
a
vehicle.
They
don't
know
who's
driving
the
vehicle
they're,
just
they're
hearing
the
muffler.
They
notice
that
it's
loud
and
they're
stopping
the
vehicle.
T
For
that
reason,
not
because
of
who's
driving
the
vehicle.
It
just
so
happens
that
when
statistics
come
out
that
you
know,
the
age
group
tends
to
be
a
particular
age
group
that,
like
these
type
of
Mufflers
or
install
mufflers-
and
it
just
so
happens
to
be
that
way.
D
B
This
bill
has
just
been
moved
along
from
committees
without
being
unanimously
voted
down,
but
but
voted
to
go
forward
without
recommendation.
In
order
to
go
to
the
governing
body,
a
committee
has
to
take
affirmative
action.
It
has
to
say,
do
pass
as
amended
or
do
pass
as
originally
done
in
order
to
go
to
governing
body.
If
this
bill
doesn't
pass
tonight,
it
doesn't
go
to
governing
body.
B
B
Never
does
it
attaches
at
the
committee
where
the
amendment
is
adopted,
so
it'll
go
to
go
so
if
it
passes.
If
this
amendment
is
put
on
the
bill
tonight,
it
attaches
right
under
our
new
rules,
because
we
wanted
the
work
to
be
done
here
and
there's
been
a
lot
of
work
done
through
the
committee
process.
If
this
passes
tonight,
these
attach
doesn't
mean
you
couldn't
make.
L
On
that
point,
doesn't
an
ordinance
have
to
be
noticed
for
30
days
before
it
can
be.
C
The
way
that
I
wrote
in
our
procedurals
that
it's
two
weeks.
B
So
they'll
they'll
notice
it
I
thought
30
days.
Counselor
Lindell
wanted
to
know
she
looked
it
up.
They'll
they'll
do
whatever
the
proper
notice
is.
If
we
pass
it
tonight,.
M
O
L
A
couple
other
short
follow-ups,
I
promise.
This
right
now
is
set
to
go
to
Council
on
December
14th.
If
it
passes
how
soon
after
does
it
go
into
effect,.
M
Carol
merworth
castle,
River
I
I
again
I'm
I'm,
not
sure
how
quickly
it
goes
into
into
effect.
I
want
to
say
60
days,
but
that's
just
a
good
guess.
I.
M
And
just
just
a
quick
follow-up
on
that
too
I
believe
Jesse
Gehan
said
that
it
would.
At
this
point
it
would
probably
be
on
the
first
governing
body
meeting
in
January.
L
L
H
B
Okay,
so
I
think
the
first
thing
we
have
to
do
is
make
a
motion
on
the
bill.
H
C
So
I'll
move
to
approve
the
bill.
B
Right,
I'll,
second,
the
bill:
do
you
want
to
move
the
amendment
or
shall
I
I'll.
B
B
Right
now
we're
just
voting
on
the
amendment.
All
right,
we're
we're
gonna,
do
a
roll
call
on
this.
We
have
a
motion
in
a
second
on
the
amendment
to
this
bill.
Can
we
do
a
roll
call.
A
Madam,
chair
councilor
cassette.
L
D
Explain
your
vote.
Thank
you,
madam
chair
I
think
that
it
needs
more
work,
and
maybe
we
could
do
that
before
the
I.
Don't
know
the
time
frame.
I
thought
it
was
14
days
business
days.
So
I
don't
know
what
the
next,
when
which
governing
body
meeting
it
is
I,
think
we
need
to
look
at
the
time
frame
for
the
amendment.
I
don't
think
60
days
is
enough.
I
need
more
clarity
on
how
this
compliance
test
works.
I
don't
want
us
to
have
these
bureaucratic
steps
for
people
to
make
a
change.
D
Yes,
we
want
them
to
commit
to
a
change,
but
I.
Don't
I,
don't
see
this
clearly
yet
so
I'd
like
to
either
work
with
the
amendment
sponsors
and
try
to
figure
this
out,
because
when
I
keep
reading
this,
it
just
sounds
like
we.
Even
the
current
language.
We
have
is
very
unclear
and
kind
of
subjective,
so
I,
don't
know
how
to
how
to
ameliorate
that
it
just
weighs
on
me
and
I
feel
like
we
don't
want
to
have
more
ordinances
that
are
not
enforceable.
D
So
that's
why
I
voted
no,
and
the
abstention
for
the
amendment
was
really
just
to
Clarity
get
clarity
on
some
of
those
things
that
I'm
so
concerned
about.
So
thank
you.
B
Thank
you,
counselor,
okay,
so
with
that
this
is
the
last
meeting
of
the
finance
committee
in
2022,
correct.
B
L
Sorry
ma'am,
chair
I,
think
I've
asked
for
several
months
about
the.
L
B
Thank
you,
counselor
any
other
matters
from
the
committee
and
just
for
the
committee's
knowledge.
We
do
have
only
two
governing
body
meetings
left
this
year.
The
the
first
one
is
on
Wednesday
night
and
then
there's
only
one
governing
body
meeting
in
December,
so
the
muffler
bill
is
if
it
can
be
noticed
with
only
whatever
two
weeks,
two
and
a
half
weeks,
it
should
be
on
the
agenda
for
December,
which
is
December
14th,
but
I
think
we'll
be
getting
more
clarity
on
that,
perhaps
even
tomorrow.