►
Description
DXdao is a DAO of DeFi developers, run in a fully-decentralized, on-chain way. DXdao is responsible for products such as Swapr, a decentralized exchange, and Omen, an on-chain prediction market.
John Kelleher is one of the DAO's earliest members and a core contributor.
You can find him them on Twitter as @DXDao_. John is as @jpkcambridge
If you want to find their website, you can do so at https://dxdao.eth.link
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A
A
B
Sure
dx
now
is
a
dao
or
you
could
think
of
it
as
a
decentralized
collective,
an
organization
that's
native
to
the
internet
and
we
focus
primarily
on
building
and
operating
t5
protocols.
So
that's
decentralized
finance.
The
the
main
products
that
are
live
currently
are
a
dex,
so
a
decentralized
exchange
and
a
prediction
market
platform.
So
this
is
or
information
markets
as
they're
known,
which
allows
you
to
ask
any
question
and
create
the
outcome
tokens
and
create
a
market
around
those
different
possibilities
that
can
then
trade
on
the
blockchain.
B
B
The
great
thing
about
arbitrarum
is
that
it
inherits
the
security
properties
of
the
layer,
1,
thus
layer
and
it's
a
little
bit
cheaper,
still
not
super
cheap
but
but
much
more
affordable
than
the
ethereum
main
net,
and
then
xda
is
a
side
chain.
That's
a
lot
cheaper,
so
not
as
decentralized
but
useful
for
the
day-to-day
kind
of
operations
that
we
do
at
dxdow.
So
in
terms
of
paying
people
and
funding
different
efforts
on
like
an
operational
basis,
xda
is
kind
of
where
that
is
happening.
But
the
products
are
also
deployed.
B
You
know
on
x-time
maintenance
and
arbitral,
and
that's
kind
of
like
the
gist
of
what
takes
out
is
what
we
do.
It
was
launched
in
mid-2019
by
two
other
crypto
projects,
gnosis
and
dow
stack
in
collaboration,
but
they,
after
launching
it
stepped
back
and
kind
of
played,
no
part
in
getting
things
going
or
operating
them.
B
After
that
initial
launch,
where
400
addresses,
were
essentially
like
airdropped
voting
power
based
on
locking
up
tokens
and
doing
a
couple
of
other
things
that
initial
community
of
people
with
governance
power
in
the
dow
kind
of
took
it
forward
from
there
at
first.
It
was
actually
kind
of
quiet
in
mid-2019
gnosis
had
given
the
dutch
exchange
to
the
extau,
but
there
wasn't
much
capital
in
in
the
dow
and
the
dutch
exchange
wasn't
getting
much
use.
It
was
a
decentralized
exchange.
B
B
We
were
able
to
launch
a
couple
of
front
ends
built
on
other
protocols
deployed
on
on
the
blockchain.
One
was
mesa,
which
was
a
front
end
to
the
gnosis
protocol,
decentralized
exchange
and
then
the
other
one
was
oman,
which
is
a
prediction
market
platform
that
leveraged
the
conditional
token
framework
that
had
been
deployed
unchained
by
gnosis
and
yeah.
The
token
was
txt
and
the
sale
for
that
started
in
may
of
2020
was
active
through
d5
summer
because
it
was
an
open,
bonding
curve
sale.
So,
basically,
as
more
dxd
was
sold,
the
price
went
up.
A
B
The
course
of
that
d5,
somewhere
about
25
000,
eats,
were
raised.
The
team
grew,
more
contributors
were
now
up
to
about
25,
full-time
contributors
and
there's
an
increased
focus
on
governance
as
well.
So
the
dao
stack
platform
that
deep
sound
was
initially
launched
on
is
being
carried
forward
now
by
the
dx
style
team,
since
the
exte
since
downstack
has
stopped
working
on
it,
but
it's
still
very
important
infrastructure
for
dxtel.
B
A
team
has
been
built,
it's
up
to
around
six
developers
and
a
designer
now,
as
well
as
kind
of
support
from
other
full-time
contributors,
focusing
on
decentralized
governance,
so
kind
of,
in
summary,
like
the
exam,
is
a
d5
product
and
protocol
dao.
That
also
like
cares
deeply
about
truly
decentralized
governance.
B
A
Soren
is
the
marketing
officer
for
for
doctor,
and
dog.
Dao
is
very
much
bc
type
now
so
when
we
were
when
I
was
talking
to
him
and
he
in
public
within
the
episode
he
said,
okay,
but
if
you're
looking
for
a
doll,
that's
like
completely
unchained,
if
you're
looking
for
for
guys
that
are
doing
the
the
holdout
thing
and
doing
it
like
you
know
to
the
leather,
then
you
should
speak
to
to
john
from
dx
dao,
and
I
was
very
surprised
when
I
came
on
to
your
website.
A
B
Starting
like
a
startup,
just
like
any
other
startup
you'd,
see
in
silicon
valley
or
wherever
right,
where
there's
a
small
team,
probably
a
company
behind
it,
some
venture
capitalists
that
provide
funding
and
get
equity,
maybe
they're
more
into
tokens
these
days
and
then,
if
they're,
trying
to
be
a
decentralized
project
they
may
be
yeah
like
are
going
to
try
to
progressively
decentralize
or
exit
to
the
community.
Dx
now
is
unique.
I
think
in
that,
because
of
how
it
was
it
was
started.
B
It
basically
was
a
dow
first
before
raising
any
funding,
and
so
now
there
are
venture
capitalists
out
there
that
hold
the
token
and
have
invested
in
dxtel,
but
txdown
doesn't
have
vcs
in
the
traditional
sense
like
there
was
no
formal
term
sheets
done.
The
vcs
had
to
buy
the
token
on
the
open
market
on
on
ethereum,
just
like
anybody
else
could
have
right.
B
So
in
that
sense,
I
think
that
the
exact
token
launch
and
raise
was
a
very
fair
and
and
open
one
for
me
personally,
so
I've
been
involved
since
pretty
early
on
and
at
the
time
in
mid
2019.
I
was
kind
of
asking
myself.
What
did
I
want
to
work
on?
We
were
in
the
bear
market.
I
had
been
doing
some
consulting.
I
knew
I
wanted
to
get
more
dedicated
to
a
specific
project
and
I
was
interested
in
d5.
B
I
felt
like
okay
there's
a
lot
of
potential
here
in
decentralized
finance,
it
seemed
like
a
very
natural
evolution,
for
you
know
something
that
started
from
bitcoin.
That
was
meant
to
disintermediate.
The
banks
and
kind
of
be
in
a
digital
currency,
like
decentralized
finance
to
me,
seemed
like
a
very
natural
evolution.
But
what
really
excited
me
about
crypto?
B
B
And
so
I
I've
been
asking
myself
well,
could
I
start
a
d5
of
my
own
or
like
with
some
other
people,
but
I
didn't
feel
equipped
to
do
that.
So
what
I
felt
was
the
best
thing
for
me
personally
was
to
find
a
community
that
might
have
similar
ideas,
and
so
that's
why
I
decided
to
focus
on
dxdow
really
just
kind
of
making
a
bet
that
hey
this
is
a
community
that
is
already
talking
about
these
things
that
I'm
excited
about.
B
A
I
guess
privacy
is
also
on
top
of
the
list,
because
it's
where
like
where
you
can
see
like
the
cutting
edge
of
cryptography
and
technology
and
all
this
game
theory
theories,
and
but
what
really
attracts
me
about
dallas
is
precisely
that
that
you
get
to
have
what
you
guys
advertise
right
in
the
front
of
your
website
like
horizontal
or
completely
circular
governance
systems,
you
get
to
have
like
no
information.
Symmetries,
everyone
gets
to
know
everything.
Everything
is
done
in
the
public.
A
Also.
What
I
thought
it
was
very
cool
from
dxdo
is
that
you
guys
have
all
the
tiers
of
what
employees
can
aspire
to
on
the
different
levels
they
can
get
to
and
what
is
required
for
each
one
of
them.
So
at
that
point
you
also
know
that
the
people
that
are
going
into
the
dao
are
being
fully
informed
of,
what's
going
on,
as
opposed
to
going
to
a
company
where
your
boss
is
always,
of
course,
trying
to
to
get
to
pay
you
as
little
as
possible.
A
B
Right,
yeah,
absolutely
so
that
yeah
there's
a
compensation
guidelines.
That
republic
were
passed
by
governance
as
like
kind
of
a
guide
to
like
exactly
what
he
said
guideline
to
people
who
are
joining
and
working
for
the
dow.
So
it's
not
like
a
strict
rule
that
it
has
to
be
following
these
levels,
but.
B
Right
because
we're
operating
in
a
completely
global
market-
and,
like
you
said
one
of
the
values
is
complete
transparency.
So
you
know
exactly
what
I
make.
You
know
what
everybody
makes
and
it's
all
a
chain
and
they
have
to
do
their
proposals.
So
I
mean
that's
cool
right
because
yeah
there's
no
like
big
secret,
so
you
don't
have
to
kind
of
be
wondering
like.
Are
you
getting
the
fair
deal
like
you
might
a
normal
employer?
B
I
think
it
does
make
it
a
little
trickier
for
the
dow
itself
to
compete
on
the
market,
maybe
trying
to
hire
people
right,
because
I
think
a
lot
of
times
firms
are
paying
whatever
the
market
price
is
for
for
something
and
that's
a
little
tricky
here
when
everything's
completely
in
the
open
and
there's
a
an
existing
set
of
guidelines.
But
I
think
it's
a
great
thing
that
we
have
that
transparency
and-
and
we
can
kind
of
do
all
this
stuff
in
the
open.
B
A
B
You
could
ask
any
question
set
any
condition
and
in
the
context
of
contributing
to
a
dow,
you
could
imagine
a
condition
such
as
will
this
product
be
shipped
on
the
main
net
by
the
end
of
the
year
right
and
then
you
could
lock
up
some
incentives
in
the
native
token
or
just
you
know
stable
coins
or
eth
and
give
that
carrot
token
to
the
developer
or
the
development
team.
And
so
basically
those
carrot.
Tokens
are
only
worth
something
if
they
meet
the
goal.
B
A
A
A
A
A
B
Yeah
and
be
more
about
yes,
I
could
see
it
being
useful
for
jobs
or
things
that
required
whoever's
doing
it
to
have
some
kind
of
skin
in
the
game
or
in
some
kind
of
commitment
that
you
you
can
like
slash
or
or
like
punish
them
if
they
are
not
playing
by
the
rules
right.
That
might
be
useful
if
you're
trusting
some
actors
with
a
lot
of
capital
or
something
that's
very
valuable.
Maybe
you
want
to
know
that.
A
B
A
If
someone
that's
listening
to
this
doesn't
know
what
claire
ross
is,
I'd
really
encourage
you
guys
to
go
check
it
out,
because
it's
amazing,
the
founder
of
that
project,
also
came
into
this
podcast.
So
you
can
listen
to
this
one
after
this
one
that
one
after
this
one
but
anyways,
but
there's
another
thing,
because
you
mentioned
the
token
in
the
open
market.
But
what
I
found
really
cool,
what
you
guys
do
is
the
other.
B
A
B
Very
bullish
on
non-transferable
or
we
like
to
call
it
like
reputation-based
voting
as
as
a
form
of
governance
and
playing
a
role
in
governance,
and
I
think
the
token
voting
that
dominates
the
market
now
is
actually
pretty
bad
and
even
dangerous
right,
very
vulnerable.
I
think
to
economic
attacks
a
vulnerable
to
devolving
into
plutocracy,
where
just
a
few
influential
actors
like
accrue
all
the
power.
I
think
that's
concerned.
B
It
was
great
to
see
vitalik
writing
that
blog
post
and
drawing
attention
to
some
of
these
issues,
which
have
actually
been
something
that
is,
is
a
big
topic
in
in
the
dx
style
community
since
early
on-
and
it
goes
back
to
the
initial
platform
that
the
excel
was
launched
on,
which
was
built
by
dow
stack.
So
dowsdeck
revolved
all
around
this
reputation,
voting,
which
is
a
non-transferable
voting
power.
I
glossed
over
it
earlier,
but
when
the
excel
was
initially
launched
in
2019,
it
only
had
reputation-style
governance.
B
So
there
was
just
about
400
addresses
that
have
this
non-transferable
governance
power
over
dxtau.
That
was
what
had
been
set
up
initially
through
the
initial
lock
drop,
which
is
sort
of
like
an
early
form
of
doing
air
drops
or
liquidity
mining
kind
of
right
like
except
it
wasn't
really
after
the
liquidity.
It
was
just
you
locked
up
some
ether,
other
tokens
and
then
got
the
initial
reputation
right,
so
they
they
basically
airdropped.
B
This
reputation,
non-transferable
governance
to
this
initial
group
of
people
that
was
in
the
middle
of
2019,
but
there
was
no
capital
in
the
dow,
so
dxdow
then
launched
this
token
dxd,
which
is
an
erc20
token
in
early
2020
and
raise
capital
that
way
so
now,
dxdow
still
operates,
but
is
entirely
governed
by
that
reputation.
That,
from
the
beginning,
new
reputation
has
been
minted.
B
There's
actually
been
a
fair
amount
of
growth
in
that
people
are
earning
it
all
the
time
through
contributing
to
tx
now,
and
I
think
it's
grown
by
over
50
percent
at
this
point
from
the
initial
state
drop
and
that's
kind
of
diluting
some
of
the
inactive
people
and
getting
reputation
in
the
hands
of
more
active
contributors
but
but
yeah.
So
that's
still
how
it's
governed,
and
so
you
have
this
financial
token
dxt,
but
txt
doesn't
have
any
voting
power
in
in
dx
tao
right.
B
So
so
I
think
it's
really
cool
that
we
have
this
reputation
based
governance,
but
we
have
a
problem
in
that
it's
entirely
weighted
towards
people
who
are
like
contributing
like
in
a
way
it's
like
a
worker
collective
and
it's
completely
run
by
the
workers
and
people
providing
value.
That's
really
cool,
but
I
think
it's
imbalanced
right,
like
it's
not
healthy.
That
dxd
has
no
say
that
all
the
people
that
provided
capital
beginning
that
now
own
a
stake
in
dx
dao,
don't
really
have
a
say.
I
don't
think
that's
healthy.
B
B
The
reputation
voting
with
the
liquid
token
governance
of
the
erc20
governance
so
we're
basically
going
to
be
weighting
governance
power
based
on
a
combination
of
how
much
reputation
an
address
holds
and
how
much
of
the
erc
20
token
that
address
holds.
So
it
will
be
possible
to
acquire
more
governance
with
capital
by
just
buying
txd,
but
it
won't
be
easy
to
sybil
attack
it
because,
in
order
to
have
governance
power,
a
specific
address
has
to
have
already
has
has
to
have
also
earned
reputation
through.
B
You
know
actual
contributions
that
take
time
to
the
tao
right.
So
what
we're
hoping
is
this
creates
this
healthy
balance
between
the
two
you
can
think
of
it
as
balancing
labor
on
one
side
like
the
people
working
to
to
build
things
and
capital
on
the
other
side,
like
the
folks
that
are
furnishing
the
capital
to
fuel
the
growth
and
pay
for
those
workers
and
other
things
right.
So
yeah.
A
B
B
That
when
this
products
make
fees,
those
fees
are
going
to
get
returned
through
distribution
of
some
kind
or
mint
like
there's
different
ways
to
be
done,
it
could
be
buyback,
can
burn
or
buy
back
and
hold
or
distribution
of
of
fees
to
the
dxd
holder.
So,
like
the
whole,
like
not
the
whole
goal
but
like
one
of
the
main
goals
of
dxdow,
is
to
provide
value
to
the
txt
holder,
of
course,
but
but
yeah,
but
it
is
sort
of
a
structural
issue
or
problem
with
the
governance
that
it
doesn't
include
dxd.
B
That
dxd
has
no
say
so.
It
is
sort
of
a
broken
system
in
that
sense,
but
something
that
we're
working
actively
to
address
right.
There
was
this
governance.
2.0
was
actually
passed
via
a
signal
proposal
by
the
reputation
holder,
saying
hey.
This
is
the
goal,
the
direction
we
want
to
go
into,
and
now
we've
been
building
up
the
governance,
developer
team
and
making
progress
towards
that.
That
goal,
but
it'll
take
some
time
because
it's
a
very
serious
migration
to
this
new
system.
But
it's
something
we're
actively
working
towards.
A
Transferable
tokens,
but,
like
you
said,
data,
obviously
limits
the
value
you
can
get
from
people
that
are
interested
in
entering
the
ecosystem
and
that
can
fund
it
through
doing
so.
So
I
reckon
that's
also
a
smart
move
to
try
and
incorporate
a
token
that
can
be
obtained
in
the
in
the
secondary
markets.
Are
there
any
plans
of
limiting
certain
decisions
to
people
that
hold
the
year
c20
token
and
others
to
people
that
hold
the
the
reputation
token
or
those
that
go
against
everything
you
guys
stand
for.
B
Think
we
wanted
it
to
be
that
everybody
is
working
together.
So
that's
what
the
goal
is
is
to
create
this
one
notion
of
governance
power,
that's
calculated
by
the
voting
power
equation
that
will
be
unchained
right
and
that
voting
power
is
going
to
be
determined
by
a
combination
of
what
reputation
and
dxc
the
address
holds,
and
so
it
will
kind
of
just
hopefully
create
just
one
inclusive
ecosystem
of
both
the
txt
holders.
A
Yeah
I
mean
what
you
were
just
telling
me
about
these
all
these
different
token
structures
that
can
happen
within
within
dao,
and
I
was
curious
about
well
the
decision
to
have
everything
everything
on
chain,
because
I
know
that
that's
not
right
now,
the
most
popular
way
to
do
things
right
more
more
often
than
not.
You
see
people
using
snapshots
or
using
other
alternatives
to
keep
the
voting
off
shane.
So
is
this
just
because
the
layer
two
makes
it
so
convenient.
B
Yeah,
I
think
one
of
the
most
significant
obstacles
to
doing
governance
on
chain,
at
least
on
ethereum,
is
the
cost
of.
Of
course,
you
know
just
even
voting
on
doing
anything
on
ethereum
simply
sending
ether
on
ethereum
costs.
You
know
five
ten
dollars
these
days,
so
there's
that
issue
right
that
everybody's
kind
of
facing,
which
makes
I
think,
governance
on
ethereum,
not
particularly
scalable
so
like.
Why
does
the
exiled,
though,
do
everything
unchained?
B
I
think
the
main
reason
around
that
is
that's
like
very
core
value
of
ours
is
to
have
decentralization,
and
it's
started
on
chain
right.
So,
like
textile
started
as
fully
on
chain
governance
raised
all
the
capital
after
being
an
unchained
dao,
where,
where
voting
was
already
in
the
hands
of
400
addresses
right.
If
you
look
at
how
most
governance
is
done
today,
by
most
you
know,
so-called
dows
on
you
know,
ethereum
or
just
in
crypto
in
general.
I
think
they
tend
towards
one
of
two
things
right
like
it's.
B
B
A
B
If
you're
just
giving
this
signed
message
to
a
centralized
service,
so-
and
you
know
nothing
against
us
now-
I'm
sure
they're-
probably
good
people
right,
but
like
that's
really
just
against
the
ethos
of
crypto
and
building
these
trustless
systems
right.
You
don't
want
to
have
these
centralized
choke
points.
B
B
So
you
know
that
that's
a
very
popular
model,
the
snapshot
with
multisig,
but
I
don't
think
it's
very
decentralized
right
or
if
you
look
at
the
word
like
the
middle
word,
is
autonomous
and
autonomous
autonomous
means
like
having
kind
of
independence
right.
Autonomy
means
like
being
sovereign,
being
able
to
deter
like
have
self-determination
as
an
organization
right.
B
To
this
centralized
platform,
that's
easier,
easily
censorable,
right,
like
whether
that's
from
the
team
itself
or
from
outside
forces
that
could
approach
the
snapshot,
team
and
say:
hey
like
you
need
to
to
do
this
right
because
we're
a
powerful
government
and
you
need
to
do
what
we
say
right
and
it
could
kind
of
compromise
the
autonomy
of
a
dao
if
you're,
relying
on
snapchat
same
thing
with
the
multi-secret,
if
it's
like
five
people,
that's
pretty
vulnerable,
I
think
to
censorship
as
well
right.
You
know.
A
B
If
there's
not
like
collusion
or
that
thing,
if
some
powerful
government
goes
to
those
people
and
says
hey
like
you
need
to
do
what
we
say
because
we're
a
powerful
government
and
we're
going
to
like
force
you
to
do
this,
it's
going
to
be
very
vulnerable
to
that.
So
that's
sort
of
yeah,
just
not
very
decentralized,
not
really
great
for
autonomy.
B
So
you
know
I'm
glad
that
there's
all
this
excitement
about
thousands
that
taos
have
proliferated
in
the
past
couple
years,
but
I
think
it's
important
to
kind
of
be
mindful
of
how
decentralized
how
much
autonomy
to
these
organizations
have,
and
those
are
core
values
for
dx
now
and
why
we've
to
this
day
done
everything
on
chain
now.
Another
common,
like
mode
of
operation.
That
I
think
you
see
today,
is
where
everything
actually
is
on
chain-
and
I
think
examples
of
this
are
like
compound
in
unison,.
B
Not
like
a
dig
against
those
projects,
those
are
like
awesome
projects
that
have
paved
the
way
for
defy
like
none
of
us
would
be
here
today
without
them,
but
I
think
they
weren't
really
governance.
First
projects
right:
they
they
implemented
the
government
and
it's
almost
as
like
an
afterthought
as
a
way
to
do
a
token
distribution
right
and.
B
These,
which
may
or
may
not
be
true-
I
don't
I
don't
know,
but
it
certainly
doesn't
feel
like
the
decentralization
or
the
autonomy
of
these,
like
communities
was
really
forefront
in
the
decision-making
of
how
these
went
on,
and
so
I
think
what
you
have
in
some
of
these
cases,
which
is,
I
think,
pretty
common
these
days
is.
It
is
actually
happening
on
chain
and
that's
really
cool.
But
when
you
look
at
the
voting
power,
you
know
it's
erc20
governance
that
voting
power
tends
to
be
actually
pretty
concentrated.
B
B
Because
all
the
tokens
are
held
by
a
few
parties
that
already
coordinate
together
right
so
again,
not
that
great
for
decentralization,
not
really
that
autonomous,
either
right
like
if
it's
a
few
companies
or
whatever
it's
not
hard
for
governments
to
go
after
those
companies
to
censor
them
so
yeah.
I
think
the
core
value
of
these
now
is
to
really
push
the
envelope
on
decentralization
on
autonomy
like
building
internet
native
organizations
that
are
truly
autonomous
right
that
like
operate
on
the
internet,
like
that's
their
jurisdiction
and
and
they
can
be
sovereign
in
that
sense.
B
B
We've
done
to
kind
of
accommodate
the
fact
that,
like
gas
costs
and
just
operational
costs
have
gone
way
up
on,
ethereum
is
moving
like
some
of
the
day-to-day
operations
to
the
extinct
chain.
So
same
setup.
Like
you
know,
you
still
have
everything
being
done
through
the
on-chain
governance
it
it's
actually
easy
to
clone
reputation-based
governance
on
other
chains.
There's
a
cool
talk
done
at
the
taoist
in
lisbon
by
one
of
my
fellow
contributors.
T
x,
dao
this
guy
chris
powers
encourage
you
to
go
check
out
that
talk.
B
He
did
it,
it's
all
about
governance
on
multiple
chains
and
it's
at
the
taoist
in
lisbon.
He
also
writes
this
cool
newsletter
called
dose
of
d5,
but
yeah
like
easy
to
clone.
They
just
were
saying
like
it's
easy
to
clone
the
dxdot
governance
out
of
different
chains,
and
so
what
we've
done
is
set
up
dows
on
xdi
and
arbitram
as
well.
We
call
them
bases,
so
the
xdi
base
handles
a
lot
of
the
day-to-day
operations
like
paying
contributors.
It
doesn't.
A
B
That
much
in
terms
of
funds,
like
the
main
that
dow
sends
over
funds
in
chunks
basically
to
handle
the
next
few
months
of
runway.
But
it's
really
important
just
in
terms
of
allowing
proposals
to
get
put
in
and
people
to
get
paid
without
spending
thousands
of
dollars
in
the
transaction
costs
that
you'd
have
on
mainnet,
so
yeah.
So.
B
We've,
you
know,
had
challenges
with
in
terms
of
scalability,
but
by
kind
of
optimizing
how
things
are
done.
Moving
certain
things
like
the
day-to-day
operations
to
cheaper
side
chains,
we've
found
good
ways
around
this
and
I
think
as
layer
2's
mature
as
eth
2.0
comes
out.
You'll
see
you
know,
the
scalability
of
the
underlying
infrastructure
will
improve
and
that
will
help
us
as
well.
B
I
also
think
there's
actually
a
lot
of
room
for
innovation
on
like
how
the
voting
and
stuff
that
the
voting
itself
can
be
done
in
scalable
ways
right
like
ways
that
maybe
votes
can
be
signed,
off-chain
in
a
way,
that's
still
censorship,
resistant
right
like
not
reliant
upon
a
service
like
snapshot
but
more
of
a
peer-to-peer
network
where
you
get
receipts
or
something
like
that.
I
think
our
architecture
like
that
is
possible.
We
may
see
something
like
that
in
the
future,
where
we
have
much
more
scalable
voting
and
so.
B
A
B
A
B
I
think
it's
important
for
that
to
still
be
on
on
main
net
is
ethereum.
Mainnet
is
the
most
censorship
resistant
most
like.
You
know,
trustless
platform
that
you
can
build
this
on
right
now
right,
so
the
other
platforms
that
we're
on
you
know
eckstein
is
a
it's
an
awesome
chain
awesome
side
chain,
but
the
number
of
validators
is
relatively
small.
A
B
You
like
it,
has
a
lot
of
potential
to
to
be
basically
almost
as
secure
as
ethereum
base
layer,
but
right
now
it's
in
a
beta
and
the
the
arbitrary
team
option
labs,
like
still
controls
like
the
keys
and
has
admin
keys
and
stuff.
So
I
think
the
funds
are
probably
safe,
but
there's
still
a
lot
of
trust
being
put
into
that
that
team.
So
for
now,
I
think
ethereum
is
still
where
it's
at
for
for
something,
that's
really
pushing
decentralization
autonomy
and
trying
to
be
hardcore
about
those
values.
A
Until
you
talk
to
someone
like
you,
like
yourself,
that
you
have
you're
part
of
a
doubt
that
needs
to
decide
where
to
put
like
the
funds
of
the
whole
organization
where
to
put
all
of
the
funds
of
the
people
that
are
involved
in
it
and
you're
right.
You
want
to
you,
don't
want
to
take
chances
with
things
that
might
not
be
fully
secure,
although
it
would,
if
you
wouldn't
ask
the
average
person
in
the
note
they
wouldn't
tell
you
that
x,
die
is
likely
to
get
hacked
next
week
right.
B
Were
to
go
and
bridge
over
to
polygon
now,
you're,
even
if
polygon
itself
is
like
some
level
of
decentralization,
which
is
not
super
clear
to
me,
itself
is
you're
still
trusting
that
bridge
to
get
the
funds
over
right
and
that
bridge
is
controlled
by
a
very
small
group.
Pretty
centralized
and
yeah.
That's
just
not
acceptable
risk
when
it
comes
to
handling
a
nine-figure.
B
A
B
A
A
B
A
B
B
Size
wars,
I
think,
were
probably
really
like
what
really
put
the
kind
of
sealed
the
deal
there
in
terms
of
like
what
direction
the
community
would
be
in
like
the
bitcoin
cash
was
arguing
that,
like
you
needed
to
do
some
things
to
make
it
more
usable
and
more,
you
know
more
transaction
fees
and
stuff,
and
that
was
sort
of
rejected
by
the
core
bitcoin
community
and
developers,
and
then
the
narrative
that's
really
taken
off
since
then
is
digital
gold.
But
yeah.
If
you
go
back,
go
read
the
white
paper
right.
B
B
It's
fixed
supply,
sound
money,
digital
gold,
but
yeah.
I
don't
know,
as
the
block
rewards
go
to
zero
and
there's
no
transaction
fees.
I
don't
see
a
good
solution
to
actually
funding
security,
so
I
think
what
you'll
eventually
see-
and
it
may
take
a
decade
to
play
out
or
more
right-
is
that
at
some
point
people
will
realize
that
security
of
bitcoin
is
in
question
is
kind
of
fundamentally
a
big
issue
and
they're
gonna
have
the
only
choice
I
think
they'd
have
is
maybe
by
minting
more
or
like
changing
the
21
million.
A
Very
interesting
theory
I
mean
it's
ironic,
I
don't
think
I'm
not
sure
if
that
could
happen
being
the
way
the
bitcoin
community
is,
or
at
least
the
hardcore
between
communities.
Actually,
that's
like
the
closest
we
have
to
like
left
and
right
politically
dichotomy
right
in
crypto,
you
other
thing:
bitcoin
is
digital
gold
or
or
that
it's
like
going
against
his
mission
to
be
digital
cash,
but
I
mean
I
digress.
Yeah
there's
this
theory
that
all
the
bitcoin
could
end
up
wrapped
up
in
year,
z20
or
tokens
or
another
chains.
B
And
they're
absolutely
possible
yeah.
Some
people
have
said
if
bitcoin
survives,
it's
going
to
be
as
an
erc20
token
on
ethereum
and,
like
maybe
the
mean
meme
of
bitcoin
like
lives
on,
but
it's
secured
by
the
ethereum
blockchain
right
and
it's
just
just
that
the
wrapped
bitcoin
or
some
token
on
the
on
the
ethereum
blockchain
yeah.
I
could
see
that
potentially
I
mean
I
think.
Bitcoin
has
the
original
right
as
like
the
pioneer
there.
B
Like
the
idea
of
like
changing
the
supply
cap
or
something
that
seemed
like
seems
like
it
would
be
an
existential
crisis
for
the
community
and,
like
I
don't
know,
I
have
a
hard
time,
imagining
bitcoin
really
like
kind
of
handling
it
right.
It
seems
like
a
community
in
denial
about
this
issue,
so
I
think
when
it
finally
is
forced
to
face
it
face
it,
it's
it's
not
going
to
be
pretty.
That's
just.
A
Kind
of
to
your
point
that
there's
a
bit
of
a
denial
going
there,
because
the
security
argument
used
to
be
like
at
a
talking
point
right.
Oh
but
bitcoin
is
a
lot
more
secure
than
ethereum,
but
nowadays,
when
the
when
ethereum
is
fully
emerged
and
it
has
fully
transitioned
and
everything
is
said
and
done
it's
going
to
be
a
lot
more
secure
than
ethereum-
I
mean
the
bitcoin.
So
that
argument
is
pretty
much
done.
A
B
A
That
are
very
interesting
and
that
I
would
want
to
share
with
you.
The
excel
also
governs
all
the
different
protocols
that
you
guys
developed
right.
That's
right,
yeah,
and
I
think
I
thought
in
my
mind
this
looks
super
smart
because
I
see
things
like
what
we
were
saying
with
uni
swap
I
I
you
do
see.
Some
things
are
born
sort
of
out
of
hyperactivity,
and
you
see
that
a
lot
of
what's
happening
within
the
uni
swap
dial
is
a
lot
of
hyperactivity.
A
Not
much
ever
gets
done,
but
there
are
proposals
all
the
time
for
everything
and
yeah
sort
of
like
the
government.
The
governance
is
sort
of
all
over
the
place,
and
I
reckon
if
this
dao
had
something
better
to
do.
None
of
this
would
probably
happen
at
all,
so
it
makes
sense
to
me,
like
the
developers
are
not
focusing
on
continuously
polishing
as
much
as
possible
one
protocol,
but
developing
a
wide
ecosystem
of
things.
But
how
do
you
see
this.
B
Yeah,
I
think
I
think,
there's
a
big
role
for
governance
to
play
in
all
kinds
of
things,
but
like
uniswap's,
an
interesting
example
though,
because
you
know
especially
unit
swap
v1,
there's
really
like
no
need
for
governance,
and
you
just
swap
v1
right
like
there's
a
protocol
fee
that
can
be
no
v1
doesn't
even
have
a
protocol
v2.
I
think,
actually,
I'm
forgetting
how
whether
v1
has
a
protocol
here
or
not.
I
don't
think
it
does.
B
B
That
is
like
a
venue
for
liquidity
providers
and
traders
that
come
on
on
chain
and,
like
you
know,
trade
and-
and
so
in
that
sense
I
think
it's
very
elegant
and
I'm
actually
all
for,
like
minimizing
governance
to
the
extent
possible
like
it
seems
to
be
like
an
optimal
thing
to
do
right,
like
it's
just
more
efficient.
If,
if
you
don't,
if
you
can
do
it
without
governance,
then
that's
great,
because
governance
can
be
slow,
it
can
be
like
complicated.
B
So
I
I
view
I
don't
know
if
this
really
answers
your
question
so
feel
free
to
ask
it
again,
but,
like
I
kind
of
view
like
the
role
of
the
external
governance,
to
have
a
pretty
wide
scope.
But
I
don't
think
that
means
that
we
that
governance
should
be
like
applied
to
everything
right.
I
actually
think,
like
you,
want
to
remove
governance
wherever
possible,
but
that
I
think,
there's
just
a
lot
of
stuff
that
it's
kind
of
unavoidable
and
will
be
needed.
I
don't
know
if
that
answers
you
no.
A
B
Yeah
well
so,
and
I
mean
I
think
there
are
ways
in
which
tx
style
is
fractalizing,
so
to
speak,
and
I
think
you'll
maybe
see
this
as
a
trend
in
general,
but
so
there's
multiple
projects
right
now,
under
the
dxtel
umbrella
and
recently
a
token
was
launched
for
the
exchange.
The
exchange
is
called
swapper.
The
token
is
swpr
swapper
token,
and
the
goal
right
now
is
actually
to
stand
up.
What
we're
calling
a
guild,
which
is
sort
of
just
like
a
sub-dial
for
swapper
right,
so
that
will
be
governance.
A
B
No,
no,
that's
a
very
good
question.
So
rails
is
essentially
defunct,
like
it
was
a
interface
to
the
loop
ring
layer.
Two
which
is
zk
roll
up.
They
have
a
blueprint,
has
a
dex,
but
it's
also
functionally
supports
it.
Functionally
supports
transfers
and
so
rails
was
just
a
ui
that
would
support
doing
transfers
on
an
earlier
version
of
blueprint.
Bloopering
has
since
involved
and
dxdow
didn't,
like
the
community,
didn't
see
a
good
business
case
for
rails,
so
that
development
on
that
was
just
continued
and,
like
the
project
is
basically
dead.
B
Now
it
was.
It
was
a
cool
concept
and
then
project
that
had
actually
been
gifted
to
the
excel
from
a
hackathon
by
the
blueprint
community
but
yeah.
That
was
a
cool
idea,
but
it
is
basically
dead.
Now
aqua
is
a
totally
different
story.
That's
actually
a
new
concept
that
is
meant
to
be
a
successor
to
mesa.
So
basically,
like
I
mentioned
earlier,
is
a
front
end
to
the
gnosis
protocol
decks.
B
A
lot
of
the
use
that
it
got
in
2020
was
through
projects
doing
ido's
or
initial
dex
offerings
on
top
of
of
the
gnosis
protocol
and
offering
it
through
mesa.
So
since
that
was
sort
of
where
basically
was
getting
traction
that
kicked
off
an
effort
to
focus
on
building
an
ideo,
specific
platform
or
token
launch
platform
for
dx
dao,
but
instead
of
calling
it
mesa.
Eventually,
the
decision
was
made
to
rebrand
it
as
aqua.
So
a
decent
amount
of
development
has
been
done.
B
There's
actually
like
an
mvp,
that's
ready
to
go
to
audit,
but
it's
queued
up
now
in
the
audit
pipeline,
as
the
decision
has
been
made
to
focus
more
on
swapper
and
governance
right
now
into
and
to
hold
off
on
development
for
the
time
being
in
aqua,
and
that's
really
just
driven
by
the
limiting
limited
resources
right.
Just
like
not
having
trouble
finding
enough
developers
to
work
on
all
these
things.
B
We
we
felt
that
basically,
things
were
spread
a
little
bit
too
thin
and
that
we
wanted
to
really
be
successful
and
and
put
a
good
amount
of
effort
into
the
things
that
were
priorities
for
our
focus.
So
we
consolidated
efforts
around
swapper
and
around
governance
for
the
time
being,
as
we
kind
of
build
up
dev
capacity.
So
we
still
have
a
lot.
We
have
over
a
dozen
folks
working
on
the
product
team,
so
we
don't
have
like
a
lack
of
resources
overall,
but
it's
just
not
enough
to
cover
all.
A
A
B
A
A
That's
a
very
interesting
thought
there,
because
I
know
people
that
believe
in
market
cycles,
and
I
know
people
that
don't
believe
in
them.
I
I
personally
like
I'm
always
like
careful
to
underline
that
markup
market
cycles
are
based
on,
like
our
experience,
doing
a
cycle
like
four
times
so
they're,
not
like
one,
something
that
we're
100
sure
that's
an
objective
reality
of
our
market,
but
it
is
very
interesting
and
I
would
reckon
if
I
was
working
on
id5
protocol.
A
B
B
These
physics,
things
that
I
think
we
understand
and
can
ascribe
rules
to
and
kind
of,
know
what
what
is
like
driving
it
so
yeah
like.
I
don't
think
it's
a
given
or
any
kind
of
physical
law
that
the
market
will
go
in
cycles.
But
I
would
say
my
my
personal
experience
and
you
know
from
talking
to
other
people
and
looking
maybe
historically
at
different
markets.
You
know
experience,
I
think,
shows
that
it
is
a
just
a
phenomenon
that
repeats
itself
right
and
we've
seen
it
in
crypto.
B
A
B
B
Driven
not
so
much
by
like
the
real
you
know,
people
like
to
talk
about
what's
actually
happening.
You
know,
there's
these
big
things
happening
like
launches
of
new
chains
and
stuff
and
of
course
the
innovation
is
driving
it,
but
I
think
the
market
cycles
seem
to
almost
have
like
a
life
of
their
own
right,
that's
more
driven
by
high
people
and
human
psychology
than
the
actual
technical
progress.
It's
like
the
technical
progress
is
sort
of
following
a
somewhat
linear
path,
but
you
have
this
like
wildly
oscillating
market
cycle.
That's.
A
B
A
B
Garbage,
like
I
think,
in
these
bull
markets,
you
tend
to
see
just
a
lot
of
kind
of
yeah
in
name
activity.
That
is
just
a
derived
from
all
the
excitement
and
the
hype
and,
of
course,
it's
great
to
see
the
energy
and
it's
great
to
see
the
influx
of
capital
but
yeah.
I
think
it
yeah.
I
think
it
gets
a
little
distracting
from
like
the
core
building
and
so
in
some
ways
it's
actually
nice
to
be
in
a
bear
market.
If.
B
A
B
A
B
We
finish,
I
think
we
did
a
good
job.
You
know
even
kind
of
dove
into
some
of
the
things
that
were
most
exciting
about
like
carrot,
which
is
the
programmable
incentives
platform
that's
about
to
be
launched
and
the
governance
2.0.
I
think
those
are
like
what
we're
really
excited
about
and
focused
on
right
now
and
was
glad
that
we
got
to
cover
those
so
yeah.
I
think
we've
covered
the
bases
and
it's
been
a
fun
conversation.
Carlos
thanks.
Thanks
for
having
me.