Koha-US SIG - Circulation Special Interest Group, 27 Sep 2022

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From YouTube: Circulation Special Interest Group @ KohaCon22

Description

Leader:
- Daniel Gaghan (Pueblo City-County Library District)

A

A

B

Coming up uh just a moment there, it is it's there, all.

A

Right so I was just saying that uh I've been on this committee. I. Think for or this is a group for about two years and I was wondering if someone wanted to to take it over.

A

um Just send me an email or you can comment to the the Circ dot, uh the Quahog Cirque Sig email list, and we can get that ball rolling. But um nothing didn't have any new announcements to make. But I did have a couple of topics and I was wondering if uh Georgetta at a library, Liberty Lake, Municipal Library was there and uh I'm.

C

A

Cool, uh do you want to start with your first topic? What's the PayPal topic, yeah.

C

I was wondering if um I'm sorry, just a second I gotta go up there. All right.

B

She's going to come to the front of the room hold on a sec: oh she's, sprinting wow, oh nice, hi, Chris,.

C

I'm just curious: um if there's anybody else, that's using the PayPal option and if so, if you send your patrons to collection, how you work with um the payments on that, um do they does it matter? How does it work anything like that, if anybody's using it.

A

Well, we use PayPal through Discovery our OPAC. We don't use it through coha. We, if I'm understanding the crush question correctly. We just use PayPal through a payment system. We don't use it to for anything other than that.

A

um Does anybody else have an answer to georgetta's question.

B

What's going on.

D

I'm sorry I had to step out of the room to answer a text from one of my kids. So I'm not sure what the question is, but we do use PayPal.

C

How does it work, do you send patrons to collection, or how does that well,.

D

um Our library, my libraries, are I manage a Consortium of 51 libraries and when we originally started using PayPal, it was the integrated built-in PayPal system into coha, which has since been removed and turned into a plug-in, and so the plugin has a lot of advantages. Because, with the original system, you could only input one PayPal account, and so what kind of Library are you at? Is it one library is a multi.

C

D

Oh oh you're from uh okay, which Library Liberty.

C

D

I used to be a LaSalle County, Library yeah. um So if, if cin has the PayPal plug-in installed, um what you can do is you can set up a separate for Liberty Lake? You would be able to go in and set up all the PayPal credentials just for Liberty Lake, so that when a patron logs in to the OPAC and their uh and their home library is Liberty Lake they would uh any payments they make would come to the Liberty Lake PayPal account and to set it up.

D

You need to First, you need to create the PayPal account and then you need to get a uh a bunch of authentication tokens from them and you need to tie it to a bank account where the money will be deposited.

D

um There's one setting in koha that you have to have set correctly and it has to do um I know. Andrew helped me with this and I guess: Nick isn't in the room anymore. Nick would probably know, there's a system preference that determines how many results you get uh in uh in, like a Json report, a public report and you have to make sure that that number is set high enough. So that, like you, guys have what 28 branches in cin that number has to be set higher than 28.

D

Otherwise, not all of the results in the PayPal plug-in will show up um so there's a little bit of setup, but uh but once it's set up um once it's set up, it's pretty seamless for the patrons they log in if their home library is not a library that is using PayPal, they don't see the PayPal options, but if their library is um any money that they pay to PayPal will be deposited into your account.

D

The trickier part is that then you're going to need some reports to know you're going to need to run some reports regularly to determine what is being paid through PayPal and in your situation like if you've got multiple libraries, if they're paying for a lost item like if you're a Liberty Lake and their lost item is owned by Coeur d'alene you're going to need to to know yeah. That's that's the issue and that that's a more of a report issue than an actual setup with PayPal. So are you?

D

Do you guys have the PayPal plug-in already installed?

D

C

That's why I was built is using it the way.

D

Well, I I can certainly talk to Christopher about it because I talked to him like all the goddamn.

D

We talk to each other every couple of weeks. So um if you guys have questions about that, maybe we could even do a video about setting up the PayPal plugin.

D

So, um but definitely when we're when this meeting's over, we can sit down and talk and I can show you some I can show both of you. Some of the configurations on my laptop over here Daniel was about to ask a question. I think so. Actually.

A

I was going to say that we have a report that that shows all the payments made through PayPal so willing to share that with you. You you're, probably gonna, have to configure it because it is uh there's some that is specific to our District, but you might find it useful. So.

E

D

Sure so it's Georgette, so it's George and jorad Georgette talking about PayPal.

A

Some Kismet there or something right, yeah,.

C

B

Think somebody had their hand raised in the chat there too Daniel. Okay,.

A

Let me see if we can find the chat.

B

A

A

Yeah Georgette: do you want to get your your second question? Yeah.

C

Obviously, I have a question.

A

That's what we're here for yeah.

C

Does anybody use the cash register option of like using the cash a cash box, but we can't use a cash box? We have to use a cash register, so I'm wondering. Is there any way that poha can talk to a cash register? um Anything like that. Does anybody do anything like that.

C

I'm, a Municipal Library, so I have to have an actual cash register. That I can you know, keep track of auditing and and all that.

A

So we don't use the cash register at pccld, but does anybody else.

C

C

Yeah I can't hear you.

F

um We have a cash register that should be in the Smithsonian um yeah. It's really bad I, actually called a couple of times and I had my I.T guy call with me and when they answered the phone they actually laughed at me and said that oh, my God I can't believe you're still using that machine um anyway. So about six months ago it stopped taking credit cards, so it's been a little bit challenging. But anyway, what we're doing is um we're. Gonna switch over to uh TBS point of sale system.

F

We've actually been using TBS now for our print management and we're very happy with it for the most part, so we're switching over and um I'm excited because it is going to integrate with cohof, so it'll be really nice to um not have to five steps to get rid of a patron fine or a lost and damaged charge. So.

C

A

So do you want to get to your third question? Oh.

C

I got somebody um answering something here: really quick: okay,.

E

ah But I'm loud um we use the cash register option on co-law, but we print it as a report and then we compare it to our handwritten stuff. um We do have an electronic register, but we don't take cards or anything.

E

um We don't have that capability, um but we I mean we just compare it to our daily step, to kind of be more of a checks and balances, but we're not able to you know it's whatever's in Co in koha, in the in this in the catalog and stuff like that, but like any donations or stuff that we have there, it's not put in there. It's their separate belief, issues that compare to make sure people are writing down. What they're supposed to be writing down in the receipts.

E

They come out say what they're supposed to say right.

C

I think for us, um the idea of there's so many steps that if we could just do a cash register- and maybe everything would balance and I wouldn't have so many gray hairs.

C

Okay does anybody else have I have one more but there's one in front of me: I, don't know if they want me to go next, since I am.

A

Now you go for it I. It was one of my questions and I just messed up the order stuff. Okay,.

C

Thanks my last question was: um as I mentioned, we are a Municipal Library, so we tend to run things a little bit differently and I have to follow the rules of of my city um as well as as other things, and so one thing that uh koha frustrates me about is: when you check in a lost item, it refunds, the fine and that messes up anything that goes to collection, because we do have to send people to collection.

C

um Is anybody? Does anybody have a workaround, for that? Is there anything that you know won't stop or that you know won't refund? They lost fine.

C

Oh, we have somebody in the room that may have an answer.

G

So I think that is handled um can be handled in the circulation of fine rules. um What do you mean.

C

G

C

G

All right, all right, so I'm gonna pull something up. So maybe I misunderstood your question. That's why I was asking what you meant. What.

C

I meant was when it checks it in, and it refunds the the fine right.

G

C

The Lost charge that messes me up right, so it needs to stop and not do that. You.

G

Don't want it to check in or.

C

You don't want it to refund I, don't want it.

G

Let me pull up I there's a a box in the search Final rules.

C

It does it for everything. I wanted like 70 days over two.

C

Because they're already a collection, oh the loss, we charge per items if they're 70 days overdue um and they could go to collection over 50 dollars. But when you check in the item that amount of that item goes.

G

C

I don't want that to go away because I've already sent them to collection that amount yeah.

G

There is a system preference I, see Daniels pulling that up, which is a system-wide thing. So that's probably what's going on with you guys. I was thinking in the Cirque finals, they're like below, where you put in your circle and rules, there's an option to say yes refund or don't refund.

C

Right, better everything and I.

G

Need it just to be me.

C

G

Not that part shouldn't, because it's in the circulation and Final, um the the part that is system-wide, is telling it when you want it to charge like where you wanted to charge.

G

C

I didn't know if there was something else. Everybody had a workaround if there's anything out there, because when you check it in and it takes that final way, if I've sent the reflection a hundred dollars and they return four items over twenty five dollars now, my collection amounts don't match and you have to just.

D

D

No refund on Lost returned items. Age I think the issue here is that we're talking about two different issues with between fines and lost fees, because what um I think what CR? What we're talking about is the Lost item fee and what you're talking about is a late fee. It's a lost item fee, okay. Well, then, then, I'm stymied.

C

And now that, basically was just wondering: is anybody in anywhere have any type of work around or anything.

C

Is anybody working with collections? Thank.

A

You well, wouldn't you be able to on the the no refund on Lost returned items: age, uh don't refund lost fees for lost item is checked out for if you said like one day it won't, it won't refund those fines and have you tried that.

C

I, don't know that we have.

D

Well and I think the issue I think what might be part of the issue here too, is that um she's asking a question about one library in a Consortium of 28 libraries, where they're doing something different than the other 27 libraries, which I see, is probably an opportunity for a koha enhancement to make that kind of setting a part of the individual libraries circulation rules rather than as a global system preference that affects all libraries in the Consortium.

C

Right, you got.

D

C

D

Think that that's the issue, that's I, think that's. The underlying issue here is that that the the system preference affects all libraries, but but what we're looking for in georgette's situation is a assist. Is a single Library circulation-based rule change that can't be managed at a single library now, because the system preference affects all libraries.

C

Right because there are about three of us in this, the the consortia that sends them to collection, the rest don't or they handle it differently. So, thank you, George. You understand, Georgette, speak yeah, okay, I think that's all I had Daniel. Thank you. That's.

A

No problem I usually have to trans translate stuff into Daniel anyway, so.

C

You know he's pretty good. It takes a lot to translate it from Georgette speaks so yeah. It's our name. That's that's. What did it yeah yeah thanks. Everybody thanks.

A

So um Rebecca I had a report that says that she uses the find negative fines to remove them from their accounts and.

A

Guessing that's when they, when you check them in.

A

Yeah and they were funded.

A

Do you have a chance to are you able to talk about this a little bit, Rebecca yeah sure thanks.

H

So we have, the problem is similar to her. So it's that we do work with collections, but it's been turned off during the pandemic and what we're doing when we have lost books that are returned um their build, their replacement cost of the item and, let's say that's twenty dollars when they return the item.

H

The Lost item comes off the patrons account, but then the fine for it becomes a negative, fine, so they're showing a credit of twenty dollars on our account, and we don't do credits so I have to find these once a week and go through and manually void out all of these lost items that have been returned and refunded fines or credits from patrons accounts.

H

So it luckily our collections are turned off, but I can see how that would cause a problem if our, if they were actively being sent negative amounts to ums.

A

Okay, now I get you yeah.

A

We had a similar problem, we were doing collections there would people would come in and return the material and the fine would be reduced or waived altogether, and then we had to find some way to communicate with our collections vendor to tell them that these fines were waived, and we used a report that we sent to them by water set up a Cron job to to do it every week, but we turned it off because we we haven't been in using collections in a little bit in about a year since the pandemic, but um yeah.

A

That report would probably be really really helpful because it does create kind of a mess when people return it and they get those fines waived. So.

H

Well, I'm happy to share if anyone needs.

A

B

Christopher here just to add to that and to go back to georgette's previous question, you know so we're talking about uh Collections and in both cases um you know it's it's hard for her to to deal with it's hard for any of the libraries to deal with uh those collections when uh the charges have disappeared uh for those Fringe cases, and so you know trying to nail down a perfect scenario for that complicates it. You know it's not like.

B

We have some way in koha to flag those Collections and you know prevent them from being checked in at all, or you know, I mean we can prevent them from being checked in, but we can't prevent cohab from removing that charge, because that's how we have our system set up. You know it checks it in so when you tell it to not check it in it doesn't not remove the charge, which is really weird.

B

It seems like if you tell it to remove move that charge on check-in, but you tell it not to to check things in under certain circumstances. It shouldn't do that charge as well, but it is even though it blocks it from being checked in.

B

It still removes the charge, and so we've had a hard time working around this particular scenario with with uh with collections, um but going back to PayPal thing that that even complicates collections more because um from my understanding from our demo that we had on the PayPal um it was, you know who, which PayPal was being used, was determined by the patron Home Library, yes, and so it's it's not necessarily and that's kind of that's kind of weird, particularly in PayPal, because in PayPal it should go directly to the owner, not to the circulating library.

B

In that case, and that's a little weird, it would be nice if there was a preference to switch it to either or or have some sort of rules for that. But in this case you know, if a patron from library a borrowed a book from Library b and uh was being charged for that book.

B

It's going to uh that that money is going to library, A's PayPal instead of Library bees and that's complicated, because, depending on libraries and the municipalities or the cities or whoever they don't like to uh circulate money around between them a lot and it gets into a sticky mess. When we have one Library being paid. And then you have to write a check or send money somehow to that other library, and it would be preferable if we had a way to just send it directly to the correct libraries. Paypal account.

D

Yeah I think some of the issues that come up with specifically with that part of the PayPal plug-in is that when you're logged in to when you're logged into the OPAC and there's that list of fines there or fees, it's really easy to determine who the who's logged in, but with a fine or a fee.

D

If the fee is connected to an item, koha should be able to figure out which Library owns that item, but a lot of times those fees there's nothing there that connects that fee to a specific Library, um there's nothing in the in the account lines that ties that fee to a library. uh If there's no item record connected to that account line, um if you know there's just a whole bunch of issues there with you know, I think the mechanics of koha.

D

It's really easy to tell who the patron is and and where their home library is. But it's a lot more complicated for KOA to figure out who owns the fine or the fees. So I think that's why it was set up that way.

D

So once again, I think it's an opportunity for development um so uh and the other thing about the PayPal plug-in is it can be set up so that only one Library, the the current PayPal plug-in can be installed in a coha and then it can be set up so that it uh so that uh maybe you've got 28 libraries and maybe only five of them. Are you using PayPal? Look. The PayPal plugin can be set up that way. So what if the item? That's that's owned?

D

uh That has the fine on it is uh checked out by a borrower from Liberty Lake but where they use, where they're, where the PayPal plug-in has been set up to to work for that Library and but the uh but the patrons home library is Coeur d'alene, where they're not set up with the PayPal plugin.

D

So maybe the patron comes in and there they've checked out the book at Liberty Lake, but it's owned by Coeur, d'alene, and so then PayPal has to be able to know that it can't pay Coeur d'alene for that item and I. Think that introduces a whole other level of complexity.

D

So uh so I can see. Probably why maybe you didn't want to use it? The way we have it configured is that all of the PayPal money goes to one place and then we distribute it, but we're in a completely different situation, for you are because then you are because you don't have a Knuckles. You guys are just there's no Central office managing your consortiums.

D

Well, there isn't a there is sort of, but it you know uh for us, it's an institution, that's managing the Consortium on behalf of other people, and so all that money just comes to our institution, and we pass it back to the members and in your situation it's a little less centralized than that, so that that I think is, is part of the issue here.

B

And uh you know one of the one of the things that we were looking at going into this um PayPal wasn't as when, when we last looked at PayPal when I last looked at PayPal I think at that the time that I looked at it, it was only set up for one PayPal account at the time, and now it's set up for multiple. So when we got the demo, we found out oh great. Well, it does. It does handle multiple uh PayPal accounts now, which is great but yeah it.

B

um You know, and we do have that option I mean we could have it, go through a central account and have our cin office, which we do have uh parsed that out, but that's a whole lot of work that that they don't want.

B

Yes, it is a pain, um and you know then there's the added you know on top of all of that, there's the added! uh Well, if something goes to collections, we don't want them to be able to pay for that via Paypal. You know we want them to come into the library, and so there's no way to you know specify you can't pay for this online as opposed to the other items, and so there there are a few things that still need to mature within PayPal and with that within cohort itself.

B

uh You know we do desperately need more of a workflow in koha for for collections, but also you know, PayPal needs to be uh matured a little bit in I mean it's come a long way and it's it's fantastic. You know if it's a single library or a library, that's funneling, all their money into one place where they're divvying it out that's a great scenario, but it's still not perfect for a multi-library system where the money needs to go to the right people.

B

Oh George is coming back.

D

I just want to say that I love consortiums, but there are so many things that would be. My life would be so much simpler if I just had one Library.

A

Yeah thankfully I'm just in a district, so I only had eight branches to to manage, but uh guys consortiums. If you got my respect, man, that's a lot of uh a lot to manage. But if anybody's noticed uh Wally put in the chat, he's got a write-off report um and that he runs on a Cron job and that's actually probably would probably be really really useful if we were still doing collections and getting to see those when they come in and developed a workflow around them.

A

But uh if, if anybody's interested, definitely take a look at the chat and ask all if they're important, he probably would be willing to share it with you. So now anybody else have any questions. I've, just I've, all those paypals and and and fines reports are very important. Mine seems a little on the on the kind of the low end of the important scale. So.

A

Okay, well, I'll just show you what I was talking about and it's the red cancel X near the the data selector or the date selector in on the holds it's on the items and um I've had some staff ask about it and it was I'll show you it, but they say they kept stabbing that instead of the cancel they just kind of missed the cancel button and see this instead.

A

I'm talking about this one right here and so they'll cancel that trying to cancel the hold and I wonder why they won't do it and then they're, like oh yeah, the holds over here and that's how you cancel the hold, but just wondering if anybody else had noticed that I thought that was kind of excessive or something we, you probably can hide it with uh jQuery. But just was anybody else had any staff that was talking about it. So.

D

I think there are column headings, it's just I, don't think we can see them clearly on the screen. There was a question here in the room. um What I was going to say is that I've noticed that myself that the X looks a lot like it should like, you would expect it maybe to cancel, um and so the two things that I've thought about doing it with uh some jQuery are to add a tool tip there. That says clear date um for the x's and then um I've also thought about writing some CSS or jQuery.

D

That would highlight the cancel button. A little better, maybe make the background on the cancel button red make it say, cancel hold is what Christopher suggests both of those are things that uh that could easily be done with jQuery and CSS.

D

What was that yeah and that's another suggestion? um What I yeah Liz is saying. Liz is demanding somebody file a bug and that's what you should do. Daniel um file, a bug saying that and in the meantime uh I would you know, write some CSS or some jQuery to to say, cancel, hold and and uh modify the the X. Maybe with the tool tip that says clear date. Liz is going to come up here and yell at everybody.

D

I think she just says: she's not going to yell, but she was yelling across the room just a second ago by.

A

All means please what.

E

So I just wanted to have a moment and talk to you about jQuery and CSS. Okay, I am.

E

um So I think that we often find is when you put on a lot of CSS and jQuery in your library system. It comes time for upgrades and we'll do an upgrade and something will be broken in a way that isn't expected.

E

For something like this, where you're really talking about a usability problem- and you have evidence for your usability problem, which excellent and this is awesome- um you really want to file a bug and say I feel this is a usability problem and they'll be like correct. That is a usability problem. I'm looking at this right now on the screen and I'm, seeing that, in fact, the cancel button is not very apparent and it would make more sense for it to say, cancel hold and even maybe be a little more prominent.

E

This feels like a usability problem before you go right in CSS and put non-genquery that might break in an upgrade. I would suggest maybe file a bug, and if you really can't stand it then maybe consider writing for the interim, but don't be surprised if it breaks. That's all that's my soapbox I'm getting off now have a nice day.

A

I think there's been several instances where, like hey, why is that working? Oh yeah, we we upgraded into CSS and you got to go back and find out. What's what's broken in that and yeah there's been a couple of moments where I've scratched my head about why it's not something not working some guilty, but yeah I'll probably submit a bug at some point and and mentioned it to the circulation group, see if anybody else can get behind it and or they if there's a duplicate. Maybe there is a duplicate book.

A

I'll look in I haven't checked uh bugzilla. Yet, though, I.

B

Will say Liz if you want, if you want more people to file bugs take away our jQuery and CSS options.

A

No, please don't please, please.

E

I'm not gonna lie to you. I've thought about it.

A

So does anybody else have any questions.

A

Chris is there any way to to pan to see the room or because I just got the.

B

Jason is taking care of it, but I also think we have another. Don't we have another? Don't we have another uh camera shot in there? Okay,.

B

G

B

A

So we've still got about 40 minutes and if, uh if you don't want to listen to Fred's poems, you know bring up a topic.

A

Not to say I, don't like his poems I thought his last one was very good. A nice nice play on uh uh The Raven by Edgar Allan Poe, so it's very, very creative.

D

Be careful because if you, if you're saying that the one you just heard was based on the Raven he's done another one since then that you missed and because you haven't heard it he might get up and do it again.

A

Well, we don't need that, but if he wants to send it to me as a jake uh as a PDF or no not a PDF, but uh some type of sound file I've, definitely listen to it. I do enjoy his phone so.

D

Fred Fred is at the back of the room and he's looking pretty worn out. I, don't think he's got the energy to come up here and read another poem.

D

Oh he's threatening to do the central line infection poem which, uh which I've heard before and it's it's good, but but uh be careful. What you wish for man right.

A

A

What I will do was I, don't have any other topics, don't have any more announcements, just if you, uh if you are interested in and taking over the circulation seg just give us a holler and uh we'll get the ball rolling on that. But.

B

um I think everybody in the room said four more years. Four more years.

A

I don't know, um but oh gotta chat.

A

Hey I'll submit the the ticket and mention it on the on the search. So if you aren't a part of the uh the Circ um email list definitely get on there and you can have some conversations but.

A

So just a reminder that we meet the first Tuesday of every month and the I can ever get the the time zone thingy right, but it's 11 uh Mountain Standard Time, and it's was it. Is it one o'clock, Eastern Standard and 10 o'clock? Pacific Standard. Definitely correct me if I'm wrong, I send out a weekly agenda request the the week before most times, and you probably can edit the uh the agenda.

A

So just add topics and I'll check it and then once we have our meeting, we'll we'll go over them and uh definitely come, and you know ask any any question you have 10 Pacific I said that right, but anyway um yeah we would love people. We love topics and any topics. That's slightly uh circulation.

A

Ish is definitely welcome and.

A

And they're not are there any other questions? Last call.

A

Oh, we got a plug for a bug. I'm.

B

Going to take a look at it, real quick, yeah Jason said Rebecca did that yeah.

H

Yes, I would greatly appreciate any more comments or votes or CC's or anything on this bug. um It would make my life a lot easier.

H

uh The dreaded claims returned yeah.

A

Yeah I agree. I'll, definitely comment on this. We get questions about this a lot so.

B

Just to clarify for people in the room, they can't read the screen. It says, oh initially, on there, it says it would be helpful to libraries if claims returned was moved out of the Lost value. It is confusing for patrons and staff to see a claims return as a lost item and there are items or there are times when an item needs to be marked both as lost and claims return, and combining these into one field can be a challenge.

A

Definitely agree: are there any other bugs that anybody has submitted or or noticed that they want to mention plug for circulation.

B

Nothing here: okay,.

A

Oh I guess this would if we can call it our apps and you guys get a 15 minute extra break and uh I'll see you guys at the circulation meeting. Okay,.