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A
Today's
meeting
is
being
live
streamed
on
the
Leeds
city
council
website,
so
public,
so
public
mem.
If
members
of
the
public
would
like
to
watch
the
meeting
online,
they
can
do
without
being
present.
I
would
now
like
to
invite
members
and
officers
to
introduce
themselves
and
I'm
going
to
go
from
my
left.
A
Please
remember
to
turn
your
microphones
off
once
you've
introduced
yourself
and
then
moving
on
to
the
next
person.
Thank
you.
B
Morning,
everybody
so
I'm,
Jonathan
Foster,
so
I
am
the
senior
head
of
audit
corporate
governance
and
insurance
and
I
am
also
acting
today
as
lead
officer
to
the
committee.
A
Morning,
Sarah
Condrey,
representing
information
management
and
governance.
A
Good
morning,
everyone
I'm
going
to
ask
Debbie
to
move
the
agenda
items.
Please.
N
Thank
you
chair
under
gender
item
one.
We
have
no
appeals
against
refusal
of
inspection
of
documents.
Agenda
item
two:
there
are
no
exempt
items:
a
gender
item:
three.
There
are
no
late
items,
a
gender
item
for
credis
members
to
declare
any
interests
and
I
take
silence.
As
there
are
none
agenda
item
five,
we
have
received
apologies
from
councilor,
Smith,
hesselwood
and
heartbrook
councilor
down.
Counselor
Downs
is
here
as
substitute
for
Council
heartbrook
and
councilor.
Taylor
is
here
a
substitute
for
councilor
hesselwood.
Thank
you,
chair.
M
Yes,
there's
a
couple
of
items
from
those
minutes
item
77
on
Match
meeting
Aquarius
raised
regarding
the
relation
in
relation
sorry
to
the
internal
audit
plan
as
to
whether
the
chair
should
would
find
it
useful
to
have
sight
of
those
officers
on
the
privileged
user
list.
M
Just
to
let
officers
know
that
we
are
currently
finalizing
the
internal
audit
on
privileged
users
and
those
details
will
be
shared
with
the
chair
once
that
has
been
completed
and
secondly,
regarding
a
previous
query
in
relation
to
the
hmrc
legislation,
ir35,
an
additional
query
was
raised
by
councilor
Dowson.
That
information
has
now
been
received
by
teams
to
be
able
to
respond
to
that
and
that
will
be
related
to
council
downson
as
soon
as
that's
ready.
Thank
you.
K
Yeah,
just
an
amendment
required
at
the
top
of
the
page.
Seven
I
think
it
is
where
I'm
referenced
under
the
counselors
and
I'm,
not
a
counselor
I
need
to
be
referenced
under
the
independent
member
section.
Thank
you.
A
Right,
then,
are
there
any
other
matters
arising
from
those?
No
okay,
we're
going
to
move
on
to
item
eight
and
I'm
gonna
go
to
my
colleague
at
the
site.
B
Good
morning,
everybody
so
so
yeah.
This
is
the
update
report
on
our
internal
audit
activity
between
January
and
March
this
year.
So
members
returning
will
be
familiar
with
the
format
of
these,
but
I
will
give
a
quick
run
through
for
everybody
that
is
a
new
member
just
to
kind
of
update
on
the
sort
of
information
that
is
in
there.
B
The
key
points
and
the
things
to
expect
from
us
moving
forward
so
appendix
a
I
think
is
the
main
area
of
focus
here
in
terms
of
the
work
that
we
have
completed
in
the
period.
So
you'll
see
that
there
is
a
section
there
running
through
changes
to
the
audit
plan
yeah.
The
audit
plan
goes
to
this
committee
for
approval
in
March
ahead.
It
was
embarking
on
that
work
at
the
start
of
the
Year.
B
So
if
we
move
on
to
the
next
section
there
around
the
table
of
reports
that
we've
issued
During
the
period
so
section
four
there,
so
we've
completed
13
reports
during
that
period
this
year,
the
table
shows
the
opinions
that
we've
given
for
throughout
that
and
I
think
if
we
were
to
focus
on
some
of
the
highlights
there,
obviously
the
audit
of
organizational
culture.
That
is
a
a
new
area
for
us.
B
It's
a
new
area
in
many
respects
for
audit
teams
around
the
country
to
be
focusing
on
and
I
think
lots
of
authorities
and
different
areas
have
tried
this
with
varying
degrees
of
success.
So
so
we
have
taken
this
one
on
there.
It's
been
a
really
insightful
audit
if
he
offers,
in
terms
of
the
intelligence
that
we've
gathered
from
that
and
I
think
the
opinion
that
we've
given
there
does
reflect
the
fact
that
there's
lots
of
really
good
initiatives
that
are
in
train
there
from
the
authority
to
boost
that
culture.
B
We've
looked
at
that
from
the
perspective
of
the
council's
values
and
behavior.
So
the
arrangements
in
place
to
embed
and
to
establish
those
values
and
I
think
in
Authority
this
size.
So
you
think
it's
14
000
people
in
the
council.
It's
always
going
to
be
a
challenge
to
achieve
that
consistency
across
that
with
so
many
different
areas
of
operation,
but
clearly
we
are
facing
that
challenge
head
on
as
a
council.
There's
lots
of
lots
of
things
happening
as
we
speak.
B
We've
highlighted
opportunities
for
us
to
I,
guess
more
proactively
use
some
of
that
data
that
we've
got
to
identify
areas
for
potential
intervention
and
opportunities
as
well
to
strengthen
that
values.
Led
decision
making
in
terms
of
everything
that
we
do
so,
if
you
think
about
activities
of
the
authority,
obviously,
on
the
front
line,
there
are
obviously
very
clear
links
into
their
to
working
as
a
team
for
leads
and
the
values
that
you
would
expect
in
the
way
that
customers
are
handled,
but
sometimes
in
the
back
office
functions.
B
It's
not
so
easy
to
see
those
links.
So
again,
we've
highlighted
those
opportunities
there,
for
example
in
contract
procedurals,
where
we
are
procuring
goods
and
services
day
to
day.
We
all
have
an
obligation
there.
As
officers
to
be
open,
honest
and
trusted,
and
to
have
the
arrangements
in
place
to
spend
money
wisely
so
opportunities
to
strengthen
those
links
within
the
policy
framework
and
again
there
are
various
initiatives
ongoing
within
the
authority
to
to
really
get
on
top
of
that.
B
So
it's
an
ongoing
Journey
there
for
the
council
in
terms
of
continually
boosting
that
culture
and
reinforcing
the
the
positive
tone
from
from
the
top
there,
but
there's
an
opportunity
again
for
us
to
continue
our
involvement
in
that
throughout
the
audit
plan.
So
the
audit
plan
coming
up
for
this
year
gives
us
more
chance
to
get
involved,
and
indeed
every
audit
gives
us
that
opportunity
to
look
at
the
culture
of
the
organization
and
the
values
in
those
areas.
B
B
I
will
do
her,
so
it
canceled
sorry
cancel
the
play
now
in
terms
of
the
page
numbers.
I
haven't
got
the
actual
live
on
open,
but
we're
still
on
section
four
of
appendix
a
here.
If
that
helps
so
yeah
our
risk
assessment
process
when
we
are
identifying
the
schools
that
we
look
at
jaws
lead
us
to
to
kind
of
focus
on
the
schools
where
there
are
opportunities
to
bolster
the
control
environment.
B
He
actually
says
that
our
risk
assessment
process
there
that
we
use
to
identify
the
areas
of
focus
is
succeeding
and
helping
us
to
identify
where,
where
there
are
things
to
be
improved
on
that,
so
if
we
continue
through
appendix
a
an
apologies
that
I
don't
have
the
actual
live
page
numbers
here,
but
if
we
go
to
section
seven
next,
so
that
gives
everybody
a
summary
of
the
other
audit
work
that
we
complete.
B
So
while
I
was
running
through
before
was
our
table
of
reports
issued
where
we've
given
specific
assurances
and
reported
formally
on
a
matter.
This
gives
an
indication
of
the
other
activities
that
we're
involved
in
throughout
on
a
more
of
a
kind
of
consultancy
basis.
So
live
has
changed
is
happening
where
we
can
advise
on
that
process
and
provide
our
specific
insights
and
expertise
in
those
areas
as
we
go
so
moving
on
through
appendix
a
table.
9
shows
the
work
in
progress
that
we
have
at
the
moment.
B
So
there
would
be
an
expectation
there
that
members
will
see
results
from
this
activity
coming
through
in
subsequent
audit
reports,
as
we
continue
to
complete
that
work.
So
if
we
move
on
now
to
appendix
B
of
the
internal
audit
update,
so
this
kind
of
deals
with
the
committee's
other
remit,
which
is
to
oversee,
if
you
like
the
performance
of
ourselves
as
an
audit
function,
and
to
give
that
Assurance
there
that
we
have
the
right
Arrangements
in
place
for
our
for
our
own
performance.
B
B
B
Obviously,
our
quality
assurance
and
Improvement
program
is
detailed
at
section
three,
which
shows
the
the
real
spread
of
activities
that
we
are
on
ongoing
with
to
improve
our
own
practices
and
continually
reflect
on
and
improve
the
ways
that
we
audit
and
finally,
in
that
area,
section
four
looks
at
our
productivity
as
a
section
and
I
have
highlighted
there
that
we
are
and
have
been
restructuring
as
a
as
a
team.
Recently
yeah.
So
that's
been
ongoing
throughout
the
team
in
these
last
few
months.
B
Now,
obviously,
I
think
members
will
understand
that
when
any
team
and
services
restructuring
that
can
cause
distractions
and
stresses
and
turbulence
intersection
as
we
change
and
there's
a
period
of
acclimatization
there,
as
well
as
people
adjust
to
new
roles
and
prepare
for
the
future
there.
B
But
I'd
like
to
say
at
this
point,
I'm
really
proud
of
the
way
that
the
whole
team
has
handled
that
it's
like
I
say
it
is
a
challenging
time,
but
what
that
restructure
does
is
provide
us
with
the
opportunity
to
reorganize
our
resource
level
and
our
our
capacity
to
deliver
there
is
maintained.
B
So
I
would
like
to
reassure
members
that
we
do
have
the
resource
there
to
complete
this
year's
plan
effectively
and
move
forward
in
a
stronger
position
there
or
acknowledging
the
fact
that
there
is
an
impact
there
on
the
volume
and
the
output
during
this
period
of
time
and
I.
Think
that's
natural,
but
I
think
we
are
very
well
placed
here
now
for
a
positive
future
as
an
odd
exception
and
finally
appendix
C.
B
This
is
a
standard
item
that
members
have
requested,
which
gives
Assurance
around
the
monitoring
of
urgent
decisions
taken
by
the
authority,
so
it
provides
an
update
each
time
around
that
information.
So
that's
that's
the
end
of
my
presentation
on
this,
which
is
probably
longer
than
I,
would
normally
expect
it
to
be,
but
I
just
wanted
to
guide
through
the
report
and
why
it
is,
as
it
is
so
I'm
happy
to
to
take
questions
at
this
point
and
and
we'll
do
our
best
to
answer
those.
C
Yeah,
thank
you
for
that
page
36.
Where
you've
got
the
the
scarring
when
you've
done
the
kind
of
feedback
from
the
Department.
Obviously
the
average
scoring
is
pretty
high,
which
is
is
good
to
see
there
are.
There
are
some
minimum
quite
lows
on
there
do
we
have
any
particular
feedback
of
as
to
why
some
of
the
Departments
gave
quite
low
scorings,
even
obviously
the
overall
average
is
quite
High
in
terms
of
the
audit
plan.
C
C
Bearing
in
mind
the
Strategic
importance
to
the
structure
of
the
Council
of
its
digital
transformation
plans,
do
we
feel,
there's
enough
time
being
actually
allocated
to
digital
and
ICT,
because
as
we
try
and
move
around
with
invest
to
save
measures,
Etc
Etc,
that
digital
infrastructure
and
compliance
opposed
to
significant
potential
weaknesses
to
the
council
structure?
So
do
we
feel
there's
enough
hours
going
to
that?
C
And
the
final
question
is
in
terms
of
your
proactive
and
reactive
strategy:
what's
the
type,
what's
the
current
allocation
towards
planned
in
work
versus
being
reactive
to
emerging
threats,
thank
you.
B
Approach
to
that
Council
away,
so
I'll
try
and
take
those
in
turn.
So,
first
of
all
on
the
feedback
that
we
get
and
the
outliers
there
in
terms
of
the
minimum
scores
so
I
think
the
the
path
around
working
efficiently.
There
reflects
the
challenge
for
us
and
getting
things
right
in
the
remote
working
environment
here
or
the
hybrid
working
environment
should
we
say
so
that
one
actually
relates
specifically
to
a
request
that
came
through
for
a
remote
audit,
whereas
we
actually
conducted
that
audit
out
on
site.
B
So
we
reflect
on
that
and
it's
hard
sometimes
to
get
that
balance
right
around
being
present
there
or
undertaking
things
in
a
new
way,
and
we
continue
to
work
around
that
and
again
when
it
comes
to
adding
value
and
I
mentioned
before
how
sometimes
I
think
our
risk
assessment
process
with
schools
gears
us
towards
those
areas
where
we're
aware
that
we're
going
to
face
challenges
and
there
can
be
if
you
like
many
tensions,
if
you
like
around
the
reporting
of
that
but
I'm,
confident
from
looking
at
those
that
it's
not
an
issue
around
needing
to
reflect
on
our
own
auditing
approach.
B
As
such,
they
are
outliers.
We
take
that
feedback
on
board
and
we're
continually
looking
to
improve
the
way
that
we
work
in
terms
of
the
three-year
plan.
I
mean
you'll
recall
that
the
the
audit
plan
for
the
current
year
went
to
Committee
in
in
March
this
year.
So
we
are
now
coming
to
the
point
in
terms
of
finishing
our
work
in
progress
from
the
previous
year
plan,
where
we
were
looking
to
begin.
That
and
I
think
there's
an
opportunity
here
for
us
to
look
at
all
aspects
of
that
short
and
long
term.
B
If
you
like
so
first
of
all,
how
do
we
perhaps
give
a
more
focused
plan
to
the
committee
around
a
particular
period
that
we're
doing,
but
with
that
longer
term
view
as
well
around
rolling
programs,
if
you
like,
so
where
we
can
reflect
that
that
kind
of
risk
consideration
in
the
longer
term,
I
think
it
makes
sense
to
have
that
longer
term
picture
as
well,
so
we're
getting
ourselves
prepared
to
start
out
and
we'll
continue
to
work
with
members
and
ashore
around
how
we
go
around
that
digital
transformation
plans.
B
So
obviously,
we've
been
through
quite
a
rigorous
audit
planning
process
over
the
recent
period.
There
is
transformation
that
runs
throughout
that
plan
and
a
significant
amount
of
time
devoted
specifically
to
ICT
there.
So
I
would
like
to
give
members
confidence
that
I
I
do
feel
we
have
an
appropriate
amount
of
time
ready
for
us
to
look
in
the
right
areas
there,
and
it's
going
to
be
a
case
for
us
over
these
coming
months
of
getting
into
that
work
and
and
Reporting
the
outcomes
of
that
transparently.
B
Back
to
members
in
terms
of
time
for
the
plan,
I
am
confident
that
we
have
enough
time
there
and
again
in
terms
of
the
proactive
and
reactive
strategy.
There
is
an
element
of
contingency,
that's
built
into
the
plan,
a
reasonable
proportion
of
contingency
to
enable
us
to
react
as
we
go
and
enable
us
to
to
change
priorities.
B
But
again,
when
you
look
at
the
report
in
that
section,
around
changes
to
the
plan
I
think
it's
going
to
be
something
where
there
will
always
be
those
trade-offs
throughout
the
yeah,
and
sometimes
decisions
do
need
to
be
made
around
where
our
attention
is
focused,
where
there
is
a
consequence
of
that
and
something
may
need
to
come
out
of
the
plan.
So
we
will
keep
transparently
providing
that
information
to
you
around
how
we
react
as
the
year
goes
on.
L
Thanks
Jim,
bizarrely,
my
first
question
was
exactly
the
same
as
councilor
Ray's.
First
question,
so
I
won't
worry
about
that
one.
The
second
item
was
on
the
table
on
page
39,
the
actual
versus
plan
days.
Could
you
explain
two
things?
One
is
you've
got
agreed
audit
plan
days
and
pro-rata
audit
plan
days
which
seem
identical
throughout.
So
what
what
is
the
difference
supposed
to
be
part
of
my
ignorance,
but
the
other
is
that
the
actual
days
spent
on
the
audit
on
the
on
the
majority
is
less
than
the
plan
days.
L
Could
you
explain
why
is
that,
because
you've
been
efficient
or
because
you've
not
been
able
to
fully
complete
what
you're
wanting
to
do
thanks.
B
So
in
terms
of
the
actual
and
pro
rata
that
will
have
been
different
throughout
the
course
of
the
Year
leading
to
this
point
and
it
kind
of
priorities
it
based
on
the
stage
of
the
Year,
we're
at
so
say
in
Quarter
Two,
it
would
have
been
at
the
pro
rafter
element
would
have
been
half
that,
if
you
like,
but
as
we're
towards
the
end
of
the
the
actual
and
the
prior
to
then
start
to
level
up.
So
that's
why,
at
this
particular
stage,
it's
it's
very
similar.
B
There
I
mentioned
that
we've
had
some
resourcing
challenges
throughout
the
year,
so
some
of
the
output
is
perhaps
still
to
be
restored,
as
we
readjust
there
and
again,
there
will
be
trade-offs
there
in
many
of
those
areas
around
those
decisions
as
to
where
do
we
focus
perhaps
more
in
one
area
and
less
in
another.
As
that
risk
profile
changes
throughout
the
year.
B
There
is
always
that
judgment
to
make
for
any
head
of
audit
around
the
spread
and
the
breadth
of
that
Assurance
across
the
plan
and,
as
I
said
in
the
presentation,
I
am
confident
that
that
we
have
the
spread
of
the
work
to
be
able
to
give
that
annual
opinion,
which
will
come
to
committee
next
month,
which
looks
across
all
of
those
Assurance
blocks
and
areas
of
the
plan.
B
So,
whilst
in
some
areas,
yes,
the
volume
is
not
the
same
as
the
prior
to
days
in
terms
of
the
risks
and
the
focus
in
those
areas,
I'm,
confident
that
our
attention
has
been
in
the
right
areas
enough
to
be
able
to
give
that
opinion.
J
I
just
agree
with
what
John
and
says
it's
an
ongoing
process
where
we
look
at,
as
it
says,
the
the
work
that's
in
there
and
and
the
risks
and
whether
we're
focusing
in
the
right
area
and
and
although
the
days
probably
aren't
the
same.
I
would
say
that
the
work
that
we've
done
is
significant
and
will
enable
us
to
give
the
opinion
next
month.
L
Can
I
just
come
back
briefly,
chair,
yeah,
so
you've
given
us
the
assurance
that,
although
there's
a
fewer
number
of
days,
spent
that
the
work
done
within
those
days
is
sufficient
for
a
good
for
a
good
and
complete
order?
Obviously,
at
the
outset,
you'd
plan
for
these
days
and
not
been
able
to
deliver.
Is
that
something
going
forward
that
concerns
you
that
you
should
be
doing
more
or
or
is
it
that
you
actually
don't
need
to
allocate
as
many
days
as
you
have
done
in
the
past?
You
know
which
way
around
is
it?
B
Just
to
further
reassure
you
on
that
one
councilor
Downs,
because
the
plan
kind
of
rolls
a
little
bit
over
the
start
of
the
year.
At
this
point,
we
are
still
very
much
finishing
our
working
progress
for
that
year's
plan.
So
in
actual
fact,
what
you
would
actually
see
there
is
those
numbers
in
terms
of
the
actual
continuing
to
increase
over
this
period,
as
we
finish
off
as
you'll
see
in
that
in
appendix
a
around
that
work
in
progress.
B
Various
areas
of
plumbed
work,
so
the
gaps
that
are
there
now
as
we
work
towards
the
finalization
of
that
will
will
shrink
if
you
like,
but
in
terms
of
our
overall
resource
calculation.
B
Now
obviously,
audit
splits
into
various
parts
here
and
some
of
our
time
will
be
spent,
as
you
can
imagine
on
various
activities
to
kind
of
review
and
reflect
as
a
section
on
on
the
way
that
we
audit
and
our
continuing
professional
development.
All
of
those
sort
of
activities
is
and
things
which
bolster
our
functionality
as
a
section
without
necessarily
delivering
across
the
plan.
Sometimes,
decisions
need
to
be
made
to
put
a
bit
more
time
into
those
sort
of
areas
and
that
doesn't
perhaps
come
through
in
here.
B
Perhaps
that's
something
that
we
need
to
think
about
in
terms
of
the
way
that
we
reassure
yourselves,
but
but
I'd
like
to
just
overall
go
back
to
the
point
there,
that
the
gaps
will
continue
to
shrink
and
in
terms
of
the
work
that
we
are
carrying
out
and
and
the
effectiveness
of
our
planning
process
and
delivery
of
the
course
of
the
year.
I
am
confident
in
that
notwithstanding
the
fact
that
there
are
always
areas
that
that
we
want
to
improve
on.
E
Chair
I
again
have
got
several:
do
you
want
them
all
at
once?.
E
Right
perfect,
so
I'm
really
pleased
that
we're
doing
the
organizational
culture,
audit,
I,
think
that
is
absolutely
fabulous
work
but
I'd
be
interested
to
know.
You
talked
in
your
summary
presentation
about
the
fact:
it's
been
difficult
elsewhere
in
the
country,
so
I'd
really
like
to
know
what
we
took
as
learning
before
we
did
that
audit.
E
Some
of
this
might
be
my
own
naivety
around
being
new
to
the
board,
but
I
was
surprised
that
some
of
the
work
that
you've
done
it
just
said
n
a
it's
just
a
memo.
I,
don't
know
what
that
means.
It
sounds
very
chill
I.
Imagine
it's
not
quite
as
chill
as
it
sounds.
E
What
are
we
doing
about
surveys
that
have
been
sent
out
and
it
looks
like
just
ignored
for
adults
and
health?
They
haven't
they've,
only
one's
been
sent
and
it
just
hasn't
been
picked
up
again.
Going
back
to
that
added
value.
I
know
it
talks
in
the
report
about
the
fact
that
we
can
now
do
some
recommendation.
Checking
but
I
wonder
if
you
could
just
speak
around
our
how
we
make
sure
that
the
impact
of
our
audit
is
actually
effective
and
how
it
does
add
value
to
that
on
the
ground
front.
E
End
of
council
work
I
also
wondered
if
X,
if
there's
any
external
audit
of
audit
I'm,
not
sure
whether
that
is
a
thing
and
chair
am
I.
Okay
to
question
on
the
key
decisions
bit
as
well.
Is
that
still
still
part?
Okay,
great
in
terms
of
the
government
time
scales,
it
seems
that
a
big
part
of
the
reason
some
have
to
be
not
put
out
is
because
the
government
aren't
giving
appropriate
time
scales.
E
I,
wonder
if
that's
a
a
thing
that
happens
quite
a
lot
or
is
that
an
issue
just
because
their
time,
stay
or
scales
are
less
than
our
best
practice
and
then
just
to
come
back
again
to
counselor
Down's
comments.
I!
Think!
For
me,
the
real
concern
is
that
there's
less
days
in
total
that
are
being
used
and
I,
don't
think
I
paid
necessarily
enough
heed
to
the
number
of
days
on
the
sort
of
y-axis
like
I'm.
E
Looking
at
that
I.T
and
it's
a
hundred
days,
we're
short
that's
a
third
of
a
year-
that's
not
to
me
just
a
rollover
situation,
so
I
guess!
My
question
is:
when
do
we
do
the
new
year
and
where
are
the
missing
days
or
are
there
because
it
might
be
that
actually
that's
our
planned
work
and
then,
where
you
talk
about
that
risk
and
we
measure
risk
and
then
we
put
it
elsewhere,
it
then
doesn't
feature
in
that.
So
actually
there
is
another
200
days
somewhere,
it's
just
not
in
the
bar
chart.
B
Okay,
so
I'll
take
those
in
turn,
and
please
do
come
back
to
me
if
there's
anything
missing
in
this,
but
I've
noted
down
what
we
can
go
on
there,
so
organizational
culture
to
start
with,
and
the
learning
and
focus
from
other
authorities
that
have
perhaps
tried
and
been
less
successful,
and
then
what
I
will
say
on
that
one
as
I
say
it's
an
emerging
area
and
many
other
authorities
have
tried
this
and
have
also
succeeded
in
in
their
in
that
area
as
well.
B
But
I
think
one
of
the
big
challenges
for
any
audit
function
here
is
that
this
is
quite
a
big
shift
in
the
way
that
you
audit,
really
so
people
think
about
internal
audit
and
often
think
numbers
and
figures
and
spreadsheets,
whereas
culture
is
much
more
kind
of
subjective,
if
you
like
around
how
people
feel
and
how
things
are
working
and
what
the
arrangements
are
in
place
to
enhance
that
employee
experiences
and
I
think
perhaps
other
authorities
that
have
had
less
positive
experiences
in
from
the
auditing
this
perspective
and
perhaps
found
it's
easy
to
be
quite
nebulous
on
your
object.
B
Active,
if
you
like
of
that
overall
audit
and
to
end
up
going
off
scope
a
little
bit
and
you
end
up,
then
perhaps
feeling
what
are
we
going
to
be
actually
giving
Assurance
on
here?
And
how
do
we
come
to
that
evidence-led
opinion
of
culture?
So
we
had
various
conversations,
obviously
with
other
our
virtues
as
we
started
this
and
also
discussed
this
with
the
director
of
resources
and
of
the
chief
officer,
HR
and
and
the
values
of
the
organization
gave
us
that
auditable
and
focused
routine.
If
you
like.
B
So
the
council
has
those
values
that
are
well
established.
But
what
Arrangements
do
we
actually
have
in
place
for
ensuring
giving
ourselves
that
reassurance
that
people
are
aware
of
them
and
that
people
are
living
there
as
day
to
day?
So
it
gave
us
from
a
learning
experience
before,
starting
that
more
of
an
area
of
auditable
focus,
if
you
like-
and
this
is
the
start
to
think
of
our
culture
Journey
as
an
audit
function,
it's
the
first
of
that
type
of
audit
that
we've
done.
B
But,
as
I
said,
it
does
come
back
into
the
plan
for
for
this
year
and
it
gives
us
that
routine
and
that
Focus
throughout
the
plan
as
we
move.
So
that's
how
we
overcame
that
one
ourselves
and
gave
ourselves
more
of
a
focused
audit
area,
so
not
applicable
memo
issued
in
the
table
of
reports.
This
will
be
where
the
area
of
the
audit
doesn't
necessarily
lend
itself
to
giving
a
a
control
or
a
compliance
opinion
and
we've
given.
B
If
you
like,
more
of
a
snapshot
view
or
in
in
the
case
of
say,
if
it's
a
grant,
we've
given
specific
statutory
assurances
and
sign
off
there
to
give
that
assurance
that
from
our
sample,
the
money
has
been
spent
effectively
in
accordance
with
the
conditions
of
the
Grant
I.
Think
we've
also
got
one
in
that
table
around
money
laundering
arrangements,
for
example
in
a
certain
area.
B
So
again
it's
because
we
we
get
we'll
go
into
that
area.
We
will
review,
for
example,
how
that
section
identifies
their
risks
with
respect
to
money
laundering,
Arrangements
kind
of
do
what
we
can
to
establish
what
their
arrangements
are
to
get
on
top
of
that,
without
necessarily
leading
it
to
give
that
broader
control
or
compliance
opinion,
but
I
think
reflected
on
the
point
you
made
there
well.
B
I
think
we
probably
can
do
is
give
a
little
bit
more
in
the
table
there
to
just
guide
through
the
outcomes
and
the
objectives
of
that
and
I
can
reassure
that.
There
are
no
issues
of
concern
there.
That
came
to
light.
B
We've
reported
on
that
area,
for
example,
and
are
able
to
give
assurance
that
there
are
the
arrangements
in
place
there
to
manage
that
risk,
and
it
kind
of
maintains
that
dialogue
with
the
service
but
I
think
reflected
on
that
more
information
for
members
around
the
Audits
and
reviews
that
don't
lend
themselves
to
an
opinion
would
be
helpful,
so
Point
taking
and
taking
on
board
there,
so
the
customer
satisfaction
surveys
and
where
it
appears
that
that
they
are
ignored.
B
This
has
been
an
area
of
focus
for
the
committee
for
for
quite
a
long
time
and
the
chair
and
the
previous
chairs
ever
written
to
officers
to
to
help
us
and
encouraging
that
response
rate
and
we've
actually
been
really
successful.
B
In
that
we've
come
from
a
position
where
I
think
generally,
the
response
rate
used
to
be
much
lower,
more
like
30
to
40
percent
to
much
higher
there,
and
that
comes
through
awareness
of
the
offices
of
why
it's
important
that
we
continue
to
measure
our
performance
there
and
also
chasing
processes
that
we
have
in
place
and,
as
I
said,
we've
reflected
on
the
questions
asked
as
well,
because
at
the
moment
it's
quite
a
big
survey
covering
a
number
of
areas.
B
We've
tried
to
slim
that
down
to
focus
on
the
specific
value
added
and
make
it
much
easier
to
complete
that
survey,
so
we're
hoping
to
to
further
push
those
areas
so
that
we
are
much
closer,
but
obviously
it's
out
of
our
control
to
a
degree.
We
could
ask
for
it.
We
can
chase,
but
sometimes
it's
we've
not
been
successful
in
getting
that
response
and
that's
what
the
table
the
tables
does
reflect.
Sorry.
B
We
don't
at
the
moment,
but
we
have
started
to
copy
in
the
chief
officer
in
that
area
and
I
suggest
we
kind
of
see
how
how
successful
that
is,
as
we
develop
the
new
process
and
then
I
think
if
we
need
to
then
continue
to
escalate
that
then
options
are
there
for
us
in
terms
of
how
we
would
go
about
that.
So
that
is
a
worthwhile
and
a
worthy
suggestion
there.
So
thank
you
for
that.
B
So
moving
on
through
the
points
that
you've
raised
so
adding
value
from
the
audit
and
the
recommendation
tracking
process
is
how
do
we
ensure
that
the
audit
has
been
effective
in
those
areas,
so
recommendation
tracking
is
obviously
very
key
to
that,
and
it
gives
us
that
looting
if
you
like,
to
monitor
where
the
progress
has
been
further
to
the
audit.
B
So
in
terms
of
our
high
and
medium
priority
recommendations,
we
now
have
data
available
up
to
us
to
keep
a
constant
eye
there
on
on
the
progress
that's
been
made
towards
implementation
there.
So
in
terms
of
being
able
to
give
the
assurance
that
the
change
has
come
from
the
audit,
that
recommendation
tracking
process
is
fundamental
to
that,
as
is
the
audit
plan,
if
you
like
so
within
that
there
will
be
opportunities
for
us
to
follow
up
certain
areas.
So
particularly
where
we've
given
a
limited
opinion
in
either
part
of
all
of
that
audit.
B
We
do
commit
to
doing
a
follow-up
audit
of
that.
So
we
don't
just
rest
on
the
recommendation
tracking.
We
actually
go
back
in
at
a
point
in
time
in
the
future
and
reorder
to
the
areas
where
there
are
opportunities
for
improvement,
to
give
that
Assurance
on
the
outcome
and
the
value
added
from
that,
and
then
going
back
to
the
surveys
that
we
do
from
the
other
angle
of
it.
They
continue
to
give
us
that
opportunity
there
to
ask
the
Departments
themselves
for
their
thoughts
and
feelings
on
the
audit
process.
B
So
we
measure
it
from
their
angle
as
well
as
from
the
organizational
angle
on
the
implementation
of
the
recommendations.
So
I
think
we
have
several
mechanisms
now
that
strengthen
our
our
robustness
there
in
being
able
to
measure
that
value.
Moving
on
to
external
audit
of
internal
audit,
it's
a
good
question.
The
answer
is
yes,
actually
they're
in
so
far
as
we
have
within
the
public
sector,
internal
audit
standards
a
requirement
not
only
to
self-assess
our
own
performance
but
periodically
to
invite
in
an
external
assessment.
B
So
from
a
quality
assurance
perspective,
we
have
an
annual
review
there
of
how
our
quality
procedures
are
working,
which
we
report
back
to
members
of
the
committee
when
that's
taken
place
and
then
on
a
rolling
program
with
the
other
core
cities.
B
There
are
then,
external
assessments
that
take
place
so
I
think
it
was
Glasgow
that
were
the
last
ones
to
to
come
and
review
ourselves,
and
that
was
reported
to
committee
towards
the
end
of
last
year
with
a
very
positive
report
there
around
our
Arrangements,
which
gives
that
opportunity
there
for
an
independent
look
at
our
arrangements
and
a
comparison
with
other
audit
functions
that
are
all
facing
the
same
challenges
as
ourselves.
So
it's
a
really
positive
one
and
we
will
we
will
go
and
audit
another
Authority
there
as
well
within
that.
B
So
yes,
there
is
that
ongoing
review
the
key
decisions,
one
I,
probably
feel
the
need
to
take
that
one
away
yeah,
if
that's
all
right
and
just
look
into
that,
one
in
which
case
I
can
come
back
to
yourself
and
members
with
with
an
answer
on
that
one
and
then
on
the
ICT
plan,
specifically
I'm,
going
to
pass
that
over
to
Angela
who
looks
after
that
portfolio
area.
Who
may
be
able
to
give
a
more
detailed
answer
them
herself.
There.
J
In
terms
of
the
ICT,
there
are
a
number
of
large
audits
that
we
didn't
start
until
probably
February
or
March,
so
we
are
actually
in
the
process
of
finalizing
them,
which
and
they're
in
the
table
there.
So
there
is
a
significant
amount
of
work
being
done
post-match,
which
would,
as
Jonathan
says,
increase
that
lying
more
in
line
with
what
the
actual
plan
days
were.
J
The
other
thing
that's
probably
worth
noting
is
that
that
plan
days
is
set
at
the
beginning
of
the
year,
based
on
a
number
of
assumptions
around
things
like
vacant
posts
and
when
they'll
get
recruited
to
and
I
think
that's
something
we
probably
can
take
away
and
look
at,
because
some
of
those
assumptions
haven't
happened
and
we
probably
should
have
adjusted
the
days.
But
those
days
reflect
the
the
number
of
days
that
were
agreed
by
committee
at
the
beginning
of
the
year.
J
A
K
Thank
you,
chair,
I,
always
wait
until
the
end,
because
often
my
questions
are
answered
asked
by
the
by
the
members.
So
I'll
just
have
one
one
question
remaining:
if
I
may,
on
page
37
appendix
B,
there's
a
reference
to
Assurance
mapping
and
the
officers
will
know
that
this
is
a
subject
close
to
my
heart.
When
I
look
back
on
on
my
scribbles
from
previous
meetings,
this
has
been
a
subject
of
ongoing
work
for
some
time,
so
I'm
just
curious
to
know.
When
will
this
committee
see
some
output
from
that?
K
K
So
we
can
just
have
a
view
as
to
what
what
it
is
you're
looking
for
and
looking
at
from
an
assurance
mapping
perspective
and
that's
my
question
and
then
I
just
wanted
to
say
another
reiterate
the
thank
you
around
the
audit
of
culture
and
recognize
that
that
is
a
difficult
Beast,
not
difficult
not
to
crack
I'm,
a
head
of
internal
audit
for
a
private
sector
company,
and
we
have
struggled
in
the
private
sector
to
get
a
good
audit
of
culture.
K
So
well
done
from
me
for
that
and
I
do
have
a
sub
question
on
the
back
of
that
linked
to
what
you
were
saying,
Jonathan
around
I.
Don't
think
you
used
the
term
subcultures,
but
there
will
be
in
a
company
in
an
excuse
me
in
an
organization
as
big
as
Leeds
city
council.
There
are
bound
to
be
subcultures
in
existence
and
how
do
you
plan,
if
you
have
a
plan
to
Target
any
of
those
particular
subcultures
in
the
work
that
you're
doing?
That's
it
from
me?
Thank
you.
B
Well,
thank
you
very
much
and
I
think
it's
fair
point.
Yes,
on
the
Assurance
mapping
in
terms
of
this
being
very
much
an
ongoing
issue
for
us,
and
there
are
incremental
improvements
that
we
make
as
we
go
on.
So
we
start
from
a
base
with
what
Assurance
maps
have
we
got
as
a
section
and
I
think
that
it's
fair
to
say
that
they
are
more
developed
in
some
areas
than
others
and
probably
easier
to
do
if
you
like
in
some
areas
than
other
areas.
B
This
is
a
challenge
not
just
for
us,
but
for
other
audit
functions
as
you'll
be
aware
there,
and
there
are
various
activities
that
are
being
looked
at
across
the
likes
of
the
the
core
cities
group,
south
and
west
of
Yorkshire
audit
group,
where
we
talk
to
other
authorities
around
how
to
effectively
carry
out
that
Assurance
mapping
process
so
that
the
effort
that
you
put
into
that
is
worthwhile
in
terms
of
the
output
that
you
get
from
that
to
feed
into
the
audit
plan.
Not
easy
and
something
that's
ongoing
and
I.
B
B
B
As
we
continue
on
that
one,
but
I
can
see
why
it
would
appear
that
it's
a
it's
kind
of
an
ongoing
item,
because
it
is
really
for
us
in
terms
of
we're
not
there
yet
in
terms
of
where
we'd
like
to
be
with
having
that
Assurance
mapping
process
defined
across
all
areas.
But
we
are
continuing
to
grow.
What
we
have
and
I
think
we'll
bring
something
back
to
say
where
we
are
and
where
we're
going
at
a
future
meeting,
and
thank
you
again
around
the
culture.
B
So
it
certainly
is
a
difficult
one
for
local
authorities
there,
in
terms
of
the
subcultures
I,
think
it's
important
to
recognize,
as
you
say,
and
and
actively
accept
the
fact
that,
yes,
they
will
exist
and
that's
not
a
weakness.
I,
don't
think
in
an
authority
this
size
and
in
terms
of
the
plan
to
Target
those.
B
It's
a
case
I
think
through
our
regular
meetings
that
we
have
with
officers
across
the
authority
in
working
out
where
we
can
draw
assurances
on
activities
that
are
already
in
place
across
the
authority
to
say
get
on
top
of
any
issues
that
come
out
of
those
subcultures,
but
also
within
the
audit
plan.
There
is
specifically
actually
an
area
there
for
targeted
culture,
work
and
I.
Think
we've
looked
broadly
across
the
authority
with
the
piece
of
culture
work
to
date
in
the
future.
B
We
expect
to
do
much
more
focused
pieces
of
work
in
those
particular
areas
where
there
might
be
Challengers
and
again.
There
is
then,
that
decision
to
make
there
as
to
is
this
an
area
where
we
do
an
audit
review
in
that
area,
or
is
it
something
where
we
draw
the
assurances
through
activities
that
are
ongoing
and
get
those
through
the
through
our
input
and
discussions
with
officers
in
the
authority
so
very
much
an
area
we
are
focused
on
and
will
be
focused
on
in
the
coming
year?.
A
F
Thank
you,
chair,
yeah,
really
pleased
to
see
that
the
huge
emphasis
is
paid
looking
at
PACE
39
on
the
graph
in
terms
of
anti-fraud
encryption.
So
almost
a
full
year
has
been
spent
in
terms
of
working
days
and
and
so
on,
but
looking
at
it
kind
of
spills
into
the
next
item
as
well,
but
looking
at
the
actual
figures,
22
23,
there
was
around
61
cases
all
together
and
the
vast
majority
of
cases
it
comes
as
not
proven,
not
proven.
F
You
know,
on
the
actual
directory
to
direct
trade
basis,
so
I'd
be
really
interested
to
find
out
in
terms
of
the
actual
figures
in
terms
of
recovery
and
also
in
terms
of
the
actual
closed
cases
if
there
was
any
convictions
and
so
on
as
well.
Please
thank
you.
B
I
think
that's
something
that
would
probably
come
to
in
the
next
agenda
item.
If
that's
all
right,
yeah.
O
Thank
you,
foreign,
just
a
really
quick
one
on
page
44
I
also
hate
seeing
red
on
plans,
but
you've
got
one
the
help
to
heat
scheme
and
it
follows
it
from
what
councilor
Biffle
was
saying
about
the
length
of
time.
Often
the
council
are
given
to
sign
contracts
and
and
do
work,
I
wonder
if
you
could
just
highlight
why
why
it
says
Su
and
as
in
red.
B
You
might
have
got
me
there,
so
I
might
have
to
just
go
and
have
a
look
at
that
one.
If
that's
all
I
can
come
back
to
you.
Oh
Angela
has
her
hand
up
there,
so
maybe
I'll
be
able
to
answer
that.
One.
J
Say
so
it's
position,
that's
been
taken
under
special
urgency
rather
than
GE,
which
I
think
is
General
exemption
for
the
top
of
my
head
and
it'll
be
read
because
it
was
it.
It
was
an
urgent,
urgent
decision.
O
Just
just
by
way
of
follow-up
and
I
have
said
this
before
when
you
put
in
abbreviations
in,
can
you
just
make
sure
that
you
put
some
kind
of
explanation,
because
you
know
we're
reading
them?
We
do
these
meetings
regularly,
but
for
the
general
public
or
the
Department's
reading
them
it
does
need
to
be
a
bit
clearer.
Thank
you.
It.
A
D
A
Okay,
thank
you
very
much.
So
just
right
does
the
committee
agree
to
the
recommendations
that's
been
set
out
in
the
appendices,
a
b
and
c
so
for
a
it
was
to
receive
the
internal
audit
update
covering
the
periods
from
January
to
March
2023
and
the
work
undertaken
during
that
period
of
the
report?
A
Yep:
okay,
for
appendices
B
to
know
that
there's
no
limitations
in
scope
and
nothing
has
arisen
to
compromise
the
independence
of
the
internal
audit
during
the
reporting
period,
yeah
and
finally,
for
the
pencils,
see
the
report
and
see
to
receive
the
report.
The
report
providing
information
relating
to
the
monitoring
of
urgent
decisions
covering
again
the
same
period
January
to
March
2023
silencers,
yes,
okay,
so
moving
on
to
item
agenda
number
nine,
the
counter
fraud
update
Report
with
Louise.
Thank
you.
I
Thank
you
chair,
so
this
is
a
twice
yearly
counter
fraud
update
report,
which
covers
a
period
October
to
March.
The
report
includes
a
work
of
internal
audit
and
other
service
areas
who
contribute
to
the
counter
fraud.
Assurances
within
the
council
page
50
highlights
the
methods
staff
are
members
of
the
public
can
contact
the
council
to
raise
their
concerns
about
wrongdoing.
I
Pages
54-57
highlight
the
work
that
the
tenancy
fraud
officers
have
undertaken
in
the
period.
This
includes
information
on
the
new
investigations
that
were
opened
and
in
which
area
of
the
city
how
the
referrals
were
received
and
what
these
related
to
12
Council
properties
were
recovered
in
the
period,
which
means
that
the
properties
are
then
available
to
be
re-let
to
those
in
need.
I
The
welfare
and
benefits
service
have
undertaken
a
proactive
data
matching
exercise
reviewing
the
council
tax
support
payments
and
potential
Undeclared
earnings.
This
has
identified
your
shot
of
two
million
pounds
which
has
been
added
back
to
council
tax
bills.
The
data
matching
that
has
identified
these
other
payments
is
now
included
in
business
as
usual
processes
to
ensure
that
any
relevant
changes
are
identified
at
the
earliest
opportunity.
I
In
terms
of
awareness
raising,
we
promoted
the
fraud,
awareness,
training
in
the
county
for
all
policies
and
key
risks
in
February,
and
a
further
communication
was
targeted
to
key
staff,
reminding
them
of
the
risk
of
Bank
mandate,
fraud
and
the
correct
procedures
to
follow
tailored
fraud.
Awareness
package
for
schools-based
staff
has
been
developed
and
launched.
This
is
available
on
the
leads
for
learning
system
for
staff
to
readily
access.
I
I
F
Thank
you,
I'll,
just
repeat
that
question
again,
which
I
asked
in
the
previous
section
in
terms
of
actual
recovery
and
so
recovery
in
terms
of
directory
to
direct
trade
basis,
if
that's
possible,
please
and
also
convictions,
but
also
in
terms
of
the
covid-19
business
grants
a
couple
of
years
back.
It
was
highlighted
as
there's
around
a
million
pound
worth
of
of
of
of
cases
that
were
that
were
being
investigated.
F
So
how
much
have
we
actually
recovered
so
far,
I
can
see
there's
around
29
cases
to
the
value
of
just
under
300
000.,
so
in
terms
of
the
actual
recovery.
So
far
do
we
have
any
stats
on
that.
Please.
Thank
you.
E
Bethel,
thank
you.
Do
we
or
could
we
have
a
short
outline
of
what
our
safeguards
are
around
the
new
sort
of
digitalization
stuff?
It
mentions
that
there
is
it's
constantly
evolving,
but
we
know
that
digitalization
and
new
digitalization
processes
are
coming
in
quite
thick
and
fast
I'm,
thinking
of
like
the
council
tax
stuff.
Now
where
customers
can
do
quite
a
lot
online.
So
what
are
our
new
safeguards
around?
E
That
I
was
concerned,
I,
guess
or
maybe
a
bit
confused
as
to
why
non-occupation
of
housing
isn't
seen
as
a
top
priority,
given
the
sort
of
housing
crisis
that
we've
got
in
terms
of
a
lack
of
Housing
and
then
with
full
disclosure
that
I
am
a
coastal
counselor
I
just
wondered
if
we
had
any
reasoning
as
to
why
or
any
understanding
of
why
there
seems
to
be
more
fraud
reported
in
burmintoff's
and
kirkstall.
I
In
terms
of
the
tenants
fraud
I
would
have
to
go
back
to
the
tenants
fraud
officers
to
get
an
answer
to
that
question
in
terms
of
the
digitalization
I'm,
not
sure.
If
Angela,
would
you
be
able
to
answer
in
terms
of
our
attendance
on
transformation
boards
just
to
make
sure
that
we
are
on
top
of
the
controls
and
where
risks
are
changing.
J
So
there
are
a
number
of
key
projects
that
are
going
on
across
Council
in
terms
of
transformation,
and
part
of
that
is
digitization
and
we're
involved
in
those
and
we'll
be
looking
at
the
process
redesign
to
ensure
that
there
are
appropriate
controls
in
there
from
a
from
an
audit
perspective,
but
also
from
the
fraud
perspective.
J
C
Just
coming
back
on
on
kind
of
digital
or
gender
and
the
vulnerabilities
as
far
as
I'm
aware,
because
this
is
going
to
be
my
new
kind
of
one
of
my
new
lead
roles
for
the
year,
we
have
124
websites
that
the
council
operates
with
a
variety
of
access
points
for
the
general
public.
Using
a
variety
of
systems
that
have
just
been
basically
built
ad
hoc
as
needed
are
bought
off
Shelf.
C
What,
when
we're
looking
at
the
the
kind
of
fraud
portfolio
is
there?
Is
there
an
opinion
from
internal
order
over
the
ship,
a
variety
of
websites
we
have
in
the
vulnerability
that
creates
and
what
conversations
are
therefore
happening
with
IDs
and
digital
transformation
around
this
to
make
sure
that
actually
we
get
less
access
points
into
the
system
which
posed
therefore
greater
risk
to
the
system.
J
At
the
moment,
that
is
not
something
we
look
at
in
terms
of
the
number
of
access
points,
but
I
think
that's
something
we
probably
need
to
go
away
and
have
a
conversation
with
IDs
about
and
I
would
assume
that
the
our
information
governance
colleagues
have
similar
queries
around
that.
A
Linda,
would
you
like
to
come
in
on
anything?
No
okay.
Thank
you
very
much
so.
Does
the
committee
agree
to
the
recommendation
set
out
in
the
report
to
receive
the
counter
fraud
update
report
covering
the
period
of
October
to
October,
to
March,
2023,
yeah,
okay
and
the
work
undertaken
by
the
internal
audit
and
other
service
areas
During
the
period
covered
by
the
report?
A
Okay,
thank
you.
So,
moving
on
to
agenda
item
10
civica
housing
Helen,
thank
you.
G
Thank
you
Jeff.
So
this
is
a
paper
that
provides
an
update
in
relation
to
the
housing
ICT
system
provided
by
our
supplier,
civica
and
specifically
how
it
integrates
with
other
systems.
So
it
provides
an
update
on
the
agreed,
workarounds
and
temporary
Arrangements
that
we've
implemented
and
the
work
that's
ongoing
to
continually
improve
the
systems
and
the
integration,
and
this
is
in
response
to
an
issue
raised
back
in
November
meeting
of
this
committee.
G
So
members
are
recommended
to
know
the
contents
and
agree
that,
following
the
successful
upgrade
of
the
system,
so
the
housing
ICC
system
is
due
to
be
upgraded
in
Autumn
2023
and
the
conclusion
of
some
integration
work
streams
that
a
further
report
will
come
to
the
committee
if
the
issues
aren't
resolved
in
in
those
things
and
know
that
there
is
some
internal
audit
work
ongoing,
which
colleagues
have
alluded
to
earlier,
and
the
outcomes
of
that
will
also
be
reported
in
the
relevant
internal
report.
G
So
under
paragraph
two,
which
is
on
page
66
of
your
pack,
bullets
a
to
D,
do
detail
the
specific
queries
that
were
raised
at
that
meeting
and
that's
what
this
paper
is
responding
to
so
section.
Five
and
six
explains
how
it's
How
The
Proposal,
impacts
the
three
pillars,
so
the
health
and
well-being
about
effective
services
to
our
tenants
as
Council
tenants
and
providing
the
subcontractors
and
our
internal
service
providers
to
receive
their
payments
and
the
zero
carbon
is.
G
If
we
can
have
a
more
accessible
web-based
system,
there
is
a
reduction
in
cabinet.
It
also
supports
us
being
efficient
Enterprise
in
as
we've
talked
about
the
committee
earlier
about
the
Ambitions
related
to
our
digital
further
digitalization.
G
So
there
is
lots
of
ongoing
work
internally
with
some
key
internal
stakeholders,
which
are
which
are
detailed
in
sections.
Seven
and
eight
is
governed
by
a
board
which
is
now
chaired
by
the
director
of
communities,
housing
and
environment
and
attended
consistently
throughout.
It
was
previously
chaired
by
director
of
resources,
but
housing
moved
direct
to
us
in
2021,
so
it's
chaired
by
the
director
there.
It's
consistently
throughout
the
time
being
attended
by
internal
colleagues
from
Housing,
Finance
IDs,
or
it
people
contact
center
and
the
supplier
civica.
G
There
is
also
an
ongoing
internal
audit
of
the
civica
CX
housing
management
system.
The
resource
implications
are
that
when
we
went
live
in
November
2021,
we
did
this.
We
went
live
with
the
new
system
in
November
2021,
and
we
did
this
primarily
because
the
previous
system,
Orchard,
which
was
used
for
housing
management,
was
outdated,
no
longer
compliant
with
security
standards.
G
It
was
a
balance
of
risk
in
that
we
were
aware
that
some
of
the
outputs
were
not.
We
had
to
do
some
manual
work
around,
so
it
was
on.
Balance
of
using
an
outdated
system,
went
live
with
a
new
one,
with
a
commitment
to
continually
improving
through
the
ways
that
I've
talked
about,
but
also
that
we
would
have
to
do
some
manual
workarounds,
and
that
does
mean
that
we've
got
some
inefficiencies
in
terms
of
human
resource
time
for
stuffing
time
having
to
implement
those
manual
workarounds.
G
So
there
is
ongoing
data
quality
issues
which
are
being
there's
lots
of
data
quality,
cleansing
exercises
being
undertaken
within
housing
and
within
our
I.T
IDs
colleagues,
and
and
this
continued
training
and
guidance
to
stop
further
discrepancies.
A
lot
of
it
was
about
old
data
that
was
migrated
from
the
previous.
So
it's
not
a
new
issue,
but
it
is
still
an
issue
that
sort
of
having
to
cleanse
it.
G
We
are
also
making.
We
have
to
make
sure,
obviously,
that
contractors
are
paid
on
time.
It
should
happen
automatically,
but
currently
it
doesn't,
and
so,
while
we
don't
have
full
integration,
people
are
having
to
make
some
manual
payments
to
mitigate
that
risk.
Obviously,
so
the
table
on
page
67
of
your
pack
from
paragraph
16
onwards,
outlines
the
issues
related
to
the
transferring
information
making
payments
connecting
to
contractors
and
our
own
subsystems.
G
It
it
details
the
issue
and
then
the
agreed
workarounds
and
the
temporary
Arrangements
that
have
been
implemented,
so
it
lists
their
leads,
Building
Services,
which
is
our
internal
service
provider,
plus
some
of
the
key.
Well,
the
key
housing
subcontractors
that
we
work
with
to
deliver
sort
of
repairs,
maintenance
and
it
also
talks
about
the
internally.
G
We
should
have
an
automatic
functionality
to
produce
that
compliance,
self-billing
invoices
and
that's
a
manual
work
around
at
the
minute
table.
17
then
goes
on
to
explain
what
has
been
resolved
and
what
is
still
outstanding.
G
I
just
want
to
point
out
that
I'm
sorry
there
is
a
typo
in
in
it
refers
a
couple
of
times
to
a
spring
upgrade
of
the
civica
ICT
systems.
It
should
be
Autumn
throughout
it's.
It
does
say
autumn,
but
in
a
couple
a
couple
of
places
it
says
spring,
so
apologies
for
that,
so
it
it
explains
for
each
of
those
issues
highlighted
in
the
previous
table.
What
has
been
resolved
and
what
is
still
outstanding.
G
So
you
can
see
that
there
are
still
improvements
to
be
made,
so
we
are
currently
Midway
through
testing
the
upgraded
system
which
is
needed
in
the
civica
ICT
systems
that
should
go
live
in
Autumn
2023
and
the
upgrade
is
a
joint
responsibility
between
supplier
and
the
council
and
it's
being
monitored
through
the
budget
board
that
I
explained
about
earlier.
G
G
So
that
is
ongoing
and
many
of
the
existing
issues
will
be
improved
by
the
much
needed
upgrade,
which
is
due
for
Autumn
this
year.
Once
we've
done
further
testing
and
then
the
third
key
thing
that
should
provide
assurance
that
these
issues
will
be
resolved
is
the
ongoing
internal
audit,
which
is
happening
now
to
review
the
workarounds
implemented
and
check
any
known
issues
and
making
sure
that
the
actions
being
taken
are
strong
enough.
A
O
Just
quickly
and
and
firstly,
my
admiration
for
anybody
who
deals
with
computers
and
Technical
Systems,
we've
just
been
hearing
how
AI
is
going
to
replace
human
beings
eventually,
but
not
at
Leeds
city
council,
because
the
number
of
manual
workarounds,
the
staff
have
had
to
do
to
actually
compensate
for
computer
systems
shows
the
value
of
human
beings.
O
If,
if
nothing
else
but
I
mean
I,
have
got
an
issue
on
behalf
of
the
tenants
in
particular
and
the
number
of
voids
that
that
potentially
the
delays
that
have
resulted
in
not
being
able
to
cancel
orders
or
rearrange
things
here.
O
So
not
so
much
a
question,
but
a
plea
really
that
we
do
get
this
resolved.
I
know
Council
array
in
particular.
This
is
going
to
be
something
he's
going
to
be
looking
into
and
he
probably
has
a
lot
more
questions
than
I
have,
but
you
know
well
done
and
keep
up
the
good
work.
A
E
Thanks
Council
Ray
I'll
take
a
bit
of
time.
While
you
think
of
the
questions.
E
E
I?
Also
wonder
if
we're
confident
that
issues
so
when
something
goes
wrong,
this
this
all
sounds
like
it's.
If
it's,
if
the
process
is
working,
it
will
work,
but
do
we
have
a
way
within
the
system
to
when
something
goes
wrong
they,
for
whatever
reason
a
contractor,
doesn't
manage
to
make
the
property,
but
the
system
says
it's
been
done.
Do
we
have
a
way
to
raise
there's
a
sort
of
an
illegitimacy
in
the
process?
E
If
that
makes
sense,
and
also
do
we
have
any
understanding
of
the
risk
level
of
other
organizations
that
we
work
with
changing
or
upgrading
their
systems
or
in
their
contracts,
does
it
say
they
have
to
if
they
change
upgrade,
to
link
two
hours?
If
that
makes
sense,
thank
you.
G
Thank
you,
I'll
address
each
one
in
turn,
if
I've
missed
something,
please
let
me
know
so.
My
colleague
from
IDs
isn't
here
yet
so
I'll
have
to
take
away
the
question
about
the
time
frame
for
the
integration
work
streams
because
that
is
being
managed
so
I'll
take
that
away
and
I'll
be
able
to
come
back
with
that.
I
haven't
got
it
with
me
at
the
minute,
I'm.
Sorry
about
that.
G
In
terms
of
when
things
go
wrong
in
the
system,
we
do
have
processes
so,
and
there
are
a
number
of
dedicated
work
streams
that
are
continually
improving,
so
there's
weekly
meetings,
there's
also
close
working
with
our
internal
supplier
to
make
sure
that
that's
often
how
we
realize,
if
there's
an
issue
with
anything
from
the
civica
side
of
things,
because
it's
part
of
the
council
or
talk
to
each
other,
we'll
realize,
there's
something
there.
Well,
then
we
also
have
regular
supplier
relationship
meetings,
so
there's
constant
dialogue,
so
it
will.
G
It
will
happen
through
the
day-to-day
if
somebody
noticing
and
IDs,
if
they
were
here,
would
be
able
to
explain
this
much
better
than
me,
but
they
do
have
some
kind
of
capsules
that
will
realize
if
something
hasn't
happened,
that
expected
to
overnight
I
can
provide
more
information
from
it.
I
can
ask
it
colleges
to
get
back
if
you
need
anything
further
on
that,
because
that's
my
kind
of
housing
part
so,
and
we
have
plenty
of
processes
of
raising
the
issues,
there's
regular
ones
internally,
with
the
technical
people
within
IDs.
G
Sometimes
it's
things
that
are
with
the
council
system.
So
we
in
our
control-
and
we
realize,
there's
a
problem
at
our
end
and
then
we
have
weekly
meetings
with
the
supplier,
with
civica,
plus
the
more
formal,
less
frequent
board
which
civil
can
attend
as
well.
So
there
are,
you
know,
escalation
processes
and
then,
in
terms
of
other
kind
of
the
housing
subcontractors,
you
meant
if
they
were
to
get
a
new
it
system
yeah.
G
As
part
of
when
we
write
the
contracts
and
we
procure
those
contracts
that
they
are
responsible
for
integrating
with
our
systems.
So
there
is
a
contractual
responsibility
there.
It
still
sometimes
requires
plenty
of
conversations
and
shadowing,
and
that,
but
it
is,
it
is
part
of
the
contracts
to
integrate
with
us.
So
we
just
try
and
make
sure
that
we
as
as
transparent
as
we
possibly
can
be
about
any
programmed
upgrades
or
changes
within
hours,
and
they
do
the
same.
But
it's
pretty
standard
in
the
industry
so
see.
A
Okay,
thank
you
very
much.
Councilor
Ray.
C
I'm
going
to
leave
all
the
very
specific
I.T
questions
until
I
start
sitting
down
with
it,
I
suppose
my
question
from
a
corporate
governance
knowledge
decisions.
How
did
we
get
into
this
position?
In
the
first
place?
We
know
we
have
multiple
different
organizations.
We
work
with.
We
know
they've
all
got
different
I.T
systems.
We
know,
there's
always
issues
with
tech.
C
So
it's
great
that
we've
got
to
work
around
about
how
on
Earth
did
we
not
get
in
beforehand
to
make
sure
the
things
that
we're
fixing
now
didn't
go
wrong
in
the
first
place,
because,
ultimately,
from
an
assurance
point
of
view,
this
has
probably
cost
residents
time
money
us
time.
Us
money
damaged
the
reputation
of
the
council,
and
it
goes
back
actually
to
something
we
were
talking
about
earlier
about
subcultures
in
the
council.
There
should
not
be
subcultures
in
the
council.
C
We
should
all
be
seen
from
the
same
hymn
sheet
following
the
same
corporate
governance
and
auditing
processes,
so
that
people
don't
go
off
and
do
things
on
their
own
and
we
get
into
States
like
this.
No
I.T
system
will
ever
be
perfect,
but
we
should
not
have
such
a
huge
level
of
issues
for
such
an
important
system,
which
impacts
on
tens
of
thousands
of
residents
in
this
city.
So
what
steps
have
been
put
in
place
from
audit
and
corporate
governance
to
ensure
that
when
any
new
it
system
comes
in.
G
Yeah,
you
can
I'll
just
I'll,
just
say
that
there
was
I'll.
Take
it
on
board.
There
have
been
Lessons
Learned
undertaken
as
well.
I
understand
in
terms
of
the
procurement
and
the
mobilization,
and
the
board
is
is
reviewing
that
as
well,
and
the
impact
to
our
tenants
is
obviously
at
the
heart
of
everything
that
we're
doing
so.
I
I
assure
your
thoughts,
and
but
we
did
get
into
the
position.
D
I
was
just
going
to
say:
I
won't
comment
on
silica
CX,
but
going
forward.
We
did
do
a
lot
of
lessons
learned
on
that
project
and
obviously,
we've
got
the
Core
Business
transformation,
which
is
another
big
project
coming
in
and
Angela
from
internal
audits
on
that
on
different
groups
and
to
make
sure
that
internal
order
are
in
at
the
beginning
and
so
that
we
get
that
assurance
and
take
on
board
those
Lessons
Learned
From
Civic
CX.
C
Which
is
really
assuring
to
you
I'm
going
to
come
back
to
the
risk,
a
bit
about
and
actually
the
balance
of
risk.
So
we
went
from
a
system
that
had
some
issues
to
A
system
that
create
a
whole
new
series
of
issues
and
how
are
we
reprofiling
risk,
bearing
in
mind
the
substantial
digital
transformation,
bearing
in
mind
the
multitude
of
different
web
applications
we
have
in
the
council
so
that
actually
have
we
reprofiled
risk
when
we're
making
those
decisions.
I.
C
D
Once
I
start-
and
you
can,
what
I
would
say
is
that
we
did
go
through
obviously
specification
of
what
were
required
and
right
at
the
outset,
and
and
there
were
shortfalls.
This
was
the
new
system
and
it
wasn't
proven
in
the
market
and
we
were
working
with
civica
CX
to
to
develop
it
further.
But
there
are
still
issues
with
the
system
and
that's
what
we're
trying
to
to
resolve
at
the
moment.
What
I
would
say
is
that
we're
clearer
now
on
that
we
have
proof
of
concept.
D
So,
even
if
it's
a
young
system,
we
do
look
at
having
that
proof
of
concept
to
make
sure
that
it
does
what
it
says
it
does.
So
we
are
looking
at
that
and
refining
and
learning
all
the
time
and
I
would
say
that
with
any
big
system,
implementation,
there's
always
going
to
be
issues
and
I
think
it
being
naive
to
say
that
there
wouldn't
be,
but
the
will
and
there
will
be
on
Core
Business
transformation.
D
J
Yeah
I
just
wanted
to
add
that,
as
a
service,
internal
order
are
building
closer
relations
with
IDs
to
ensure
that
we
actually
are
aware
of
the
major
projects
and
we
can
become
involved
at
the
outset,
so
that
things
like
this
potentially
don't
happen
again
and
we're
also
looking
at
our
arrangements
for
writing
specifications
for
contracts
as
well.
C
It's
a
really
fun
quick
and
it's
really
reassuring
to
hear
that
I
suppose
we're
an
organization
that
sometimes
relies
on
people's
memory.
How
what
steps
we
put
in
place
to
institutionalize
those
new
checks
and
balances
so
that
as
people
naturally
move
on
to
different
roles
than
that
as
we
found
in
other
departments
when
we
had
all
the
early
retirements
for
ETC
and
a
lot
of
institutional
knowledge
and
experience
left,
how
are
we
ensuring
that
those
Lessons
Learned
are
institutionalized,
rather
than
just
being
with
the
people
that
have
gone
through
the
experience?
C
G
Well,
I
don't
mind
that
we
are
working
and
it
probably
is
more
from
housing's
point
of
view,
we're
kind
of
more
linking
in
with
the
Corporate
Center
on
it
rather
than
this.
But
there's
plenty
there's
much
more
work
being
done
now.
I
feel
in
terms
of
standardization,
of
contract
management
practices
in
terms
of
writing
specifications
in
terms
of
the
processes
of
making
sure
that
you've
linked
in
with
the
right
people
for
those
lessons
before
basically
record
keeping,
has
got
better
I
feel.
J
And
we're
also
working
with
the
portfolio
management
team
and
IDs
they're,
looking
at
standardizing
documentation
around
projects
and
project
boards
and
roles
on
those
as
well,
which
should
help
with
this.
K
Thanks
Angela
That's,
leading
into
my
question
around
project
and
program
management.
You
mentioned
a
program
management
office.
Did
you
mention
a
program
at
BML?
Just
then
yeah?
So
you
talk
a
lot
about
specification
and
getting
the
specification
right,
which
is
great,
and
that's
really
really
important,
I
think
what
I'm
hearing
and
I'm
coming
in
cold
to
this
to
some
extent.
But
what
I'm
hearing
is
the
sort
of
go
live
decision?
What
you
know
was
was
full
risk
considered.
K
K
I
think
the
getting
the
criteria
right
if
I
go
live
is
so
important,
based
back
on
those
good
specifications
that
you'd
develop
at
the
beginning,
and
it
would
be
important
really
to
have
internal
audit
at
the
table
for
those
go.
Live
decisions
not
to
not
to
be
part
of
the
decision
making,
of
course,
but
certainly
to
just
kick
the
tires
and
just
challenge
the
robustness
of
that
go.
Live
decision
before
a
big
big
transformation
program
goes
over.
A
And
be
happy
with
that?
Okay,
are
we
happy
with
the
recommendations
that
are
listed
in
the
the
report
ability?
Okay,
thank
you.
I'm,
going
to
move
on
to
item
a
gender
item
11
the
annual
report
of
corporate
governance
and
auditing
committee
and
Elizabeth.
M
Thank
you
chair.
The
annual
report
of
the
committee
was
introduced
in
response
to
the
super,
which
is
the
chartered
Institute
of
Public
Finance
and
accountancy
guidance
for
committees
in
public
local
authorities
and
the
police.
The
report
provides
a
summary
of
work
that
was
undertaken
by
the
committee
during
the
2223
Municipal
year
and
provide
Assurance
to
the
council,
who
are
ultimately
charged
with
governance,
that
the
committee
has
received
assurances
followed
up
on
concerns
and
added
value
to
the
council's
government's
Arrangements.
M
On
page
84
of
the
report.
There
is
a
summary
of
the
various
Assurance
reports
that
received
by
the
committee
during
that
year,
and
so
this
is
presented
to
two
committee
for
them
to
give
approval
for
the
chair
of
the
committee
to
sign
on
their
behalf.
Thank
you.
M
Thank
you
so
moving
on
to
the
work
program
and
development
program
and
the
work
program
for
the
committee
was
agreed
in
the
March
2023
meeting
and
the
program
of
work
is
adaptable,
so
maybe
subject
to
change
throughout
the
year
just
to
let
members
of
work
so
for
information.
The
annual
Assurance
report
on
decision
making
has
been
referred
from
the
July
meeting
to
September
and
in
addition
to
the
work
program,
there
is
a
development
plan
attached
which
aims
to
give
members
the
knowledge
that
they
need
to
fulfill
the
requirements
of
the
committee.