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From YouTube: Joyce James Interview
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A
All
right
so
welcome
joyce.
So
will
you
start
off
with
letting
us
know
your
name
and
your
title
and
any
experience
you've
had
dealing
with
child
welfare
issues.
B
Yes,
thank
you
good
morning.
It's
a
pleasure
to
be
here.
Thank
you
for
inviting
me.
My
name
is
joyce
james.
I
am
currently
president
and
ceo
of
joyce
james,
consulting
where
I
provide
technical
assistance,
support
and
training
to
various
systems
and
institutions
around
the
country
who
are
working
to
create
an
anti-racist
culture
so
that
all
of
the
people
that
they
serve
have
an
opportunity
for
equitable
outcomes.
B
I
am
a
social
worker
by
profession
I
started
my
career
as
a
frontline
child
protective
services
caseworker
in
the
state
of
texas,
and
I
was
fortunate
and
blessed
to
be
able
to
move
up
the
career
ladder
holding
several
different
positions
on
up
to
being
the
first
african-american
to
serve
as
the
director
of
the
texas
child
protective
services
program
in
2004.
B
I
was
able
to
develop
a
model
that
I
took
to
the
state
level
with
me
and
was
instrumental
in
testifying
before
the
texas
legislature,
so
that
texas
became
the
first
state
in
the
country
to
have
law
requiring
child
protective
services
to
address
the
racial
inequities.
A
Yeah,
it
sounds
like
you
definitely
have
a
lot
of
experience
on
the
topic,
but
for
some
of
our
attendees,
who
don't
necessarily
have
that
same
experience?
Can
you
define
for
us
disproportionality
and
disparity
and
then
talk
a
little
about
why
this
is
important
for
children
and
families
of
color
sure.
B
So
what
I
usually
tell
people
is
that
disproportionality
is
a
new
word
for
an
age-old
problem,
so
we
used
to
call
it
over-representation
and
actually
it
is
the
overall
under-representation
of
a
particular
group
race
in
a
system
as
compared
to
their
representation
in
the
general
population,
and
research
has
shown
that
both
african-american
and
native
american
families
and
their
children
are
overrepresented
in
the
child
welfare
system
relative
to
white
children
and
families
in
virtually
every
state
in
this
country.
B
So
it's
it's
really
important
to
understand
that,
from
a
from
a
systemic
place
that
if
we
only
saw
it
in
a
few
places,
you
know
we
might
be
able
just
look
at
it
at
an
individual
level.
But
the
fact
that
it
is
in
all
of
our
systems
not
just
child
welfare.
B
Then
it
means
that
we
have
to
have
a
deeper
analysis
and
look
at
the
root
causes
of
this.
So
disparity
in
comparison
is
the
comparison
of
the
ratio
of
one
race
or
ethnic
group
in
in
an
event
as
compared
to
another
race.
B
In
that
same
event,
and
so,
for
example,
we
know
that
black
children
in
foster
care
experience
more
moves
that
they're
less
likely
to
be
adopted,
that
they're
less
likely
to
be
reunited
with
their
families.
And
so
we
know
that
there
is
a
relationship
between
disproportionality
and
disparities
and
that
disparity
actually
increases
the
potential
for
disproportionality
to
to
occur.
And
so
you
were
asking
me
why
it's
important
is
that
where
was
that?
My
next
question.
B
It's
it's.
It's
really
important
for
children
and
families
of
color,
in
that,
as
I've
previously
said
it.
It's
not
just
about
child
welfare,
but
it
is
about
the
experiences
of
children
and
families
of
color
across
multiple
systems
and
institutions,
be
it
education,
welfare,
juvenile
justice,
criminal
justice,
health,
housing,
employment,
you
name
it.
The
same.
Families
have
the
worst
of
outcomes
in
all
of
these
systems
and
institutions,
and
I
would
say
that
it
is
deeply
rooted
in
the
history
of
institutional
and
structural
races
and
it's
important
as
it
relates
to
that.
B
This
has
been
going
on
for
a
very,
very
long
time
that
there's
a
history
of
it
that
is
still
embedded
in
the
very
fabric
of
our
systems
and
institutions,
and
that
it
is
important
that
we
understand
the
root
causes
of
disproportionality
and
disparities,
because
we
have
been
trained
to
treat
the
symptoms
of
a
much
deeper
problem,
and
when
we
only
treat
the
symptoms,
then
we
don't
achieve
the
outcomes
that
as
helping
professionals,
we
come
to
our
work
to
achieve,
and
so
you
know
I
approach
this
work
from
my
belief
that
people
in
health
and
professions
come
to
their
work.
B
To
help
and
not
to
hurt,
but
without
an
analysis
and
an
understanding
of
the
root
cause
of
these
issues,
we
condem
continue
to
unintentionally
cause
harm
and
and
what
it
creates,
because
it's
impacts
across
systems.
The
same
communities,
the
same
populations
of
people
is
that
it
creates
a
state
of
oppression
that
runs
very
deep,
that
it
creates
community
loss
that
people
experience
in
regard
to
their
relationships
with
systems
and
institutions
that
come
every
day
in
the
name
of
help.
B
Yet
when
you
examine
the
data
and
outcomes,
we're
not
helping
in
the
way
that
we
intend
to
help,
and
so
it
you
know
the
importance
of
it,
I
can't
even
speak
to
how
critically
necessary
it
is
that
we
move
away
from
the
socialization
that
we
have
had
around
our
role
as
helping
professionals
is
to
develop
programs
and
services
to,
in
my
words,
fix
broken
people
that
instead,
we
have
to
become
bold,
courageous
and
accountable
leaders
who
are
willing
to
at
least
have
some
mutual
accountability
for
not
what's
wrong
with
the
children
used
in
families
that
we
serve.
B
B
Yes
and-
and
you
know,
and
they
they
often
occur
in
in
referrals
and
and
what
I'll
say
about
even
you
know
before
they
get
to
the
front
door
of
the
child
welfare
system.
The
decision
to
refer
a
family
for
child
abuse
and
neglect
there's
a
lot
to
be
learned
in
that,
because
we
know
that
black
families
are
referred
at
two
to
three
times
their
representation
in
the
general
population.
B
We
know
when
we
work
with
mandatory
reporters
to
elevate
their
level
of
consciousness,
about
what
does
race
have
to
do
with
how
we
report
that
there
is
no
intent
to
harm
until
people
become
conscious
of
the
lens
that
we
use
to
make
decisions
about
who
we
will
report
and
so
and
just
to
kind
of
vary
a
little
bit
away
from.
B
That
is
to
say
that
I
had
the
opportunity
in
texas
to
do
work
with
mandatory
reporters
at
all
20
education
service,
centers
in
the
state
of
texas,
because
educators
were
the
highest
percentage
of
reporters
and
as
we
first
of
all,
re-emphasize
the
statutory
requirement
to
report
abuse,
neglect
and
then
to
examine
the
lens
through
which
we
report
in
about
six
hours.
We
had
educators
becoming
conscious
of
the
fact
that
for
some
children
that
they
would
call
their
parents
and
ask
them
what
happened
to
them
and
for
other
kids
in
the
same
are
very
similar
situations.
B
They
would
call
in
a
report
to
the
hotline
so
that
decision
point
from
the
very
beginning
to
refer.
That
case
is
an
area
that
needs
to
be
examined,
the
decisions
about
which
cases
will
be
substantiated,
the
decisions
about
which
cases
will
receive
services
in
their
own
home
or
have
a
removal
that
there's
disproportionality
there,
as
well
as
reunification
return
to
families.
Those
are
key
areas
where
we
see
disproportionality
and
disparities.
A
So
you
began
to
do
it
a
little
bit
there,
but
can
you
briefly
talk
about
the
your
experience
with
texas
and
identifying
disproportionality
and
disparity.
B
Yes-
and
I'm
not
going
to
tell
you
about
my
my
actual
personal
experience,
because
just
to
say
that
I
often
share
with
people
my
journey
from
caseworker
to
assistant
commissioner
and
my
work
along
the
way
to
be
the
one
to
raise
the
issues
about
the
racial
inequities
that
exist
in
the
texas
foster
care
system
and
having
the
opportunity
to
work
at
the
regional
level
and
then
to
be
become
the
the
leader
of
texas
child
protective
services
and
to
have
the
opportunity
to
bring
with
me
my
knowledge
and
understanding
of
those
issues
from
the
regional
level
and
to
be
in
a
position
to
actually
share
that
with
members
of
the
texas
legislature.
B
B
If
we're
willing
to
dig
deep
enough
and
ask
why
the
data
is
the
way
it
is
rather
than
accepting
that
that's
just
the
way
it
is
which
is
often,
you
know
the
way
that
that
happens,
and
so
when
I
had
the
opportunity
to
come
to
texas-
and
let
me
just
say
so-
I
was
the
first
african-american
to
serve
in
that
role
in
2004,
and
I
mentioned
that
because
we
know
that
child
welfare
in
texas
had
been
in
existence
since
the
1930s
and
so
to
even
put
that
in
context,
it's
important
for
us
to
understand
the
nature
and
design
of
our
systems
and
institutions.
B
B
B
There
was
little
disproportionality
in
terms
of
the
factual
information
about
who
was
abusing
and
neglecting
their
children,
and
so
there
was
even
an
understanding
of
the
racial
bias
that
was
in
that,
and
so,
as
we
began
to
do
our
work
in
texas,
we
were
able
to
own
that
racial
bias
existed
in
our
child
welfare
system
when
we
could
approach
it
in
a
way
that
was
not
about
pointing
fingers
and
laying
blame,
it
is
not
about
who
is
racist,
and
that
is
still
the
approach
that
I
use
in.
B
B
It's
whatever
is
at
the
root
of
all
of
these
things
right
and
so
what
we
did
was
we
pulled
data
at
the
state
level.
B
A
month
after
I
was
on
the
job
at
the
state
level,
the
governor
issued
an
order
for
investigation
of
our
agency
due
to
some
high-profile
child
deaths.
You
know
and
newspaper
reports
that
the
system
was
broken.
You
know
we
know,
we
all
know
the
story,
those
of
us
who
worked
in
child
welfare
at
first.
I
thought,
oh,
my
god.
B
What
have
I
gotten
myself
into,
but
then
I
realized
a
great
opportunity
that
I
had
to
share
the
data
that
I
had
already
collected
before
the
order
came
from
the
governor's
office,
and
so
I
was
able
to
get
examining
that
data
into
the
164
reform
recommendations
that
were
the
findings
of
the
investigation
that
were
done
and
that
was
accepted.
B
I
had
the
opportunity
to
testify
at
the
legislature
I
had
the
opportunity
to
actually
show
a
different
picture
of
how
we
had
examined
foster
care
data.
Previously,
if
you
look
at
the
pie
chart
in
texas
for
who
was
in
foster
care,
you
would
see
a
third
or
third
a
third
and
to
someone
who
is
not
examining
that
through
a
racial
equity
lens
that
might
look
okay,
but
the
fact
that
african
american
children
represented
11
percent
of
the
child
population
when
we
could
show
it
in
relationship
to
the
population
and
talk
about.
B
B
B
The
decision
points
were,
as
I
mentioned,
and
with
that
we
were
required
to
address
disproportionality
in
the
texas
child
welfare
system,
and
you
know,
and
along
with
that,
came
unprecedented
resources,
and
I
would
be
remiss
if
I
didn't
mention
you
know
the
the
fact
that
we
had
such
strong
support
from
some
of
our
legislators
and-
and
I
would
mention
senator
royce
west
and
state
representative
donna
duke
who
immersed
themselves
in
this
data
and
in
understanding
issues
where
we
could
have
conversations
about
institutional
and
structural
racism
and
as
a
result,
pinned
that
legislation
and
got
support
in
the
senate
and
in
the
house
for
that
legislation.
B
That
was
signed
into
law
by
governor
rick
perry
in
2005.,
and
it
came
again
with
unprecedented
resources.
B
We
had
they
increased
our
workforce
up
different
levels
of
the
department
of
family
and
protective
services
to
include
additional
dollars
for
prevention
services.
The
legislation
required
that
we
would
train
all
of
our
staff
and
cultural
competency.
B
I
knew
because
I
had
worked
in
the
system
a
long
long
time
that
it
could
not
be
the
same
old
cultural
competency,
training
that
we
have
been
having
for
years.
Where
you
sit
at
the
computer
and
you
check
off
some
boxes
and
print
yourself
off
a
certificate
and
suddenly
you're
culturally
competent,
I
knew
it
couldn't
be
that
because
that's
what
we
had
been
doing
and
it
did
not
work,
and
so
we
actually
invited
in
the
people's
institute
out
of
new
orleans
louisiana
the
undoing
racism
workshop.
B
We
had
money
allocated
from
the
legislature
for
this
training.
We
became
really
creative
and
you
know
expanded
those
funds
by
using
our
capital
dollars
to
create
an
initiative
to
address
disproportionality.
B
But
yet
we
created
a
state
office
fully
fully
staffed
office.
You
know
oftentimes
what
we
see
is
we
get
an
equity
director,
it's
one
person,
they
usually
look
like
me
or
you
and
they
don't
get
the
resources
that
they
need
to
do
the
work.
We
got
unprecedented
resources.
B
We
staffed
the
whole
office
at
the
state
level.
We
rolled
out
staff
resources
into
the
regional
offices
across
the
state
whose
sole
responsibility
was
to
guide
and
direct
this
work
and
work
in
relationship
with
the
community.
So
the
legislation
required
training.
It
required
that
we
use
data
to
inform
the
work
that
we
were
doing.
B
It
required
that
we
work
with
the
community
and
that
we
engage
parents
and
youth
in
this
work,
and
it
also
required
that
we
be
accountable
for
reporting
to
the
legislature
the
work
that
we
were
doing
and
the
outcomes
that
were
a
result
of
the
work
that
we
were
doing,
and
so
that
was
senate
bill.
Six
6
in
2005
and
and
what
I
can
tell
you
is
that
the
very
next
legislative
session,
another
piece
of
legislation,
was
passed
in
texas
senate
bill.
758.
B
It
expanded
the
work
that
we
were
to
do
in
senate
bill
6
to
making
sure
that
we
were
working
towards
a
more
family,
focused
approach
to
our
work.
We
created
a
whole
family
focused
division.
B
We
hired
former
foster
youth
to
be
state
employees
to
be
the
voice
of
the
youth
in
the
system.
We
brought
on
a
parent
who
led
the
statewide
efforts
of
a
parent
collaborative
group,
and
so
we
began
to
make
what
I
call
a
philosophical
and
cultural
shift
in
how
we
were
working,
and
this
is
this
is
absolutely
necessary
if
we're
going
to
keep
families
together
while
ensuring
the
safety
in
the
home.
B
If
we're
going
to
reduce
the
length
of
time
that
children
remain
in
foster
care,
thereby
reducing
the
disproportionality
and
disparities,
and
we
put
in
place
some
some
new
practice
models.
Ultimately,
in
about
three
years,
for
the
first
time,
we
had
more
youth
leaving
foster
care
than
coming
in.
A
third
of
our
children
were
in
kinship
care.
B
We
increased
our
adoptions
and
we
also
increased
the
number
of
families
who
were
getting
services
in
their
own
homes,
and
so
it
was
an
amazing
joint
effort
between
our
agency
and
the
support
that
we
received
from
the
texas
legislature
to
actually
do
this
work.
A
Wow
that
sounds
sounds
like
it
was
very
intense
and
very
productive
though
so.
My
second
to
last
question
is:
how
do
you
recommend
state
lawmakers
go
about
identifying
and
addressing
the
issue
of
disproportionality.
B
Before
I
answer
that
question,
if
I
might
just
mention
the
third
piece
of
legislation,
that
text
says
because,
as
I
travel
around
the
country-
and
I
share
that
texas
was
the
first
state
to
have
the
kind
of
legislation
that
required
us
to
actually
remediate
our
enforcement
actions
to
reduce
disproportionality
is
what
it
was
about.
People
say,
texas,
you
know,
and
and
so-
and
I
say
yes
and
I
say
if,
if
we
can
do
this
work
in
texas,
then
that
means
you
can
do
it
anywhere
right.
B
and
it
was
the
bill
that
actually
ended
up
in
my
transition
from
the
department
of
family
and
protective
services
to
the
texas
health
and
human
services
commission,
which
was
the
umbrella
agency
for
all
of
our
these
state
systems,
and
it
was
there
that
the
legislation
required,
as
I
mentioned
earlier,
that
we
expand
this
racial
equity
lens
and
this
training
it
created
an
interagency
council
and
it
required
the
state
leaders
of
child
welfare,
of
juvenile
justice,
of
the
education
agency,
of
health
and
of
mental
health
to
participate
in
an
interagency
council.
B
It
also
included
representatives
from
the
governor's
office,
it
included
a
representative
from
the
supreme
court
commission,
judicial
commission
on
children
using
families.
It
included.
You
know,
members
of
our
advisory
councils
from
across
the
state
community
and
faith
based
and
foster
youth,
and
we
were
required
to
examine
racial
inequities
across
those
systems
and
and
to
report
to
the
legislature
on
it.
And
you
know
in
a
way
I'm
saying
hold
systems
accountable.
That's
what
legislators
can
do
right.
B
You
can
hold
systems
accountable
for
digging
deeper
for
going
to
the
source
of
these
problems
and
not
continuing
to
create
all
of
these
programs
and
services.
Now,
I'm
not
saying
that
we
don't
need
programs
and
services,
but
we
will
never
not
need
them
unless
we
go
to
the
root
cause
of
these
problems,
and
so
we
did
submit
a
report
as
directed
by
the
legislature
in
2012.
B
I
was
the
presiding
officer
of
that
interagency
council,
with
many
many
recommendations
for
how
we
could
reduce
the
racial
inequities
within
our
system,
and
so
I
would
say
to
legislators
to
first
of
all,
if
you
have
not
immersed
yourselves
in
having
an
analysis
and
an
understanding
of
the
history
of
institutional
and
structural
racism
in
this
country
and
how
it
still
lives
and
breeds
in
the
very
fabric
of
all
of
our
systems
and
institutions,
to
be
intentional
and
deliberate
about
doing
that,
not
from
a
place
of
am
I
racist
or
not,
but
from
a
place
of
accountability
to
all
of
the
children.
B
Sometimes
the
people
that
are
doing
really
well
are
such
that
it
overshadows
the
disproportionality
and
disparities
that
we
see
and
and
and
have
regular
reporting
have
state
leaders
talk
about
what
are
their
plans
for
how
they're
going
to
address
these
issues,
create
a
space
for
them
to
tell
you
what
they
really
need
to
do
the
kind
of
work
that
has
to
be
done
at
that
level
and
again
don't
shy
away
from
the
discussion,
because
what
I
can
tell
you,
too,
is
that
there
is
no
quick
fix
to
the
hundreds
of
years
of
oppression
that
people
have
experienced,
and
I
would
be
remiss
not
to
mention
the
the
history
of
native
americans
and
the
child
welfare
and
the
trauma
that
they
still
have
to
deal
with
today,
as
it
relates
to
the
years
and
years
ago,
when
native
children's
were
removed
from
their
families,
and
you
know
their
their
whole
culture
taken
away
from
them,
forbidden
to
speak
their
language,
having
their
hair,
cut,
placing
them
in
white
christian
homes
and
in
essence,
if
we
are
willing
to
tell
the
truth,
it
was
about
assimilation
and-
and
you
know
that
assimilation,
including
included
using
white
education
to
educate
them
right
so
that
they
would
lose
everything
that
they
believed
in
and
valued
and
even
as
the
equal
laws
have
been
put
in
place,
it
really
has
not
altered,
as
it
should
have
the
experiences
of
our
native
american
children,
who
are
still
disproportionately
represented
in
our
system.
B
And
you
know
I
know
today
that
there
is
a
push
to
dismantle
equal
and
I
would
strongly
urge
that
we
not
do
that
that
we
not
dismantle
equal,
but
that
rather
we
work
to
strengthen
it
and
to
better
enforce
it,
so
that
we
began
to
at
least
work
to
reduce
some
of
the
trauma
that
this
population
has
felt
for
so
very,
very
long.
And
so
we
need
to
create
anti-racist
cultures
out
of
which
all
of
our
systems
operate.
B
Because
again
and
recognize,
I
would
say,
to
to
state
legislators-
recognize
the
relationship
that
all
of
these
systems
have
to
the
same
communities
and
the
same
population
of
people.
So
we
know
what
happens
to
african
american
and
native
american
children
in
virtually
every
foster
care
system
across
this
country.
But
we
also
know
that
this
happens
to
the
same
children
in
the
education
system
and
and
that
you
would
include
your
hispanic
latino
population
that
education
systems
across
the
country
are
failing
these
children
and
you
notice,
I
didn't
say
the
children
are
failing.
B
A
Was
a
lot
and
so
just
for
the
last
question
I
would
say
what
major
takeaway
do
you
hope
legislators
leave
this
conversation
with.