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From YouTube: LEHI Webinar Reimagining Resource Flexibility
Description
Dec 11, 2020
A
A
One
of
the
things
that
we've
been
talking
about
is
you
know
how
do
we
do
like
a
continuing
education
for
folks
that
are
still
in
office
and
and
participate
in
lehigh,
and
in
this
new
virtual
kobit
world,
we
decided
to
put
together
some
products
of
things
that
we've
seen
in
the
evaluations
the
last
few
years,
where
people
want
to
know
a
bit
more
information
than
what
they
got
during
the
course.
So
for
some
folks,
these
topics
might
even
be
brand
new.
A
A
All
these
things
when,
when
working
together
with
the
utility,
can
provide
more
resource
flexibility
and
more
efficiency,
more
decarbonization
in
our
distribution
system.
You
know
this
is
my
point
of
view
of
the
world
and
fortunately,
that
of
the
company
I
work
for,
but
you
know
we.
We
firmly
believe
that
the
most
you
know
the
most
decarbonized
efficient
and
economical
transaction
is
where
supply
and
demand
meets
itself
closest
to
each
other.
A
And
that's
where
we're
trying
to
figure
out
is
how
these
technologies
can
can
work
with
utilities,
on
the
distribution
system
in
our
communities,
and
that's
probably
part
of
getting
that
investment
in
our
neighborhoods
and
having
that
circular
economy.
That's
going
to
ensure
more
of
a
just
transition
as
well
when
it
comes
to
some
of
the
environmental
and
energy
justice
questions
when
it
comes
to
access
to
advanced
technologies.
A
We're
also
looking
to
find
out
if
what
tools
maybe
need
to
be
discussed
for
those
policy
makers
to
help.
Actually,
the
technology
unleash
the
flexibility
it
can
provide,
and
also
some
you
know
what
questions
should
we
be
examined
around
both
the
wholesale
and
the
distribution
level
markets
around
balancing
at
those
levels?
What
what
what
efficiencies
those
provide
and
how
can
they
be
monetized
to
be
put
in
place?
A
Our
first
speaker
is
no
stranger
to
the
legislative
energy
horizon
institute.
It's
judd
burton
who's.
The
associate
lab
director
for
the
energy
environment
directorate
at
the
pacific,
northwest
national
laboratory
judd's,
been,
I
think,
a
faculty
member
since
day,
one
with
lehigh
in
richland
for
all
of
our
sessions.
So
you
may
remember
him
particularly
around
the
tour
of
the
advanced
microgrid,
not
microgrid,
the
advanced
energy
transmission,
balancing
room
where
they're
training,
you
know
basically,
tomorrow's
the
grid
operators
and
how
to
work
with
a
digitized
grid.
A
He's
served
a
number
of
roles
over
the
years
at
pnl,
but
also
outside
he's
been
on
the
advanced
council
for
energy,
efficient
economy
and
also
the
university
of
michigan
energy
institute's
boards
he's
a
good
graduate
from
the
university
of
washington
engineering
program.
I
always
a
lehigh
favorite.
Let's
give
a
virtual
welcome
to
judd
burton
from
pacific
northwest
national
laboratory.
The
floor
is
yours,.
B
B
B
So,
first
at
the
at
the
highest
level,
I
want
to
give
you
the
big
picture
on
where
we're
going
with
with
energy
storage
and
it's.
This
is
to
put
it
in
perspective,
because
the
main
point
is
we're
still
at
the
beginning
of
a
lot
of
change
and-
and
we
can
argue
or
discuss
how
fast
that
change
will
occur.
B
But
if
you
just
look
at
vehicles
which
is
really
driving
energy
storage
in
the
u.s,
at
least
consumer
products
and
vehicles
worldwide,
there's
about
80
million
cars
sold
per
year
plus
or
minus
right
now,
total
in
the
world,
there's
5.6
million
electric
vehicles
so
still
a
very
small
number.
It
may
seem
like
there's
a
tesla.
You
know
every
time
you
go
outside,
but
there's
really
a
small
number
of
electric
vehicles
on
the
road,
but
the
infrastructure
is
being
built
up
with
over
5.2
million
charging
points
installed
and
that's
growing
in
the
u.s.
B
We
have
about
17
million
cars
sold
per
year,
cumulatively
there's
1.2
million
vehicles.
So
still
a
small
number.
If
you
look
at
u.s
grid
storage-
and
it's
it's
difficult
to
put
all
of
this
in
perspective,
but
there's
a
lot
of
generating
capacity
and
even
with
all
of
the
deployed
projects
of
energy
storage,
and
I'm
going
to
show
you
some
of
those.
It's
really
still
a
very
small
number,
so
we're
at
the
front
end
of
change
policy.
B
B
That
is,
that
is
driving
this
reduction
in
cost
and
increased
volumes,
and
there
is
a
goal.
At
least
this
is
a
department
of
energy
goal
and
a
lot
of
advanced
research
work
to
even
drive
that
down
to
half
of
what
it
is
today.
If
that
goal
could
be
reached,
you
will
see
energy
storage
of
this
battery
storage
ubiquitous.
It
can
be
deployed
in
so
many
different
applications
that
cost
wise
it's
difficult
for
it
to
be
deployed
today
and
here's
a
quick
map-
and
I
hope
you
can
see
these
these-
these
pretty
well.
B
The
green
circles
are
fully
commissioned
battery
manufacturing
facilities
and
almost
all
of
these
are
lithium
ion
the
yellow
are
under
construction
and
the
red
are
announced.
I
show
this
because
it's
starting
to
show
the
the
massive
global
competition
for
where
batteries
are
going
to
be
made
and
who's
going
to
own
the
supply
chain.
I've
been
fortunate
enough
to
to
travel
with
the
department
of
energy
to
one
of
those
big
red
circles
in
china.
B
It
was
the
largest
lithium-ion
battery
manufacturing
facility
in
the
world
at
the
time,
and
bmw
packs
were
rolling
off
the
back
end
of
it.
It
was
was
pretty
darn
impressive.
The
good
news
is,
we
in
the
us
are
in
the
race
and
we're
in
the
hunt
and
there's
there's
a
lot
of
battery
manufacturing
come
on
coming
online
to
meet
our
market.
In
fact,
just
this
last
year
gm
announced
a
1.2
or
almost
2
billion
dollar
manufacturing
plan
in
ohio
with
lg
chem.
B
So
I
thought
I'd
put
this
slide
out.
It's
close
to
being
up
to
date,
because
I
think
there's
two
ways
that
that
that
regions
are
evaluating
energy
storage,
one
is
by
policies
and
targets,
and
these
show
some
of
the
targets
that
are
put
in
place
and
those
really
do
drive
a
large
scale
battery
installations
and
then
I'll
give
some
examples
a
little
bit
later
of
of
a
different
approach.
That's
not
a
target
or
a
policy
base.
B
It's
really
a
risk
sharing
base
where
some
states
and
I'll
use
washington
state,
as
example,
is
putting
money
out
there.
That's
matched
by
utilities
to
demonstrate
the
value
of
energy
storage
in
a
lot
of
different
situations,
with
the
hope
that
this
will
help
scale
the
applications
and
everybody
can
learn
from
the
demonstrations,
not
only
in
a
specific
region
but
throughout
the
country.
B
And
of
course
you
know,
the
renewable
targets
or
clean
electricity
targets
also
have
an
impact
on
this.
What
the
data
is
showing
right
now
is
is
the
renewable
targets
or
clean
electricity
targets,
aren't
necessarily
driving
energy
storage
demonstrations
and
installations,
but
it's
starting
to
drive
energy
storage
installations
as
we
as
we
move
forward.
B
So
I
I
thought
you
might
you
might
like
this
slide.
This
this
slide
is
is
very
recent.
In
fact,
it's
it's
from
december
of
2020
and
it's
from
the
bloomberg
nef.
I
get
a
lot
of
my
data
there
and
it
shows
by
region.
You
know
the
amount
in
megawatts
of
installations
on
the
left-hand
side,
and
then
it
shows
by
the
color
there
what
the
application
was
and
it
starts
to
get
at
the
value
stacking.
So
you
know
the
blue
is
ancillary
services.
B
Things
like
frequency
regulation,
price
arbitrage
is
the
pinkish
color
network
services
is
orange.
There's
almost
none
of
that.
You
can
see.
System
capacity
is
very
strong
in
cal
iso
renewable
integration-
it
you
know,
plays
a
role
in
each
one
of
of
the
different
regions
and,
of
course,
it's
going
from
top
to
bottom.
It's
cal
iso
pjm,
which
is
east
coast
market
ercot,
which
is
texas.
B
Iso
new
england,
of
course,
is
new
england
area.
Miso
is
midwest
new
york,
iso
in
the
new
york
area
as
well.
The
the
big
category
is
end
users
and-
and
you
can
see
that
certainly
is
large
in
the
calif
california,
iso
market
and
and
that
is
really
aggregated.
Energy
storage,
maybe
pushed
down
towards
the
the
end
user
or
customer
sites.
B
And
then
I've
tried
to
highlight
a
few
key
points
on
the
right
hand
side
here,
especially
in
the
context
of
larger
ferc
orders,
especially
841,
which
is
allowing
energy
storage
to
participate
in
all
energy
capacity
and
ancillary
service.
This
starts
to
be
a
a
big
deal.
There's
more
storage
projects
that
are
coming
on
because
of
state
clean
energy
targets
and
federal
tax
incentives.
B
B
There's
minimal
customer
sighted
storage
that
is
actively
participating
in
the
wholesale
markets-
and
this
might
be
an
interesting
discussion
for
later
on-
is
is
kind
of
the
distribution
side
versus
the
wholesale
market.
But
that's
changing:
most
systems
are
used
for
reliability
and
demand,
charge
avoidance
and
then
future
distributed.
Energy
resources
are
being
aggregated
at
market
reforms
which
will
make
behind
the
meter
more
competitive.
B
The
really
big
take-home
point
I
want
to
show
from
the
left-hand
slide
is:
there's
no
one-size-fit
fits-all.
It
really
depends
on
where
you're
at
in
the
country
and
what
the
market
drivers
are
relative
to
the
the
application
space,
and
this
shows
how
it's
changing,
and
so
this
is,
on
the
left
hand,
side
is
kind
of
the
the
market
penetration
and
how
it's
changing
over
the
years.
And
if
you
look
at
2015,
you
can
see
ancillary
services
was
the
real
driver
for
a
lot
of
the
energy
storage
installations.
B
But
that's
changing
over
time,
and
if
you
look
at
the
first
half
of
2020,
you
can
see
that
system
capacity
has
become
a
big
deal.
You
know
that's
meeting
peak
at
certain
certain
times
of
the
year
and
end
user
aggregation
is,
is
starting
to
take
over,
and
that
is
the
trend
that
is
happening.
We're
moving
from
ancillary
services
to
other
applications.
B
This
is
a
quick
map
of
some
of
the
demonstration
projects
we've
been
involved
in
and
we're
usually
asked
to
go
in
and
do
a
technical
and
an
economic
analysis
to
help
utilities
that
we
partner
with
these
are
all
utility
projects
understand
what
size
battery
they
need,
both
from
a
power
and
energy
point
of
view,
and
how
best
to
apply
that,
so
they
can
actually
get
a
return
on
investment
through
value
stacking.
So
let
me
let
me
give
you
a
couple
examples
of
those,
and
this
is
what
I
mean
by
value
stacking.
B
You
know
it's
everything
from
bulk
energy
services
through
ancillary
services,
transmission
services,
distribution,
service
and
customer
service.
With
all
on
the
right-hand
side,
you
can
see
all
the
different
types
of
services
that
could
be
provided.
So
maybe
you're
struck
right
off
the
bat
that
this
is
complicated.
It
is
you
know,
and
it's
this
is
why
I
said
earlier,
it's
very
hard
to
say
here's
one
answer
for
energy
storage.
It
really
depends
on
kind
of
the
resource
needs
and
the
market
drivers
almost
at
a
utility
basis,
but
certainly
at
a
regional
basis.
B
So
let
me
let
me
talk
a
little
bit
about
the
one
of
the
the
risk
sharing
opportunities.
Washington
state
department
of
commerce
started
a
clean
energy
fund
several
years
ago,
where
they
actively
partnered
with
utilities
throughout
washington
state,
and
this
lists
the
utilities
on
the
left-hand
side,
four
large-scale
battery
demonstrations
all
with
a
different
need
and
a
different
application
space,
and
they
were
highly
encouraging
the
the
washington
state
utilities
to
explore
and
deploy
and
learn
from
energy
storage
deployments
and
to
share
that
knowledge
and
what
was
learned
with
other
utilities.
B
So
it
could
move
the
entire
market
forward,
build
the
vendor
supply
chain
and,
most
importantly,
help
to
start
validating
the
benefits,
whether
it
was
resiliency
capacity
or
value
stacking
I'll
go
into
a
little
bit
more
detail
on
these.
This
was
not
target
driven
or
policy
driven
and
here's
a
slide.
That's
got
a
got.
A
lot
of
data
on
it,
but
what
what
it
shows
on
the
left
hand,
side
is
kind
of
the
return
on
investment
for
certain
energy
storage
applications
over
time.
B
The
washington
state
ones
are
the
psc
glacier
decatur
island,
there's
an
energy
northwest
one
and
a
vista
turner,
but
I've
also
included
a
couple.
Other
ones
on
the
far
left
is
oregon,
and
that
was
a
salem
smart
energy
application
with
with
portland
general
electric
and
on
the
far
right
is
a
massachusetts
application
and
the
different
colors
show
the
return
on
investment
based
on
different
application
spaces-
and
I
I
know
probably
the
words
are
very
small,
but
it's
everything
from,
for
example,
green
is
frequently
frequency
response.
B
The
light
blue
is
reliability,
benefits
some
of
the
the
dark
green
colors
are
in
brown
or
demand
charges.
The
black
is
arbitrage,
the
dark
green
is
transmission
deferral
and
what
all
the
different
colors
show
you
and
that
the
point
to
take
home
is
it
really
varies
upon
where
you're
at
in
the
country
and
what
the
specific
need
is,
if
you're
trying
to
say
is
a
x
million
dollar
worth
of
investment.
Gonna
give
me
the
resiliency.
The
reliability
and
the
value
stacking
coming
coming
back
from
it.
B
The
good
news
is,
there's
all
kinds
of
tools
that
have
been
developed,
both
in
private
industry
and
national
labs,
to
work
with
utilities.
To
do
this
kind
of
evaluation
based
on
economic
data,
the
utilities
provide
and
the
technical
data
that
they
will
provide,
based
on
the
the
challenges
they're
facing
here's,
a
specific
example.
This
is
a
glacier
up
in
the
the
north
cascades
it
it's
at
the
end
of
the
line.
B
Their
challenge
really
is
transmission
line.
Outages,
I
think,
there's
maybe
one
line
that
goes
into
this
small
community
ice
and
snow
and
vegetation
take
the
lines
down
pretty
predictably
each
year
and
they
wanted
some
energy
storage
devices
set
up
there.
So
when
that
happens,
and
it
takes
days
to
sometimes
get
it
fixed,
they
can
keep
lights
on
in
the
center
of
the
town.
Really
a
big
deal
for
this
small
community.
The
picture
on
the
right
gives
you
a
little
bit
of
an
idea
of
scale
when
we
start
talking
about
big
battery
systems.
B
They're
usually
brought
in
in
these
these
trailers
that
you
would
see
on
the
back
of
a
truck
all
of
the
battery
storage
is,
is
and
and
all
the
com,
the
electronics
and
controls
are
within
these
containers
and
the
bigger
energy.
You
need
the
more
of
those
containers
you
get,
and
so
you
start
to
think
about
one
to
two
megawatts,
as
kind
of
being
the
the
smallest
level
that
you
would
need-
and
if
you
look
you
know,
it
says,
locate
two
megawatts
4.4
megawatt
hours
in
all
of
these.
B
B
Its
benefits
that
they're
evaluating
right
now
are
energy,
arbitrage
and
regulation
up
and
down
frequency
response
capacity,
and
then
they
put
a
value
on
outage
mitigation,
which
is
one
of
the
primary
primary
needs
for
this,
and
in
fact,
I
think
in
the
last
couple
of
months
they
lost
power
to
glacier
and
the
battery
system
kicked
on
and
provided
that
that
base
load
energy
to
keep
the
lights
on
and
the
build
and
the
businesses
open
in
the
center
of
town.
So
the
first
application
was
a
big
success
story.
B
I
will
say
in
all
of
these
early
demonstrations:
there
is
a
big
learning
curve
that
everyone's
going
through
on
how
to
install
them,
how
to
manage
them
and
how
to
integrate
them
from
the
grid,
and
I
think
that's
one
of
the
big
cross-cutting
learn
the
things
everybody
has
learned.
Here's
another
one.
B
Frequency
regulation,
you
can
start
to
include
arbitrage.
It
gets
really
down.
I
think,
jeff,
to
what
you
were
talking
about
was
kind
of
the
distribution
need.
It
can
be
real
time
balancing
you
know,
inner
hour
balancing.
You
know,
all
of
those.
All
of
those
kind
of
I
will
call
them
shorter
term
services
that
you
could
be
out
on
a
market
participating
in,
and
I
would
put
that
and
please
jeff
help
add
in
if
I've
missed
any
of
the
the
big
ones.
B
It
is.
It
is
more
about
the
short
time
value
you
could
put
on
whether
it's
inner
hour
balancing,
sometimes
it's
inner
day,
balancing
quick
frequency
response,
which
means
you're
responding.
You
know
on
seconds
basis,
to
fluctuations
of
voltage
in
in
the
grid
kind
of
those
near-term
market
drivers.
You
can
put
a
dollar
on
if
there's
a
slide,
I'm
showing
right
now
it
would
not
be
outage
mitigation.
B
As
a
counter
example,
a
utility
has
to
put
a
value
on
that.
It's
not
about
resiliency,
because
the
utility
would
have
to
put
a
value
on
that
just
to
clarify.
Maybe
one
thing
on
that
for
outage
mitigation.
What
we
found
with
some
utilities
is
they
can
quantify
that,
based
on
how
many
truck
rolls
they
avoided.
B
You
know
when
they
had
a
power
outage,
because
the
battery
kicked
in
and
kept
things
up
and
running,
or
if
it's
a
power
quality
application,
how
much
avoided
cost
they
had
because
they
went
down
because
they
were
able
to
deliver
power
quality
to
a
manufacturing
facility.
Applications
like
that,
I
might.
A
A
B
Yeah,
thank
you,
jeff,
and
I
think
one
of
the
key
questions
always
on
that
is
how
to
aggregate
individual
homeowners.
If
it's
behind
the
meter
versus
community
energy
storage,
which
starts
to
be
under
utility
control-
and
I
I
know
for
sure,
there's
differing
views
on
that
all
right.
I
thought
I'd
quickly
give
another
example
here
and
didn't
wrap
up.
This
is
nantucket
island.
B
You
know
off
the
off
cape
cod
in
massachusetts,
and
this
is
another
project
we
were
brought
in
involved
national
grid.
It
was
a
small
res.
Their
challenge
was
they
had
about
11
000
people.
You
know
on
nantucket
that
swells
to
50
000
in
the
summer
huge
energy
needs
its
current
bulk.
Electricity
was
supplied
by
two
cables.
B
You
can
see
the
combined
capacity
and
two
small
island
combustion
turbines,
as
they
were
looking
forward
to
growth.
They
had
to
do
an
evaluation
of.
Was
it
worth
the
third
cable
coming
over
from
the
mainland,
which
is
very
expensive
or
was
another
option
available
and
working
with
them
and
evaluating
the
technologies?
B
B
This
is
a
tesla
lithium
ion,
which
was
up
to
48
megawatt
hours,
and
so
the
use
case
evaluated
a
little
bit
of
a
different
mix
here:
transmission
deferral
outage
mitigation
full
far,
optimization
jeff,
one
of
the
things
you
just
mentioned,
and
conservation
of
voltage
reduction,
and
so
it
really
was
on
the
market
side,
also
focusing
on
forward
capacity
markets,
arbitrage,
regulation
and
kind
of
balancing,
spinning
reserves,
so
a
very
different
use
case
and
a
a
very
different
return
on
investment.
Given
this
specific
application.
B
And
so
I
you
know
at
a
very
high
level-
and
I
don't
think
I'll
walk
through
these,
but
through
all
those
demonstrations
that
we've
we've
been
performing
throughout
the
country.
You
know
the
main
points
I
want
to
kind
of
drive
home
here
is
one
size
does
not
fit
all.
You
need
kind
of
the
local
data,
both
from
a
grid
operations
and
performance
perspective,
but
and
you
need
to
balance
that
with
the
market
forces
both
today
and
going
forward
in
the
future.
B
Often
the
battery
name
plate
capacity
doesn't
exactly
meet
what
they
see
in
the
field
and
because
batteries
really
depend
on
how
they're
used
and
so
there's
a
lot
of
work
going
on
to
optimize
and
understand
the
actual
use
in
the
field
and
how
that
affects
battery
performance.
The
key
aspect
being
there
is
at
what
point
in
the
future
will
you
need
to
replace
a
battery
system?
Is
it
three
years,
seven
years
or
15
years,.
A
Great
thanks
judd
and
if
you
have
a
question,
go
ahead
and
to
raise
your
hand
scroll
your
thing
down
to
the
bottom
and
click
participants
and
then
there's
a
blue
hand
at
the
bottom
left
hand.
Side.
If
you
want
to
click
that,
I
will
call
on
you,
I'm
going
to
keep
an
eye
for
hands
going
up
judd.
If
you
can
go
back
to
your
world
market
slide.
Would
you
mind
it's
like,
like
maybe
slide?
Four
sorry
yeah,
no
problem.
A
A
B
B
The
growth
of
india
in
that
conference
was
strong
growth
in
renewables
and,
as
you
said
also,
you
know
the
challenge
of
dealing
with
rural
environments,
and
so
it
was
probably
for
a
lot
of
that
environment
was
not
going
to
be
built
up
with
a
big,
centralized
grid
infrastructure
like
ours.
It
was
much
more
of
a
distributed
renewables
and
jeff.
A
A
It
seems
to
me
that
you
know
that's
a
good
business
case
for
where
you've
got
a
lot
of
non-wire
solutions
hitting
the
ground
in
australia
and
a
lot
of
mechanisms
to
make
storage
work
just
with
part
of
their
current
infrastructure
there-
and
I
don't
know
if
you've,
I
know
the
transactive
grid
group-
that's
running
out
of
the
lab,
with
ron
melton
and
so
forth.
That
they've
they've
got
a
lot
of
participation
from
australia,
a
lot
of
their
proceedings
about
how
storage
is
going
to
work
with
the
utility
and
the
customer.
B
Yeah
and-
and
I
don't
know
the
details
of
australia
other
than
I
mean
you
just
you
still
do-
have
a
lot
of
people
aggregated
in
the
big
cities
on
the
coast
and
given
they
had
a
strong
coal
infrastructure.
I
think
there
was
like
us
a
lot
of
transmission
infrastructure,
but
the
renewables
are
starting
to
change
that
and
I
know
they're
actively
kind
of
taking
a
step
back
and
looking
at
the
entire
architecture
of
their
grid
and
how
that
will
change
over
time.
A
Right
and
we
have
two
questions
in
the
chat
one
around:
where
are
the
drivers
of
the
chinese
battery
growth?
Is
it
eevee
or
remote
communities
and
then
another
question
just
to
throw
them
both
at
you?
Judd
is
to
you
know
what
what's
the
what's:
the
growth
around
non-lithium
battery
technology
and
maybe
to
rephrase
that
a
bit
you
know
kind
of
what
is
the
abundant
material
battery
front?
Look
like
versus
the
rare
earth.
B
Type
yeah
yeah.
First,
on
the
on
the
the
china
front,
you
know,
of
course
they
have
a
very
different
policy
drivers
than
we
do.
You
know
they're
very
they're,
very
much
state
state-owned
top-down,
and
so
that
has
been
the
big
driver
for
certainly
the
manufacturing
base
that
you
see
there
and
then
policies
that
you
know
mandate
a
certain
number
of
taxis
or
buses
or
electric
vehicle
create
the
market
and
so
other
in
many
ways.
B
And
so
it
really
is
it
to
answer
the
question.
Maybe
a
little
bit
more
directly.
It's
electric
vehicles
primarily,
but
you
are
now
starting
to
see
policy.
That's
driving
many
applications
out
into
the
grid
space.
So
it's
a
it's
a
combination
of
of
both
but
the
volume
the
the
big
dots
on
that
map
are.
The
volume
are
mostly
consumer,
electronics
and
electric
vehicles.
B
Let's
say
cobalt
or
non-lithium.
There's
a
lot
of
research
work
going
on
in
that
area,
but
it
hasn't
solved
the
problem
yet
in
terms
of
constrained
rare
earth
materials
in
the
in
the
vendor
supply
chain,
not
that's
meeting
the
performance
that
people
would
like
people
would
expect
out
of
their
current
battery
system.
A
A
He
has
25
years
of
experience
in
the
power
industry
with
roles
in
design,
engineering,
project
management,
project
development
and
sales.
He
has
a
bachelor
of
science
in
mechanical
engineering
from
manhattan
college,
an
mba
from
finance
from
fordham
university
glad
to
have
him
here
with
us
today
to
share
news
about
this
exciting
project
that
they're
promoting
on
the
west
coast.
Up
here
the
floor
is
yours:.
C
C
Okay,
great
yeah,
so
what
I'm
going
to
be
speaking
about
today
is
kind
of
an
alternative
for
for
for
battery
solutions.
Emit
species
power,
we're
very
excited
about
the
growth
of
batteries.
We
also
feel
like
green
hydrogen
is,
is,
is
going
to
play
a
big
role
in
decarbonization
and
resiliency
of
the
grid
as
we
as
we
move
forward
here.
C
So
as
far
as
mitsubishi
is
concerned,
where
mitsubishi
power
we're
100,
subsidiary
of
mitsubishi,
heavy
industries-
and
you
know
historically-
we've
been
a
very
carbon
intensive
company-
you
know
very
focused
on
large-scale
power
plants
which
are
fossil
fuel,
mainly
fossil
fuel,
but
we're
transitioning
very
quickly
and
a
lot
of
our
technologies
are
transitioning
to
decarbonization.
So
what
we're
speaking
a
lot
about
today
is
the
hydrogen-ready
gas
turbines
we're
also
doing
things
like
investing
in
pv
solar.
We
have
a
development
company
in
pennsylvania,
that's
doing
pv
solar
development.
C
We
have
a
joint
venture
with
vestas
doing
offshore
wind
large-scale
offshore
wind
activities.
We
do
have
a
lithium-ion
battery
group.
That's
growing
exponentially
a
lot
of
interest,
as
judd
mentioned
in
battery
installations.
We're
seeing
in
that
really
a
lot
of
activity
on
the
wholesale
market
and
very
big
installations.
These
installations
seem
to
be
growing
more
and
more
by
the
day
and
then
hydrogen
energy
storage
we've
got
a
very
exciting
project
where
we're
going
through
a
lot
of
detail
about,
and
then
carbon
caps
utilization
storage.
C
You
know,
and
hydrogen
I
think,
has
just
reached
kind
of
a
a
sizzling
point
as
far
as
a
buzzword,
right,
everybody's
talking
about
you
know
why
hydrogen
and
why
now
and
so
we'll
go
into
that
in
a
bit
more
detail.
But
you
know
with
mitsubishi.
We
announced
a
few
projects
globally,
starting
about
four
years
ago,
with
the
fatten
fault
magnum
project
in
the
netherlands.
C
So
this
project
will
be
taking
hydrogen
from
from
norway.
This
will
be
natural
gas
that
will
the
hydrogen
will
be
stripped
from
natural
gas
through
a
a
process
called
smr
esteem,
methane
reformation,
the
carbon
from
that
process
will
be
utilized
and
captured
and
utilized
enhanced
oil
recovery.
So
no
carbon
emitted
to
the
atmosphere
and
the
hydrogen
will
be
sent
to
the
existing
gas
turbine,
which
is
currently
running
on
natural
gas
and
is
slated
by
2025
to
be
converted
to
100
percent
natural
100
percent
hydrogen.
C
Here,
which
we'll
be
talking
a
lot
about
today,
are
two
projects
that
mitsubishi's
working
on
the
first
being
the
inter-mountain
power
project.
This
is
a
project
in
delta
utah,
where
the
inter-mountain
power
agency
is
is
planning
on
shutting
down
their
coal
facility
in
2025
and
re-powering
it
with
a
natural
glass
gas
hydrogen
facility.
So
we
recently
won
the
order
for
these
those
hydrogen
capable
gas
turbines
for
that
facility
and
then,
in
parallel
with
that,
we're
developing
a
energy
storage
facility
which
will
utilize
the
saw
caverns
adjacent
to
the
site.
C
So
I'll
provide
a
lot
of
detail
about
those
two
projects
in
a
bit
here.
But,
as
I
mentioned,
you
know
we're
entering
this
phase
of
of
of
deep
decarbonization.
We
looked
at
that
kind
of
a
two
phase
approach.
The
phase
one
is
the
retirement
of
a
lot
of
the
coal
facilities,
we're
seeing
a
lot
of
regulatory
pressure
on
on
coal
fire
power
plants,
and
so
what
we
were
well
into
that
phase,
especially
in
the
west
coast,
where
a
lot
of
the
pro
plants
are
have
announced.
C
Shutdown
dates
and
a
lot
of
these
coal
plants
have
been
replaced
with
natural
gas
facilities
and
renewable
facilities,
but
we're
starting
to
enter
into
phase
two
and,
as
joe
mentioned
in
his
presentation,
we're
seeing
a
large
growth
in
energy
storage
and
most
of
that
initial
phase
of
energy
storage
is
short
duration,
storage.
So
in
the
form
of
four
hour
less.
So
we
can
capitalize
on
the
renewables
that
are
generated
during
the
day
and
and
taking
advantage
of
some
of
the
some
of
those
peaks
in
the
evening
and
early
mornings.
C
Now
with
battery
energy
storage,
so
energy
storage
is
really
going
to
unlock
the
growth
of
of
additional
renewables.
So
we're
excited
about
batteries
being
short-term
storage
mechanism,
but
also
excited
about
the
potential
for
hydrogen
and
on
a
long
duration,
storage,
medium.
So
we've
been
talking
about
hydrogen
for
quite
some
time
now
and,
and
the
questions
come
up
with
why
why
now
for
for
for
green
hydrogen,
specifically
in
power
generation,
we
looked
at
this
kind
of
a
four
pillar
answer.
You
know
the
regulatory
approach.
C
Does
the
regulatory
legislative
environment
exist
to
promote
carbon
zero
carbon
targets,
the
needs
for
storage?
Does
your
power
grid
have
enough
intermittent
renewable
power
that
procurements
are
becoming
a
problem
and
then,
finally,
bringing
storage
back
to
back
to
the
market?
Can
can
you
produce
and
stores
hydrogenated
at
an
economically
viable
rate
that
makes
it
a
viable
option
and
can
you
bring
it
back
to
the
market?
Is
there
a
technology
available
to
bring
it
back
to
the
market
reliably
and
safely?
C
So
the
answer
to
all
of
these
questions
is
now
pretty
much
a
resounding
yes.
Most
of
the
western
states
have
very
aggressive
decarbonization
targets
anywhere
from
80
to
100
we're
seeing
dates
typically
in
the
2045
to
2050
time
frame,
but
we're
seeing
actually
a
lot
of
pressure
on
these
dates
being
pulled
back
to
the
2035
time
frame.
C
So,
there's
a
need
to
move
very
quickly
on
on
deep
decarbonization
and
and
to
look
at
technologies
that
are
going
to
help
us
do
that,
and
so,
as
I
mentioned,
batteries
are,
are
a
great
solution
for
this
short
intraday
storage.
But
as
we
start
looking
at
batteries
going
a
long
duration,
the
economics
just
don't
support
long-duration
storage
and
batteries.
C
So
we
look
at
just
cal
iso
data
here
on
the
left-
and
this
is
just
this
year
alone-
we're
looking
at
april
of
this
year
alone,
where
we're
looking
at
300
gigawatts
of
curtailments
due
to
just
excess
generation.
So
basically
too
much
solar
all
at
one
time.
Just
needs
needs
to
go
somewhere
right.
So
batteries
once
again
will
be
part
of
that
solution.
C
So
what
does
an
energy
storage
system
look
like
as
compared
to
kind
of
a
battery
energy
storage
system?
So
in
a
battery
system
you
we
have
a
rectifier
which
controls
the
rate
of
charge
it
takes
in
the
the
renewable
energy
into
the
system.
In
the
case
of
a
hydrogen
system,
we
utilize
an
electrolyzer.
Basically,
this
is
a
membrane
system
which
takes
electricity,
splits,
water
molecule
into
hydrogen
and
oxygen,
and
then
we
utilize
a
form
of
storage
in
the
case
of
a
lithium-ion
battery
system.
C
Obviously,
the
battery
is
the
form
storage,
but
in
the
case
of
a
hydrogen
system,
we're
looking
at
salt,
caverns,
pipe
grounds,
pipelines
or
other
above-ground
vessels
for
for
storage
and
then.
Finally,
in
the
battery
system,
we
use
the
inverter
to
to
control
the
rate
of
discharge
and
a
hydrogen
system.
We
use
a
gas
turbine
or
even
a
fuel
cell
to
control
the
rate
of
discharge
for
that
system.
C
So,
as
we
look
at
the
economics
of
storage,
certainly
on
the
short
duration
as
a
short
duration
form
of
storage,
the
lithium-ion
storage
solutions
will
clearly
be
the
winner
for
the
foreseeable
future.
As
joe
mentioned,
the
economics
on
lithium-ion
systems
are
are
getting
better
every
day.
Technology
is
improving
every
day,
but
also
on
the
on
the
hydrogen
system.
The
cost
of
electrolyzers
is
decreasing,
we're
seeing
exponential
growth
and
ex
electrolyzer
manufacturing,
which
is
driving
down
costs
effects
of
of
electrolyzes.
C
So
as
we
forecast
the
need
of
of
energy
storage
going
beyond
the
the
intraday
market
and
going
into
the
intraday
market
and
starting
to
look
at
weeks
and
months
of
energy
storage,
it
greatly
favors
large-scale
solutions
like
hydrogen
solutions,
so
moving
forward
here,
we're
looking
at
the
the
cost
of
of
green
hydrogen.
What
it
is
today
in
the
forecast
this
is
to
chart
on
the
left
is
blue,
bear
bloomberg
new
energy
finance
data
that
we've
overlaid.
C
Our
pricing
based
upon
some
of
the
work
that
we're
doing
with
some
of
the
projects
we're
doing
today,
so
the
forecast
for
for
where
we
are
today
is,
is
around
two
and
a
half
dollars
per
kilogram.
For
for
renewable
energy
storage,
which
is
significantly
higher
than
the
cost
of
where
fossil
derived
hydrogens
today,
so
fossil
derived
hydrogen
being
smr
derived
hydrogen
you're,
basically
stripping
off
the
hydrogen
from
a
natural
gas
process
so
significantly
higher
than
that
today.
C
So
what
does
that
mean
for
a
facility
that
we
would
install
today?
Basically
we're
looking
at
facilities
today,
where
we
install
the
infrastructure
today?
The
gas
turbine
infrastructure
today
and
utilize
a
smaller
blend
of
hydrogen
in
the
gas
turbine
to
take
advantage
of
some
of
the
decarbonization
effects,
while
not
increasing
the
cost
for
production
dramatically.
C
So
if
we
slowly
increase
the
blend
of
that
hydrogen
and
asset
over
time,
while
the
cost
decline
of
hydrogen
occurs
over
time,
we
can
basically
maintain
the
operating
cost
of
the
assets,
not
seeing
major
rates
bags
by
introducing
hydrogen
into
a
gas
turbine
today.
So
that
means
you
can
put
this
critical
infrastructure
in
today,
basically
future
proofing
that
infrastructure
and
allowing
it
to
design
as
the
need
as
your
renewable
portfolio
standards
increase,
and
then
your
decarbonization
needs
increase.
C
So
taking
care
of
some
of
these
resourcing
needs
that
we're
seeing
today
by
the
retirements
of
a
lot
of
these
coal
assets
and
then
increasing
that
decarbonization
of
that
asset
over
over
time,
without
increasing
major
costs
on
these,
we
can
basically
install
these
units
today,
have
them
hydrogen
ready
for
for
the
future,
so
we're
seeing
massive
amount
on
the
on
the
energy
storage
side,
both
on
the
battery
energy
storage
side
and
on
the
on
the
hydrogen
industry
side.
We've
recently
announced
a
couple
of
large
scale:
battery
energy
storage
project
utility
scale.
C
These
are
you
know
this.
One
in
california
is
an
80
megawatt-hour
system.
These
two
projects
in
texas
are
200
megawatt-hour
systems,
so
large-scale
systems.
We
see
this
business
growing
exponentially
for
us
for
the
short
duration
storage,
but
we've
also
made
similar
announcements
on
the
hydrogen
side.
As
I
already
mentioned,
the
advanced
clean
energy
storage
project
in
intermountain
project
in
in
delta
utah,
but
also
on
the
east
coast.
C
So
massive
growth
on
the
energy
storage
side.
So,
specifically
to
the
inter
mountain
project
I
mentioned
we
have
the
award
for
these
two
gas
turbines.
These
will
be
the
first
advanced
class
gas
turbine
projects
that
designed
specifically
for
green
hydrogen.
We
call
them
advanced
class,
because
this
is
more
of
the
modern
fleet
of
gas
turbine
super
high
efficiency
combined
cycles
we're
looking
at
nominally
63
percent
combined
cycle
efficiency
on
these
units.
C
This
will
provide
840
megawatts
of
reliable
energy,
to
los
angeles
and
other
municipalities
in
california
and
utah,
and
when
it
comes
online
in
2035
it'll
be
capable
of
a
30
blend
of
of
hydrogen.
You
would
like
a
70
a
natural
gas
blend
and
then,
as
I
mentioned,
lgbt
or
into
mountain
power
agency,
will
look
to
decarbonize
that
unit
over
time
as
their
as
their
growth
as
their
decarbonization
targets
require
so
no
later
than
2045.
These
gas
turbines
will
be
operating
on
on
green
hydrogen.
C
One
interesting
thing
to
note
here
that
you
know
the
2045
dataset,
but
basically
regulatory,
the
gas
turbine
technology
itself,
we're
actually
validating
100
combustion
technology
today
in
our
gas
turbines,
so
by
the
2026
2027
time
frame,
we'll
have
that
gas
turbine
combustion
technology
capable
of
the
100
combustion
in
the
gas
turbine.
So
the
technology
is
advancing
extremely
quickly.
Yes,.
A
C
C
So,
basically,
if
we
include
the
infrastructure
today,
which
is
basically
larger
generator
enclosures,
yes,
sorry,
a
lot
larger
gas
turbine,
enclosures,
larger,
more
piping,
you
know
valves
are
capable
of
taking
the
hydrogen
because
the
hydrogen
is
a
you
know
it's
less
less
than
fuel,
so
the
so
you
need
larger
diameter
piping.
So
we're
not
talking
about
major
overhauls
in
both
existing
and
and
new
gas
turbine
technology.
You
know
we're
talking
about
a
fraction
of
the
cost
of
one
of
these
facilities
to
convert
to
to
to
green
hydrogen.
C
So
as
we
look
at
the
deployment
of
pre-hydrogen,
look
at
kind
of
the
the
horizon
for
that,
so
we're
in
the
period
of
our
development
phase.
So
you
know
mitsubishi
is
really
transforming
how
we
how
we
typically
operate.
We
typically
operate
as
just
an
equipment
supplier,
but
we're
out
trying
to
promote
these
projects
working
at
co-development.
As
I
mentioned,
the
entergy
joint
development
agreement
without
actively
seeking
projects
we're
out
looking
at
a
project
and
working
on
a
project
in
delta,
utah
right
now,
we're
actually
out
developing
that
we're.
C
Looking
at
scaling
up,
though
so
looking
at
similar
to
what
we're
looking
at
in
europe,
what
the
the
plan
is
to
look
at
kind
of
regional
hubs
for
hydrogen
and
then
slowly
interconnecting
those
regional
hubs
over
time
to
have
basically
a
hydrogen
backbone
and
eventually
from
2040
to
20,
you
know
2040
on
getting
to
a
carbon
zero.
So
the
interesting
thing
about
hydrogen.
You
know
we're
focused
on
the
power
sector.
Our
equipment
is
power
equipment,
but
it
really
unlocks
a
lot
of
other
verticals.
C
You
know
it
unlocks
transportation
with
fuel
cell
vehicles
and
unlocks
fertilizer
industry,
steel
industry,
some
of
these
industries
that
are
really
hard.
We
call
them
hard
to
decarbonize
industries
where
you
could
really
it's
it's
very
difficult
for
them
to
electrify
at
scale,
so
hydrogen
provides
them
with
medium
to
to
really
electrify
their
electrified
decarbonize
their
business
with
a
means
other
than
just
massive
decarbonizations.
C
So
the
interesting
thing
about
about
hydrogen
is
you
know,
as
we
scale
up
the
cost
of
hydrogen,
it
obviously
decreases.
So,
as
I
mentioned,
the
project
in
delta
utah
is
kind
of
a
unique
site
because
it's
it's
obviously
home
to
the
the
inter-mountain
poweredge.
You
see
coal
plant,
that's
being
shut
down,
but
it's
also
home
to
these
salt
domes
and
we
call
these
gulf
coast.
Styles,
quality,
salt
domes.
C
We
call
them
that,
because
on
the
gulf
states,
they've
been
storing
hydrogens
in
similar
geology
geo
geological
salt
caverns,
since
the
1980s,
so
they've
been
doing
that
safely.
This
is
these
are
refinery,
storing
hydrogen
use
in
these
salt
caverns,
but
very
similar
geologic
geological
formations,
and
we
only
see
this
in
the
west
really
in
the
in
this
delta
utah
site.
What
else
project
interesting
is
because
it's
centrally
located
within
the
wax,
so
we've
been
looking
to
take
electricity
from
the
east
from
wyoming
wind
from
from
the
north
and
also
from
from
the
south.
C
It's
dedicated
as
a
dedicated
dc
tie-in
right
into
southern
california,
and
so
it's
very
well
interconnected
to
allow
us
to
bring
renewables
in
for
large-scale,
elect
hydrogen
production
and
also
to
take
that
to
take
that
back
to
market
once
we
produce
the
the
hydrogen,
and
so
our
area
focus
is
along
the
I-15
corridor.
As
we
as
we
move
forward.
I
mentioned
the
project
in
view
montana.
This
project
will
be
looking
to
install
a
rather
short
hydrogen
pipeline.
Initially,
I
say
short
we're
looking
on
the
order
of
about
hundreds
of
of
a
hydrogen
pipeline.
C
So
when
we
look
at
with
some
of
these
standalone
projects,
we
look
at
pipelines
where
we
can
take
a
short,
a
shorter
segment
of
pipeline
and
pack
that
pipeline.
We
call
it
pipeline
packing
pack
that
pipeline
segment
with
with
hydrogen
and
then
utilize
that,
as
basically
your
storage
medium
and
what
that
does
is
allow
you
to
build
out
the
infrastructure
for
a
for
a
high
large
scale
hydrogen
system,
but
also
giving
you
the
initial,
the
initial
storage
capability
for
your
system.
C
So
we're
looking
ultimately
to
connect
that
into
our
delta
utah
site
because
for
the
delta
utah
site,
we
have
the
one
of
the
salt
caverns
in
the
delta
earth
side
is
equivalent
about
150,
000,
megawatt
hours
of
energy
storage
and
the
site
has
the
the
capability
for
over
100
of
these
of
these
salt
caverns.
So
we're
looking
at
almost
an
endless
supply
of
of
hydrogen
storage
potential,
green
hydrogen
storage
potential
at
that
site.
So,
looking
at
how
do
we
find?
How
do
we
develop
a
hydrogen
backbone
around
that?
C
So
one
of
the
things
that
mitsubishi
is
looking
at
as
we
as
we
developed
the
the
market
here
is
not
only
just
offering
the
gas
turbine
solution
but
being
basically
like
a
turnkey
supplier,
so
we're
looking.
We've
announced
this
adaptive
standard
flexibility
package
where
we're
looking
at
taking
electrolyzers
hydrogen
onsite
hydrogen
storage
and
then
gas
turbines
combining
them
together,
utilizing
our
our
technology,
our
ai,
that
we're
utilizing
for
for
our
gas
turbine
control
technology
and
offering
customers
with
a
a
turnkey
currency
solution.
C
We
have
over
three
and
a
half
million
operating
hours
of
hydrogen
experience
in
our
gas
turbine
fleet.
Today,
hydrogen
has
been
stored
safely
and
shipped
safely
and
dedicated
hydrogen
pipelines
since
the
1930s
large-scale
electrolysis
systems
have
been
in
place
since
the
1930s
and
we've
been
storing
hydrogen
at
scale
with
large-scale
solar
caverns
since
1980s.
So
we
don't
hear
much
about
this
only
because
it's
been
done
real
to
relatively
safely,
there's
been
no
major
incidents
on
hydrogen.
C
A
D
Yeah,
thank
you
yeah.
I
I
don't
have
really
a
question
peter,
but
I'm
I'm
a
lawmaker
and
that
I've
been
out
to
the
site,
intermountain
power
project,
it's
on
the
border
of
nevada
and
utah.
It's
in
utah
and
we've
always
laughed
that
that
you
know,
and
then
it
goes
out
on
a
dc
line
into
into
orange
county
los
angeles,
so
forth.
We've
always
laughed
the
fact
that
you
know
utah
cole
powers
disneyland,
so
that's
been
kind
of
fun
to
talk
about,
but
this
isn't
a
it.
D
It
really
is
an
amazing
project.
I've
been
to
the
salt
dome
site,
not
in
the
salt
domes
of
course,
but
in
the
site
and
had
multiple
briefings
about
it.
It
is,
it
is
really
amazing,
and
I,
the
one
thing
I
didn't
know
is
that
you
said
that
the
salt
dome
technology
has
been
used
for
years,
and
do
you
want
to
just
elaborate
on
that?
Just
just
maybe
a
little
more
for
me.
C
That's
correct
so
in
texas
the
refineries
have
been
storing
salt.
I
mean
storing
hydrogen
in
similar
salt
caverns
since
since
the
1980s
and
we're
talking
about
massive
scales
and
there's
also,
you
know
several
hundred
miles
of
dedicated
hydrogen
pipeline
from
refinery
to
refinery
in
texas.
So
this
is
once
again
this
is
you
know:
fossil
derived
hydrogen
smr
derived
hydrogen.
But
you
know
it's
a
hydrogen
molecule
and
we
don't
hear
anything
about
it
once
again,
because
it's
been
done
safely
and
very
effectively
over
time.
A
I
think
I
think
one
of
the
older
pumped
storage
projects
in
the
tva
area
actually
is
a
salt
cavern
as
well
can't
remember
the
name
of
the
project,
but
there's
lots
of
things
you
can
store
in
those
salt
caverns
any
further
questions.
Amy.
I
saw
you
that
you
illuminated
yourself.
Do
you
have
a
question
or
you
were
just
getting
ready
for
the
group
discussion?
Okay,
I
don't
see
any
more
hands
up.
A
So
let's
go
ahead
and
peter
looks
like
your
presentation's
down.
If
you
want
to
go
into
the
gallery
mode,
we
can
have
our
we'll
start.
Our
group
discussion
and
you
don't
need
to
turn
your
camera
on
if
you're
having
bandwidth
problems
in
particular,
please
go
ahead
and
turn
your
camera
off,
because
that
will
help
with
the
audio
portion.
A
So
so
we
for,
for
those
of
you
who
are
on
the
call
yesterday,
we
kind
of
there
there's
some
overlap
here
with
some
of
the
market
type
questions
about
new
business
models
and
so
forth,
but
I'm
just
going
to
try
to
to
tease
out
some
of
the
discussion
points
and
I
think
judd.
I
know.
Oh
there's
judd
is
still
on.
As
well,
you
know
and
judd
you
may
know
this,
because
I
know
your
portfolio
is
so
large
at
the
lab,
but
there
was
a
study
back.
A
A
Loss
issue
that
we
currently
have,
and-
and
so
where
I'm
going
with
this-
is
that
one
of
the
big
questions
is:
is
that
you
know,
can
you
run
an
energy
system
in
the
us
on
half
a
market
signal,
meaning
in
the
end
you
need
a
retail
market
to
work
with
the
wholesale
market
is
kind
of
the
question
of
you
know.
Is
there?
Is
there
a
value
in
the
energy
sector
to
go
to
7-eleven
versus
costco.
B
B
If
you're
really
saying
we
could
move
to
a
distributed
level
versus
the
line
losses
that
you
get
because
of
economy
of
scale
and
big
transmission
lines
and
the
infrastructure
that's
already
in
place
in
some
ways,
the
experiments
going
on
in
all
kinds
of
cities
are
trying
to
see
if
they
can
localize
distributed
generation
and
balance
things
within
their
own
within
city
blocks
or
a
smaller
level.
But
I
think
it's
still
an
experiment.
A
I
we
heard
yesterday
from
new
york.
You
know
where
new
york's,
probably
the
the
closest,
along
with
just
having
a
platform
that
can
see
those
power
flow
relationships
and
there's
a
lot
of
current
and
versus
horse
in
the
space
too
meaning
san,
diego
gas
and
electric
can
see
that
on
their
system
because
of
all
the
digitization
they've
done
around
the
wildfire
prevention.
Lawsuits
they've
been
responding
to
right,
so
so
they
can
actually
see
that
power
flow.
A
You
know
fairly
closely
at
that
level
a
lot
of
utilities,
even
if
you
created
the
market,
couldn't
couldn't
see
that.
So
I
I'm
sorry,
I'm
not
really
getting
with
a
question.
I'm
just
trying
to
tease
out.
You
know
what
what
policy
issues
should
state
and
local
policymakers
be
looking
at
when
they
want
to
find
you
know
what
can
they
do
to
meet
the
ambitious
goals
on
your
slide
and
and
and
I
guess
what
a
lot
of
us
are
struggling
with,
I
you
know
is
it
is
it?
Is
it?
A
A
D
So
my
question
really
is
not
so
much
related
to
that
is
we
of
course,
have
an
existing
natural
gas
pipeline
network?
Would?
Can
you
easily
convert
a
natural
gas
pipe
to
transmit
hydrogen
gas
so
that
the
generators
that
we
have
distributed
with
natural
gas
generators
could
could
simply
be
converted
over
to
hydrogen.
C
Yeah,
so
that's
not
not
a
very
simple
answer,
because
it
depends
on
the
date
of
installation
and
on
the
piping
materials.
Typically,
what
we're
seeing
in
the
marketplace
today
is
you
know
from
from
some
of
the
european
studies,
or
you
know,
even
socal
recently
announced
kind
of
some
pilot
projects
where
socalgas
is
looking
to
start
slowly
with
you
know
one
to
two
percent
in
the
pipeline,
we're
seeing
some
some
communities
in
europe
looking
at
you
know
up
to
10
15
in
the
pipeline,
but
keep
in
mind
even
one.
C
One
percent
in
the
pipeline
is
a
tremendous
amount
of
of
renewable
energy.
That's
you
know
going
to
the
form
of
decarbonization,
so
I
think
it's
a
good
start.
So
the
short
answer
is
you
know
it's
a
very
limited
percentage
at
this
time,
but
the
with
the
the
rnd
is
growing
very
quickly
in
socalgas
and
other
other
pipeline
companies
are
moving
very
quickly
to
to
address
that
blending
in
the
pipeline.
C
A
Any
other
comments
or
questions
hugh.
I
know
you
were
on
the
the
call
I
think
you
were
on
the
meeting
yesterday
and
steve.
I
can't
review
or
not
as
well,
but
you
know
when
you
look
at
the
two
days
of
presentations.
Are
there?
Are
there
areas
that
you
would
like
to
dig
down
deeper
into
to
understand
exactly?
What's
going
on.
D
C
I
addressed
that
a
bit
in
one
of
the
slides.
You
know
showing
how,
if
you
know
at
scale,
if
we
can
take
a
small
percentage
of
hydrogen,
you
know,
and
it's
because
I'm
talking
specific
of
hydrogen
now,
but
if
you're
taking
a
small
percentage
of
it
over
and
then
increase
it
over
time
as
the
cost
of
green
hydrogen
goes
down,
allows
you
to
decarbonize
that
asset
slowly
over
time,
but
it
allows
you
to
basically
maintain
the
operating
cost
of
that
facility.
B
Anyone,
well
maybe
I'll,
weigh
in
on
that,
because
I
especially
in
the
northwest
here
where
we
have
100
clean
electricity
targets
or
or
requirements.
I
see
a
lot
of
different
studies
that
the
various
utilities
are
performing
on.
On
that
whole
whole
question
of
over
20,
30
or
40
years.
What's
what's
the
cost
of
of
whichever
approach
is
being
taken,
so
I
I
think
some
of
those
studies
are
starting
to
show
up
out
there.
Sometimes
the
environmental
impact
isn't
built
into
them.
B
So
one
example,
I
know
of,
is
you
know
the
argument
about
overbuilding
renewables
versus
a
much
larger
capital
investment
in
small
modular
reactors.
That
argument
is
is
kind
of
going
back
and
forth.
I
think
the
nuclear
side
of
the
equation
would
say
if
you
look
over
the
life
of
those
small
modular
reactors,
you're
saving
billions
of
dollars
over
time.
B
You
know
if
you,
if
you
look
long
enough
over
30
or
40
years,
where
the
renewables-
and
I
think
this
is
really
how
most
electricity
projects
are-
are
built
to
capitalize
in
finances.
What's
the
what's
the
the
least
expensive
way
right
now
and
that's
why
certain
renewable
projects
or
combined
cycle
gas
turbine
are
are
winning
out,
so
I
agree,
I
think,
with
what
hugh
said.
It'd
be
great.
If
we
you
looked
at
the
life
cycle
cost,
but
I
think
the
purchasing
decisions
aren't
always
made
on
that.
A
Yeah
I'll
just
jump
into
that
if
I'm
wearing
a
couple
different
hats,
but
I
know
when,
when
back
in
2005,
washington
was
the
first
state
that
required
all
its
utilities
they
had
over.
You
know
any
significant
amount
of
customers
to
do
integrated
resource
planning,
but
was
really
focused
around
life
cycle
risk
and-
and
that's
where
you
started
seeing-
I
think
some
of
those
first
analysis
pick
up
is
they
had
to
start
looking
and
take
into
account
the
amount
of
carbon
risk.
A
The
other
thing
I'm
just
going
to
mention
is,
I
think,
most
of
the
really
revealing
work
in
that
space
is
being
done
in
some
of
the
grid,
interactive
building
studies
going
on
now.
You
know,
buildings
are
the
third
largest
emitter
of
carbon
and
and
worldwide.
It's
like
40
of
all
the
carbon
footprint
comes
from
buildings
worldwide.
When
you,
when
you
pick
up
the
construction
footprint
of
the
materials
that
go
into
buildings,
it
ends
up
being
over
50
of
the
world
inventory.
A
So
it's
important
to
to
pick
up
that
entire
spectrum,
if
you're
really
going
to
make
a
difference
in
some
of
these
policies
you're
looking
at
and
that
that
just
that
whole
construct
of
making
sure
you're
doing
that
life
cycle
risk
assessment
is
so
important
anyway.
I'll
stop
rambling
on
that.
But
I
think
those
are
three
really
good
areas
to
look:
is
irp
der
and
making
sure
you're
doing
that,
and
then
some
of
the
great
interactive
building
assessments
about
decarbonizing
buildings
or
some
good
analysis
of
that
going
on.
B
B
Quick
comment:
energy
storage,
specific!
You
know
you
could
look
at
a
energy
storage
device
and
say
how
many
times
will
it
charge
and
discharge
over
the
life
of
what
I
needed
to
do
and
and
base
your
life
cycle
cost
on
that,
and
there
are
newer
technologies
that
you
know
believe
they
will
last
longer
than
the
current
technology
and
so
on
a
life
cycle
basis.
They
are
a
better
value,
but
still
the
current
technology
is
what's
what's
purchased
because
it's
less.
A
You
know
as
a
as
a
standard
going
forward
and
I'll
pick
on
oakland,
just
because
they're
doing
it
this
week,
but
you
know
with
today's
laws,
rules
and
codes.
You
know:
you're
gonna
have
to
put
a
600
amp
panel
in
a
new
home
in
order
to
have
two
ev
chart,
two
av
charging
vehicles
and
an
induction
oven
as
an
example,
you
know
with
using
today's
standards,
and
so
you
know
I
know
for
us
we're
building
like
bluetooth
capabilities
into
fuse
boxes,
so
you
can
do
load
management
within
the
building.
A
You
know
if
it's
that
brownfield
cost
to
drag
new
pipes
through
buildings.
You
know
new
wires
through
buildings.
If
you
want
to
get
to
a
level
three
charger
in
your
home,
you
know
the
the
gauge
of
wire
to
do
that.
That
is
probably
not
realistic,
so
it's
really
going
to
be.
What's
the
non-wire
solution
in
the
home,
it's
probably
moving.
A
You
know
batteries
closer
to
demand
like
an
ev
charger
in
the
garage
and
and
then
you
know,
you
know
charge
that
battery
up
when
it's
not
going
to
be
used
so
that
when
you
want
to
rapid
charge,
you
can
use
it
without
having
to
destroy
your
home
to
do
it.
So
so
I
guess
where
I'm
going
is:
where
do
you
see
batteries
in
that
when
you
say
consumer
market,
I
don't
think
a
lot
of
people
understand
what
that
consumer
market
is
for
batteries.
When
you
referenced
in
your
presentation.
B
Yeah,
I
mean
there's
a
couple
things
buried
in
that,
but
first
of
all,
just
our
loads
in
our
homes
are
changing.
You
know
dramatically
over
the
last
20
years,
just
because
we're
plugging
a
lot
more
things
in
you
know,
and
it's
starting
to
become
a
significant
number,
so
I
think
you
will
see-
and
there
are
pushes
for
codes
and
standards,
that
from
an
energy
efficiency
point
of
view,
help
with
that.
B
You
know
to
continue
to
reduce
the
load,
demand
that
we're
all
going
to
have
on
the
electric
vehicle
side
on
on
where
you
plug
your
car.
In
you
know,
I
have.
I
have
my
personal
view
on
this.
One
we'll
see
if
it's
actually
right
at
some
point
in
the
future,
but
there's
something
like
a
186
000
gas
stations,
maybe
peter
would
know
in
in
the
us
and
if
we
all
went
to
electric
vehicles,
you
know
I
think
most
people
would
want
to
just
charge
wherever
they
happen
to
park
their
car.
B
You
know
during
the
day
and
the
data
shows
most
people,
don't
don't
drive
their
car
that
much
to
where
they
would
need
fast
charging
for
some.
You
know
for
80
or
90
percent
of
the
drive
cycles
that
they're
on
so
be
most
of
us
like
when
we
were
driving.
You
drive
15
miles
to
work.
You
could
plug
your
car
in
there,
but
most
people
could
drive
the
15
miles
home
and
be
just
fine
from
a
charge
basis
and
plug
into
their
garage.
B
It's
only
the
trips,
the
long
trips
that
you
start
to
have
to
have
an
infrastructure
of
rapid
charging.
So
you
know
you
know
I
lived
in
minnesota
for
a
while
and
it's
of
course
cold
in
the
winter,
and
we
would
plug
our
cars
in
all
over
the
place
just
to
keep
the
engine
warm.
So
I
you
know
I
I
I
don't
know.
I
view
a
world
where
we
will.
If
we
all
drive
electric
vehicles,
we
will
plug
it
in
wherever
we
happen
to
park.
Our
car,
commercial
buildings,
work
residences,
the
malls.
C
Yeah,
I
don't
have
to
study
handy
in
front
of
me,
but
if
we
you
know,
if
we
look
at
you
know
getting
up
to
these
high
decarbonization
levels
of
you
know,
80
90
decarbonization,
and
we
try
to
do
it
all
with
you
know:
electrify
everything
and
batteries
alone.
You
know
the
cost
will
be
extremely
prohibitive
of
doing
so.
D
D
C
B
Yeah,
I
would
second
that
people
are
re-exploring
that
option
it's
just
it's
a
it's
a
matter
of
scale
and
and
and
it's
built
into
a
lot
of
the
damn
river
system.
Already
it's
just.
How
do
you
expand
it
and
what
footprint
would
you
need
and
what's
the
environmental
impact
and
the
cost
of
the
process
to
get
through
that.
A
You
know
a
utility
is
going
to
be
hard-pressed
to
take
a
risk
past
seven
years
right
because
that's
the
window,
if
they're
kind
of
known
knowns
and
all
of
them
have
been
burned
so
bad
about
misguessing,
where
technology's
going
and
the
cost
of
things
that
there's
a
lot
of
reticence
to
to
for
them
to
go
and
do
that.
So
as
a
policy
maker.
B
B
A
Yep,
hey
we're
heading
towards
the
close
of
our
time.
I
don't
see
any
hands
up
in
mayor
cameron.
I
don't
want
to
cut
you
off
either.
Are
you
okay,
great,
hey,
melanie
horton's,
already
put
into
the
chat
box
the
the
survey
to
give
us
some
feedback
about
the
conversation
and
so
forth?
As
you
know,
that's
part
of
your
paying
it
forward
to
make
the
next
product
even
better.
A
A
I
think
amy
paul
I
may
have
stepped
away
for
a
few
minutes,
but
the
conversation
yesterday,
we
are
incorporating
into
that
new
business
models
to
deploy
those
technologies
that
were
talked
about
yesterday
and
hopefully
before
the
the
firm
holiday
season
coming
up
that
we're
gonna
get
more
details
about
how
we're
gonna
structure
that
time
allotment
for
the
live,
interactive,
r
d,
tour
and
then
also
the
discussion
on
new
business
models.
I
want
to
virtually
just
give
the
applause
here
to
our
speakers
judd.
A
A
Yeah
that
would
really
help
again.
If
we
only
get
like
one
or
two
back.
It
gets
really
hard
to
draw
any
significant
data
from
that.
Even
though
each
of
your
voices
are
100
important
to
us,
it
would
be
great
to
to
get
more
of
those
filled
out
and
back
in
so
again,
hey
everybody
have
a
great
holiday
season.
You
know
it's
a
really
weird
time
out
there,
but
just
stay
safe
be
well,
and
we
hope
that
whatever
bubble
you're
going
to
be
in
is
going
to
be
one.