Open Source Ecology OSE Apprenticeship, 9 Jul 2021

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From YouTube: Enterprise Webinar 2

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Some notes at :
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1VZCrueDIM5X3gJqP21AgZvKYQOQfjNjr0tBhuxdoT9w/edit#slide=id.gb328b2d63d_0_9

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A

Okay, so starting recording so we're going to continue the discussion on open enterprise, the enterprise seminar here- and we we start by saying: why are we here so collaborative design for a transparent and inclusive economy of abundance? That the enterprise session reflects that? So the initial idea idea behind it was what what is a project that we can collaborate on with with in terms of enterprise development, and the original idea is, of course, the cd ca home.

A

So I'd like to see if we can go that direction, we talked about the 3d printer as a lower brow, less advanced project. We can collaborate on, but I I would say that we think about it in a modular way think about what are the assets that are needed for an enterprise and start co-creating them, because that's the whole idea.

A

So I would, I would just propose we go right forward on the on the cdca home um as the whole project. It's something that that does require a lot of different assets, but I mean, if we're treated modularly, we can talk about okay. What do you need to to market or to produce a product? I mean you need a website. You need various enterprise development assets we have uh so we do have a development spreadsheet that we typically fill out for enterprise development, starting with your value proposition.

A

How do you go about it then economic analysis, all the kinds of things things that go into a business plan. How do you market your marketing copy your website sales production? All of that, so I don't know. Maybe we can gather around that. What do people think think about that? um Since we came here for the cd cajon might as well work on the cd cajon.

B

As the main yeah, what are the thoughts.

C

I'd say like it depends like: what's what are you expecting or the commit? First of all like a couple things like: what's the commitment like after the this apprenticeship ends, because you know we can all dedicate our time during, but after, if you want us to stay after them, that's a different conversation and then second is like okay. What's the business structure, how to manage ownership and responsibilities, especially this growth longer term.

A

Yeah all good questions, all good questions. Now, if we look at the mission of distributed enterprise, I think the safest way to go about. It is do that like assume that, because we don't have any of those things defined right, so is there anything we can go forward with at all.

A

Given those kinds of agreements are not clear, and I think the answer is yes and the answer is creating generic assets that anyone can plug in because we're modular so think about like we're. Designing modular houses devise a modular enterprise that somebody can take that run with it here, run with it anywhere else, but all of us need that all of us need those collaborative assets to make it happen. So because we don't have those questions and without those questions we couldn't really go forward.

A

But the only thing you can go forward on is we're developing an open core that we can draw from, but also some very explicit assets like okay, say, joshua or paul makes a website. Well, let's make it a cloneable website, something that you can put on wordpress or whatever uh easily replicated. So it's not some proprietary infrastructure, it's something that any one of us can replicate like if they they produce their own website.

A

uh Why not produce a website for everybody that we can use? So this is joshua home operation. This is margins or osc's cd home operation and then, as we actually get the product and fill those assets in, we can talk about further agreements, but initially I think it's about the assets. What do people think about that? Is it? Can we treat it like a modular construction set that I mean the way I look at it. In my mind, is all these things have to happen?

A

We don't have them it's in our interest, like okay talk about talking about incentive structures. What is our interest in that? What is the incentive that drives us all to do it, and I would venture to say that that is all those assets that we could run with, which we are developing already. It's like the product, we're developing right, um but then the more directly related items to business are things like your website.

A

Here's your product photo shoot, which you know we can maybe start with the first cd go home and should more product shoot on that, since that's getting looking better and better with with time all the different assets like this. So what do people think about.

A

That does that make sense. Does this kind of logic make sense, because I mean it makes perfect sense to me. It seems like imagine even like okay, not knowing what the commitment is going to be in the future like, ideally, the commitment would be well, we can succeed at and therefore we can actually run these these enterprises and that's that's something you want to start with as a as an outcome that we're aiming for, uh but whatever happens, even if people go their different directions like joshua was saying like.

A

Oh, why don't we all like do everything together? Well, we don't have to. We can create as much as each of us is willing to in a voluntary sense like it's um it's. This concept of, like marx, talks about alienation for compensation, no we're not doing that we're doing self-determination in this game and we're producing assets that are relevant and all of us can share, because if we had enough people doing that, then this would be the best enterprise in the world if everyone in that group was was open.

A

So the thing is here: we are open to that. That's that's the intent and then the next intent would be to well, let's attract more and more people to this and the remote collaborators and anyone else who wants to produce openly for the whole world.

A

I think that's the value of how we attract more and more people to accrete to this mass of goodness, so that becomes a pool that anyone can draw from it's a it's a non-scarce product, it's this enterprise idea which would improve over time. So so I don't think it gets scarce like oh well. What if we just solved housing already well? Well, then you just saved yourself half a million bucks over your lifetime move on to the next thing. You know move on to the next thing that makes life easy for everybody or make games.

A

Now, okay, we've got housing, we can do it dirt cheap. Now we need to open source telecoms and microchips, so we can make our maker.

D

Network and magma, because that stuff is out actually.

A

D

uh There's some developments with with opens well not open source but hardware where you can have your own communication network so far uh with magma and laura win and laura has the internet of things. Part of that so like.

A

These are hardware's or software.

D

Hardware and software.

B

D

Yeah people are making different hardware models to be routers, and so.

E

Yeah look into.

D

Building your own routers.

A

Yeah yeah, I mean there's no limit to what can be done and- and I think we have a chance to set an example like because nobody's really. I don't know any anything comparable to this, where people are saying we're doing distributive, open enterprise, because all the co-ops are proprietary. I mean I don't know of a single open co-op like mondragon, the most successful cooperative. It's all proprietary information products. Still, what are they so they're they're doing all kinds of products from appliances to seed?

A

I think they're, like all over the place, they're like a general, almost like a general store, but mondragon cooperatives in in spain. That is that's. That's, perhaps the most well-known one uh as a very successful cooperative. That's got a co-cooperative business structure, but I was never excited about that, because what about collaborative, cooperative and open source or collaborative or transparent, doesn't matter me doesn't meet our mission of what we do.

A

So a lot of people are excited about the co-ops, the social good stuff, but I mean I don't really believe you can have true social good without being collaborative open. I mean that's, that's our that's!.

D

What that's our prejudice, that's kind of the rule of thumb with um if you're starting a new enterprise, you just look at what competitors are out there and you read um whatever potential case studies. There are for any businesses that are similar, but osce is kind of.

F

D

Mean there's nothing, there's not really much! That's going to be out.

A

There yeah yeah, but that's great, you know we're filling a niche that I think in the future will be more common. But now it's not so common. You know all the relief efforts and everything like all these social good efforts that have proprietary products. It's somewhat of a contradiction, um but so so what do you guys? Think of just the concept?

A

The most modular enterprise concept.

C

And we're contributing assets to the pool, let's start with money, I'm.

A

Well, that's the natural assumption, we're not going to make something that doesn't allow us to survive. That's that's in there, so we have to get there right. So how do we make money? So so I'm thinking that if we throw things into the pot out of that comes the ability to generate money like like open cores, I guess comparable to open course. People can take that and and make money, but here develop it's. I think, we're more than open course we're open course, plus business development like we're, throwing that in the pot too.

B

um It better be the outcome or I quit I'm moving back to the city. If that's not the case, I mean.

A

We gotta make a living somehow right I mean I don't I'm not opposed to money, I'm not opposed to revenue or or economic power. No, we have to get a lot of economic power. Indeed,.

C

To make any change like so, the typical, like corporation might ask for some like royalty or subscription, but these are like adverse to the goals of distributed enterprise right. You know we don't want to charge other people to use uh our technology.

C

So then I think the question arises: okay, like how did how do we scale without leveraging other people if we can't leverage if we can't extract financial value scalable through that way like what that way, we can't scale financially financially that way, how do we? How can we scale financially.

A

You have to charge for something. So, while the resources like information are free, our time is not, if we're producing things, if we're harvesting something like soil, turning into block or harvesting or making lumber and making houses. That's that's a scarce resource. It's physical. We put our energy into it. We got to get paid for it, so um it boils down. To I mean the simple thing is: what are the numbers? What's the revenue model like.

C

You know we have all these ideas, it's like trading trading time for money unless it's like a salary, I don't know about the disney well.

D

That's the thing there has to be something of.

F

D

Exchange so it doesn't necessarily have to be money. I guess in some situations, but could.

A

Be in time, there's nine forms of capital look at the wiki nine forms of capital.

C

D

A

D

A

Right now, there's money that lubricates the world like yeah we can. We can create uh various blockchain based things that are based on physical realities too, like if we ever create money and it should be based. I think it should be based on physical stuff. That's because it's easiest to measure that way.

A

Otherwise everything is non-scarce.

G

Could you repeat that point about the money? uh I think it should be physically? I.

A

Like the idea of, uh if you look at osc bank wiki before you got a bank design here, no, it's it's a concept right. So so what is osc bank concept? Is you develop a facility like this and 10 000 worldwide that have an economy right? When you have an economy, you can create your own bank. You can coin your money. You can back it by the physical assets that you have on there.

C

Yeah, so we don't need money, we just need access to.

B

F

A

Yeah, that's correct and an easy way to get them is with more money or we can earn them or you know, settle, settle some yeah. I mean.

F

We need some capital somehow.

B

A

Could be land could be, it could be money, but we need capital, the things that money can buy yeah, but but that's the idea of um currency right now, like you said odundo that well bitcoin is kind of funny money because it's not backed by anything tangible. It's backed by an idea.

A

An idea idea, maybe is perhaps prone to manipulation, whereas if you back it by something abundant but but real like grain or gold or steel, or just the fact that you have an infrastructure, a documented infrastructure. So I'm saying that the open source panopticon where you have where you have actually transparency of what your production capacity is that to me like.

A

If I were to look at that there's another campus of this nature somewhere and I see their transparent documentation on their website pictures of their site, pictures of their infrastructure, and I know they have like open source tool chains, micro, factory, land resources there that they know how to tap, because machines are not important not enough. They you gotta, know how to use them or somebody has to use them.

A

It could be an ai or whatever, but you got to have a system where value is capable of being generated to meet basic needs like you need to eat and then have a house and probably drive a car or fly around or something um or have your computers.

A

uh But if I were to see that open documentation somewhere, I would say yeah I'll trade with you I'll give you my funny money for yours, I'll, give you the osc coin, and then you can send me some of your goodies and then, if you send me some of your monies I'll, send you some, because I also know it's good. We could have maybe like exchange rates or whatever, but it should be like it should be. Like a basic unit.

A

You know you can just define something. It's like pound of steel is a dollar a pound of tomatoes. Is a dollar a brick is about. You know, whatever.

D

So the currency is backed by instead of like arbitrary gold, somewhere, it's backed by whatever resources. The group of people in involved with osc and like the collective have so like.

E

If I have a bunch of grain, you have a bunch.

D

Of yeah and that you can estimate some value of that.

A

Yeah, but it should be integrated, like grain, is a specific example, that's kind of like from you know from long ago, it's like you've got grain. Well now you can have like a hundred different things. It could be a pool of different things, because the small micro factory can produce a lot of things, so it can produce a refrigerator and a cordless drill and all kinds of other things and a hammer.

A

You know like that: productive capacity or the capacity to produce natural to produce or process natural resources, that's really the capital, that's the important capital right and.

D

You're buying anywhere with the money, that's.

A

D

A

So we don't need money, we need the things that money can buy right. So you can like the resource-based economy concept. Is that oh yeah well you're kind of bypassing that money you're going straight to the resources and some people call that the collectivist dream.

C

What do you do in a.

B

Critical space.

C

You do experience based revenue, um so what I mean by that is say say we sell house, maybe maybe, instead of trying to make a profit on it. We have some stipulation that um you're required to like, um like allow access to a room for some amount of time to someone working on open source.

A

Could be it's it's an agreement or a contract yeah. I you know one way you can describe. This is a contract-based enterprise community, that's kind of like the um who says that kind of stuff, the free market people would call it that that's from that perspective, um but disagreements contracts are agreements that you agree. Okay, you give me this value. I give you this value, so it could be like that.

C

Because what I would want is like basically, an airbnb type network where, uh where you don't have to pay like fifty dollars a night, you know.

H

C

Incredibly, that would be incredibly valuable to me to be able to travel freely.

D

H

Like if I was getting an agreement.

D

With another community like who you respect, um you know, maybe not not again cooperative but.

A

Someone who's some.

D

Other, along with missions, campuses- and you know, someone contributed a lot to one campus. That would let them have the right to sort of like stay for a certain amount of time at other levels.

A

Yeah, absolutely absolutely if we will be friendly to each other. I mean why not uh we're, assuming that we probably haven't enough infrastructure here that okay, at that point, we're pretty much autonomous, sustainable we're pursuing self-determination, because we can have food and fuel in the car or whatever we do, and a computer and and shelter, and all that that's like.

D

It's not an issue, it doesn't have to be just being friendly. I would say that it's important to be like numerically rigorous and assign the value.

F

D

Sure which could be a market value, I'm.

B

F

B

D

Feel valued if they are doing a work exchange program. You know they know the exact value that they're getting and then other people you know can buy in you know I have friends who say like oh I'd like to visit you at osc. uh Did they charge tickets and I said like? No, would you like to buy a ticket to come, see, osc and they would and they're people who would come stay here for airbnb.

E

D

Do like maker tourism, I mean sure.

B

D

Not as big as other kinds of tourism but others yeah, there's science, tourism. There's people go to.

B

D

Bon jovi there's a market for everything, so yeah.

A

Absolutely and it's about understanding a value proposition and capturing its value, airbnb model. That's I mean we're kind of thinking about that, like some of the houses or if we build a new cd go home, that's perfect place for maybe airbnb or revenue from that or the the hacker tourism sure I mean that's how we do this. We kind of do that already in some way like, for example, people come for the summer x.

A

We are going to build a couple of cabins and we're charging people like 25 bucks, a night to stay in the cabin, because it's a private cabin as opposed to living here, all.

B

Of us want to get.

A

We'll keep our our private rooms and then build a couple of more cabins and stuff like that. But.

B

Renovating the.

F

A

There could be another thing, um but.

F

That's the general idea.

B

A

Is we're all collaborating to a pool like say the cdc home is a revenue model, and then we sprout one of our campuses elsewhere, because now we know how to make money to get the land for it and so forth. You know we gotta kind of exist in this economy until we transcend it, but.

F

It does it's not gonna. Take a lot of.

A

Money, it's like maybe a billion dollars total. You know it's a small fraction of what a big company makes. So I mean.

H

The numbers are quite tangible, but we have to get specific to.

A

To okay my view, it's like it's in our interest. I see the clear interest here that we do want to live freely and then therefore we want to collaborate on an enterprise that.

H

A

Through and that's that's, I think, a compelling reason to say: okay, let's throw some some resources into a pool, basically a pool of our work like all.

E

The different aspects.

A

Of the the enterprise that we can bring to the table and uh we go with that and that would work better like you know, if you had more than like 10 people here right, we had a hundred or a thousand, I mean you could probably come up with something I mean.

F

Where do you see like a thousand people.

A

Collaborating on an enterprise I mean you, don't. I think the potential.

F

Of something like.

A

That is huge where we could put in that one tenth of a percent, and we still got something that works. Perhaps you know so.

B

That's that's the idea.

I

Behind this concept of.

A

Collaborative enterprise, development.

I

G

Yeah, I'm just thinking that uh one of I'm just thinking back to some of the problems that open source hardware projects run into.

J

G

That uh one of the things we have to do is uh um if we're gonna sell a product, a physical product, it's got to be a niche product because I don't see how you get away from the problem of economies of scale because what's happened with other open source hardware projects, I think I mentioned this before- is how bigger companies pick up on the the project and take away the margin, and so, when we're thinking about the enterprise that we're wanting to work on, I mean that's. That's one thing that I feel like protects.

G

The open source uh aspect is um right. At least it protects. The open source business model is looking at these products, or at least looking at something that's customizable, um because then I can produce a certain kind of this product and somebody else can produce a certain kind, or maybe it's just best to be produced locally. Instead of um on a larger scale.

A

Do you think the cd go home would qualify for that product.

G

um I think it could. uh Might I mean I'm seeing headwinds with uh the cd go home, because right now I mean I'm curious. What is the price of uh materials with the price of lumber right now? um There's a uh there's a lot to get to. First, you have to replace some of the materials we have to like sure it could be a very affordable product. If um there's plastic lumber um we're not at that point yet, but.

J

G

Has a disadvantage.

A

Right now right, so we're still right.

G

But I mean there's also, uh that is, that is one of the things that's going to cut into the the margin, and it's also one of the things that um has kept a lot of people from building right now, there's also a shortage of buildable land in the metropolitan areas. um So I mean at the moment I just I'm thinking what is the uh I mean, I'm curious. Actually, what is the goal?

G

um Generally speaking of the uh seed equal home, I know you've said uh to solve housing, but I'm just thinking specifically. What does that mean? Does that mean uh reducing the cost of construction? Does it mean why.

A

For that, you clearly have to look at solving housing on a wiki. What does it say? So what is solving housing? Let's take a look at that.

A

um So that's the definition of solving housing take a look at this dock. There's an embedded dock in there start is the highest quality home and the high at the lowest possible cost. So let's, let's read that, what's that it's this is value proposition! That's like what do you got?

A

Here's my value proposition um so we're enabling anyone in the world built to build dignified housing at the lowest possible cost as unencumbered by lack of access to rapid learning materials, designs, building techniques, construction materials, machines for construction, etc, I.e availing open source designs for houses, associated construction machines, build techniques and machines for producing building materials, while creating a feedback loop that allows the ecosystem to learn and improve and creating an opportunity for house builders and job training to lift anyone anywhere out of poverty and place them on top on top of thriving, create lives worth living both in the first and fourth worlds, and to do this globally, with global input to identifying blocks and addressing them as a global community.

A

So different places might have different issues regarding housing and to create a movement entrepreneurs who work on solving housing starting now. Okay, together, we must identify issues, some of which we already know poverty, meaning some people never get the opportunity to get their own houses. They are preoccupied just with surviving in the us. It's a lot of nimby like in the west.

A

There's a lot of affordable housing gets canned, because that means ghetto, affordable housing means getting to city councils debt and that housing is expensive cost and that no sane builders build affordable housing because they can make more money, building more expensive housing speculation and financialization in the economic incentives encouraging spec builders.

A

That means builders who build a house then find a customer as opposed to work with a client up front which we want to do. I don't want to get into spec housing, because it's a different game, that's a game you can play, but I don't think the dynamics are as good. It's not about the customer.

A

It's about making money speculate so uh spec builders that treat land like a commodity as opposed to treating it as a case for regenerative development, disintegration of the profit process, making cost high, where the design guy does not build the house and doesn't does not design a house like the builder would like to build it and it's inefficient. So more than that, the engineer is not the designer the designer is not the builder. The builder is not the materials provider.

A

The builder is not the user, a fully disintegrated production chain that cannot result in closed loop production cycles, there's also the lack of skilled labor making house costs high page two lack of practice of best practice as the industry is not open source. How do you like that? We lack the practice of best practice because we do not share the best information central planning schemes where city councils county boards plan segregated communities, while they imbibe inclusivity in words, only lack of innovation, where light frame construction has not gained much improvement since the latter 19th century.

A

That's a that's a fact: uh lack of comprehensive digital open design where, in a digital age, builders typically don't extract boms from cad, but leave that to the builder, which is inefficient, financing costs, mortgages that can be paid back can be paid back and banks foreclose, though I'm not sure about that, because if you look at the long-term term cost of a mortgage a lot of times, the inflation is so high that it's like you're not paying much more than you started with. I don't know.

A

That's I looked at those numbers and I was like holy cow it's. I thought it was a huge issue, but if the inflation is bad, it's not a not a, not a bad issue issue, but then, of course, the entire economy is collapsing anyway. So.

D

You got high inflation, housing.

B

But you have like.

H

D

Of living in general, that will.

A

Finish you off yeah, so just to finish off the the issue, what we're trying to solve for so yeah. I mentioned that if, unless rates are as high as 10 or so for loans, you save money because, devaluing due to inflation, you is that's some true to truth, but that's just future generations paying for today's well-being.

A

Access to land is an issue. Land around jobs and education is expensive, so you can find plenty of cheap land not in desirable places. Urban deserts no trees are healthy. Food solution, land stewardship, land, trust, community, green space for recreation and growing resource sink houses, our resource sinks. Why not make each house productive energy water, food products which are micro, factory?

A

Here's where integrated landscaping, food aquaponic greenhouse system can make a difference as we recycle nutrients on a small scale and the garage scale micro factory that cannot so much produce but redesigned for cyclic materials cycles using common components. So that's kind of like that's why I think solving housing would be throw it all in there production stuff like that. I try to break that down into point by point.

A

um So there's more detail on that there um that's some of the things we know about housing, uh so I I don't agree like I don't know, you're saying: oh man, they're gonna, gobble us up numb and the distributed production is the part that I think they can't.

A

If you, ha if you operate at scale, you got diseconomies of scale. This is small, is beautiful by schumacher. uh You know that book. No, I know you got to read it. It's about things break down at a certain scale. I can't avoid it yeah. I do not believe that centralized production can compete anywhere close with distributed manufacturing.

A

I don't think so. Okay,.

G

We thought about this uh when I threw this idea to wes about open source software competing with.

G

Software from large software companies and what it would occur to me is that um one of the reasons why open source software was so successful is because you don't have to spend any money developing it. You can have a bunch of people who correct um work on it in their free time, and so what you end up? Having is a base of developers who form a team, that's comparable to what you find at some of those large companies yeah, and so it's not really an underdog story. You know it's uh it's something.

G

That's only natural, and yet I mean open software open source software isn't dominating everywhere. um There are still uh cases where uh bigger companies still dominate, and so it is a matter I mean it's not gonna apply in every market is the what I'm seeing.

A

Oh yeah, maybe maybe not, we know it- can apply to various markets.

H

A

Mean there might be ones that are more favorable to it, ones that are less.

G

Right and I'm just trying to find like what is the path of least resistance, what is it if we're yeah.

A

Yeah, like what is it like, can you name something better yeah I mean.

A

You said yourself, things that have old technology are easy to replace that don't change fast yeah housing is one of them. Yeah it's right for disruption.

A

So nailing down the concept of common pool, stone, soup, and so here's the other assumption in this work, and it's about the big hairy audacious goals about large problems, because you can get people to show up to large problems. The smaller it is, the less people are going to show up, so we can have for solving housing just about anybody can show up the smaller. It is like we thought first about this cordless drill thing, but man yeah, it's cool, but most people don't even use a drill. I guess so. This pool is much smaller.

A

The the stakes are high, but then you can. I think that the projects where the stakes are high, that's where open source can really produce spectacular results, because I think the problem is still about getting people to show up still haven't solved it really for hardware yeah.

A

We will have after we've got 1000 people in our apprenticeships. Not yet.

G

A

Not enough people, it's.

G

Really, the material cost, that's um keeping more people from contributing to open source size of the project.

A

Material costs they're real.

G

Whereas if, if I wanted to contribute to ubuntu, I just uh create an account on a website and start contributing yeah.

A

Yeah different costs, yeah.

D

But I I mean can still contribute by trying to make as more recommendations to the design.

A

Well, that's true, there's a large aspect of it. That is digital and you don't build it until you have the full design.

F

A

D

You make it accessible to like interface. Oh, you have to go and look at look at the design of freecad.

A

D

A

Game: what's this game could do it.

H

A

There's various tools which we can use to make this accessible.

A

So that's where the creativity has to come in and hard work to make it work like apple, got good at interface right. So this is about putting an interface that people can participate with and and the tools that are produced also have a good interface for people to interact with that's something could be developed collaboratively, so the prototyping part costs. But there's like I tried to mention the other day. I think I was saying like have that ratio of design to to build time really high, like 99 to one.

A

A

A

Yeah yeah, so you have to get really good at okay. How exactly make sure all the details are ironed out and then there's various automation things we can do.

A

Like the 3d printing, that's why I think that that could be very important for this.

G

3D printer, um you were mentioning yesterday some of the advantages of 3d printer uh relative to the other, the competitors.

A

Could you uh elaborate on that yeah there's two um off the top of my head: two things: one is the extruder which has got the shortest distance between the drive gear and the tip of the nozzle. So the problem statement with like for us. We want to print rubber, which is soft, the softer it is think about pushing a new noodle through because it's there's a little drive gear that drives the filament down.

A

It's melted and escapes the nozzle. Well, if it's soft enough, then it will crumple up on you. You can't push it anymore, so you need to keep the distance between the the drive gear and extruder nozzle to the minimum, and uh I described that at under universal gearless extruder.

A

um There's always the history and then there would ideally be.

B

A

Doesn't that yeah? That's that's one thing so, which means if rubber is one of the materials we play with like for tires, that's important, very important. uh So that is that's pretty good. We have the shortest that that distance is the shortest. I think, and we I don't have explicit data, because I don't have these other extruders, but I can tell you the other ones I use.

A

They cannot do anything like this, um like the titan arrow, uh because that distance is very small, just minimize it, then you get less clogs and you can free your clogs very easily if you, because it's transparent, you can literally see like where it enters and where it leaves and there's never never downtime. So I think that's a huge value proposition and then the second part is the heated bed which which right now we're using a a. What do you call it?

A

A halogen bulb uh it's in for so it's insulated, so it's more efficient and then we're using a bulb which is radiant heat, which means super quick, like typically, it takes much longer for the bed to heat up than the nozzle.

A

Here it's like we're already done with the nozzle, and the extruder is only like halfway to temperature. So it's really fast and you can appreciate it if you, if you have used some of these other other ones. So that's those are the two things and but the other things are just the scalability like nobody builds in a way that can be scaled modular scalable.

A

So those, I think, would be the the key aspects. Those three I'd say.

C

Would wall modules go with the 3d printer look the same as light framework.

A

Well, if you have the plastic panel on the outside, you can print it and have texture particular texture to it. You can color it whatever you would, uh if you put say sawdust into it, it will look like wood. It will actually have that texture and smell.

C

Are there any like form changes like do? We need the studs still.

A

Well, yeah, in that case we would redesign it. No, you probably want to redesign some things. I mean a lot of the stuff that we build. Right now is for structural reasons, so a lot of it might look the same, but some other things you could probably change around, or I mean you couldn't do something like instead of using studs, you just have a partial infill solid, like a foam panel.

C

Yeah I mean it.

A

B

C

Like we don't, we won't be here when, like paul mentioned this, like we won't be here when we do the 3d printer challenge so like. If we don't have the printer, we can't automate the ball module production and you know, but the time you do, the printer will be mostly gone.

A

Well, that might apply right now I mean if the time yeah, you can't develop something like that. Super quick unless you have super amount of resources, but they'll be available that you can build at that point for like say about 5k as opposed to 150k or 250k.

A

So I mean that's the only benefit you can get that someone has someone has to build it. You know.

D

It would still be around for building that part, but it would be, you know, need the focus of the apprenticeship, so I don't think we could be like building a house. At the same time, it's working on a 3d printer yeah. I would love to be part of the 3d printer, that can you know shred plastic or melt plastic and then print and.

A

Yeah we will. We are going to build that large printer while we're here. The question is: how robust is going to be we're going to have a thing that works more or less and then is it production grade? You know because everything worked out about it. That's that's the difference so continue developing that until it's production grade.

C

You mean that you mean the heat right now.

A

Yeah, it has to be heated because otherwise you can't print anything with it like not like these, so gotta have to have it. If we're gonna build those chambers.

A

Well, it's it's about level of development, as I was talking about this morning from a concept to something that's partially detailed level of development. It's robustness, we can't, I mean you we're talking literally like cheapest at our scale. It's probably like a quarter million. I did not see any printer, that's that large. So it's it's bigger and more ambitious than anything else. That's going to take time because things are scalable, but there's tricks to have how much you can scale and what things you have to provide for.

A

It's not like it's development like think about programming. Maybe you're gonna have to work out all the bugs. You know, like you build the first code, that's gonna be our first cut. You know version one uh when we build it, so it's gonna take a lot of time. uh Just many iterations, like all the bugs, have to be ironed out.

D

Yeah I see this.

A

D

Many apprenticeships to yeah refine each design, yeah.

B

We would be lucky.

D

To get the first iteration of it from this apprenticeship, which I look forward to.

A

We can we, and nobody even has the very small heated chamber- that's a big deal right there, because the cheapest printers for that are, like you know about the ten thousand point, ten thousand dollar point.

A

I mean that in itself do a small one like you know, smaller than that size and it's ten thousand dollars um so yeah, but.

B

D

B

D

Well, I was gonna say to do both the hero x and the large 3d printer like. If we have a first iteration, we could release that as part of the base starter kit for hero x.

A

Exactly it's challenged.

D

You can fork this design, it's a first generation. You know this is our we're like uh leveling the playing field in some sense. Yes,.

B

D

Keep leveling it. You know the next. Well, actually, that's a good! That's a good point. um Are we going to keep refining the 3d printer throughout hero x? This airwax lasts for.

A

We make it how long, however long we want to okay, what what we think is a reasonable, reasonable time.

D

So would it be reasonable to say that a good outcome of parallax is with the wider community? We make a second iteration of the large scale, 3d printer, that's capable of printing a wall panel for plastic yeah um and then that's worth giving the you know cheap american dk prize to someone who's been making yeah.

A

We we have to define the specifications, you say you have to print like.

G

Matt can't hear anybody because there's no microphones on over there.

D

A

That's true, oh yeah, if you guys want to turn on.

F

A

On the microphone there somewhere.

A

um It's a continuum: it's like the assumptions there, I'm just throwing it out there and I'm gonna work hard, do what I can but, as I said, I have shed the cross already right. That's that's my message here. Like I'm, not gonna, I want to do it all. I can't do it all. It's going to be a community effort, it's going to be a collaborative effort, so we open ourselves to be vulnerable. We relate release all that we have and we see many people to stand on our shoulders.

A

Now the timing is you know how long is it going to take to create a new civilization or a new principle? The open source economy which which I I see as as where companies are typically as a general rule, collaborating on products by drawing from a common pool, it's a different. It's it's like a different, it's like from mars or something so from some extraterrestrial system operating system. Maybe one exists out there somewhere, because we can't see what's out there.

A

Maybe we should find that, um but it's like so foreign that people start thinking what like what katarina mentioned. People start thinking it's a law of nature that we compete like that. That pans like patents, their law of nature, that's what that's the critique that yokai benkler he's one of these scholars on open source.

A

uh He says that people think patents are a law of nature. It's a complete human figment. It's a human fiction.

D

Yeah, it's invalidated by the human, even like the human thought process of that.

A

We support it. The only thing that makes it alive is because everyone believes it's it's real it's. uh This is the matrix swallow. A whole packet of red tablets come to, factory farm will heal you tomorrow.

G

That will definitely get some recruits.

D

Yeah, um but so um let's see so, I think you all were talking about distribution of enterprise when I walked out earlier. So how do you? How do you get people? How do you sell that to people.

B

D

Do you sell it to people, obviously starting your own businesses is important, but then how can you lead people to most.

A

People are not entrepreneurs right, so you have to say here's products that are better faster, cheaper, stronger kind of deal. So what is that.

G

A

The house we can get you a house, lower cost, half the price of what you'll find anywhere else. That's enough percent of lower than anything else is enough. If we, if we meet acceptance,.

C

But we're not selling houses right now right now, no one! No one can buy a house well.

A

I mean like an email merchant.

C

Where you sell.

A

Yeah we're looking for a client.

C

B

To build somebody.

F

Yeah yeah plus land.

A

And the utility connection costs which they would pay for.

C

So we can give me 50 g's one or two houses, yeah.

A

C

We can't sell 20 houses.

A

Well, not until everyone finds out about it and a person says wow. I got a house, that's half the cost of anything else and it's good. It that's marketing! That's word of mouth and it's growth of the business. I mean right now. Of course, we don't have any traction.

A

So that's something that's developed over time and there's marketing. There's assets like marketing like the videos or maybe like people, play your game, and then people say we make it known in the game that your game is marvelous.

C

They can you can buy this if I create a funnel yep there's, there's no there's no end to the funnel it. Just we have a manufacturer.

D

That's the thing like you have the selling the business which is like selling the products and then you're trying to sell the movement as well. You know getting people on board, getting them to contribute game and getting them to understand why this is important and taking them out away from that mindset that we were just talking about.

A

Yeah, but I mean that's, why we're here to develop it and um yeah like the product like pending, simply optimization of what we have just learning to build the effective build. I mean we're still ironing out some details like, but those are not huge details like we don't have a design. It's like we're, just refining. So what we have right now is the kind of stuff that builders sell all the time. They have less refinement that we have and they sell it all the time.

A

So we can do it, but we'd be just like any other builder which may be maybe good or maybe hard living. I mean builders typically have a pretty good living. They make good money. um We could do at least that, but I mean we'd have to work on it full time. Our goal is a little different. It's like we're going to be so good that it doesn't take us all the time we can do it part-time and we can bootstrap other cross-subsidize effectively cross-subsidize other worthwhile activity.

G

Yeah, um that's a good point and that's what I was thinking earlier today is: if we had um a page with a where you can add things to a cart and, for example, some of the things that we've already made like the the 3d printer and the.

E

G

Press then um we'll get more. I mean.

B

G

Increase revenue and.

A

So that's exactly what I'm saying: that's that's a web page! That's that's a funnel! That's an asset that if we make it modular so once again, I'm calling for modular assets that we put put into the stone soup to make an enterprise the enterprise stone soup.

A

um So the nice website good photo shoot like videos of the house popping up and stuff like that, all that you can probably capture some of that during these next few months right, but if we make those assets modular, that's worth your time because you're helping yourself we're going to feed you some other assets. So that's the that's the value proposition for us as developers we're shortening the development time. For that each I mean that's! I'm like I want this myself. I I know how huge that is that it's not even funny right.

A

So that's why I'm laid back like a dead fly and trying to get people to collaborate.

A

I definitely I'm excited about it, but I know that I mean being in this for some time. I appreciate how much effort it is.

A

I've been through a lot of this stuff, so uh I know that uh the trick now is getting uh a credible story out there and kind of like this trigger snowball effect. That's gonna happen pretty soon I mean we're close we're very close. I mean.

A

I'd like to I'd like to think that we're going to double every every year from now on, that's I think we can do that double.

D

A

Double every year, double.

D

What but that's the.

A

You know the revenue.

A

um Well, no resources that come in sales sales, so that means products, seed homes double as in our revenue, say it's 200k this year, maybe 400k next year.

A

uh So that means in 10 years we're at a billion right. Yeah, that's how exponential growth works. I think we're there.

A

I'm saying myself every one of us all of us we're collaboratively developing that so we can spawn uh as soon as we've got a working entity that this thing's gonna take off. I mean you kind of. I think it really needs to show one it's a working model and then that's how I that's my mental model about it. That's how I see it, but.

D

I think the story has to change from I mean you want us to start businesses for ourselves using you know, osc model and technology, so that when we create a common core of assets, we're creating it. You know for ourselves for businesses that we want to start as opposed to helping osc with with their business with your business. So when you say we want to double every year and you know reach a billion. Is that total of, like all of our sales, from all companies that are always.

A

I'd say I'd, say: yeah I'd, say it's uh talking collectively like we, because it's not gonna, be me right. It's not just this operation. It's the assumption here is that everyone can replicate it. So it could be people here or people who just do it in the wild completely just take our plans and run with it.

K

A

So once once a really good, well-defined business is like say, we publish a lot on the enterprise manual idea was to publish an enterprise manual for the cdca home. That could be a huge thing right there. We can all of a sudden, be like a bunch of these get started all over the world. That's that's possible. I.

C

Think we need to actually have profit profitable enterprising, like I feel like I'm not qualified to make an enterprise manual until I've created a business that is profitable.

A

We're not, but we can contribute to it, the pieces that make it up, because it's made up of little pieces. That's the idea of modular breakdown, so you have enough of those little pieces and then it actually starts to work has to be a lot of those pieces. There's a lot that goes to it like right now, the last decade we just just did the prototype development.

A

Yesterday we came into the word customer development. It's clear that we need business development, a lot of assets. So what I'm calling for once again what I started this meeting with was we have to throw a bunch of these little pebbles into the stone soup once it's at a certain point, it becomes really tasty and everyone can can eat from it yeah. Well, you know the stone soup metaphor right.

A

You know what I'm referring to.

C

Nobody reminds me jojo still.

A

I don't know that it's probably some video game. No, what I don't know what you're talking about, but I don't know I'm with anybody.

G

Maybe we're all just talking.

A

To ourselves, but the fact is whatever comes out of these gates, we have a higher chance of survival. We all work together.

B

And that's the stone soup.

D

So is it like first, like us, we're here, we, you know we've kind of committed ourselves to being a part of the osce model and movement and business. But how do you get someone else on like position, formal type of thing they email you like? Are there.

B

D

Yeah things that people may want to contribute that you can kind of generalize and then like hey, we want research and development. So you study your designs and you contribute or we need people that are, you know going to be builders and handy people when you come onto projects.

A

So everything I mean it's it's everything I mean, but as far as the scalability of it, uh I think we need people coming in in a serious way, which means at this point starting enterprise or buying the products like. If we have the the house, then the supporters are all the people that buy it and fund the the further development.

D

Right and there.

A

So we're wrapping that back into the enterprise.

D

A

Become members.

D

Of the community.

K

B

D

People that say they want to join and they figure out some.

A

D

With you to contribute.

A

Could be all kinds of ways and that's that's called onboarding there uh there's a get involved page on the wiki. I mean we only have so many things: okay, buy our printers. Take the apprenticeship subscribe to the workshops you know come to our stuff and then whatever else, whatever any of us here create.

A

The whole point is just that that gets that that's part of a feedback loop where you're building on something, as opposed to it's just like random, it's a binding concept or economic time, binding concept, actually building we're contributing to that as opposed to just okay. This is some random enterprise that I have and I'm not sharing it with anybody.

A

I am actually putting back resources that make everybody's life easier, so that that's the theory. The theory is by sharing openly the best knowledge like we got some of it, some best knowledge here, and we share that openly to make it easier for everybody.

A

So that's that's the simple principle, because if there was a lot of people that were doing that, man think about it, wouldn't that be pretty great by getting all these product designs available.

A

Yeah I mean economy shifts to open source, to distribute to distributive.

D

People that's coming into this core like hey. This is what I've done this month, and this is what I have for the next month.

A

Well, yeah, but technically speaking, documented in in uh in an organized way like the wiki development templates that kind of stuff where people can find your stuff right. So there has to be some common understanding about where everything is, according to best.

A

C

Should we be um as like entrepreneurs should we be trying to hire? People is that is that the model we should have like.

B

C

Forum for profit corporation hire people to manufacture design, open source hardware.

A

Yeah I mean hire or train.

D

Books require you to have a board of directors as well easily. That was one of the reasons why that did not help develops, because that can just be a single member. Of course you have to find or have people.

A

The only trick to hiring people, of course, is that you're going to have to have some revenue coming in right. First, exactly so, there's one thing at a time or you can get a load of money from an external source and try to see if you can make it before you burn out like venture capital, but here it's yeah the product. So if we have that product yeah, you can hire people because you're going to need people, you need to manage your team to build it for you.

A

You know once you learn it, you, your skill is better at okay. Let me get some people that that I can show how to do this. To multiply my effort, that's how you can scale automate hire, set up an organization that does that so you're you're sitting in your own personal, open source, panopticon.

G

Yeah at this point, I guess the revenue model is teaching people and um trying to get them to join the movement. um I think we have to think in terms of uh uh sales a little bit and start thinking about how you increase the conversion rate.

C

G

Yeah yeah, and that is true yeah I feel like there are some things that we can do uh some little things we can do. We've already talked about the website. I think we should have an audio mixer on this table. We shouldn't, have you know all these microphones. There should be one audio input and that would do a lot for the audio quality and the quality of the video that we're putting out um and just generally yeah putting out high quality videos that that would go a long.

C

D

All the finer marketing.

G

Yeah, you gonna, do it sure I've already been shopping for audio mixers? We can I've. I brought uh what four or five microphones high quality microphones we can just. I just need the auto mixer and we can get the ball rolling so yeah. Let's do it.

A

By marking cells we we could use more people signing up for the workshops. It's like nobody's signing up, I'm not pushing I'm too busy. I mean man, um but that's.

D

One, that's that's the thing. That's right, just put it out there.

A

There's a workshop, you know we got a whole load of events coming up and there's I don't know: we've got like 10 people signed up or something um we could use. 20 30 40, you know, um that's that's a big thing. I mean our product. Is this edutainment or immersive experience experience economy? We are in an experienced economy and uh we could do a lot of effort to push that forward and market it. So it's marketing well.

C

I think this was like the scalability right like how how do we, how do we financialize open source hardware in a scalable way, because airbnb can make money by charging um people who you know charging some fee on people who stay out, or mainly it's like a business by empowering other businesses, and I still think, like open source, has a problem here, because we're giving it away for free.

A

Yeah, but the same thing applies to empowering other businesses that could be our service that we're generating revenue for so, if you frame it that way, then that would be training more entrepreneurs to with a proven model. Like a mcdonald's, cookie cutter thing, here's how you build a house and make a living out of it and actually do good things and be socially conscious.

A

I think that's the service we're after at the end of the day, because we're really an education, education, production organization, kind of hybrid, but that's that's the equivalent, isn't it or the kind of service you're talking about.

C

I I think, maybe so so, let's follow that train like okay, if but so, if the money is, if the profit is distributed,.

A

Distributed enterprise means the agents that want to take it. They can it's like the creator controls their creation kind of a thing. That's the merit, that's the kind of basic governance we have like. Ideally, don't ask me to pay you I'm giving you the knowledge to do it, empower you and you can actually make more money because anytime somebody works for somebody else. They only get a part of their worth. That's how enterprise works.

A

So I would like to see more entrepreneurs now some people- oh that's a responsibility, so some people might want to say nah, I'm just going to take less than I'm worth, I'm going to be an employee and I'm fine with that. A lot of people are fine with that. A lot of people love that most of the world loves that right now.

A

Well, they don't yeah.

B

They don't necessarily love it, but they do it.

A

Yeah so they're, ultimately responsible for that yeah.

C

We can argue about that people start most. Businesses fail.

A

Yeah because our failures yeah, because there's not nothing.

C

They don't have the conversation that to keep trying yeah.

A

A lot of people.

C

Just don't have the safety net, that's why.

A

So yeah, but that's we're trying to create something like that: the open source safety net. I mean that's, that's the idea here and yeah. It is hard because of the way that the economy works. It's very competitive.

A

It's still this uh fight or flight thing. That's where we live. That's the world. We live in right.

H

So what I'd like to see out of this is us actually starting an enterprise from here.

F

H

uh Osc as our base yep sure and making the money which will allow us to stay longer, yeah I mean, if we're actually.

H

A

Then we can buy food and stick around pay. Our energy bills, yeah.

D

A

Get those solar panels yet.

D

If you don't have them yet or.

A

D

F

D

A bubble missile.

A

Yeah, well, that's exactly right, yeah! So, let's start.

A

It wait wait a minute what business yeah.

C

Where are we going to start, you.

A

Mean like reality, wait a minute share or.

C

We all create our own businesses and collaborate here to forward well.

H

I was thinking well.

A

To collaborate you have to go to a common core, you can't really create your own business. It has, or if you're, creating your own business. It has to feed a lot into the course, so we're actually collaborating, because that's just our mission collaborative design.

J

D

A

You do make sure it's collaborative design, collaborative open. That's.

D

What I thought like I mean, obviously everyone has their own interests, but then it's it's like, like a star network like there's kind of a center point between a group of nodes and everyone.

I

D

Their own individual note around.

B

Yeah that yeah.

H

I was actually thinking that we'd all just start because who here has actually started? The business has the experience running business. So if we all work together on one business, yeah.

C

H

Experience I mean their customers get the money coming in and then we can all branch out once we you know once you have the the experience and the what is it and the finance the capital to start somewhere else.

A

So is that so what happens so timing wise, there's december 22nd? So when are we going to do it right after.

H

What much you say can you repeat what they said.

A

Matt says: repeat: okay, ken what ken said: why don't we start a business here that we're actually all running, so we can take some capital and share that and and start our own enterprises elsewhere.

H

A

Get the experience because a lot of us don't have experience in running a real business.

C

A

Successful or scalable business, uh something that's scaling.

A

That's that's what ken said.

G

D

That's the thing like the the tiger, like you were saying, I guess it's. I guess it's good for a reality check just to you know you're here working right now, but then, when.

F

December comes.

D

Around like how? How do you continue on? How do you.

E

D

B

I

How do you maintain.

D

C

Yeah exactly yeah.

D

A

That's right we're developing, so ideally the situation would be that the momentum has gotten so far that the startup phase is then easy, like okay, a month or a few months, you're actually going in the field or maybe like we decide hey, we got a few. Actually a few house orders we out of the crash course the builder crash course we got a bunch of orders because people like it say: oh, this is nice and then some people give us checks or something. Then we can work it first.

D

So you're working on press as well too right like how do you? How do you get in front of maybe mass media to talk about this and just talk like you've already.

H

Talked about your experiences, there's.

D

Other things around, but more recent development.

A

How do we talk about it to the media.

D

Or how do we get in front of them to to talk about it? You know, does anyone have the access to well.

A

I I have access, for example, to a media pr guy from ted that they help us with launches.

F

Now, there's a.

A

Little prerequisite to that for a launch. You also have to have a product right.

F

G

Some minor details details details.

A

Right right, but the point is we we're? You know we have. um I have good connections all over the place. The thing is like product people who take it on. So I think the biggest ingredient is people who are trained. Who who now have the skills to take it on like, say, wes, you want to go out and can join us. You can actually have enough skill that you're at building a house taking that revenue from it stuff, like that.

A

um That's the idea, the people, the agents who are doing it, because the and the development to get to that sufficient level of development that it can actually uh that stone soup is actually bearing bearing fruit, yeah.

D

So I guess that's the thing: people just want to be able to have the resources. They need to sustain themselves that that's it, and if- and we talked about that before in the beginning, if building houses and having clients in the beginning is how we do it and that's that's fine, then the development can continue. The research can continue on other products and other people to continue developing their own enterprises further. You know in a way.

A

Where but collaboratively yeah right.

D

A

Always feeding back so where they're, committed, yeah and then exchange yeah at that point, exchange happens the contracts to the agreements exchange of value for value. That's what we're talking about.

A

C

So I think one of the unsolved issues here is um like incentives to to individuals right because communism kind of fails, because uh it doesn't matter how much effort people.

H

Get individuals.

C

Put forth, and so one thing that's kind of I feel missing here is and especially like, like okay, if we each create our own businesses. Well, that's fine, but if we share the business then maybe the incentive structures aren't there for us to perform our best work.

A

Yeah, I mean we're kind of talking theoretically about okay say that we start the business like we have to say: okay, what we gotta reify with more detail like okay, when is it so we're gonna be very busy till end of september like so, are we going to work on starting that and what are we going to have at that time? So we have to like really reify it with more details, but the incentive structure has to be there like the way I understand incentive structure right now is that we're we're collaborating on an enterprise.

A

That's going to be really good, so we're motivated that way, but how much incentive does that provide like? Does that provide enough incentive to you or to everybody? Here I mean to me absolutely like all these things are getting further involved, so I know like for osc. We can tap this. I want to build a village like a functional community. That's like a university campus with everything, from research and development to production, to nature to agriculture and all that that's incentive for me.

A

So someone has to, I think someone has to understand this more holistic incentive structure or otherwise we have to get into specific agreements like well. You guys agreed to come here to co-develop, so supposedly you found some incentive there to that. It you say: oh that's worth it, I'm gonna, invest in it. It's an investment of your time and energy to develop something just like for me. It's an investment of my time to develop what I think is moving forward. All the technology that I can use by all means.

A

I want to use it, but also anyone else can use it. So I feel that's a it's a fair incentive, it's an incentive that can attract many people, because many people want that product.

D

Having a cloister of people in us, you know in a particular area, and they, if they're, all more or less dedicated to the same causes, would would be something that I would want to work toward myself. Personally um yeah I mean that's like you, you feed yourself. You have to come up with ways to do business outside of that, but you have to land in the space to to do that. Not just try to go back home and work from where you are and you're far away.

D

So it's you know it just gets more complex after that yeah.

A

Yeah yeah uh for me, it's like whatever we do has to generate like. I want to see it where we're so productive that we can pretty much snap up a new piece of land. I mentioned the thousand acre facilities like whether it's in the desert or good area. I mean that's, that's where that's that's my. Where my eyes are: it's like you're, building a village somewhere you're building all that infrastructure, and then people will will come.

D

Offering people a newer way of life yeah life without, like obviously on jobbing and yeah, more leisure, but also the increased responsibility of having to provide for each other in the community, because that's the only way it's going to work, yeah.

A

I look at it as like the metaphor that people understand you get trained like in college, but out of this college tuition, you also get land resources, the whole capital infrastructure, but you have to get trained to use it. That's the thing, because otherwise, that infrastructure is useless.

A

If you don't know how to use it, so the the new college for me is gonna, be like one I wish I could take is yeah something like that where you plug yourself into a place that can allow you, self-determination like land security, like land rights and then the whole infrastructure for thriving, that's kind of the model I have so what we're building here like.

A

I want to see that happen, because basically, now we're plucking people out of their jobs, yeah and uh giving them meaning, because that that's that's the value proposition like convert the world to to a world of meaning, not people just trying to survive, and uh so I like to be the largest unemployer in the world.

A

It's my personal ambition.

A

No, I think that's a valuable thing. I I I became unemployed like you, know, un-jobbed kind of deal, that's a tall order for people who are just trying to make it through, but.

D

And they see all the problems mainly rather than the solutions just like how am I going to money? First of all, how am I going to.

A

Eat am I going to.

D

Do x, y and z, but yeah.

B

D

Not familiar with, but that can, if you can package it up and explain to people how it working and showing something, then you know it would be doable.

B

A

Matt, do you have any feedback.

A

As a psychologist,.

G

He said he can't hear.

F

But matt, can you hear us hear.

K

A

What's going on there, uh matt can't hear me he's not listening. I.

L

Can I can hear you merchant, but I can't hear others. This is the.

F

This is far worse for.

L

Me, for me, at least than jitsi, was.

B

G

I'm not um nope yeah.

L

D

There's like a.

F

L

Like it constantly pauses in between everyone speaking and it's just it's bizarre, but uh but repeat what you thought I might.

A

L

A

No I'm just asking if you have feedback on the ruminations that you're hearing here.

A

Ruminations of yeah we're kind of exploring territory like I would hope. The goal would be that we create the stone soup of assets that are started to whatever. Whatever, however far they get, I mean we always want to think that we're impatient and anything that can become a product should- and you know we can take it to market, but I mean take some building time.

A

uh Whatever progress is documented and time bound, then that's progress, that's good, and we come back to it, whether here or elsewhere, and it's that much closer to to reality to to a sustainable model.

A

So we're kind of talking about a lot of stuff here, but I mean it boils down to revenue models like what are they do? We have the product and so forth uh in terms of yeah.

L

Yeah- and I I I've been thinking about um there's this uh there's a local nonprofit, that's trying to like they've, been partnering with cornell, trying to identify like affordable housing options or like their project, is, is making land accessible um to uh to people in this case, particularly bypass farmers, um who so they have a small parcel of land. They can farm and also build a small, affordable home on that land and then the farmers could they.

E

L

In kind of a community of kind of homes, like this on kind of you know connecting parcels, and so I feel like if we find someone who's like that, like an organization is already trying to kind of, he wants to.

F

Be building multiple homes.

L

And and really focus on, affordability would be willing to think outside the box if we could just kind of pick up some momentum with those sorts of things or you even you know, have to have humanity, but but they they also might have more kind of constraints than like this other organization, um but I just like the idea of partnering with them to kind of continue, honing and refining our methods to build momentum to have product. You know you know examples that we can point to, um and I just think that would help.

L

I don't know if that's speaking exactly to to the question, but um uh but I I certainly see value in in having like for me my biggest question you know constantly comes back to am I going to be able to. You know do this by myself.

L

You know I mean you know when when I go back home after the september build um you know, I know I won't be by myself and that you guys will still be around virtually but um but yeah, but but if we can really make it so that people can do this themselves, I think that that's huge in terms of enabling different revenue.

A

Kind of models yeah at this point it's getting the skill sets developing the capacity and then yeah uh thing. That's interesting to me about organization, so the incentive structures for why does a certain organization partner with us? What do we give them? Would they give us?

A

Are we simply getting a sale of a house at the 100k price point, or is it something different? Are they providing land, for example, so that that's a lower cost thing? I mean? What is that, so we, I think, part of the keys this gets into marketing now and business development sides.

A

But what exactly is that instruct incentive structure and like the dynamics, the strategy behind that? That's we got something they want. We want something they have like identifying that that's that's kind of.

D

A business development thing 100k or some kind of mix of value that could be money and something else.

A

Yeah right now it could be, they have a lot. They have a bunch of people that we can go out there and it's fast, maybe I mean there's different revenue models. One could be the workshop model, which I don't think is that scalable, because you can only run so many of them, but there could be a revenue model where we as skilled entrepreneurs.

A

We can take 24 people anywhere like office literally off the street or say there's a captive audience somewhere. It could be training, you know uh whatever. That is um how do we make it work like creating viable scenarios where we can really take off with what we what we do once again, that builds upon the core, which we don't haven't, refined to the point that we need yet that we're working on it. So it's not it's not like hopeless or anything like that. It's.

A

This is like I'm really asking this in the framework of how we're going to take over the world with this really so.

J

A

How fast, but right now we're not there yet, obviously, and but as we go forward, we just open source that so anyone has access so we're literally like leveling the field for everybody right.

L

A

And one thing I was the first free.

F

A

Which doesn't exist? Yeah.

L

I was thinking about this earlier today I was on a I was on call actually would have done for me today, because they're building a home here and then part of me wanted to bring it up. But then I was, but I didn't really know like what we would be proposing. You know like what is the relationship?

L

uh I I think you know they're, probably paying like 200 grand, for you know a house that uh you know a three bedroom house- that's probably comparable in size to what we're talking about. So I'm sure they'd love that, but so yeah. So is it just that we're building with them? um One thing is to the extent that having more trained builders can.

H

E

L

Able to then kind of do these swarm builds that could be one kind of incentive for partnering, particularly with um like have that for manny or this other group. That's really trying to serve underprivileged groups like I can see like, for example, if we're talking about farmers who, whose kind of work is kind of um tied.

G

To weather and.

L

Cyclical you know if, if these builds really are kind of part time things like I could see, you know training, you know them to help build their own. How oh and then, having kind of a group of people that are available that could be a real benefit to us in our ability to you know, build homes, kind of quickly and efficiently. So maybe that's worthwhile itself, plus there's some additional kind of kind of revenue.

I

That we generate in the process.

A

Yeah, it comes down to- I guess, maybe even like customer prototyping or like how do you vet that out? What are the actual? What is that relationship that works like we need to find out? Okay, what do they need? What do we have and so forth?

A

Like all that, and then, if it's okay so say they do have say 200k and we can do it at 100k, then the math is very simple right and then, if that's the case, uh what's standing in the way of that, then start looking at those reasons and and seeing if that's something that's structural or that's like. Oh, they just operate that way. We can't really break through that their operating model.

A

uh It might be that I don't know like maybe there's bank loans involved and there's certain stipulations. So it's all about track. You know it's really that situation once again for the product uh for the product sale or for the the relationship to work.

A

That's that's all you know we're like talking about this, like not knowing we're kind of like fumbling in the dark. Now, there's probably people that could be here that are listening to this like say, we post this on you on youtube, which we are and then somebody feeds back hey. I actually understand this. Here's what's going on and here's how you you do this, which is how I feel about the meeting on tuesday with the people in kansas city. I felt like okay. I understand this. This is how it works.

A

Here's how you can get in so the person I met jesse. They actually want to visit monday. So he wants to come down monday to check us out and um see where we, where we go from there from umkc, so yeah yeah. That kind of thing- I that's the part I I think, is really worth open sourcing for everybody to to level the playing field so yeah.

A

L

uh One thing that was brought up yesterday regarding doing like kind of like interviews with potential customers and stuff. I think I think that would be great like like we could put together some lists of questions um and and there's a particular way to ask good questions, and you know I can't put that I'm sure brian uh has experience with that, and and we could develop kind of this list and then all of us could kind of go out and just talk to people.

L

I'd love to talk to the habitat people here, just to get a sense, for you know.

L

This other group, I think that would be really fruitful for us.

B

A

I'm looking up the so an enterprise template that we do have like. So how do we track this and keep keep order or actually keep building upon this information, so um an enterprise template, so we have one set up for the go home.

A

Let's see, can I share my screen on this, so you can take a look at it. Yeah screen share sure.

A

uh Screenshot tells me to go, live yeah sure. Can you can you see it and this one.

I

A

um So that one.

A

You guys can see it okay, so this is the development of the of the product below that is development of the enterprise. So I'd like to see, if we can start using this or whatever is missing there, I mean there may be some bad things that don't fit or like some more relevant things. So what is our unique value proposition for a specific thing?

A

We want to do product strategy, cost structure, business plan, critical path, economic benefit and then there's production planning, operations, manual, training and management facility, design, supply chain development, actual production and quality control. Then the marketing is product assets, marketing strategy, marketing plan product web page, then sales and support. So what's our sales strategy? How do we support customers?

A

How do we ship open source everything store? I like to put that one in that's like the idea of collaboratively developed products that people just feed into according to an infrastructure like this, here's the well first, you have to start with a product. You know business needs a product. Typically, we develop that and then also continue on to the enterprise level. For that, the idea there is like a wiki page: you've got the product.

A

You've got production engineering like 3d printed, here's parts, here's everything where imagine like having an ebay store or like an amazon store, but you got products that are open source collaboratively developed and a lot of people can sell that. That's that's the kind of idea of everything open source everything store, I'm not sure how exactly it fits in this template, but I threw it in there. Improvement is marketing and sales data.

A

Let's analyze, that, let's track it customer feedback continuing improvement, so any product has to get better or kind of fades out, perhaps and then enterprise future work. So those are some of the assets for for enterprise, but things like like the website that has product website where's that product web page yeah, I mean that's something that could be completely modular embedded even on a wiki. You know we set up our people, we train them, do as simple as even a well formatted, wiki page. This is your storefront with a buy button.

A

You know that's kind of how I would see this modular infrastructure for different products happening.

A

I think that's something we can probably get people around, but given that hardware takes tons of development, we need some open products, which of which there are very few, maybe like the 3d printer would qualify. Maybe the brick press, the house and those are solid, like very far developed along the product release line but yeah. So, if we're developing like say mad you're you're getting the feedback, so it's like really where, where is that at, is that somewhere in uh enterprise template?

A

Well, I think, by talking to people, you come up with a clear, unique value proposition like they want this and we uniquely satisfy it. You know that can inform our product strategy, so maybe we start by the feedback. We start developing these points.

A

um So, as you see there like, there's a bit of development on each each of those like unique value, proposition and so forth for the house and everything else kind of recorded some of it and that that of course gets updated with any new insights what product assets? What do we have got a bunch of there's no links here so there's nothing there, but you know what we need to to communicate the asset, the product things like that, um something like a click funnels site or whatever, like once.

A

We have the products like we can do that for 3d printers and brick presses right now we can scale up the brick production like we can build. Probably a couple a week I mean that we can for the big machines we can scale up like the big workshop-based machines tractor, brick press 3d printers. We can scale that up to to either a few or dozens per week, not even scale. We can do that right now.

A

Like my experience with it is, I can do about four printers that was the tested printer, so probably more like eight or twelve kits per day. It's not bad when you get the production line going on that, it's it's good, so it's possible right.

A

L

F

Can't tell if someone else is talking is someone.

L

Else talking russian.

A

No we've gotten: okay, deep.

L

Sign but then I I just wanted to offer, I I'd like to um start like, uh maybe I'll just add it to right there we're looking, you know, add like number seven or something well, how about maybe.

A

Well, for that, you'd have to that's a template, so if I added that that's embedded, so let's do this, tell you what you look at my screen, so so we're all going to do the cd go home enterprise development? Maybe um well! If we want to start one so say product, so we've got product: oh this product, ecology, so product one for product one! We can set up a development template by doing uh subs um enterprise, it's called enterprise and then product. One.

A

So here we just see the first product development template. uh That's that's how we can do it now. You can, uh if you wanna, edit, that that existing template yeah you go ahead. That's on a wiki! You can go ahead as well. If you want to add, you think, there's like a critical item missing and then we can pull that back into the overall template.

A

If um that seems fitting, what item were you thinking so you're? Looking at uh yeah, I mean, after all, customer prototyping. Maybe we should have that, as so you're thinking item number after six product um customer prototyping, because the product needs customers, it's more like the marketing part, almost right well and.

L

Since the since, since since the the customers and their needs in many ways, should be driving the product design itself, you kind of want it earlier in the process. So yeah.

A

At the product stage, like maybe that's customer prototyping- is item number well. Yes,.

E

Even maybe number one.

A

Maybe number one because it's like you don't know what unique value proposition is until you talk to some people really right. Well, we can. We can do that. We can go.

A

So under product we can add this extra line that says not unique value proposition, but customer prototyping.

A

And so that would be seed home too customer prototyping and that's got a zero. So that should add a uh what's the number oh yeah scopro that'll be oh wait. I did that. So, let's make that zero and put it before the one.

A

um If they don't mess that up there, I think we're at.

A

I think right. There.

A

Scope row: oh what what I do.

A

A

Oh, I think I deleted this.

A

My unique value proposition.

A

So we got our customer prototyping. There item number zero, so maybe get rid of this space here and there.

B

We did it, we did it. People.

A

Okay um yeah, so I mean I was hoping that these sessions might be where we actually, so you know we kind of bounced idea around quite a bit. Why are we here? We advance this idea now, maybe we can actually yeah. I mean use these sessions. What do you guys think about using these sessions we're actually creating some of these these um these items? So maybe it's.

A

Yeah adding to these assets, so it fits like, I think, about immediately about marketing, because we've got events that are coming up and we need more people product assets. Developing I mean that's that's things like video. We've got a little bit of that I mean it could be all kinds of assets which could be simple email or like social media posts or whatever, um but all that kind of stuff should be prepared for us like, so that we, when we're running that enterprise, it's like we've got that someone thought about the words to use.

A

How do you? How do you do it and stuff like that um marketing plan? I mean it's empty right now.

A

Things like that product web page is kind of empty we'd like to have a.

C

A

A dedicated website would be good. Do.

C

You think we could earn money like just trying to just try and earn money.

A

Well from people sign up for the workshops, that's revenue.

C

C

Can we try and earn money.

A

Unfortunately, that's not what your agreement said.

A

In our agreement I said explicitly: if we make any money, we got to cover costs, because so let's talk about that, so uh we've got so right. Now the the budget is like in a budget. If we do all the things we said it's like 450 k, out of which the 100k was gonna, go for the the incentive challenge and that came from a 200k loan. We've got like 100k about 105k revenue right now, but we got to cover all these costs if we're going to do it.

A

So for that reason, I I put it very explicitly like if we end up building stuff here goes to cover costs because we've got hopefully we're not broke by the end of the year is the thing we've got those costs to cover. If that does happen, um we've got some savings in the form of bitcoin, like whatever that, but that's like that's like.

F

Whatever it can do so, whatever it can do.

A

um You know, but we'll have to I mean I'm looking at it look people we got to get customers, we got to develop this thing and we need customers at the end of the day. You know, there's no question about like we can. I can sweat, like I kind of think about it. This way, like let's burn through all that, like you know, we've got um like in the bitcoin right now. It's like 200k right. So it's like seven.

A

Yeah we'll go to some millions later, but maybe not right. Now. Timing might be bad, but I'm really focused on. Let's use the resources, let's burn it, we've gotta, you know, we've got a certain flow. Let's keep the momentum up, keep talking to people like bnim and uh the people we met in kansas city. We we gotta just keep I mean yeah. The revenue has to come and the only way you do it is by effective production.

A

It's very simple: you got a product, you have effective production, so if one of us develops it, we all have it. That's the beauty, we're not worried about market size here everything we're selecting is by design large, so that allows us to collaborate. We're kind of being safe by it and focus focusing on like essential needs that we're meeting. So you know we're very close to real economics, we're not like creating some funny money product or whatever some fake stuff. Like fake economy.

A

You know, like the financialization stuff, we're working on real things, so it's very tangible and can meet our needs. So we gotta get go through it, go through that diligence and make it happen.

A

That's the idea now as far as financial incentives for that, like what do you got to gain from that? If osu gets that money? Well, maybe we'll live another year.

F

A

What you'll get and we're we're as small as we are, we are the cutting edge in these techniques, so we should live. I think it's a good.

F

A

If we do live but of course we'll live, I mean we can live on shoestring budgets here, because we've got land and if I had to I'll just plant some sweet potatoes and eat my nuts.

D

Basically, what you gotta do to make sure that it.

A

F

That's what I've done.

A

That's and that's great um so, which allows me to be not for sale, which is great.

D

You've looked into uh kansas city as far as like non-profits and maybe different contracts. That would be available for um like improvement for like.

F

Homeless and other.

D

Like I think I saw the interview on youtube.

B

D

A

That was one of many organizations. I don't think that particularly went forward anywhere, like I think you heard some of the blocks there.

F

A

uh But there is the meeting we had on. Tuesdays was extremely ripe with all kinds of connections, and it seems like, as I mentioned before, it's like we've got: okay, there's vets connections, affordable housing, mayors, cutting edge research center, sbrs dtr grants all of that. The university creating apprenticeships job training programs, whereas the job training, like the only caveat on that, is job training for the new economy like I don't want to be producing more like people that go into this economy, so for a job training.

A

It's build, brick presses, build printers, build cdca homes, don't go back into the competitive economy, working for some proprietary company or peddling proprietary products. Let's start creating the new one, so that's only caveat for job training, which then we say, okay, people from kansas, city, okay or vets. Is that part of your mission? Can that work there? I think it can, because you know, take back upon a greenhouse or the house.

A

We can start a training program for vets, I'd like to pursue that discussion on monday when jesse comes here, because he is a veteran himself he's a business developer. He is the director of research for that. It's called a center for institute missouri institute for defense and energy.

J

Well, I'm visiting with ted vinegar at foxhole homes. He's target is veterans.

E

J

um He said that if there's programs available yeah, that's where you could help veterans and then they would would pay for veteran training and then the veterans.

J

um His goal was to to onboard veterans that have a a check that they get so that they have their own means of survival.

A

I looked into that and we'd have to sign up for that program, so it means filling out some paperwork. That discussion came from a vet that contacted me saying: hey. I want to go for the summer. There's this program. I can get money if you've got the certification. We don't that's the thing. If we had that, then we got money coming in by federal government paying for veterans. That's one one of many things that we could do what's required to do. That.

J

To get the certification.

A

There's curriculum you have to show this is the curriculum and everything else and a bunch of paperwork. We've got that we gotta fill out the paperwork. uh I don't know how long that process takes. Ideally, we would find a person. We find a person who's. You said, okay, so I think you answered it. Can he help us do that? What is I don't want to go into this blindly, like? Let's just learn from somebody, who's done it and.

J

Coachella himself.

A

J

He he worked for the air force as a counselor right.

B

J

Inside his counseling.

A

Yeah and there's centers what I found there's a lot of centers at bases where they train the veterans, forge for future employment. All that stuff and we'd be a little bit out of their stuff, because we're not gonna put people in normal jobs right. We're.

J

A

Unjob them, but I think a lot of entrepreneurial vets are out there. I think a lot of them. You know they've seen some terror in their life there and war zones and stuff. So there a lot I found a lot of them are pretty pretty open to innovation.

A

Yeah I mean we've had a few here, that of that nature and they're pretty good. They got hands-on skills, they they're survivors.

A

So it's about getting specific yeah. This is just one one of many things we can do.

A

So anyone watching this help us get that certification, so we can take veteran money to train veterans so that yeah that's part of the kind of stuff the thread that's going through with brian uh and umkc. It's like he had to set up a formal set up a formal apprenticeship program.

A

What exactly does that take so we just someone has to do that like I'm, not gonna do that right now, maybe if we find there's a strong case for that lately like if I could see, okay, we've got tons like hundreds of veterans that actually are eligible and interested. I think a lot of them would be, but if we've got dozens or hundreds of them yellow I mean let's spend a few days working this out. So it's a low risk investment of your time that that could, if we were pretty sure that works.

A

If we know it works, let's just do it. Okay, there's there's a enterprise branch of osce right there. You could accept full-time staff and develop a program around that, don't mind that let's get some revenue from that snap up. Another parcel keep growing, replicate that to other facilities. If you guys are around. Let's do the same thing. That's that's the collaborative development I'm talking about. We share that stuff.

D

A

D

The same categories like grant, writing and grant research yeah.

A

Yeah, that's a full-time job and and there's a uh the system is, is designed to protect itself. So uh the thing about I looked into that and there's a pretty foul play over there, and that is uh there's no such thing as it's called unethical to be an on on contingency grant writer.

A

Do you understand that on consistency grant writer, meaning you get paid when you succeed? In other words, that's called unethical in the world of fundraising, uh but I think that's really foul. I pointed this out to some friends at ted and they said yeah, that's actually pretty. They never noticed it. I talked to some older people there, but the idea is, you can make more money only if you have money.

A

That's that's a rigged game right.

A

So the the obvious thing is: okay, you get paid when you succeed as a grand rider you get a cut of that, but poor organizations that don't have money they should still be able to to to be in a game, but it's rigged in the united states at least I'm not sure how it is in other countries, it's probably the same, uh but in this country that doesn't work for for people without capital, so in other words the nonprofit sector is enriching itself and perhaps drifting from mission, because it's not letting the you know, capitalist people rise up to capital.

A

I know that that deal. That's why I was never really interested in all these like this. This grant writing stuff, but uh like the sbr that might be different, like maybe it's a little different. That's a very specific thing: sbr's dtr, we'll see we'll see how that works, but I could be hopeful about that. There might be some good stuff, I mean you know, take the brick press bam, get that to production or whatever, there's. Actually, the jesse knows the guy in the military.

A

That actually does the brick press program where they do reconstruction with brick presses. I mean that's clear: okay, just connect me to connect us and they make a big purchase over order of brick press.

J

um I talked to a guy that has used brick presses in the honduras music manual.

J

He said that when we get to the to manufacturing the brick press and- and maybe we experiment with the bricks he wants to come and see which one the our our brick press, he.

F

J

He's mennonite.

F

J

They have mission work that they leave yeah.

A

Well, I mean we're building one and it's november.

J

A

Not not only then we're planning to build one in a week or two a couple of weeks right after the the seat home gets done. We're going to build.

J

That so we can.

A

Build a low-cost workshop, so if all of us have that access yeah, it's low-cost building, that might be a.

J

Market is, if that was successful in one place and not saying honduras, and maybe the mennonite organization would come yeah, that's right would purchase them and put them in different yeah.

F

J

F

And belize and.

J

Wherever you know, because they have large communities and they are non-profits trying to help people so yep.

A

J

A

All these things are potential yeah.

E

A

I mean that's: we've got something like someone, someone wants to jump on and just start producing in marketing I mean that's. I think that would be very successful right now, like maybe ken you're gonna, do it.

H

Yeah, as um uh I think it would be helpful for international people, they can get visas or, for instance, in my case I could get a visa.

F

H

A

Yeah work, visas, capacity, grant that would open us up to more people. That would definitely be another item.

A

B

A

Work visas so that you have to have a special status. um We don't have that status. We have tax exempt status, we do qualify as a as a tax-exempt research organization or that, like that's, actually sttr, requires that we qualify for that by the definition in the book.

A

A

So to wrap up here so uh kind of wrapping up here. um What are conclusions from this fine day.

A

What do we know? So? What do we want to do with the enterprise sessions?

A

I was hoping that we actually get down and generate assets that are going to be important for everyone in the future.

A

That's a worthwhile thing to do so. You know we're the goal. The sessions was to say. Okay, this is how it works for, during the summer of extreme design, build the idea there was to really go into the nitty-gritty, like we, we have we're constantly evolving information. I mean there is some business planning information like product strategy cost I mean cost structure. Is the critical one? It's like.

A

What is your price point, because this is how much it costs you that's going to determine what you can sell for and how much money you make if you get that one wrong you're going to go out of business so.

J

So maybe you could have a bill of materials that yeah there's a link to a spreadsheet.

A

Yeah, we have a not a collated bill materials, but all the things we purchased are in a big spreadsheet, but yeah, that's like so part of it is training ourselves to understand those numbers.

A

Actually I don't have an exact answer, for I have an answer for january wood prices and actually, I think, they're coming down to pretty much a january level. So that's when we bought a lot of the wood and right now. Actually I looked at the numbers right now. What we bought, what we bung is called um um it's forty three thousand dollars what we bought. So it's actually under budget like we were looking at fifty, so we're still within budget uh under budget so and maybe it's uh at current prices might be like.

A

Actually I'm not, I didn't crunch the numbers completely, but that's that's the enterprise side here. This is the kind of stuff we want to generate to make it easy for anybody to understand. These numbers understand how you can capture value in this entire value chain.

A

Does that allow us to simply say, like you know, josh um we're wrapping up here? Can I call you.

K

A

Details on those numbers are critical like, for example, there's josh, josh and caleb, who came to the party okay. So now, we've got the full designs and everything and just hire them to do it and pay them x dollars for okay, give me all the panels right and then you could possibly sell them. So you can be hiring people and even could be like a total job job creator on job creator.

A

Here we're just farming out all these kits and then we have to make sure we have the quality control, make sure you have those protocols that when they give that to you, you're getting product that works, that you don't have to fix right. I think that that's, if you think about managing a certain product, the kit could be a definite big part. Maybe we take that kit and we actually build with it, but we get some additional people to prepare it for us or we do it in our own workshop.

A

But the infrastructure required is not too intensive, like somebody can just do it and then stash them and bring it on a trailer. uh So there's all kinds of ways, but you got to understand your cost structure. What that allows in terms of the kind of business plan and product strategy that you have um so there's on a product strategy. I mean just take a look at all. I mean I wrote a bunch of stuff on that um all kinds of stuff. I kind of like write.

A

The latest thought then, maybe next month I had another, so I kept kept writing it down with a lot of latest on top.

A

One of the ideas was like a training package or a support package where we give you the kit and you give us a service fee and we we coach you through the entire build, I mean, there's all kinds of stuff you can do even.

D

The industry standards like like when we were talking about just the random things like the screw every foot and you know tolerances and all that stuff that people might want to.

F

D

A

I think right now the the real weak point is uh we gotta just get finished with this thing, take the photo shoot, that's like when we can say hey people. This is what it looks like now because with the cdc home, one yeah, okay, that's that's like teaser, because we're not going to build that exact product, and now we've got this and once we have that uh the quicker we get that the more signups and interest. That's that's when I think the it's gonna start, we're gonna start picking up where we're gonna be like.

A

Okay, okay, tell me more tell me more and people visiting this and stuff like that. That's going to be our tour model.

A

Home, so uh what do you guys think so? Should we spend the times in the evenings actually developing assets around that and it could be uh when it's the cdc home it's like okay building is one but very closely related. It's okay, we're out, certainly like exploring options like the thing. The thing I think is useful with the product strategy. It's like. Okay, there's we're just all out we're in a shop. I mean that's that's hard. That's like the hardest. Most intense you go or you know going out to the field and finding customers.

A

That's like the big thing, turnkey build! That's like the most ambitious, but before that there's kits or if we do that, then we focus on actually training people so that as soon as possible, I train my four man to do that for me, so I'm not going out there and then I'm using my skills of having more insight, maybe training more people to do it. So there's all kinds of ways we can go about it and it's about getting very specific, getting very specific on what what a particular working workable path could be.

A

That's that's the kind of business development, that's actual valuable stuff. I mean there's plain marketing, stuff um marketing strategies and all that, but like the product around the product strategy, there's so much diversity and possibility there that I think it's worthwhile to explore all the options and actually do the due diligence on them like what is the comparison of industry standards exactly you know, what can we charge?

A

How long do we need to build? What's the maximum allow time for to make our business model work? Do we focus on automation like right now? Maybe the thing is man, let's just get to that 3d printing printer, the panel printer, because that's like the real, then it's like. Okay, now we're set.

D

So look at the timeline like the house is, you know almost kitted out like it has the modules and everything.

B

D

F

A

F

I'd like to stand up yeah.

A

Yeah, like a week, uh I'd like to see if we can possibly do that, I wasn't hoping initially like 14 days to the build, but we're doing a lot of learning in a process. So when we're spending a lot of time on other things,.

F

A

Of refining things so but yeah, ideally um in the seven like next seven days, we can, um I think I feel the block is like having all the instructions they're going, quite slow. Getting all the accurate cad worked out. uh It's it's a little slower than I thought it would go, but yeah we're learning it's I mean we got to do this this. You know the learnings are okay. It takes some time. This is data. It's like okay.

A

It takes so much to train people to understand it inside out and we're still in the development, so we're doing both development and learning at the same time, which makes it longer.

A

But um the goal is to finish as fast as we can right now, so we can say: okay, this product, that's that's the that's where we're at and we can also. I mean. I think this these sessions can add a lot. It's like.

A

Okay, let's explore different avenues like maybe we push the ram dirt, 3d printed forms or whatever um not directly related to what we're doing right now that maybe a little later, but maybe say, ah maybe we explore that, but something as close to the product as possible so that it's definitely like any of the assets that are definitely we're going to use. We should be working on that and making making it transparent and developing it, putting some energy into it.

M

Can I is there someone.

B

Talking yeah, I can't tell no go ahead.

M

um I don't know if it's too late uh doesn't mean to mention this, but I haven't idea.

E

Just thinking about the.

L

Psychological side, um I'm wondering if um one of the things we need to do is to um like we.

E

L

Experience this general process firsthand in person in a small amount of time, I'm wondering if we could create like um like a.

M

Studio, you know, I feel.

L

Like a lot of people nowadays, you know they're working at home, and so they create.

M

The studio out.

L

Back that doesn't have a million any appliances. You know.

M

Just has maybe a place for a extension cord to go through.

F

And some lighting or something very basic, could we just.

M

If we like, made like I'm picturing, you know inviting you know, have that.

H

Folks out- and you know, having our you.

M

Know the panels the already.

H

L

Wall modules already set up and just being like look here, help us finish. This wall modules get that experience and now in the next.

M

Couple hours we're just going to put this thing.

L

Together- and there like this, is you know, and this is how it would be different in.

F

The house with the appliances but.

L

M

Something like that be as easy as.

A

I'm thinking it would be, and I think it would be as easy as you're thinking it, because the modules once you have them, uh they go up fast, yeah yeah. I think it is that's a good idea. Katrina was mentioning about smaller units. Yeah I mean this is you're, referring to some things along the experience economy line, yeah.

F

I mean there's.

A

uh What do you see as the actual outcome of that like? What's the goal of that? Is that marketing like market these things or or this is.

H

Actually, where you're.

A

Building them for for for kidding or sales yeah.

M

I mean two things. uh You know most people don't.

L

Have you know a spare lot on hand to build a house to test it out, but you know people who own their land do have. You know often have space where they could put up a studio in the back yeah, so that could be both a business. You know that could be. You know relatively easy um to to do uh be a good kind of part-time business and then every person you know you know that when a guest comes over they're gonna show that thing to them, because it's cool right.

M

Yeah, you know, and so.

L

It would also be just amazing for a word of mouth, so I think it could serve multiple purposes and also when, when approaching like, like habitat for humanity or large organizations, um just to give.

F

Them like a hands-on.

L

Kind of you know.

F

H

B

A

It would serve many different.

L

A

Yeah I like it, it's uh you're, talking kind of like the accessory dwelling unit concept.

L

F

I think so yeah and you.

A

F

We can experiment how far.

L

We want to get.

B

E

A

L

Have a you know, but it doesn't.

A

Need to, I don't think yeah, that's that's kind of like a byproduct and low-hanging fruit of a smaller version of what we're building right. Now I mean that's like like could be 256 square feet. So, like a quarter of the house, it's a quarter house. You know much much less effort.

A

Yeah yeah, I could be a product, could be a good product. um I think it doesn't meet. Some of I mean how you know. If we're gonna solve housing, does it meet? The criteria could be part of that solution like because with excess accessory dwelling units you're literally like doubling the population that can live on a certain lot. That's why they have that in california.

A

So I guess they have to have some facilities in, like I don't know if they have bathroom or kitchen but yeah it's supposed to be like a self-contained, uh the kind of adus in california. I believe they're self-contained living units right, yeah,.

A

G

What happened there? I.

A

G

A

G

But yeah, the only problem is that it's only allowed in certain municipalities right.

A

So that's one thing and, and I don't think it's a mainstream product.

F

H

A

uh Solution for housing, but it could be here's our bootstrap route to generate some revenue and build from that refine and generate publicity about it sure I think it would be more doable, but then, I think, think about the ultimate market. The ultimate market is going to be much smaller right because um normal family is not going to do that right.

A

Typically, family units or family units.

A

So yeah smaller smaller less effort, but also solves less, but it actually could be a strategic point, though I.

J

E

Airbnb units.

A

Yeah, I mean- maybe that's that's feasible, so that's an investment and then would pay back for you. Maybe that's like maybe like a lot of people want that and yeah we're going to generate passive income with these adus that pay themselves. Well, I mean what are the realistic things: 50 bucks a day. It costs you.

A

It depends how you build. It is how much it cost you could be like 2, 000, 10 000, depending on how you build it, maybe ten thousand, depending where you are well, if it's fifty fifty dollars.

A

uh Well, that's a bunch of days. That would that's the payback time you know yeah, but maybe it is a good well. So fifty if it's 10 000. now what is that? How many hours is that 200 200 rentals 200 days and you pay back for it? Maybe a a good revenue model for some.

G

A

You know 50 bucks a day would be 1500 a month if it's, if it's filled so yeah um so anyway, to wrap up- let's wrap up here, but so do you want to do that basically, or would that be worthwhile time spent to explore actually generating some of these assets during the evening sessions? Or do we just go give up and move back to the city.

G

I think it's worth it.

D

I think it's a good use of time. I mean this is really the best like you're you're kind of in an echo chamber by yourself. Thinking like me personally I'll, look in my notebook and think about things, but it's always nice to bounce ideas around and then try to come up with some actual things to take away and go.

F

A

What do you think.

J

K

K

A

Okay, then, maybe for the next time, we're going to say, let's think about this, what we talked about today, maybe the next time we meet, which is next tuesday. We ask ourselves.

A

Actually, let's maybe do that tuesday and friday, because I want brian to be here- and I think- and he has class tuesday thursday. um But if we do that for the next time for the next tuesday can we say, can we agree to commit to something? Like maybe start with, I want to commit to this, and if we have common ground we go forward.

A

K

This is only our second yeah.

A

So we can start next meeting, saying okay thought about a little bit: here's what we want to commit like individually. Okay, I want to commit to x. Can we just start the next meeting with that.

D

A

D

So, between the eco home between 3d printers between the whatever else we come up with or.

A

Well, I think, for me, I think the the valuable thing is whatever comes out of these gates. We have a higher chance of survival work together, because.

B

Otherwise, like.

A

What are we doing like? Are we gonna just discuss stuff, because we can discuss things and do that? I think um that's valuable, it's fun, but we're not getting anywhere by discussion like we're getting some well, I mean I don't know how much value is there in discussion? There's well.

K

I mean, obviously there is a bunch of.

A

Podcasts, um you know we could start a podcast next week, but I feel like because we have certain skills here. We can actually put them. I think we can put them to use and actually developing the assets that are required.

A

uh It's because, at the end of the day, it's like okay, we leave here and okay, how far along the business and development and product development are. We and I think, even if we don't know the the answer well, I feel that I can definitely work on it like.

A

um I definitely feel we can generate useful stuff if we just set our mind to saying yeah we're going to collaborate on useful stuff. That's that every one of us can use.

J

Wes, what do you think about that?.

C

I mean my opinion is the.

C

um Like the useful stuff, but like the digital materials, yeah uh related to enterprise could be useful, um but I don't.

C

I don't think they're actually going to get copied by anyone unless we've actually demonstrated that we can generate profit and then when and then we put on the site, here's how much here's, how much profit regenerated in the next period of time.

J

Smart facility.

D

Or franchise model, most people want a clear model to follow if they hear that.

D

You have to hear that you're, a supplier that you want to start an ecosystem or a franchise. They sort of want a step-by-step approach, and this is more of an open-ended like everyone. Please bring their creativity and drive and uh connections and, like you know, collaborate together. It's definitely like not clear. It's not the same as like saying I want to open up mcdonald's and uh you got a three-ring binder.

A

Yeah, but isn't that my hope is that we can create that three-ring binder it doesn't matter. If we can do it or not, we will do it if, if we have set like it's the same thing as uh the 99 to 1 ratio of design time to build time, can't we design a lot and then we say these are our goals and what we want to do, because the assumption I carry is that just about anything we think up is possible.

A

You have to think about clever ways to get there, so you don't think we can operate like that. I mean that's! That's how I'm kind of thinking about it. When I say we don't have it but we're designing it. So if we design it a lot of the prototyping in the design phase, that's it to the point that you're kind of refining it until it's highly likely to work and it informs what we do as the product. So it's a synergistic effort to what we're doing.

A

I don't see that the prototype at all necessary to say yeah we're going to do it, because I guess I have the confidence to know that yeah we can build things and, yes, we can optimize and so forth. So I'm just saying what are those milestones that we have to define and reach and then we'll just reach them, because I think there's incredible creativity that can happen.

A

Is does anyone else think like that.

C

What do you want? The milestones to be.

A

Well, the numbers have it's like: the numbers have to add up here's a business model that, at the end of the day, adds up and then the market like, for example, the marketing. Then we can already start creating. Oh yeah, it's uh it's! What amazon does? What does amazon do in their product development.

A

I

In here so hello is everything working.

A

It's working great, okay question: what does amazon do they start with a press release? That's that's the best company in the world. I'm trying to do that here start with a press release. This is what we want we're going to get it.

C

And we work back from that. I think there's a conflict between on jobbing and hiring people in entrepreneurship.

C

I

Didn't they also do something where they were, like figuring out what the most popular thing was and kind of reverse engineering that, with your amazon, amazon, basics.

A

I think that's the.

K

A

So not a lot of buy-in to the to the amazon. uh I I have that. Let me let me just point to that article. So it's amazon, um because I thought that was that's pretty advanced way to do it, because that means you're putting forth the commitment to actually make it happen. um But let's see amazon, you.

D

Say now you have to deliver on it.

A

But that's that's part of the psychology. That's how this stuff works. At the end of the day, it does amazon's.

D

Successful because of the long tail, they offer a bunch of products that other people have developed and because they offer so many different kinds of the lowest price and the fastest delivery. No.

A

But I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about their product development, that's how they do their product development. They want to launch a new product. They engage this product. This process, which starts with a press release, that's where they actually. What other product are you thinking about any product, whether it's kindle they started as selling books, so they would develop different products like what now they have movies, they have what financial services they have like 100 products, a lot a lot of different stuff. Besides the fact that you shop on amazon.

D

Well, they have some demand for those things like they sell traditional books before they know, there's demand for a new kind of book reader, although I agree like that's a risk that they took, you know. Maybe people don't want ebooks or you know.

C

Aws, they were already solving.

D

This problem for themselves, and then they decided to open it to other people, similar problems.

A

Yeah but that's that's called that's called products. It's like it's called launching a product developing a product and that's the process they go through. I don't think the the product you're saying. Oh, are you saying that oh well they're gonna succeed because they're working on reasonable products already.

D

They already attracted a lot of attention from customers, so you know I would say that.

A

So they have their marketing solved, in other words, and then they can do this. I.

D

Mean they're kind of a virtuous cycle like they have a lot of customers because they already have a lot of customers to launch new products. But at the beginning,.

B

D

It by having the biggest variety.

A

Yeah, no, I see so you're making a claim that maybe that kind of logic doesn't apply here. We cannot. um Maybe that's not a good model to go by.

D

uh I don't think it applies to us.

I

Somewhat unrelated note, I don't know if it's the noise cancelling function, which.

F

Is right above share.

I

Screen it's noise expression, but it might be happening with me too, but kind of in between words cutting the audio off.

D

Yeah, we needed a better microphone more group, video.

A

Yeah, we need a better. We need to address this. This thing the voice issues and all that um yeah. Okay, okay, well, that's feedback! uh That's a good point! It is a point they have captive markets. However, I also think um I'm not able to find it on amazon what they call that.

A

Okay, we have the pizza, the pizza rule. They do for new product development, it's a team that can gather about pizza, so a small team like up to seven people. Let me see if I can find their amazon to pizza.

A

Roll yeah yeah yeah yeah, so it is under amazon project teams and it's under amazon. Two pizza rolls so work is done by small teams, uh famously amazon famously described these as two pizza teams, that is, teams small enough to be fed by two pizzas teams work independently, starting with high level description of what they're trying to accomplish any project amazon is designed via working backwards process. That's what I'm after here the working backwards.

A

We say as a company starts with a press release that describes what the finished product does and why it's an internal, only service or product, the customer might be another internal team. Then they write a frequently asked questions. They create mock-ups and other ways of defining the customer experience. They go as far as to write the actual user manual describing how the product is used. Only then is the actual product. Green lighted for development development is still iterative informed.

A

By addition, data from actual users as the product is is built and tested, but the promise of the final product is where everything starts. That's what I'm calling for here that I'm calling for that kind of logic.

A

uh I think that's I do other people find this logic valuable or no, or this doesn't make sense.

A

I think it to me it does make sense we should define. I think it.

L

I think I can't talk about your time.

M

uh I I think it makes sense.

L

uh And it's kind of consistent.

M

F

L

The other stuff we're talking about in terms of like customer interviews and stuff, but I think one key difference: is there they're trying to determine what what product to build, whereas we already have a number of products? So in some ways we need to figure out more what.

F

L

Kind of decision.

A

L

For our customers and and no.

A

I don't know hold on man I'll cut you off on that, because we don't, we don't have a product, that's the thing we're deciding we're still deciding, so we have a lot of projects and things that are like products, but I think it's really like we. We don't have that we're at the exact same stage that amazon is there they're deciding they've got all these options and they're going to say we're going to write a press release about it, but.

I

Do you mean prioritizing? What exactly is it because I may I may be mistaken so correct me wrong, but I think they were saying, as in with the various construction sets like it's not like what is the latest gizmo for people to buy like the gizmos? Are there it's more if what I'm understanding, what you're saying is which one to develop or push out first, is that correct.

A

We're asking more: how do we go approaching a?

A

How do we set up a process here that actually works, as in constructed we're kind of still debating that we're debating? Okay? Should we actually generate assets for a product? Should we talk? Should we start a podcast in this enterprise session or whatever, on the.

I

A

We're trying to get the clarity on how to approach the the enterprise seminar, because we don't have buy-in uniformly here that oh yeah, we could just generate assets and go forward with developing this thing that we just simply create in our minds. First, do that here's a press release, we got it and then work backwards. There's not we don't have that agreement here.

A

So maybe I don't know- maybe maybe think about this- maybe maybe save it for next time, maybe think about it, um but maybe outside of that. So what any other ideas like what what could be a useful approach, because I I suggested this kind of work backwards approach because we uh start with the product and then we go backwards. So what are some of the contending approaches that we can take on to make this time? Productive, maybe I mean is that a good question or.

I

um I guess I'm just going to state things that I've seen.

I

Huge demands, like um filament makers, fdm filament makers like there's over on the precious plastics discord. You know people they do a lot of injection molding stuff that requires mold. So a lot of them are like, oh, what about a three printing filament maker. So what you were saying we were gonna dive into that. Was it in this workshop or the next one you were doing at all. You had the cat all updated right, so that would be huge. I think if we get that sent out right to people.

A

Well, I think we're deciding more about how do we approach this enterprise seminar itself.

I

To like how like try and approach all the things of like, oh, it would be great if the company would fix this or oh, I hate how they designed this aspect kind of, like pick apart from that, I guess.

A

um Should we do now, should we uh break away and think about it next time or yeah? Okay, let's, let's, uh let's finish here, we're into the little overtime here but yeah. So, let's, uh let's take it on again see if we have more clarity on next next tuesday and see if we can take this discussion further or into some productivity, or maybe maybe that's what we do. Maybe we just like nail and just keep talking about the concepts and all that until something maybe clicks.

A

I don't know I mean okay, so thank you very much everybody and we will take the third enterprise development session next.

L