Permissionless Software Foundation Technical Steering Committee, 2 Mar 2022

Previous Meeting Next Meeting

⏯

youtube image

►

From YouTube: TSC Meeting 03-02-2022

Description

A recording of the PSF TSC meeting on 03/02/22

A

Namecheap announced that they were, they were blocking russian sites from from the uh yeah from access to the.

A

B

We are live, awesome.

C

Well, welcome everybody to the permissionless software foundation. Technical steering committee meeting uh today is march, 2nd 2022, I'm joined by all these lovely people. Let's go ahead and do a quick round of introductions. I'll start, I'm chris troutner, I founded the permissionless software foundation and uh I'm grateful for all the participation of all these brilliant minds in the room here and several that are not in the room with us today. Unfortunately, aaron shoemaker, you want to give an intro.

B

Yeah, my name is aaron shoemaker. I work with uh 3d nft 360 stuff in the permissionless software and developing in that technology direction.

D

Yeah go ahead: cool, cleaner, hi, aaron, sundman. I've been a big fan of the permissionless software foundation. Ever since I just found you online, I feel like the big thing here is: innovation has to be permissionless if it's going to make a difference, otherwise you're going to get stymied by governments or strong men or I I often will now just call them warlords. You know anything that says you know. If I can control the surroundings around you, I can stop you. The individual sovereignty is what's important and so supporting permissionless software is.

D

Is why I'm up here and I'm enjoying but being part of it thanks yeah go ahead. Stewart.

E

um My name is steven jakov and I sometimes help with the javascript libraries on the psf. It's all from me.

A

E

A

I'm sam a psf supporter and I'm maintaining the wallet service for the ipfs.

C

Yeah very appreciated, very appreciated.

C

Okay, with that, I'm gonna go ahead and share my screen.

C

Bring up the agenda: if I can there we go, you guys, can see my screen.

C

Okay great! um So as always, our agendas are on github and they can be accessed later. If anybody's, watching this recording they're on github.com under the permissionless software foundation, github group in a repository called tsc for technical steering committee.

C

We file them under the issues tab, and so this is the one for today.

C

And so, as every time we get together, this is really an opportunity for us to celebrate our sort of technical achievements uh between the the between the meetings and then once we get through the agenda, um we'll just open it up to a round table a discussion where we can talk about news or tech or anything, um okay. So to start the top with the psf core software, which includes the bch api, which is the rest api bchjs, which is our javascript sdk.

C

The gatsby theme bch wallet, which is our web. uh Our gatsby theme for building web wallets ipfs cord, which is a I'm going to talk about that a bit today that that keeps all of our infrastructure communicating over ipfs and the psf slp indexer, which is a recent edition, which is uh the new slp token indexer.

C

um So just to start the top here, uh one of the things that got broken out after a while is this sweep feature on wallet.fullstack.cache. So this allows people to store bitcoin cash and tokens on a paper wallet um either for cold storage or to give to someone else, which is a great way to onboard people, because they don't need to know anything. You can just hand them this piece of paper and be like here when you're ready to learn more. You know the coins are here for and so sweep is.

C

What lets you remove them from the paper wallet and put them back into your active web wallet, and then you know to do things with them. So that's that's now restored um and you guys at any point feel free to interrupt me. I'm just going to go through these, but I love to be interrupted and get a little more detail.

C

uh Dependencies have been updated and vulnerabilities updated in gatsby, okay, so um so gatsby theme, bch wall is our gatsby theme, so anybody who has ever built a gatsby website they can just plug in our theme. They get basic wallet functionality and they can they can get going and then bch wallet. Starter is a gatsby starter. So if you're, that already has that theme built into it.

C

So if you want to start your own web wallet, you can just uh there's a if you go through the gatsby documentation, there's a command that you can run to basically clone the wallet starter and you're off and running with the fully functional uh web wallet. You can start hacking on, and so what we've been doing is, among other things, is we daniel, just, went through and updated all the npm dependencies and looked at all the vulnerabilities, and we tried to fix as many of those as we can.

C

So that's that's just kind of kind of house keeping um and so those those two packages also use freebch.fullstack.cache. So this is the community as opposed to the fullstack.cache services, which is a paid commercial service. This is our community web 3 infrastructure, so sam's contributing to this uh cool, cleaner aaron is, is, is contributing to this I'm contributing to this.

C

So um eventually, this url will be a little smarter where the the back end behind it will um basically automatically detect what is the best back-end service to use at that moment and then and so it'll it'll proxy your? um What do you call that um load balance, it'll, load, balance across all the available infrastructure on the network and uh um so yeah pretty excited about it's not quite there. Yet right now, it's just fixed on one server, but that's the goal.

C

um Also, these web wallets and this infrastructure has been tested on a raspberry pi. So uh you don't need a very heavy duty, computer uh to get started with web wallet, development and, um and also uh one of the things that we've not been able to do uh with with full stack.cache previously has been come up with it with an android app. Everybody wants an app uh iphone or an android app for our web wallet and the reason we haven't been able to do.

C

That is because uh we could we can't prevent abuse basically and we and we can't scale in the face of abuse, because somebody has to pay for this. This expensive web 2 service at fullstack.cache. So by moving to the web 3 architecture, we now have an android apk file and I have the the file here. It's a little confusing.

C

um Let's see, I think it's this one here yeah. So if you follow that link, it'll, take you here and there's a download button halfway down over here on the right and that's where you could, if you, if you navigate.

C

Basically, if you click on that lancor or manually, navigate to this repo with your iphone or with your phone with your android phone, you can click that download button and it's going to give you some warnings, but you can download and install that apk and let me see if I can show what it looks like I mean this just looks like the web wallet. I got it working. What.

E

Are the advantages of using this package.

C

On the website, I can't show it because it's green and um and so it's the the desktop's not showing up um yeah. So that's a good question stoian.

C

The advantage is that um when you bring up the web wallet in a browser on the phone uh there's a little bit of a wait time, because it's like a 10 megabyte download every time you try to access your web wall, you got to go through this waiting period which can be really annoying, and so installing the app you skip that the only waiting you have to wait for is is the actual network connection to like update your wallet's balance and- um and that's that is also pretty slow right now.

C

But that's going to I'm going to talk about a few things in a minute about how that experience is going to speed up significantly.

C

So that's the main advantage, um but also really the the attractive point here is that we've everything is open source and it's there. So if some business wants to make their own white label version of the web wallet and produce an iphone and android app for their little web wallet, um you know we're trying to make it as easy as possible for people to fork it and white label it for their own purposes.

B

Everybody wants an app.

D

Yeah, that's true, yeah. I think this is a good time to bring up the idea and we haven't talked about a lot, but this idea of composability. You know when somebody writes something it can be you reused over and over by anybody around the world and that's what's making the open source world so valuable as well.

D

As I mean you have to end up having some infrastructure to your point from earlier chris, it has to actually run somewhere and if we write it or you and sam and daniel and them are writing this stuff, anyone can pick it up and make amazing things with it. So I appreciate that as well. Yeah, thanks for pointing.

C

That out, that that needs to be said.

C

um Okay, so going back to the agenda? um Okay! So uh sorry, just ahead.

E

A quick, a quick question: uh are there like messaging features in the app sending secure messages from this uh web? uh Not web application.

C

um Not yet but they're planned, um so we have what we have is end-to-end encrypted messaging in the clywal, in the command line, wallet, the psf, bch wallet and so and that's working, and so the thing that needs to be done is to just build the user interface around that and so like we have in the past. This android example. Wallet is pretty much going to stay. The way it is any additional functionality is going to be developed as plugins and and so we we actually have.

C

You know we have that developed in message.fullstack.cache, but that website's not functional anymore, because it just hasn't been maintained. um So that's definitely on the roadmap is to add a plug-in um where you can do uh end-to-end encrypted messaging, but it is available for any developers who want to you know, play with it and help us.

C

I mean anybody is welcome to to take up that torch and I'm sure we can make some psf token grants for anybody who wants to to build build that functionality build build that that web wallet plug-in that is going to be needed.

D

Storyan, are you talking about just because of the stuff that's going on on the world right now in ukraine and.

E

Russia, no, because uh how to see we had several like warrants be before, uh like with messaging without messaging. I just wanted to ask on which one is based application about. The worldwide situation is like yeah. It's always tough. I just needed to know not needed, but I wanted to ask what what it's based on just to to know is, since other words uh like messaging becoming very essential part of the words like even the explorers now start, adding messaging to the token owner.

E

So you go to some token page and you can talk to the owner of this token. So it's a very communication is important. That's why I wanted to ask yeah yeah.

B

E

Will help us with this problem.

B

I I will say the one of the things I noticed in eath. Denver is a lot of these people. Yeah encrypted messaging is a a huge part of what they're trying to develop. um I don't know what they're using for encryption, but you know a lot of these protocols are trying to implement the same thing. So you know everybody seems to be going down the same path.

C

Yeah- and you know like that's the thing we have the tech uh and the low level stuff all we need at this point is someone to step up and build the user interface for it and actually I'll give a shout out to cash tab, which is the web wallet on the ecash chain. It does have built-in and encrypted messaging on there um kind of a neat neat feature and they're using the exact, I believe, they're actually using our code.

C

Okay, so uh put out a series of posts this last month on the full stack, cache twitter feed and then the different telegram channels um that we were going to deprecate slpdb, the older token indexer and and basically move all of our infrastructure over to the new indexer.

C

That is in process, there's a couple things that I know are going to break and just in the last few days we found a couple minor bugs with the the token indexer. So uh so everybody should be actively moving away from slpdb and moving to the new slp psf slp indexer, um so yeah, so that that sort of transition period is is well underway. Right now, and this is going to be a.

B

C

Is going to be a rocky month um because a lot of things are going to break as we as we basically slpdb is like four to six times more expensive to operate. I mean whether you're talking about computational power running at home or whether you're talking about paying for a cloud server uh either way it's about six times more expensive.

C

So that's the main reason why we're moving away? Also it's unreliable and the new indexer is maintained by us. So if there's a bug we can directly, you know deal with it rather than slp db. No one in wide community wider community has been able to maintain.

D

I think the ability to blacklist and whitelist I mean you've built in a lot of things that allow individuals to customize how much power they want us put behind it. How much effort so right there you've already given a lot more to the community just because of that kind of capability as well.

C

Thank you, yeah, yeah, that the blacklist feature was something that was never added to slpdb and it's it's pro. It's already proving to be giving operators the ability to control.

C

You know how much computational energy they want to give to a token uh and whether or not that's, acceptable or not, and and and have the individual control over. That is already proving to be pretty valuable.

C

um Yeah, uh there is a bug I actually just fixed it this morning in the index or around the document hash field that daniel discovered yesterday. So I'm already um indexing uh re reindexing it uh with the with the fix, but the document hash field. Most people don't use it and that's why we didn't notice it right away, but it's uh we do use it for this new mutable token or mutable data token spec, which allows for token icons.

C

um So we're going to be using that a lot more so yeah. We just discovered that today or yesterday.

D

When do you think that'll be finished? um Indexing I'd like to get that version of this. You know.

C

I'm hoping that it'll be done in two or three days: okay, uh because what I'm able to do is use that this this transaction map, so I don't have to brute force index every transaction blockchain. I can. I already have a map of all the slp transactions, um and so I can just it's a much faster indexing process, um because you already know you basically can exclude all the transactions in the blockchain that you know you're not interested in.

B

It was interesting to me to see um why I was out of eat denver, just like everybody's looking in ethereum, the cost of ethereum and then heroes slp, which is incredibly cheaper, uh like people just yesterday were like I'm in an nft for 77 cents on loop ring, and I'm like. I meant one for like a tenth of a cent.

A

Last year,.

B

A

B

And not only that the the mutable protocol like having having people understand the ledger, as opposed to smart contract, is, is a little bit difficult, I think uh and get. But you know both have use cases.

C

Yeah yeah definitely yeah, and you know on that topic. I um boy where'd. uh Oh, you know the very first thing I meant to to talk about. Thank you, I'm glad you brought that up. It's reminding me um uh on the psf video page for ps foundation, dot cash, slash, video, uh I've now added, so this video that we're recording right now, that's going to go in the latest media section, so anybody wants to watch older t meetings. This is where those are going to go. um I just added this beginner video section and.

C

I can't forget what what we're going to talk about? uh Oh, but I talk about how to work with tokens, how to how to store them on on paper wallets and and bring them back um dang. I forgot. I was going to tie that into what you just said, but now now it's escaping me.

B

Oh, I was talking about uh the difference between a smart contract token and one that's written into the ledger.

B

Being the simple ledger in in simple ledger: yeah.

C

Yeah yeah, so these are super. These beginner ones are super basic. I've been trying to show them to all like the non-technical people that I can and I've got some good feedback. I'm actually going to cut some of the content in some of them. Just because, like yeah and uh but anyways there's these videos and then um the beginner javascript section focuses on raspberry pi 4 or the pi 400 they're, basically the same and how to run all of the software in our cache stack.

C

So um let me dive into that. So this is from one of the blog articles on the ps foundation website, um just sort of a blow up version of our cache stack.

C

So you got the global back end down below this line, and that's that runs on a bigger computer like sam and aaron are running, and then everything above this line should run on a raspberry pi, and so there's this service consumer that essentially attaches to the ipfs network and can talk to all those other backend global, backend servers and, um and then the phone app is the apk file that that we were just talking about so that that talks to this consumer uh and then which proxies the data across the ipfs network to one of the global backend servers.

C

And um so these videos on the right about the raspberry pi. They they run everything above this ipfs network line and that that includes the web wallet and developing the web wallet white labeling it for your own, your own business. And then I've started to flesh out this opsec video section. So I've got one on how to install end and encrypted chat, uh one on how to install and use the cash fusion to anonymize your bitcoin cash with uh with electron cash wallet.

C

The next one I'm going to be adding is going to be uh using bitcoin cash to create anonymous email to service, and so I'll be I'll, be adding on those just. I feel like this. This opsec stuff is like increasingly important, and I don't really see anybody producing how-to videos on how to you know how to sign up for an autumn email, how to sign up for an anonymous server, how to anonymize your money, how to set up an encrypted chat.

C

You know those sorts of things that seems like more and more people need these days.

A

I've heard a lot about this. I see the xmpp there, that is, that a pro that's a protocol right first for private private uh messaging or you like.

F

E

A

Can use it for I had a lot of use cases. The.

E

Jabber protocol jabber right it was the first uh like a bridge between america, online and other like messaging services. So it's like a chat, but all communication sign xml like uh http file running around, but it is very, very flexible.

E

Very it's that's why everybody is using it because you can plug it plug in for your own, like services, you can make it more secure, make it like a chat or or whatever. So it's a great protocol just a little noisy. They even tried to replace it with json. I think, but I'm not sure if it was successful.

C

Yeah, it's pretty old school, it's like 20 years old, the protocol and it's sort of making a comeback in the well like. No, no one needs to have an argument about what it is or how it should work, because it's 20 years old at this point and and so yeah. What I show here is how to run an application called pidgin which runs on all operating systems which uses that protocol and then there's a plugin called off the record which, which end end encrypts it and then deletes the messages.

C

um When you close the app.

C

um Okay, good, I'm glad you reminded me of that aaron of those those videos. I skipped over that part. Go ahead, it's dwayne! No! uh When.

E

We opened the the floor. I wanted to ask you about the matrix. What was the other protocol but yeah? Oh.

C

Well, you know- hopefully I don't know much about it, so hopefully you guys can school me on that, but yeah. I would love to talk about that.

C

um Okay, so uh moving on to the next section, json rpc over ipfs and the pay to write database, that's ipfs cord is this javascript library and it's what allows it's sort of the secret sauce that lets. This communication happen over the ipfs network that allows the the local backend to talk to the global backend. It's like the core component um and so it's being heavily refactored right now.

C

uh Basically, what happened is I was trying to replicate everything on the raspberry pi, and I noticed that um this that that running this uh bch ipfs bch service consumer, which is like the local backend, was just taking way too much cpu power and um after really digging into it. I realized it's orbit db and um orbit db. Before I say what I'm about to say, I just want to say that I love orbit tv. It's a it's a peer-to-peer database, it. I think it was the first one there.

C

There are other ones now, there's like ceramic. That is basically a peer-to-peer database there's textile threads, which is a peer-to-peer database. Those are both like much more complex than orbitdb. Orbitdb is very simple and it and we use it in the pay to write database and it's that's a perfect application for it, but in ipfs court.

C

What I was doing is the primary communication medium that all the nodes on the ip on our ipfs network uses is pub sub, um publish, subscribe protocol, but because those ipfs nodes are like constantly adjusting their connection and trying to make the most optimal connection.

C

uh What frequently happens is uh when one node sends a message to another node over pub sub. The node will, like just temporarily, be disconnected and won't receive that message, so we needed some way for the other nodes to be like hey, here's, a message for you that arrived while you were gone, and um so I was using orbit db for that. But that's not really what orbit db is intended for, because it's intended to be a database, and so every new node was causing all the other nodes.

C

um Hey aaron. I can still hear you a little bit. I don't know if you can hear me uh anyways all the other nodes on the it was. Basically it's not scalable. um It was causing the spike in cpu usage like way more cpu usage than we should have been using, and it got worse with the more nodes on the network. So um so I've removed orbit db and I've I've written it's actually not a very complex.

C

You know feature there just to this ability for other nodes to be like hey. This message came in for you. While you were gone, um so I already wrote that and it's working great and I've already tested it into the stack and everything's working. So the only thing left to do at this point is write unit tests, and I'm really excited about this because it's going to make our entire web 3 stack much more scalable like like the this is at least a 10x improvement in speed and uh reduction in cpu usage.

C

So I'm very excited about this um yeah. So that's a that's it. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah I mean the the proof will be in the pudding. I'm uh like I've only been able to do preliminary tests. So I'm excited to actually roll it out uh and then you know see what problems arise but yeah.

C

So that's that um the pay to write database um has been updated to use the new slp indexer. That's one of the things I was worried about breaking as we phased out the old indexer, that's an update, um and then finally, let me just give an update on the token decks.

C

uh So, as I've said before uh so, avalanche gave us a grant to develop the dex on their chain. Ecash gave us a grant to develop a dexa on their chain and then the bch community gave us a grant to build the new slp indexer, and so gary has been working on the avalanche side of things. We're doing that first because they gave us the money. First um he's completed the accept phase, so there's three phases in the trade there's the mate.

C

There's the make the take and the accept, and so he's completed the third phase. So we now have end-to-end tests. If anybody I can, if anybody wants help, I can show them how to set up a development environment, and so you can make an offer. Someone else can take an offer and then the original the maker like accepts the offer, and then the trade is done and it's trustless and atomic.

C

And um so we have.

A

That going back to you, uh it is huge yeah. So it's really.

C

It's really good progress to have this whole thing so now, daniel's, building a user interface for that and um and gary is now working on the sell side. So that's the bot yeah, that's their on the buy side. So right now we have the sell side. So someone wanting to sell tokens, but this whole process should also work if someone wants to put out enough like I want to buy tokens for this much um so that's that's!

C

The next step is is getting that to work, and so I'm I'm also going to start porting all of this code over to bitcoin cash, both the user interface and the and the the back-end software as a medium term, step to to porting it over to the ecash blockchain and then we'll have it on all three blockchains.

B

That's something that, when I was out talking to all these developers at eth denver and I'm talking to some people that are like ceos and founders like they have no idea. This is coming no idea. They're talking about working on the avalanche. Blockchain I'm like did you know, there's a token decks coming they're like no. No. This is crazy, like they they're working on this interoperability, that's already happening and the I'm hearing people talking about working on avalanche a lot and they just had no idea that there's a token decks coming.

B

uh There's gonna be trustless swaps of tokens. That way and what that's gonna mean for uh you know these gaming communities, because a lot of them are are doing gaming stuff. You know uh it's the that's going to be huge for the gaming gaming side, but the decks is it going to be on the x chain or the c2 yeah yeah.

C

Yeah yeah, particularly with avalanche there's, been several dexes launched recently on the c chain, and what's interesting is so the old way when people use the word dex they're generally referring to a dex on ethereum like sushi, swap where there's a liquidity pool involved, and these dexes only work, I mean the reason they weren't built before they were built is because this concept of the liquidity pool ended up being like a crucial thing.

C

But now dexes are starting to come out where there is no liquidity pool, and you can do different things like set limit and buy orders and and there's less slippage, um because that's one of these problems with liquidity pool is like a lot of slippage and um uh so yeah. Not only are we going to have the only decks on the x chain to my knowledge uh there there also won't be any need for liquidity, pools, it's going to be completely peer-to-peer, um and so it'll be more like a traditional order book.

C

Where you have like you know you, you would you if you were, if you were a trader, um you would set up like okay, I'm gonna set. You know this token at this price and then more tokens at this price, plus one percent and then more tokens at this price, plus two percent and so and so you sort of if you've ever seen, an order book. It looks like a v where there's.

A

C

These buys and sells, and you get these cell walls. So it's going to be very much like a traditional order book and and so that behavior people coming from the actual, like stock trading world trying to work with defy it's very confusing for them, because this concept of the order book and the slippage and liquidity pool. These are all brand new concepts.

C

And so I'm hoping that this dex, that we're building is going to feel much more natural for people who are used to trading stocks.

B

Yeah, it's a there's so much going on in the psf I'm like when I was out there was like permissionless software foundation. You got to check it out, like everything you're talking about it's being done. You know yeah check this stuff out.

C

The other thing that I'm in you know history will be the judge of this, but um you like these, these these dexes on on on the sea chain and on on ethereum and stuff, because they need these liquidity pools and because no one really knows who's running what infrastructure and then infer goes down and everybody goes down with it um uh like I don't know how actually censorship resistant a lot of that stuff is um but the way we're building this decks, uh at least in the bitcoin cash from the ecash side, um and it's certainly like possible with the avalanche too is you can run everything on your own computer like you are not dependent on anybody, but yourself, uh just your internet connection and uh no one can stop you from trading um and uh or seeing other people's offers, and so that's the thing I'm really really excited about, and I think that's what the world needs right now is you know the ability to trade peer-to-peer.

B

Yeah totally and getting people used to that and used to that idea. I'm I'm excited that the dex is getting up and going because uh I'm I'm really gonna try to push for, like some farmers markets to uh utilize slp tokens this summer.

C

Nice yeah I'm planning on doing the same thing. So, let's work together on that yeah.

C

All right: well, that's the agenda guys I I'll open up the florida anything we want to talk about. At this point news or attacker, you got any burning burning things. You want to talk about stolen.

E

No particularly something I.

A

Have something I.

E

Shoot the free bsd collection. If, if you want freebies free nft on polygon, you can get one.

A

E

A

I think uh you you were working on this uh p2, the p2sh for a while right. I kind of I've been looking into that for a while, and I got a little. I think I'm like this close to broadcasting a p2sh three or five. So, oh.

E

Really, I think, share some sources.

A

C

E

C

The middle- it's pretty tough, but here let me let me maybe you guys can educate me because um this is a very foggy thing, but I seem to recall that, like the multi-sig that I think stoin that you found in the bchjs source code, I think that's using the actual multi-sig op code, but I think most multi-signature wallets are p2sh where they're using a script rather than the actual multi-sig op code. I'm.

C

If I'm wrong about that, I really want someone to work well.

A

The the uh the p2sh is basically uh the p2, ms, the multisig, but it's a hash of that.

A

So when you, when you want to unlock the the uh your tokens, you provide the hash of that script along with all the signatures, but the tricky part is getting all the the in the the index of the the v, the the vowel and everything has to be ordered. Like uh perfectly I got so I I was able to.

A

I created the five um wallets. I I think I could share the screen. Maybe yeah.

C

Let me enable that um here we go there, you go, you should be able to share now.

A

So I got this: uh let's see.

C

Man, I would love to we can't. Oh there you go, I would love to get some multi-sig examples in the bchjs examples repository so.

A

Here's what you're this is the um you see down here. This is the redeep, the app you see right down here you see the op3. These are all the public keys, so this came from here and then we get a let's came from here from this p2ms to assembly, and then we get this script here.

A

You get a uh you get the hash of this of this, the the um the app codes and then from this output script we get a, uh we get the address, it's called the I'll show you you see here. This is.

F

I notice it starts with instead of a key.

A

That means yeah, it's so like. I got all the uh five public keys uh from these whiffs. I I have them hidden over here and then we put these whiffs into uh into the the script.

A

So I got to the point where I put all these signatures with the with the public keys I edit the uh so I funded I sent this p2sh address here um a dollar and then I was trying to spend that output by providing the the uh the p2sh along with the redeem script.

A

So I here's a I got this. This is what I got with the um raw transaction.

A

uh Where is it oh here? We are you see this, uh so I got the transaction built which was this over here you see the uh the multi-sig public keys array signatures, and uh so it says uh you.

E

You came for still one missing piece, maybe from the message that you're this is.

A

This is a broadcast message, so when I tried broadcasting the transaction it says I got the uh the script evaluated, but I still ended up with a I think, a zero on the stack, which means that it's not it's not valid.

A

So I'm, I think, that's my next hurdle, so I think I'm missing an app code in there. Maybe it might be that zero that bug in the put up.

E

Yeah yeah, I think maybe, if you put because the the message itself, uh every script must finish with uh true yeah, but this one just maybe didn't throw anything. So if you put up zero, maybe two fix the stuff.

C

E

You share this.

A

I'll, send you a copy of the file.

E

Oh, thank you. Thank you.

A

Well, that's it! I.

C

Was really excited that you two are working.

A

C

I mean I want to work on this. I just don't have the bandwidth too, so I'm really really glad you guys are working on it.

A

I I just I I was a researcher and I I figured you know I have to. I want to learn this stuff, so I'm just going to look at the transaction. You.

C

Know so so gabriel cardona created bitbox, which is what bchjs is built from, and I don't think he ever fully got all this stuff working. I remember him telling me that there was there's bugs. I went to.

A

I went to I I went. I did some research on it and I've seen that a lot of the stuff came from bitcoin js.

A

I went over there and they they've been keeping up their so they have some real nice p2sh, like everything is like well documented, and you could you kind of learn how they're doing it so I kind of took some of their cues and and trying to see where you know where I could take some of their examples and use them here.

C

If that's, if that's easier, I mean, if that's what to get it working, if that's better like do that, because we can always yeah, because I, if I believe gabriel forked their code and then and then we had this bifurcation of these two code paths, so ours has not kept up to date with theirs. So if theirs is easier and better document, we can always pull their code into our code. um You know.

E

Because some functions like the one that you are showing now, there was just removed from the from the bch library and they was capsulated in some transaction builder methods, I think or transaction methods, but they just removed the whole code from the library.

E

That's why I was struggling to found what exactly from bitcoin became like is still available, but.

A

E

You make this work, it's healthy all credits going to you.

A

I was just like stuck.

E

In the middle with my.

A

Research, I wasn't sure if I could actually do it, so I kind of I just kind of wanted to study it to like learn it so I'll. You know.

E

Yeah just send me copy, I will take a look. Maybe I can find something or, but it seems pretty much almost working, maybe just.

A

E

Throwing the true uh also maybe there's uh you can uh check, maybe your uh op codes working on this uh beat. uh What was this.

C

Bitcoin js, I think, is that what it was sam yeah.

A

E

Library there was some uh online playground where you can put uh like this uh fort light codes, and it will. uh I will just found it and send it to you.

A

I found one called block cipher, but that was mostly works with uh btc and litecoin, where you put the you put the hex in there and it it tells you if you're, if you're, if the transaction will be valid.

E

uh I I will check and send it later because now we'll just lose time but yeah nice very.

A

E

A

Send you a senior copy, yeah.

E

And we can figure, maybe if there's something but but it seems very, very much working so yeah.

C

Yeah, it looks good yeah, there's a couple other things where there's like there's like two: I think script, dot and code functions, there's like in code and then in code, two in bchjs, and one of them works with slp, and one of them is works with other, like that. This is kind of where we're at with bchjs. It's like a lot of stuff works, pretty much.

C

The only thing that doesn't work is multi-sick, and so, but multisig is a really desirable thing, so I would be totally fine with creating a whole new library class in bchjs just for multisig, where we could bring in like the bitcoin.js code or whatever we need to do in order to get multisig working once once. You know somebody figures it out.

A

C

That's good stuff! Well um yeah! I mean obviously there's you know, there's so much going on in the world. I don't I kind of don't want to misstep, but I mean I think, we're all aware of how just between the canadian truckers and the russia ukraine thing going on and all the sanctions everybody's sanctioning everybody.

C

I think it's just so clear to everyone how important.

A

I kept thinking about the psf when, when I seen the uh the uh gl give the gofundme was taken from the I wanted to tell me. What have you heard of a you know, flip starter or or you know, psf. There was a lot of opportunity there for this technology.

C

Yeah, so I don't know if you guys noticed but flip starter, which is like kickstarter, but on bitcoin cash, and um uh they raised some funds. It was pretty. I didn't donate to it because they didn't say like who was collecting the phones or where the funds were going like a lot of really important information.

C

um You just kind of had to trust it, uh which kind of. Why would you do it on flipstarter then? But it's just so technically, uh like it's just so technically difficult to work with flipstarter, um and I and I get it. I understand like at a high level like the the because it it's using like actually low-level script programming in those things. So that's why it's it's so difficult to work with, but yeah.

D

You don't just want down a domain because then it can be shut down the dns right, so there has to be some sort of low-level connection to it. So it makes sense. But if it's hard to use.

C

Yeah, so I just thought it was noteworthy that this was exactly the type of condition where flip starter was built to shine, but it's just so technically complex. It didn't. You know, like people, just it's so hard for people to figure out how to raise, how to use it, how to donate to.

D

It well, you know, what's interesting about the recent things that have happened. Is it's not been clear to people in the first world why this is important? It has just not been clear people just think. Why do I need that? I got my venmo what you know. So it's really interesting to see all of this play out, because now we're seeing use cases we're actually seeing something that there is no other mechanism to help these people.

D

You can get money directly in the hands of somebody who needs cash worldwide, so it is kind of exciting to just you know, I hate to say that, because this is all horrible stuff right, but it really hasn't been something that people have seen if you live here. You just say why. Why do I care? Most people, don't see the need so in some ways it's starting to crack that a little bit well,.

B

The mask is slipping, that's that's. What's happening, yeah.

A

B

It's always been there. It's always been that way. It's really easy to look back into like the 50s and 60s, if you're an american in the 70s and be like. Oh things were better back then, but we were still invading countries back. Then we were still fighting proxy wars. We were still printing money to infinity. You know all the same things were going on, then that are going on now. It's just now.

B

We have recourse in other options, and so I I thought it was funny too, though, with the with the trucker thing, where they're like oh we're, going after bitcoin accounts and almost like this propaganda of oh, you can't even go into crypto, because we're gonna seize your bitcoin and there's so many people that I know that have no idea about uh how bitcoin works. They think that you hold digital coins in a purse. You know and they're like.

B

Oh, the government can take that and it's like no, they can't they can go after an exchange and they can try.

A

B

An address, but that doesn't mean that you're gonna you can't transfer from that address to somebody that's willing to accept payment from you, like it's they're, really.

C

An excellent opportunity for education, because.

B

Everybody has been.

C

Like what's up with crypto, if the government can see it, it's like. Oh I'm glad you asked that question.

B

C

B

Really can you know, and I I get the same questions when people are like: how did they steal this bitcoin? Well, they didn't technically steal a person's bitcoin, a an exchange had their keys uh in a hot wallet and they stole the keys from the exchange.

B

That's what happened.

A

B

But it's very easy for people that don't know the technology to be like. Well, my bitcoin's not safe, you know and to them bitcoin is everything it's every cryptocurrency.

A

Yeah, you know yeah.

B

Ethereum is bitcoin: it's like going to the south and everything's coke. What kind of coke not to like! Even push on that! Just let.

D

Them you know until they until they're really interested.

C

Did you guys see the videos of the guy going around giving truckers like eight thousand dollars in bitcoin in an envelope he was just like, and did you guys see those those I.

A

Did not see that okay, so.

C

So there was so bch had their little flip starter and I think that raised a thousand bch, but the btc camp sort of did the same thing and they managed they just used a multi-sig wallet and like five trusted canadian bitcoiners um and they raised a significant amount. I don't remember how much it was off top made.

C

I think it was like half a million, and so, during the actual, um when the protest was going down in ottawa, uh the guy one guy who was in charge of distributing the money he was, he was physically going truck to truck and he had eight thousand dollars of bitcoin like in an envelope with like the paper wallet and instructions on how to like get a wallet and then scan sweep the tokens like everything that the trucker would need.

C

Who doesn't know a damn thing about bitcoin on how to like get their bitcoin and then spend their bitcoin and, um and so he was, uh they did a. What was cool. Is there? Was this one trucker in particular? Who was in the process of filming in the truck? And then this guy came and gave it to him? And and he was being filmed on the outside, so he got to see it from two different perspectives and it was, it was totally unplanned. It was just spontaneous and um yeah.

C

It was such, and so I was just I was telling my girlfriend I was like I was like man look at that they completely circumvented the system with nothing more than an envelope and a handshake. uh You know there wasn't an app to download. There was no internet required, they just they printed out what they needed on a paper. Wallet put it on an envelope and then physically delivered it to the people who needed it.

B

And david just posted a great little opinion piece in the telegram on ecash, and so you guys can check that out and if you are not on our telegram, it's t dot me forge slash. Is it ps foundation or permissionless software foundation.

C

It's permissionless underscore software.

B

So tdot me forward slash permissionless underscore software for those who want to follow the telegram yeah it's uh it was.

E

Just I I just put one link in the in the chat for you the this, this uh zoom chat when we close it, it will disappear. So if.

A

You want to copy.

B

Yeah, it was uh interesting having this trucker stuff go on uh being in eath denver. Seeing all these.

A

B

People um just so many different people working on the blockchain, but also there's, there's people that are just chasing chasing money. It seems like it seems, like a lot of the silicon valley is just pouring into the blockchain space. Now like they were.

C

B

C

I wanted to ask you about that: aaron is uh so not having attended and not, but it seemed like there's, obviously a lot of buzz, a lot of vc money and like hot tech stuff when east denver started. But then this whole canadian trucker thing kind of happened, and so I'm sure, like a lot of the talk and a lot of focus, moves to uh you know uh uncensorable money and communication and stuff like that.

C

Did it feel like a juxtaposition like, like everybody, was there for the hot tech and money, but then all of a sudden there's this like unavoidable, like social conversation that had to happen really or was, or did people go into it like yeah? We need to be on sensible money and.

B

It was a weird mixed bag. um I wouldn't say that things shifted so much as like uh people had talking points that they're like these are our talking points, and uh so I'm my buddy ryda. He does the show with stoian and I the roots up, uh and uh he started the cyber panther party uh and they're about like gestures, reform uh through technology. They cover like bail funds. uh His friend got wrongly uh accused of murder and was in jail for a year and a half awaiting trial, and so he stopped.

B

He started up this foundation to help people like him and uh they so they're, uh definitely in the minority communities or um how how they say it like the uh underprivileged class or whatever, and it was funny to everybody's talking about how I want to help the underprivileged class or the minorities or or xy you know, but nobody's really putting their their money where the mouth is. It seems like they they're. They just want to code away and be like now, they're helped.

B

You know, and meanwhile you know nobody's actually meeting with these people or doing things with these people, and I got to see it from the minority community's perspective and the frustration where it's like you're saying this and then you're you're doing another. So uh it was. There was a lot of that. There was some genuineness.

B

um Surprisingly, not as many people were talking about the truckers, as I thought would be. You know it was more like we gotta save the environment. You know, and meanwhile, there's like five dumpsters full of crap outside the you know the arena and those are some frustrating things where it was like a little bit of hypocrisy where it's like everybody I talked to was like we're not here to make money, then why? Why are you really here, like the.

C

Newspaper all this yeah.

B

It was, it was literally like we're, not we're not about money, we're about making change, and it's like, okay. Well, how are you making.

A

A lot of money.

B

Yeah, it was so many people are convinced that they got to make this change to the world. There's this global change, and I'm sitting here. Like start with your friends, you know start with your family start with your relationships you have, but that can be challenging to work with those relationships and it's much easier to work with the faceless, nameless world and think you're, making an impact.

C

Yeah yeah, I mean yeah. Well, that's uh that's a that's a good report. Man.

B

There was definitely plenty of good stuff there there's a lot of people celebrating, and there was a lot of people that are trying to do some. Some great things uh and a lot of it happened in the in the events going on around eat dinner because there was eat them and then there's a lot of events around eat denver, uh but there's just a lot of money flowing around and a lot of vcs chasing the next thing and some of it.

B

It's literally, was like watching silicon valley, if you've ever seen that show and like they're, just chasing after the dumbest things sometimes and you're like that, has nothing to do with anything. It's not going anywhere, but.

F

You know it's just seeking, after any sake,.

B

F

C

Doing silly things, because you think.

F

There's money in it and I mean.

C

E

To go to the nfts, it's like unbelievably crazy, like especially, and with this we will donate five uh like five percent of our profits to to something so buy our nft for one eat like okay, like yeah, you will make profit from this enough. I think.

B

Yeah there was a lot of that and a lot of nft talk, uh but it's still a lot in the the art phase. I mean there is some in the gaming phase polygons making a big push in that direction because they're cheaper, um but for how long you know if they get congested? How long are they going to be cheaper? I don't know um the 1155 standard makes it all easier to do some gamify stuff.

B

um There was a lot in the the vr ar stuff like that's starting to pick up, so that was cool to see. um There's a company I'm talking with on thursday called mr augmented and they're attempting to do uh augmented reality, but we're like uh you can see the same thing that other people are seeing and that, but that takes mapping the world and using computer vision that way.

B

C

Well, speaking of uh nft, something I wanted to to just share here, I I talked about this before we started recording but, and I'm going to talk about this more in the future, but this is just tickling me pink. I just love this idea, the more I think about it, but so I'm going to share my screen real, quick they're.

C

This is a prototype that I've shown before of our the mutable data specification for tokens. How, like you have the token icon on the top and then it shows the immutable data uh and then the mutable data so immutable. You can't change it static, fixed uh mutable. You can change it. So the idea there is that um it's like some of these opsec videos, I'm going to produce or have produced and going to produce more. I am planning on them getting the platform like I'm planning to to bd platform in the future.

C

I I think that if we are successful, then github will deep platform. Us uh youtube will de-platform us like like. If these things happen in the future, it will be a sign of the success of the permissionless software foundation um and so to sort of fight that day, platforming and that type of censorship.

C

What I this idea I came up with is to make to make those videos into an nft where the immutable portion, the portion, that's fixed at the time of the tokens, creation will have links to like the youtube and the rumble and the odyssey and the file coin upload so basically upload it to as many platforms as I can and then put those links into the the immutable portion which is like, I said, fixed and will never change and, uh and so like. The youtube is probably the most convenient.

C

So you provide that for convenience, but it's also the most likely to be de-platformed.

C

And so you know you go down the list until you get to like file coin or something that's like probably impossible to censor, and so what I'm thinking about doing once we get the decks up, is I'll offer these nfts for sale for like ten dollars and um and I'll use stoyan's code to basically make a really good to basically link all these nfts together, so that so that you can basically peruse the list of videos by perusing the list of benefits you don't actually have to own it.

C

So the content's free, the information, is free, and why so? Why would someone buy one of these mfts?

C

Well, the id my idea is- and this is what I'm excited to prove out- is that um if I make a video say on how to do end and encrypted chat, uh you know step by step directions and that gets de-platformed like that's gonna make the nft even more valuable and the person who owns the nft, which there can only be one, uh is sort of saying with their money that that I think this video is valuable and I'm going to be the steward of this nft.

C

That helps everybody, um you know get access to it and so that so, if the price of the nft rises, I think what that will show is that is that more people or there's more demand for the token and the reason there's more demand, for the token is because the video that that token represents um is seen as valuable and worthy of protecting and preserving.

C

So so it's it's. This weird idea of that, like price, reflects social desire to to protect the content. Yeah.

A

C

uh uh Remains to be seen if, if that that hypothesis hypothesis proves out with time.

B

Only way to find out is to put it out there. Yeah.

E

Chris, you can, you can take uh take a look on. The ave recently is doing great stuff. You know about their lens protocol.

C

I've heard it in passing, but yeah tell me about it.

E

So it's basically they expanding this idea. They want to make something like a social media where everything is nft. Your profile is nft. Your social connections are nft, everything will be nft, so it will be pretty much decentralized in every way. So you can take maybe some of their codes, because it will be again connecting media to nft like this social graph yeah, and so you can combine it with your idea about the videos and make yeah something really interesting.

C

I mean that's, that's definitely where my thinking is going as well. Is it like everything becomes an nft like, like these nfts, become like the next social social media platform? Essentially.

E

Yeah, it's just lens protocol ave, it's still very new. It's still like working on these days, not even the real uh site. It's just ideas, some like prototypes, no interesting stuff, yeah I'll.

C

Check them out because, like I've heard of them, but like yeah, this idea transcends any particular technology, so definitely want to read up on their thoughts around that we.

B

Have a darwin evo in the chat says, wish I was there, I think he's talking about eth denver and uh it was a d5 conference uh yeah. It totally was a d5 conference. uh It was just funny to have these people that are obviously in finance, be like this is not the real reason we're here. You know like we're. We're totally here to change the world, not make a lot of money, and you know I I talked to there was somebody I was like yeah. I want to. You, know, build this company and make money.

B

Well, money is not what I'm really about. How do how do you pay your bills? Then you know like so yeah yeah yeah.

C

B

Conference but it was, I'm still still digesting a lot of the stuff that I experienced there so.

C

Yeah yeah, I mean I think this is. This has been a thing in the entire crypto industry, where it's like there's this idea that oh social justice and money's the root of all evil- and uh it's like about it's obviously about money. But it's not about money, and it's like.

A

C

Everybody's, so bipolar, and no and very few people are just in the media middle where it's like. This is about money. This is literally about money and I need to make money, um but I also want to you know, change the system and I believe in social justice as well like you, don't it doesn't have to be an either or thing.

B

Yeah yeah, I I see that a lot that either or type of thing, but you know also to say, uh even though it was a d5 conference. Nfts- were everything they talked about everybody's, doing an nft everybody's, creating an nft everybody's, making nfts they're, gonna nft the world, and uh you know it's um they it's weird to see which protocols they're trying to use. uh I I would like to see more function like now that the slp database is going up.

B

I think uh that gives a good use case for nfts on the bch side and I'm gonna experiment with that, as well with a different um with different json and see. If I can get the 3d aspect working on the uh bch side like I got it working on the ethereum side, you know so that you can actually pull up uh stuff into the browser and and interact with 3d objects with uh slp nft.

C

Very cool yeah I'd love to see that yeah. I think um the that slp mutable data library needs needs to a few. More things need to fall into place before someone like you should should get too deep into it, but.

A

Yeah I was looking at it decided to.

C

Help you with that.

A

Quite a lot of a lot of things to track when keeping keeping up with the ipfs like uh an ipn, as is it like the the content and then trying to figure out where, where you're putting your stuff, you know your.

C

Yeah um yeah, I don't know like I've, heard that they made improvements with ipfs, but I pretty much just or ipns, and um I pretty much avoid it um because it's usually, especially with the infrastructure, we're building, um it's usually faster, just to look it up on the bch blockchain to like to like to basically uh fulfill the feature. That is that ipns does you can just do the same thing on the bitcoin cash chain? So that's almost like.

C

If you go to paperwallet.fullstack.cache, you can see what I'm talking about where it'll just throw up a splash page and then it'll look up on the bitcoin cash blockchain. What the current the most up-to-date version of the thing is on file coin and then it'll forward you to the filecoin web page yeah.

B

Because that's how you did your website that way too right.

C

Yeah yeah, and so that's essentially the feature. The the you know. Ipns is the ability to basically something that you can update that points to an ipfs file. That's what I'm using the bitcoin cash blockchain.

B

It was the only problem, is it's just been traditionally slow to resolve, um but like what chris is talking about sam? I don't know if you saw where he did the uh website through web3 dot storage, we had an html page and then the html page reference to transaction uh for the most recent uh blog post data. That's very similar to the immutable uh protocol. For the token where it's you, the token will have an ipfs uh payload and then that will reference a transaction to look for the updated information on the token, essentially wow.

B

C

Another little thing that I've developed just in the last few days. There is so I because in in this file coin web 3 world, where everything's content addressed. If you send someone a link, the link is static.

C

So, if you update the page like on my blog, if I send somebody a link to my blog, like one of my blog articles and then I go back- and I I edit that they're not gonna, know because they're looking at an old static version of of the thing and that's the nice thing about location-based addressing in web 2- is that all just not automatically handles itself? So I created a a component, a react component on my blog.

C

So if someone's looking at an older version of the of like a blog post, it'll pop up a big red thing in the top saying this is a this is an old version like click here, to go to the new version. um So that's kind of that's kind of cool, because this is like a new pro like. This is a problem that content address. Address content has that location based content does not have.

B

Yeah and it's it's a something that I'm constantly studying it as well as because my goal is to release uh you know: 3d content, 3d assets and things like that. Well, how do you update them? How do you? How do you work with them?

B

um You know the one of my big questions right now that I have to just sit down and take time to do is like what does the size of the file need to be to uh pop up on openc in marketplaces fast enough, and then how do I deliver the full size file to somebody that buys it so they can 3d print or do 3d modeling in in blunder or zbrush or anything like that, and what is the best way to go about that uh with you know, slp, I you know I can easily just attach, and in uh you know, in the the write into the line, the hash of the ipfs for display great and then I can use that same address if they buy it to airdrop a token quite easily with ethereum.

B

You can do the same thing. It just costs more and and there's a little bit more involved.

C

Yeah so there's you know, that's that's a good way to do it of just being able to essentially air like that token becomes like a homing beacon, and so you.

A

C

Updates, but also with this mutable data spec, if you push an update like so there's the token and then there's the address, that controls the mutable data and you as a creator would would retain that, and so, um if you needed to push an update, that would automatically happen like nobody would need to do anything. You wouldn't necessarily need to do anything other than just push the update, yeah.

A

C

And and when people interact with that token, it would just automatically use the most recent data.

B

See- and I I like that idea for uh like code calls uh eventually, you know.

E

Complicated topic, because sometimes maybe you don't want to use the last version like the seer guys, they're doing uh very interesting stuff. When I check this home screen, you can how to see copy the whole like javascript code to you, and it will show you that it's updated, but it it's up to you to update. So it's required action from your site. It will be not always pointing to the last version. It will point to the one that you want.

C

Yeah, that's a good point and actually that's totally possible with this mutable data spec, because what you're actually looking at is this transaction history of the address with filecoin uh hashes. So you can always get back to a previous version and every previous version is important because documents.

E

C

E

Mistake with the last one you need to be able to go back. One version, maybe.

B

Well, all you all you'd have to do with in that case is uh broadcast a transaction with the previous ipfs hash and then.

A

B

Revert uh and then another thing that I I was thinking about as you're talking like okay, if I sell this thing, I could also essentially sell ownership of the uh transition by putting uh so it looks at that that wallet address for the transaction and then, if I put another transaction with json script in it that says. Okay, now look at this wallet address. Yes, it becomes a chain, but I could essentially uh sell that or give that to whoever owns the asset to create.

A

B

Yeah uh to continue on with the mutable data, you know.

C

Yeah I mean this gets back to the trust merchant idea yeah, which is like you know, as a creator. You want to retain this, but maybe you're, not tech savvy. So you want to you want to hire that out, yep and then and then yeah and then like what you just said like there could be a whole secondary market for for just that, mutable. The ability to change the mutable data.

B

Yeah yeah there it's a lot of things to think about when it comes to selling products and services. This way- and I think it is all heading this direction- it's just. uh How do we figure it out? uh What's the best process? What's gonna work best for people, um different industries are gonna, have different use cases and I think they're gonna be using different chains for those different use cases.

B

So it's it's just you know understanding those protocols and being able to uh to operate fast and and evolve fast as it evolves.

C

All right guys: well, it's been about an hour and 15 minutes. I think we should wrap this up.

B

C

Does anybody have any closing thoughts before we call it a day?

C

Okay? Well, I just want you guys know. I really appreciate your attendance and the couple people have already dropped off like just really the more the mayor really appreciate, particularly not the quantity but the quality. I really appreciate all you guys, you guys all really bring something to the table and that's why I appreciate you being here.

B

Well, we appreciate you chris shame yep, it's likewise yeah sam good to have you on today. Man thanks, I'm gonna hit the transition, and then we can uh rap a little bit afterwards.