►
Description
The Joint Committees on Finance & Transportation and Public Utilities of the Council of the City of Philadelphia held a Public Hearing on Friday, April 29, 2022, at 9:00 AM to hear testimony on the following items:
210653 Resolution authorizing the Committee on Finance and the Committee on Transportation and Public Utilities to conduct joint hearings regarding the sustainability and diversification of the Philadelphia Gas Works.
B
Morning
today
is
friday
april
29th.
This
is
the
joint
committee
on
finance
and
transportation.
Public
utilities,
I'm
councilmember
at
large,
derek
greene,
the
chair
of
the
finance
committee.
I
want
to
thank
all
of
you
for
being
with
us
this
morning.
I
understand
that
state
law
currently
requires
that
the
filing
announcement
being
being
made
at
the
beginning
of
every
remote
public
hearing
as
follows.
B
Excuse
me
instruction
for
how
the
public
may
view
and
offer
public
testimony
at
public
hearings
of
council
committees
are
included
in
the
public
hearing,
notices
that
are
published
in
the
daily
news,
inquirer
and
legal
tens
intelligentsia
prior
to
the
hearings
and
can
also
be
found
on
phl
council
dot
com.
I
now
know
that
the
hour
has
come
for
the
beginning
of
this
hearing.
Mr
inusey.
We
please
call
the
roll
take
attendance.
B
D
B
B
I
am
president
as
well.
Thank
you
all
of
my
colleagues
that
are
here
we
are
now.
I
have
a
quorum
of
this
committee
who
are
with
the
council
members
who
are
present,
and
this
hearing
is
now
formally
called
to
order.
This
is
a
joint
public
hearing
of
the
committees
on
finance
and
transportation.
Public
utilities
regarding
resolution
number
two
one:
zero,
six,
five
three,
mr
I
news
will
you
please
read
the
title
of
the
resolution.
B
Thank
you,
mr
ainuzzi,
before
we
begin
to
hear
testimony
from
the
witnesses
we
have
here
for
today,
everyone
who
has
been
invited
to
this
meeting
to
testify
should
be
aware
that
this
public
hearing
is
being
recorded
because
the
hearing
is
published.
Participants
and
viewers
should
have
no
reasonable
expectation
of
privacy.
B
By
continuing
to
be
in
the
meeting,
you
are
consenting
to
being
recorded
additionally
prior
to
recognizing
members
for
questions
or
comments
they
have
for
witnesses.
I
will
note
for
the
record
at
this
time
that
we
will
use
the
chat
feature
available
in
microsoft
teams
to
allow
members
to
signify
that
they
wish
to
be
recognized
in
order
to
comply
with
the
sunshine
act.
The
chat
feature
must
only
be
used
for
this
purpose.
B
I
B
H
You
very
much,
mr
chair.
I
wanted
to
make
sure
that
it's
an
appropriate
time,
but
I
appreciate
you're
allowing
me
some
time-
and
I
wanted
to
most
of
all
thank
you
for
reconvening
this
discussion
to
ensure
that
all
stakeholders
have
an
opportunity
to
have
their
voices
heard
on
the
critical
issue
of
sustainability
and
diversification
for
pgw.
H
You
know,
I
know
that
and
I'm
I'm
very
much
looking
forward
to
listening
to
the
testimony
today.
You
know
we
have
many
goals
that
we
have
to
meet,
ensuring
that
all
philadelphians
have
the
energy
that
they
need
for
a
dignified
life
at
an
affordable
rate.
We
have
to
protect
our
residents
health.
We
have
a
commitment
to
eliminate
the
use
of
fossil
fuels
by
2050
at
a
minimum,
and
we
must
protect
and
create
and
expand
union
jobs
and
ensure
that
workers
aren't
left
behind.
H
But
one
of
the
things
that's
also
really
clear
is
we
have
to
reject
the
false
choices
that
we
can
only
achieve
some
of
these
goals
or
that
these
goals
have
to
be
sacrificed.
You
know
at
four
timelines.
The
objective
here
is
to
figure
out
how
to
accomplish
these
objectives
together,
ensuring
that
residents
have
affordable
heating
that
doesn't
harm
our
planet
and
pose
health
risks.
At
the
same
time,
this
is
an
extraordinarily
complicated
issue,
there's
no
question,
but
that
does
not
mean
that
we
have
the
luxury
to
move
slowly.
H
So
what
I'm
looking
forward
to
hearing
from
some
of
our
testifiers
today
is
what
comes
next?
There's
no
question
that
pgw
has
to
make
investments
this
year
to
prepare
for
a
network,
geothermal
pilot
that
focuses
on
identifying
sites
to
maximize
benefits,
to
low-income
philadelphians,
to
neighborhoods
in
need
and
maximizes
the
involvement
of
pgw
workers
and
their
union.
H
I'm
also
looking
to
hear
about
how
pgw
will
establish
and
share
a
business
plan
that
is
actually
aligned
to
the
city's
goal
of
reaching
climate
neutrality
by
2050,
and
this
should
absolutely
include
interim
targets
and
annual
goals.
We
are
not
going
to
get
to
a
sustainable
climate
future
without
actually
charting
a
path
that
includes
specific
actions
and
commitments
along
the
way,
each
and
every
year,
no
longer
five-year
10-year
plans,
but
each
and
every
year.
H
H
Legislation
like
sb
275,
in
which
pgw
had
active
involvement
is
this
is
expressly
against
the
city's
best
interest.
It
seeks
to
limit
our
authority
as
a
municipality
and
prohibit
our
ability,
our
ability
to
enact
future
climate
laws
when
we
convened
in
february.
Pgw's
leadership
failed
to
make
clear
their
commitment
that
moving
forward.
They
would
oppose
efforts
like
sb
275
that
exist
in
contradiction
to
the
city
of
philadelphia
that
has
to
change.
H
Pgw
should
come
out
publicly
against
efforts
like
sb
275,
as
this
council
has,
as
our
city
has,
and
it
must
pass
new
policies
that
govern
their
responsibility
and
conduct
to
ensure
that
these
types
of
actions
no
longer
impact
our
city
and
our
ability
to
chart
our
own
future.
We
are
one
city,
we're
one
entity
seeking
common
interests.
H
I
have
yet
to
hear
a
commitment
from
pgw's
leadership
that
they
will
take
that
mission
seriously,
and
so
I'm
looking
forward
to
continuing
this
conversation
to
listening
to
our
panel
testifiers
and
want
to
express
tremendous
gratitude
to
the
testifiers
and
to
the
public
for
keeping
us
on
this
mission.
Thank
you
very
much.
B
Thank
you
before
we
start
with
the
first
witness.
I
want
to
thank
the
various
participants
who
are
here
this
morning
and
also
think
all
of
the
various
individuals
that
participated
in
the
diversification
study.
We
know
that
pdw
is
a
unique
entity.
It
is
the
largest
municipal
gas
utility.
Definitely
in
this
country,
probably
north
america,
if
not
in
the
world,
so
we
have
a
very
challenging
dynamic
of
how
do
we
transition
pgw
from
the
entity
that
it
currently
is
to
an
entity
into
the
future.
B
Many
who
are
just
learning
about
some
of
the
opportunities
that
we're
presenting
for
them,
but
also
many
of
those
same
customers
have
challenges
in
just
putting
food
on
the
table
or
making
sure
they
have
a
sustainable
home
as
well
as
being
able
to
provide
for
their
family
members
and
their
relatives.
So
we
have
a
very
challenging
balance
of
how
we
move
forward
a
utility
that
has
a
number
of
rate
payers
who
are
moderate
to
low
income,
but
at
the
same
point,
how
do
we
move
forward
this
entity
and
transform
this
entity
going
forward
as
well?
B
The
fact
that
we
have
a
unionized
workforce
that
needs
to
maintain
good
family,
sustaining
wages
as
we
go
forward.
So
this
is
a
a
complex
issue,
a
challenging
issue,
I'm
very
fortunate
that
we
have
in
our
city
a
number
of
individuals
who
are
committed
on
addressing
this
issue
and
helping
us
to
move
philadelphia.
Gas
works
forward.
Some
people
may
not
realize
that
pgw
started
in
1836
really
as
a
lighting
company,
where
gas
was
used
to
really
light
the
city
and
it
moved
from
a
lighting
company
to
being
a
heating
company.
B
So
the
fact
that
this
entity
has
already
made
two
types
of
transitions
gives
me
the
perspective
that
in
the
history
and
dna
of
pgw
we
have
transformed
this
entity.
I
look
forward
to
this
entity
transforming
again
into
a
future
that
is
much
more
sustainable
with
all
the
complexities
and
challenges
that
we
had
before
us.
So
this
is
a
complex
challenge.
The
diversification
study
that
pgw
undertook,
along
with
the
office
of
sustainability,
as
well
as
the
foot
up
energy
authority,
puts
us
on
that
path.
B
In
addition,
I
believe
that
the
investment
infrastructure
and
jobs
act
provides
another
opportunity
to
provide
additional
resources
and
dollars
to
help
move
pgw
forward.
We've
had
some
a
lot
of
different
conversations
and
up
and
discussions
regarding
some
of
the
ideas
that
came
out
of
the
diversification
study.
B
To
me,
the
goal
of
this
conversation
is
to
continue
that
dialogue
and
there's
been
other
movement.
That's
been
happening
within
pgw
to
look
at
these
opportunities
going
forward,
as
well
as
some
other
organizations
that
I
think
will
help
us,
principally
with
the
geothermal
initiative,
to
help
pgw
move
forward
into
that
perspective.
So
I
thank
you
all
for
your
commitment,
investment
of
the
most
precious
resource
that
you
have,
which
is
time
to
this
issue,
as
we
continue
on
this
conversation.
B
B
Senator
saval,
thank
you
for
being
with
us
this
morning.
I
know
you
have
a
lot
of
resources
at
the
commonwealth
level
and
hopefully,
you'll
bring
some
of
those
resources
here
to
philadelphia.
I
know
you're
working
on
that,
in
spite
of
some
of
the
challenges
you're
dealing
with
other
members
of
the
general.
C
Well,
thank
you,
mr
chairman.
We
are
indeed
working.
I
appreciate
the
the
opportunity
to
speak
with
you
all.
So
thank
you
to
the
members
council
members.
Thank
you
to
the
members
of
the
the
finance
and
transportation
and
public
utilities
committee.
It
is
a
pleasure
to
be
here
with
you
all.
Thank
you
so
much
for
the
invitation
to
be
part
of
this.
C
As
you
know,
my
district
lies
entirely
within
philadelphia
county
and
my
work
to
meet
the
needs
of
philadelphia
residents
directly
intersects
with
yours,
and
I'm
always
grateful
for
opportunities
to
collaborate
specific
to
this
morning.
Thinking
critically
on
the
future
of
pgw
provides
us
with
a
wholly
unique
opportunity
to
think
toward
deliberate
action
to
build
the
world
philadelphia
residents
want
the
world
philadelphia
residents
need
for
years.
C
Philadelphia
has
had
the
heartbreaking
distinction
of
being
one
of
the
poorest
big
cities
in
the
united
states,
nearly
a
quarter
of
our
residents
living
in
poverty,
as
representatives
elected
to
represent
our
people
and
our
communities.
I
know
this
to
be
a
fact,
of
course,
of
which
you
are
all
deeply
aware
and
that
you
are
committed
to
changing.
C
I
stand
with
you
in
the
work
of
building
communities
in
which
all
our
residents
have
what
they
need
to
thrive,
and
I'm
glad
to
be
here
to
discuss
my
current
initiative
towards
this
end,
which
is
passing
the
whole
home
repairs
act.
Our
commonwealth
has
some
of
the
oldest
housing
stock
in
the
nation.
More
than
280
000
occupied
units
in
the
commonwealth
have
moderate
to
severe
physical
inadequacies,
including
leaky,
roofs
or
windows,
blown
fuses
or
exposed
wiring,
unreliable
heat
or
even
the
lack
of
a
flushing
toilet.
C
These
deferred
maintenance
issues
endanger
the
health
of
the
home's
residents,
including
through
exposure
to
mold
and
lead,
and
these
older
homes
are
notoriously
hard
to
keep
warm
in
the
winter
and
cool
in
the
summer,
with
extreme
temperatures
putting
residents
at
additional
risk,
while
simultaneously
burdening
them
with
crushing
utility
bills
in
philadelphia.
We
know
that
low-income
households
spend
an
average
of
23
percent
of
their
incomes
on
utility
bills,
while
nearly
three-quarters
of
low
to
moderate
income,
households
who
apply
for
home
repair
loans
are
denied
by
conventional
lenders.
C
C
Our
housing
crisis,
in
other
words,
and
our
climate
crisis,
are
inextricable
the
fight
for
affordable
utilities,
the
fight
for
safe
communities,
the
fight
for
housing,
security
and
the
fight
for
equity
and
justice
in
our
systems
are
all
the
same
fight.
This
is
the
genesis
of
the
whole
home
repairs
act.
A
sweeping
bipartisan
bill
that
I
introduced
to
establish
a
one-stop
shop
for
home
repairs
and
weatherization,
while
creating
new
family
sustaining
jobs
in
a
growing
field.
C
This
bill
is
the
first
of
its
kind
in
the
nation
allowing
pennsylvanians
to
stay
warm,
safe
and
dry
in
homes
they
can
afford
and
providing
communities
with
the
means
to
fight
the
devastating
effects
of
displacement,
instability
and
blight
all
at
once.
In
short,
the
goal
of
the
whole
home
repairs
act
is
to
make
our
communities
resilient.
C
This
bill
will
benefit
hundreds
of
thousands
of
pennsylvania
residents,
including
many
who
live
right
here
in
our
city.
I
know
that
each
and
every
city
council
member
rejects
poverty
is
a
defining
characteristic
of
our
city
and
to
change
this
paradigm.
We
must
take
bold
action.
We
need
investment
in
our
communities.
We
need
money
with
no
strings
attached
to
go
to
low-income
households
to
alleviate
their
energy
burdens
and
make
their
homes
safe
to
live
in
not
burden
them
with
more
debt.
C
We
can
push
back
against
poverty
by
infusing
our
communities
with
the
funding
they
need
to
become
resilient.
People
across
the
country
are
struggling
under
the
protracted
hardships
of
the
pandemic,
and
pennsylvania
can
be
a
national
leader
in
helping
our
residents
recover.
We
can
fix
our
homes
and
we
can
build
our
local
workforce
and
create
new
jobs.
While
we
do
it,
we
can
permanently
move
the
needle
on
our
affordable
housing
crisis
and
our
climate
crisis.
C
I
also
want
to
acknowledge
your
leadership,
mr
chairman,
in
your
support
of
philadelphia
energy
authorities
built
to
last
program
on
which
my
bill
has
been
modeled.
All
your
leadership
and
support
have
been
invaluable.
I
look
forward
to
the
work
we'll
do
together
to
fight
housing
and
security,
to
fight
environmental
and
climate
and
justice,
and
to
fight
against
the
systems
that
have
kept
philadelphians
locked
in
generational
poverty.
I
welcome
any
questions
that
you
have
on
this
bill
and
on
this
work.
Thank
you.
Thank
you
for
the
opportunity
to
be
here.
B
That
also
needs
to
be
addressed,
and
so
the
bill
to
last
program
was
initiative
to
try
to
bundle
all
those
vast
programs,
but
also
bring
in
some
additional
dollars,
and
senator
casey
also
provides
some
significant
dollars
for
the
energy
authority
to
really
get
bill
to
last
up
and
running.
I
guess
my
question
is
from
bill
to
last
to
what
you're
doing
with
your
initiative
and
legislation.
How
will
that
help
and
how
will
those
programs
work
together
collectively
here
in
philadelphia.
C
So,
thank
you,
mr
chairman.
It's
a
very
good
question.
I
think
you
know
we
have.
Essentially
you
know,
as
I
mentioned,
the
whole
home
repairs
act
is,
is
very
much
inspired
by
the
model
of
built
to
last.
So
again,
thank
you
for
your
leadership
on
that
and
and
to
the
philadelphia
energy
authority,
which
is
supportive
of
the
legislation.
C
C
C
In
addition
to
all
the
coordination
that
we
want
to
do
they
they
sort
of
imagine
that
this
would
be
able
to
allow
them
to
sort
of
scale
up
the
program
as
they
currently
have
it.
So
you
know,
basically,
this
would
provide
a
significant
additional
boost
in
funding.
Allow
us
to
do
many
more
houses
and
at
a
scale
that
we
currently
are
not
able
to
do
it
for
homeowners,
as
well
as
for
tenants.
B
I'm
thinking
of
the
fact
that
you
know,
through
my
term
as
president
of
pennsylvania,
municipal
league,
there
are
a
number
of
cities
around
the
commonwealth
and
I'm
thinking
of
you
know,
mayor
page
cogniti
and
scranton
or
janine
sriracha
in
lancaster
or
mayor
derrick,
slaughter
and
williamsport.
All
are
cities
that
are,
you
know
smaller
in
size
than
the
city
of
philadelphia,
but
many
of
the
cities
in
the
commonwealth.
B
Pennsylvania
are
third
class
cities
that
have
roughly
about
a
hundred
thousand
residents,
but
have
a
lot
of
the
same
similar
issues
that
we
have
in
philadelphia
with
very,
very
old
housing
stock.
And
you
know
many
citizens
who
are
much
low
income.
Who
may
not
have
the
resources
to
make
their
home
more
sustainable,
to
look
at
ways
of
diversifying
the
energy
that
they're
using.
So
has
there
been
any
outreach
from
your
understanding?
C
Thank
you,
mr
chairman,
that
that
it's
an
excellent
point,
and
I
think
it
would
be
very
welcome.
So
I'll
just
mention
that
you
know
in
in
launching
the
the
legislation
we
did
travel
to
a
sort
of
road
show
for
whole
home
repairs.
We
went
to
reading
lancaster
allentown
in
addition
to
philadelphia,
and
we
have
you
know
we.
C
Also,
the
majority
chairman
of
the
appropriations
committee
was
what
was
the
the
first
republican
to
sign
on
in
support
of
the
legislation
senator
dan
lachlan,
who
represents
erie
county
and,
of
course,
the
city
of
erie,
also
supported
this
legislation,
senator
elder
vogel,
who
represents
parts
of
western
pennsylvania,
a
number
of
smaller
townships
and
pros
out
there
and
senator
david
argell
who
actually
has
worked
on
this
represents
school
club
county
but
has
worked
on
this.
You
know
across
across
the
state
these
issues
of
this
kind
also
supportive
of
this.
C
So
we
have
a
lot
of
the
kind
of
legislators
who
are
supportive
of
this
issue,
but
you're
quite
right.
It
would
actually
be
in
addition
to
this.
This,
the
support
in
the
general
assembly
having
councils
and
the
like
city
councils
following
the
lead
of
philadelphia
would
be
welcome.
We
have
had
some
outreach
from
the
the
administration
in
scranton
from
and
we've
had
outreach
from,
for
example,
the
medville
city
council
in
crawford
county.
C
B
Well,
thank
you
and
what
I
will
do
is
at
our
next
executive
committee
meeting,
which
will
be
in
may
I'll,
bring
this
up
to
the
pennsylvania
municipal
league
to
see
if
we
can
get
the
league
to
be
supportive
of
your
legislation,
especially
considering
that
some
of
the
mayors
of
our
executive
committee
are
mayors
of
cities
that
you've
already
visited.
So
we
will
move
forward
in
that
regard.
I'd
like
to
recognize
councilmember
jones
for
comments.
J
Thank
you,
mr
chairman,
and
to
our
esteemed
panelists.
I
do
own
a
suit,
but
it
is
my
annual
block,
captain's
boot
camp
and
I
will
be
required
to
do
duties
such
as
unpacking
tables.
So
I
wanted
to
be
a
part
of
this.
Nonetheless,
I
want
to
first
recognize
our
chairman
for
his
work,
as
within
the
gas
commission
and
being
very
focused
on
how
we
move
the
entity
into
the
future.
J
J
C
Well,
just
speaking
to
the
the
the
you
know,
one
of
the
things
that
I
in
in
this
in
the
legislation
that
we
are
considering,
I
mean
I
think
we
want
to
reduce
energy
use
across
the
board.
So
we
you
know
we
we
would
want
to
the
the
whole
home
repairs
act
in
particular.
Again
following
you
know,
extended
the
model
that
we
we
have
started
to
establish
here
in
philadelphia
would
just
reduce
energy
burdens.
C
You
know,
especially
in
particular,
for
low
to
moderate
income,
homeowners
and
tenants
across
the
board,
so
reliance
on
gas
altogether
or
you
know
or
or
a
reliance
on
you
know
on,
for
example,
many
people
may
not
even
have
access
to
gas
heaters
and
maybe
using
space
heaters,
and
you
know
and
the
like,
we,
and
so
I
think
I
think
that
we
have,
which
is
itself
potentially
very
dangerous,
not
an
efficient
way
to
heat.
Your
home
can
often
result
in
high
electricity
bills
and
the
like.
C
You
know
we
want
to
reduce
energy
burdens
across
the
board.
So
I
think
that
that
has
you
know
that
that
is
good
for
the
climate
that
is
good
for
low
to
moderate
income
homeowners,
and
that
is
good.
You
know
in
in
sort
of
geopolitical
terms
as
well.
I
think
that
you
know
all
of
this
across
the
board.
J
Thank
you,
mr
chairman.
I
just
wanted
to
get
that.
I
understand
the
micro
and
the
macro,
the
less
we
use
at
the
urban
and
at
risk
levels.
The
more
we
keep
people
in
homes,
energy
utility
bills,
will
make
you
as
homeless
as
not
paying
your
mortgage.
I
get
it,
but
as
we
look
to
the
future,
we
we
have
to
look
as
well
globally
on
to
see
if
there
is
going
to
be
a
greater
demand
worldwide
and
what
that
does
to
us.
B
Seeing
none,
I
also
like
to
note
for
the
record
that
council
member
david
o
is
also
present
for
this
hearing.
So
thank
you,
councilmember,
oh
senators,
about
thank
you
for
your
work
and
leadership.
This
initiative
that
you're
doing
is
very
important
because
we're
looking
to
not
only
diversify
phw
the
opportunity
for
other
constituents
around
the
commonwealth
of
pennsylvania
to
have
a
more
sustainable
home
is
important,
and
the
work
you're
doing
with
your
legislation
will
make
that
happen.
B
So
that
way
they
will
be
using
less
energy
and
will
have
a
better
opportunity
to
diversify
their
own
energy,
even
though
it
may
not
be
coming
from
pgw.
So
thank
you
for
your
leadership.
Look
forward
to
working
with
you
and
getting
support
for
your
legislation
through
the
pennsylvania
municipal
league.
So
thank
you
for
being
with
us
this
morning.
B
B
F
Present
here
with
us
today,
as
well
as
the
citizens
of
philadelphia,
I
am
bishop
dwayne,
royster,
executive
director
of
power,
interfaith
the
state
of
pennsylvania's
largest
faith-based
organizing
movement
powers,
a
multi-racial,
multi-faith
multi-issue,
organizing
movement
working
for
racial
and
economic
justice
on
a
livable
planet.
We
were
founded
and
are
still
deeply
rooted
to
this
date
in
the
city
of
philadelphia.
F
The
members
of
in
the
leaders
of
power
have
a
pgw
just
transition
strategy
team
that
have
been
working
with
allies
across
the
city
to
win
policies
that
turn
pgw
into
a
company
that
provides
heating
and
cooling
without
the
use
of
fossil
fuels.
At
a
pace
that
matches
the
urgency
of
the
climate
crisis
guarantees
all
philadelphians
the
energy
they
need
at
rates
they
can
afford,
protects
the
public
health
preserves
and
creates
good
union
jobs.
F
At
the
same
time,
we're
working
to
guarantee
everyone
healthy,
affordable
homes,
senator
chaval's,
whole
homes.
Repair
act
is
a
key
part
of
that
effort,
and
we
are
part
of
the
coalition
that
is
working
to
pass.
That
bill.
We've
often
been
told
that
we
need
to
choose
between
essential
needs
that
we
can
ensure
affordability
and
enact
a
rapid
shift
from
fossil
fuels
to
renewable
energy
at
the
same
time
or
that
we
can't
protect
workers
while
averting
climate
catastrophe.
F
F
F
We
are
seeking
investments
that
make
life
better
for
the
working
class
majority,
especially
african
american
latinx
asian
pacific
islanders,
indigenous
folk
biracial
folk
who
are
harmed
most
by
current
policies,
while
protecting
a
livable
climate,
we're
aiming
to
build
a
healthier,
safer
city
with
affordable
energy
bills,
comfortable
homes,
more
good
jobs
and
we're
not
asking
our
city
to
sacrifice
for
the
sake
of
the
planet.
The
fact
that
pgw
is
publicly
owned
gives
us
a
huge
opportunity
and
we
must
take
it.
F
F
We
need
a
comprehensive,
transparent
process
for
planning
pgw's
future
as
we
do
for
philadelphia's
future,
and
we
need
you
city,
council,
to
mandate
through
legislation
that
pgw's
budgets
and
business
plans
match
the
city's
climate
goals
on
the
way.
To
that
longer
term
objective,
we
bring
a
couple
of
urgent
requests
to
you
today.
First,
we
need
your
immediate
action
to
advance
the
most
promising
option
for
pgw
that
is
identified
in
the
business
diversification
report.
F
Thermal
networks
also
known
as
network
geothermal
heating
and
cooling
systems
by
building
and
operating
electric
powered
thermal
network
systems
pgw,
can
provide
affordable
heating
and
cooling
without
fossil
fuels
and
preserve
good
union
jobs.
Let
me
just
say
this
again:
you
can
provide
affordable
heating
and
cooling
without
fossil
fuels
and
preserve
good
union
jobs.
Now
we
recognize
this
is
not
a
complete
solution,
but
it
holds
a
great
deal
of
promise
and
we
need
to
get
moving
on
it
now.
We
know
how
things
take,
sometimes
years
decades
to
be
able
to
come
to
fruition.
F
We
need
to
make
sure
that
we
start
doing
this
today.
Secondly,
we
need
to
begin
planning
thermal
network
pilot
projects
as
soon
as
possible
and
we
need
to
ensure
that
the
planning
is
done
in
a
transparent,
participatory
manner.
The
only
way
city
council
can
ensure
that
happens
is
by
requiring
that
the
necessary
funds
be
allocated
specifically
for
these
purposes.
Third,
in
june,
council
will
vote
on
an
ordinance
to
approve
pdw's
financial
year
2023
capital
budget,
as
a
part
of
that
ordinance,
power
and
33.
F
Other
organizations
are
asking
council
to
require
pgw
to
allocate
500
000
to
advanced
engineering
work
that
is
needed
to
plan
thermal
network
pilot
projects.
We're
looking
forward
to
talking
more
with
council
members
about
this
request
in
the
weeks
to
come,
and
fourth,
we
do
not
support
the
other
projects
named
in
the
business
diversification
report.
We
ask
that
council
not
support
on
bill
financing
for
weatherizing
low
income
residence
homes,
though
of
course
weatherization,
is
extremely
important.
F
F
It's
important
for
all
council
members
to
know
that
pgw
has
just
again
asked
the
philadelphia
gas
commission
to
change
its
budget
review
process
to
block
intervenors
like
power
from
cross-examining
pgw
witnesses
and
requesting
documents
from
pgw
pgw
made
a
similar
attempt
to
block
power
from
fully
participating
in
the
capital
budget
review
process
earlier
this
year.
These
attempts
by
pgw
to
fight
transparency
and
public
participation
are
unacceptable.
F
Secondly,
the
city
should
clearly
and
unambiguously
instruct
pgw
to
stop
trying
to
restrict
public
participation
in
its
budget
proceedings
and
to
welcome
it
instead,
because
navigating
a
dressed
transition
for
pgw
will
take
all
of
us
to
be
able
to
make
it
happen.
This
is
a
critical
moment
in
key
speeches
in
the
1960.
Dr
king
constantly
invoked
this
theme
of
the
fierce
urgency
of
now.
F
That
phase
phrase
applies
here
in
2022,
the
climate
crisis
intensifying
and
those
who
have
the
least
wealth
and
power
are
harmed.
The
most
now
is
the
moment
for
fierce
urgency,
and
we
are
counting
on
your
leadership
to
do
the
right
thing.
Thank
you
very
much.
I
appreciate
the
opportunity
to
come
and
share
this
day.
F
B
You
bishop
royster,
for
your
testimony
and
being
so
personal
in
providing
that
information.
That's
something
that
many
citizens
in
the
city
of
philadelphia
are
dealing
with.
We're
gonna,
hear
from
all
the
witnesses
and
then
we'll
then
have
council
members
ask
questions
and
we'll
acknowledge
council
member
bass.
As
the
first
question
from
members
of
council
peter
winslow,
then
steve
luxton
and
then
canisius
scott.
K
My
name
is
peter
winslow
p-e-t-e-r-w-I-n-s-l-o-w,
I'm
a
resident
of
northwest
philadelphia.
Thank
you,
chairman
greene
and
members
of
the
joint
committee
for
this
opportunity
to
speak
with
you
regarding
sustainability
and
diverse
diversification
with
respect
to
the
philadelphia
gas
works.
I
appreciate
and
thoroughly
endorse
the
comments
that
have
been
made
by
council
members,
gim,
green
and
jones,
by
senator
saval
and
by
bishop
royster
I'll,
do
my
best
not
to
be
repetitive
today
I'll
leave
to
others,
discussion
of
the
opportunities
provided
by
geothermal
and
other
technologies.
K
K
K
The
newly
defined
mission
is
to
quote,
enhance
the
quality
of
life
and
promote
business
development
in
our
community
by
meeting
philadelphia's
energy
needs.
Unquote.
Thank
you.
Pgw
meeting
philadelphia's
energy
needs.
That's
succinct,
congratulations!
Pgw!
With
the
help
of
one
rivet,
you
have
crafted
a
mission
statement
to
motivate
your
employees,
elevate
your
customers
and
inform
your
strategic
thinking.
K
So
here's
the
new
vision
to
quote
provide
a
pathway
to
a
thriving
and
cleaner
future
through
innovative
energy
solutions.
Close
quote
thanks
again,
the
new
vision
statement
describes
the
transition
from
reliance
on
fossil
fuels
that
the
environmental
justice
community
is
demanding,
since
we
all
share
the
values
that
underlie
these
new
statements
of
mission
and
vision
for
pgw,
we
should
now
be
collaborating
to
analyze
our
problems
to
explore
our
opportunities
to
find
mutually
agreed
upon
solutions.
K
So
why
does
the
environmental
justice
community
feel
that
this
conversation
is
confrontational
rather
than
collaborative?
Why
is
pgw
resisting,
rather
than
leading
changes
and
innovations?
Why
isn't
pgw
more
transparent
and
more
forthcoming
in
sharing
information
with
the
public?
Why
does
pgw
lobby
harrisburg
to
preempt
the
city
when
the
city
is
pgw's
owner?
K
K
In
similar
fashion,
the
old
vision
is
to
be
quote
the
industry
leader
in
customer
service
and
operational
excellence.
Unquote
again,
pgw
is
self-referential.
Furthermore,
pgw
views
itself
in
relation
to
its
industry
peers
rather
than
to
philadelphians,
go
go
pgw
mission,
statement
or
vision
statement,
and
you
get
the
old
versions
search.
The
pgw
website
for
mission
statement
or
vision
statement,
and
you
get
nothing.
K
Pgw
promotes
itself
as
an
environmental
steward
and
an
energy
access
advocate
committed
to
contributing
to
a
clean
climate
and
minimizing
its
overall
carbon
footprint.
But
the
product
pgw
sells
is
methane,
a
potent
greenhouse
gas.
As
long
as
pgw
is
a
purveyor
of
fossil
fuels,
it
will
be
exacerbating
the
climate
problem
not
contributing
to
the
climate
solution.
K
Parroting
gas
industry
propaganda
pgw
describes
gas
as
a
bridge
fuel.
If
there
is
a
bridge.
What
is
on
the
other
side,
what
off-ramp
is
pgw
building
until
pgw
decides
to
help
create
a
future
in
which
philadelphians
are
not
dependent
on
the
use
of
fossil
fuels?
Pgw
message
messaging
will
seem
fundamentally
inconsistent,
frequently
incoherent
and
often
disingenuous
pgw
needs
to
end
its
ambivalence
concerning
its
identity
and
purpose.
K
So
my
first
suggestion
is
adopt
the
new
mission
and
vision
statements.
Note
that,
unlike
the
old
version,
the
new
mission
statement
doesn't
use
the
word
gas.
So
my
second
suggestion
is
remove
the
word
gas
from
the
pgw
name.
Keep
the
g
and
the
logo
hold
a
contest
for
philadelphians
to
offer
and
then
vote
on
a
replacement
name
like
philadelphia's
greatest
workplace
or
simply
leave
the
initials,
as
in
pgw
energy
services.
K
K
As
a
business
pgw
is
currently
product
driven
the
product
that
drives
pgw
is
gas.
Pgw
derives
its
revenue
from
the
sale
of
a
single
product.
The
old
vision
is
limited
to
the
sale
of
gas,
with
the
goal
of
remaining
a
financially
viable
enterprise
and
financial
viability
is
assured
by
the
rate
structure
approved
by
the
pennsylvania
public
utilities.
Commission
pgw
is
a
quasi
monopoly.
K
K
Called
meats
meats
was
designed
to
directly
address
the
utility
death
spiral
that
pgw
is
already
in
falling
unit.
Sales
lead
to
increased
rates,
need
that
are
needed
to
cover
fixed
costs.
Higher
prices
make
gas
unaffordable
for
lower
income
people
and
drive
away
customers
to
lower
cost
alternatives,
leading
to
further
loss
of
unit
sales.
K
K
From
an
economic
perspective
employing
these
technologies
results
in
turning
the
uncontrollable
variable
cost
of
fuel
paid
for
over
time
into
the
identified
fixed
costs
of
equipment
paid
for
upfront,
with
financing
that
can
be
amortized
for
pgw
to
transition
from
being
a
purveyor
of
fossil
fuels
to
becoming
a
provider
of
energy
efficiency
and
renewable
energy
pgw
will
need
to
develop
into
transition
to
new
business
models.
Pgw
should
be
planning
this
transition
now
pgw
needs
to
study
implementation
strategies.
Not
feasibility
pgw
needs
to
conduct
pilot
projects,
not
demonstration
projects.
K
Transition
will
require
substantial
investment.
Pgw
is
not
a
financial
institution.
Pgw
cannot
finance
its
transition
on
its
own.
The
whole
home
repair
act
proposed
by
senator
saval
can
help
weatherize
our
homes
and
ensure
that
our
row
house
roofs
can
safely
carry
the
load
of
photovoltaic
solar
panels.
K
B
M
I
personally
have
been
in
low-income
residential
energy
efficiency
for
27
years.
I've
worked
all
over
the
country
and
worked
in
many
energy
efficiency
programs
and
have
also
developed
energy
audit
software.
So
I
I'm
a
very
I'm
very
proud
to
say
I'm
a
building
scientist
in
addition
to
the
leader
of
eca
and
as
a
result,
eca
will
typically
get
into
or
touch
about,
6
000,
low-income
households
annually
in
the
city
of
philadelphia.
M
We
we
run
this
the
heater
hotline,
which
is
a
program
that
will
allow
us
to
fix
a
heater
for
a
low-income
family
that
cannot
afford
to
hire
a
contractor
and
we
will
repair
it.
And
if
we
can't
repair
it,
then
we
will
do
our
best
to
get
them
into
the
federally
funded
program
through
the
department
of
health
and
human
services
of
logic
crisis,
and
that
program
allows
us
to
replace
heating
systems
as
well.
M
B
M
M
Philadelphia
is
estimated,
has
330
000
row
homes
and
virtually
every
one
of
those
homes
has
a
flat
roof
and
flat.
Roofs
are
conducive
to
water
infiltration.
Unfortunately,
because
water
is
allowed
to
sit
on
them
and
then
infiltrate
and
because
of
the
lack
of
addicts
most
folks,
don't
know
they
have
a
roof
leak
until
it
finally
reveals
itself
in
the
form
of
a
big
water
stain
somewhere
in
the
ceiling
or
in
a
wall
in
the
home,
and
at
that
point,
damage
has
already
happened
in
terms
of
creating
potential
mold,
what
decay,
mildew,
etc.
M
So
eca
created
the
energy
philly
program
about
10
years
ago,
and
essentially
the
concept
is
exactly
what
built
to
last
was
modeled
on
which
then
in
turn
went
to
the
whole
home
repairs
act,
which
is
just
a
holistic
approach
to
low-income
houses,
not
only
making
them
more
energy
efficient,
but
also
making
them
safe,
warm
comfortable
and,
most
importantly,
habitable
in
an
effort
to
preserve
homeownership
in
the
city
of
philadelphia.
We're
seeing
very
aggressive,
robust
gentrification,
which,
from
one
side
of
the
fence,
is
a
great
thing
to
see
right.
M
So
I
don't
have
any
long-winded
pitch
here
against
taking
fossil
fuel
out
of
homes.
I
I
would
put
myself
as
a
an
expert
when
it
comes
to
energy
efficiency
in
a
residential
home
and
gas
is
right
now,
the
most
economical,
fossil
fuel
and
eca
has
aggressively
as
we
weatherize
and
put
heating
systems
in
homes.
M
We
have
pushed
hard
to
minimize
waste,
so
we
put
in
the
most
efficient
heating
systems
we
today
for,
for
example,
heating
systems
that
are
gas
fired,
can
be
as
efficient
as
97
efficient,
there's
still
carbon
that
is
being
emitted,
but
significantly
less
than
the
heaters
that
most
of
us
grew
up
with
in
our
homes.
So
the
the
technology
has
dr
has
increased
dramatically
and
we're
not
right
now,
jumping
on
the
bandwagon
to
electrify
all
these
homes.
Because
of
the
fact
the
infrastructure
really
isn't
there.
M
Electrification
of
a
home
entails
not
only
changing
out
all
the
fossil
fuel
systems
in
that
particular
home,
but
we
also
have
to
increase
the
electric
size
in
that
house
to
accommodate
now
a
electric
load
that
essentially
doubles.
What
just
about
every
home
in
philadelphia
has
that's
a
significant
cost
in
addition
to
the
electrification
of
the
appliances
as
well.
M
We
are
doing
our
best
to
lessen
energy
loads
and
houses,
and
that's
really
within
our
grasp
anything
beyond.
That
is
really
why
we're
testifying
today,
on
behalf
of
the
joint
finance
transportation,
public
utility
committee
is
to
share
our
experience
with
the
thousands
of
households
that
eca
does
serve
every
year
and
our
experience
and
what
we
see
as
well.
D
D
First,
we
serve
as
public
advocate
representing
the
interests
of
pgw's
residential
customers
and
in
matters
before
the
philadelphia
gas
commission,
and
we
represent
individual
and
low-income
utility
customers
in
affording
restoring
and
maintaining
gas
service.
Finally,
we
represent
groups
of
customers
seeking
improvements
to
programs
and
policies
that
benefit
low-income
pgw
customers.
D
My
colleague
jolene
price
testified
more
extensively
at
the
previous
hearing
and
I
won't
repeat
her
comments,
but
I
will
quickly
offer
some
of
the
high
points.
We
continue
to
be
concerned
about
the
unaffordability
being
faced
by
pgw's
customers
and
that
pgw
continues
to
put
up
barriers
that
limit
customers
ability
to
restore
or
start
service
enroll
in
bill
assistance
and
access
programs
that
are
statutorily
mandated
to
benefit
low-income
customers.
D
D
As
for
pgw's
diversification
study
itself,
we
are
disappointed
that
one
of
the
identified
pilot
proposals
is
a
weatherization
program
with
novel
financing
opportunities
which
suggests
that
pgw
would
provide
loans
and
or
other
ways
of
financing,
weatherization
applications
for
low
and
moderate
income
customers.
We
believe
that
these
programs
should
be
free
as
low-income
consumer
advocates.
We
are
not
in
favor
of
on-bill
financing
tariff
on
bill
financing
or
any
novel
financing
opportunities
associated
with
any
weatherization
programs
that
pgw
might
offer
low
and
moderate
income
pgw
customers.
D
We
believe
that
these
mechanisms
will
not
diversify
pgw
but
aim
to
further
tie
customers
financially
to
the
cusp
to
the
company.
Excuse
me,
low
and
moderate
income.
Ratepayers
cannot
afford
additional
fixed
costs
to
be
added
to
their
pgw
bills,
as
we
think
about
the
future
of
pgw
and
take
into
consideration
the
interests
that
have
been
shared
by
the
various
ratepayers
community
groups
and
other
interested
stakeholders
who
have
been
involved
throughout
this
entire
process.
D
B
D
Thank
you,
mr
chairman.
I
just
had
a
good
a
quick
question
number
one.
I
want
to
thank
everyone
for
their
testimony
today
and
I
think
that
we're
all
recognizing
and
understanding
that
things
have
to
be
done
differently,
not
only
for
the
sake
of
our
planet,
but
also
because
what
we
have
is
really.
You
know.
D
It's
not
helpful
to
particularly
low
income
rate
payers
who
are
struggling
every
single
month
to
pay
utility
bills
and
and
and
that's
not
just
actually,
I'm
gonna
say
it's
not
just
low
income,
it's
middle-income
folks
as
well,
who
have
a
very
difficult
time.
You
know
if
you
get
a
bill
in
the
mail
and
it's
not
unheard
of
I
forgot
who
mentioned.
I
think
it
was
bishop
reuster
who
mentioned
getting
a
750
dollar
bill.
I
see
councilman
green
in
his
head.
D
We
live
in
the
same
neighborhood,
similar
housing,
so
I
know
that
those
bills
you
know
they
tend
to
go
through
the
roof,
so
we
have
to
do
some
things
differently,
but
I
had
a
just
a
really
quick
question
for
bishop
royster.
You
mentioned
something
about,
and
I
forgive
me
because
I
didn't
catch
all
of
it,
but
you
mentioned
something
about
weatherization
that
we
should
not
did.
I
hear
you
say
we
should
not
do
weatherization
or
did
I
hear.
D
F
No
no.
What
I
was
saying
was
that
there
is
a
a
piece
in
the
legislative
business
diversification
report
that
talks
about
on
bill
financing
for
weatherizing,
low-income
residents
home
and
we're
saying
that
we
don't
necessarily
support
that
one,
because
it's
also
charging
the
citizens
for
the
weatherization.
We
know
that
many
of
the
citizens
of
philadelphia
can't
afford
the
weatherization,
which
is
why
senator
saval
has
his
bill
out
there
right
now
we
said
weatherization
is
extremely
important.
D
D
Okay,
yeah
yeah,
we
all
want
weatherization,
I
mean
you
know
like
no
need
to.
You
know
basically
have
your
heat
on
and
essentially
have
a
window
open
with
you
know,
with
without
having
the
weatherization
in
place
to
help
make
homes
energy
efficient.
So
thank
you.
I
just
really
wanted
clarification
on
that.
Thank
you,
mr
chairman.
B
We
need
to
weatherize
and
make
homes
more
sustainable,
so
people
use
less
energy.
So
that's
part
of
the
conversation,
so
thank
you,
councilman
advanced,
for
thank
you
to
conditionally
clarify
that
information
for
those
who
are
listening
and
as
we
continue
the
conversation,
I
want
to
thank
on
this
panel
for
being
here
this
morning,
mr
inuzi,
if
you
could
give
us
the
names
for
the
next
list
of
speakers
for
this
resolution,.
C
B
N
Thank
you,
mr
chairman,
good
morning,
chairman
greene
and
members
of
the
joint
committee.
My
name
is
ashita
gona
and
I'm
an
associate
at
rmi,
an
independent
nonpartisan
nonprofit
organization,
whose
mission
it
is
to
transform
the
global
energy
system
to
secure
a
clean,
prosperous
and
zero
carbon
future
for
all.
N
Electrification
was
discussed
at
length
in
the
diversification
study
to
decarbonize
end
uses
in
philadelphia
and
as
a
potential
alternative
business
model
for
pgw,
and
so
today,
we're
going
to
explore
four
opportunities
toward
electrification.
Philadelphia
could
consider,
particularly
particularly
for
low
income
rate
rate
payers.
N
First
philadelphia
can
move
every
home
and
especially
low
income
homes
toward
decarbonization
without
deepening
reliance
on
fossil
fuels.
Philadelphia
has
several
programs
that
provide
housing
and
energy
resources
to
low-income
households
every
day,
including
the
basic
system,
repair,
repairs,
program,
solarize
philly
and
the
heater
hotline.
The
city
can
leverage
these
existing
programs
and
networks
to
implement
measures
that
move
homes
toward
electrification,
like
like
pre-electrification
assessments,
panel
and
wiring
upgrades
and
rooftop
solar.
N
Second
of
all,
there
are
emerging
pathways
to
electrifying,
low-income
households,
while
lowering
their
energy
bills.
Rmi's
recent
research
suggests
a
starting
point.
We
conducted
energy
modeling
on
a
typical
old
philadelphia
row
home
and
looked
at
the
build
impacts
of
various
electrification
interventions.
N
We
developed
a
rojo
model
based
on
real
observed
conditions
from
a
local,
low-income,
weatherization
provider.
It's
actually
a
couple.
Our
results
indicate
that
if
gas
equipment
is
nearing
end
of
life,
customers
could
pay
lower
energy
bills
by
pairing
weatherization
with
air
source
heat
pumps,
which
are
electrified
appliances
that
efficiently
provide
both
heating
and
cooling.
N
N
N
O
Excellent
good
morning,
and
thank
you
very
much
for
your
time
to
discuss
the
necessary
thermal
energy
transition.
My
background
in
the
energy
industry
dates
back
to
1988
when
I
was
exposed
to
natural
gas
taker
pay
contracts.
During
my
graduate
studies,
I
have
34
years
of
continuing
with
some
progressive
experience
in
the
energy
industry.
Ever
since
I've
worked
for
consultants,
gas
utilities
end
users
and
brokers
over
that
period.
My
work
as
a
natural
gas
supply
manager
during
the
coldest
winter
day
on
record,
as
well
as
a
natural
gas
industry
executive,
significantly
informs
my
testimony
today.
O
I'm
currently
a
professor
at
penn
state
in
the
renewable
energy
and
sustainability
program
there,
as
well
as
a
full-time
energy
consultant.
The
focus
of
my
testimony
today
will
be
on
the
benefits
that
investing
in
thermal
networks
as
a
business
diversification
opportunity
can
provide
for
pgw
and
the
city.
O
The
global
events
of
the
past
10
weeks
point
to
the
very
critical
importance
of
energy
network.
Reliability
and
resilience.
Philadelphia
is
in
a
very
precarious
position
from
a
natural
gas
heating
perspective.
It
relies
on
a
delivery
system
which
is
near
the
end
of
the
national
national
natural
gas
transmission
system.
O
Philadelphia
does
not
have
access
to
significant
underground
natural
gas
storage
on
its
system
and
also
relies
on
liquefied
natural
gas
for
reliability.
In
the
winter
months,
philadelphia
city
gate
prices
are
among
the
most
volatile
in
the
north
american
market.
What
is
happening
in
europe
is
not
just
a
luster
to
the
value
of
resilience
and
reliability
of
energy
supplies.
O
It
will
also
significantly
affect
the
cost
for
natural
gas
for
delivery
to
philadelphia
as
natural
as
north
american
natural
gas
returns
to
being
a
global
commodity
as
opposed
to
the
local
one
it
has
been
for
the
last
decade
or
so.
The
carbonization
pathways
that
do
not
model
this
existential
commodity
risk
could
severely
burden
those
customers
least
able
to
pay
over
the
long
run.
O
As
an
anecdotal
illustration,
I'll
point
to
three
facts:
first,
long-term
natural
gas
pricing
five
to
ten
years
in
the
future
is
at
least
one
dollar
per
mm
btu
higher
than
what
was
used
in
the
diversification
study.
Second
philadelphia
city
gate
for
winner
2022-2023
is
now
trading
at
close
to
12
per
mm
btu.
O
This
is
double
the
historical
price
for
philadelphia
futures
this
morning,
the
prompt
month,
natural
gas
contract,
is
trading
at
350
percent
of
the
level
it
was
trading
two
years
ago
to
continue
to
rely
on
this
commodity
heat
homes
in
the
winter
exposes
those
least
able
to
react
to
these
changes
in
the
market
to
ever
greater
costs.
Low
income
customers
will
be
the
most
exposed
to
this
volatility
and
increase
cost.
This
is
a
significant
economic
justice
issue
to
the
extent
possible.
O
It
becomes
ever
more
incumbent
on
the
city's
leadership
to
empower
this
transition
away
from
the
global
natural
gas
commodity,
with
all
the
associated
risk
to
a
more
easily
locally
controlled
and
optimized
asset.
Like
a
thermal
network,
fossil
fuel
combustion
at
the
point
of
demand
has
been
the
preferred
solution
for
three
reasons.
First,
economics
unburdened
cost
for
fossil
fuel
consumption
has
been
lower
than
alternatives.
Second,
fossil
fuel
is
easy
to
store
to
meet
the
volatility
of
the
weather.
Third
momentum.
Switching
to
other
alternatives
is
scary,
because
lack
of
heat
is
a
significant
safety
issue.
O
In
the
winter
time,
thermal
networks
work
to
address
each
of
these
reasons
for
the
preference
of
fossil
fuels.
First,
as
we
burden
the
cost
for
fossil
fuels
with
carbon
costs,
as
well
as
realize
that
the
cost
for
natural
gas
in
philadelphia
have
been
risen
significantly
as
the
consequences
of
the
european
situation,
the
economics
of
thermal
networks
incorporating
renewable
electricity
in
ground
source
heat
pumps
become
compelling.
O
Second,
thermal
networks
are
a
local
and
viable
form
of
thermal
storage
because
they
allow
an
almost
constant
coefficient
of
performance
for
heat
pumps,
regardless
of
the
weather,
as
we
build
out
the
third,
as
we
build
out
the
technology
of
thermal
networks
and
do
more
and
more
pilot
programs,
we
become
much
more
confident
that
they
can
perform
during
times
of
high
demand.
Finland
and
denmark
rely
on
district
energy
for
more
than
50
percent
of
heat
during
the
winter.
O
Moreover,
thermal
networks
offer
three
important
characteristics
to
philadelphia
that
the
current
thermal
combustion
system
does
not
first
localize
resiliency,
reliability
and
affordability,
which
is
not
dependent
on
a
global
commodity
or
a
north
american
distribution
system.
Second,
the
removal
of
combustion
within
buildings
which
mitigates
or
eliminates
safety
issues
and
the
need
to
replace
leak
prone
pipes.
O
Thermal
networks
are
also
important
in
the
process
of
decarbonization,
because
if
a
thermal
network
were
installed
in
a
neighborhood
that
were
decarbonized
through
the
installation
of
heat
pumps,
a
thermal
network
would
use
the
latent
heat
in
the
heat
transfer
fluid
to
serve
a
ground
source
heat
pump,
thereby
making
the
heat
pump
much
more
efficient
at
cold
temperatures.
This
would
allow
for
the
complete
decarbonization
of
heating
by
elimination
of
combustion
in
buildings.
O
This
option
for
electrification
would
significantly
reduce
the
strain
on
the
electric
grid
during
periods
of
peak
usage
versus
a
complete
switch
over
to
air
source
heat
pumps.
Clearly,
the
impact
on
emissions
of
thermal
networks
is
positive.
We
know
that
heat
pumps
already
provide
a
reduction
in
emissions
of
50
percent
versus
natural
gas
combustion
for
heating,
as
a
thermal
network
captures
more
heat
and
leads
to
less
waste,
as
well
as
lower
electric
peaks.
The
impact
on
emissions
will
be
even
greater
as
the
grid
becomes
ever
more
reliant
on
zero
carbon
generation.
O
The
emissions
impact
is
driven
ever
closer
to
zero,
because
thermal
networks
provide
carbon
free.
Thermal
storage,
which
is
the
most
difficult
part
of
the
fossil
fuel.
Transition
to
solve
thermal
networks,
do
not
require
deep
drilling
or
hot
springs.
Some
geothermal
energy
systems
do
make
use
of
naturally
occurring
high
levels
of
heat
deep
below
the
earth's
surface.
You'll
hear
about
that
later.
Today,
from
from
the
gentleman
from
boise,
however,
thermal
networks
can
make
use
of
geothermal
energy
in
another
way,
namely
by
taking
advantage
of
the
fact
that
much
shallower
depths.
O
O
A
ground
source
heat
pump
is
more
efficient
than
an
air
source
heat
pump
because
it
uses
water
that
is
kept
at
a
constant
temperature
of
around
55
degrees,
fahrenheit
to
transfer
heat
as
opposed
to
the
air
which,
in
the
winter,
can
get
much
colder
than
55
degrees.
In
fact,
as
temperatures
go
to
levels
below
32
degrees,
thermal
efficiency
of
air
source
heat
pumps
becomes
very
low.
In
contrast,
the
thermal
network
allows
the
thermal
efficiency
of
a
ground
source
heat
pump
to
remain
in
the
range
of
it
500
percent,
even
at
the
lowest
temperatures.
O
This
obviously
lowers
the
carbon
footprint
of
the
space
heating
function
for
the
built
environment
and,
as
that
has
the
added
benefits
of
lower
electricity
costs
for
the
consumer
and
the
lower
and
the
lower
strain
on
the
electricity
grid,
both
in
the
winter
and
summer
seasons.
Moreover,
thermal
networks
provide
the
significant
resiliency
of
the
grid
required
to
meet
the
cold
temperatures
experienced
in
the
northeast.
These
networks
act
as
a
form
of
thermal
storage
during
the
very
cold
day
during
these
very
cold
days,
simple
air
source
electrification
pathways
will
not
address
the
significant
electric
light
reliability
issue.
O
The
recent
crisis
in
texas
was
not
just
a
failure
of
supply,
but
a
complete
misunderstanding
of
the
load.
61
percent
of
all
heating
in
texas
is
electric.
As
temperatures
plummeted,
air
source
heat
pumps
lost
their
coefficients
performance
and
helped
to
collapse.
The
grid
we
experienced
these
temperatures
every
year
in
the
northeast,
not
just
the
one
in
10,
has
played
out
in
texas.
O
Thermal
networks
would
thrive
in
philadelphia
because
they
have
because
philly
has
philadelphia,
has
a
three
following
conditions:
a
geographically
dense
load,
a
local
with
significant
heating
load,
a
local
with
a
variety
of
heat
sources
and
sinks,
including
diverse
heat
sources
and
sinks
in
buildings.
Permissive
geological
conditions,
a
nearby
body
of
water
and
access
to
other
potential
thermal
sources
like
wastewater
mains,
philadelphia,
meets
all
these
criteria.
O
Philadelphia
is
uniquely
positioned
in
the
northeast
as
the
only
large
metropolitan
area
where
the
city
government
controls
the
water
wastewater
and
gas
utility
in
every
other
metropolitan
area
in
the
northeast.
The
use
of
this
of
the
size
of
philadelphia
gas
is
provided
by
an
investor
owned
utility,
as
pgw
is
owned
by
the
city,
coordination
and
alignment
in
the
planning
for
thermal
network,
including
alignment
on
decarbonization
goals
and
the
use
of
union
labor
is
simpler
than
it
would
be
with
an
investor
owned
gas
utility.
O
Moreover,
the
city
has
access
to
the
rivers
for
water,
as
well
as
access
to
the
ability
to
return
water
to
the
rivers.
These
advantages
position
philadelphia
well
to
take
leaders,
a
leadership
role
on
thermal
networks,
recommendations.
The
diversification
study
finds
that
thermal
networks
may
provide
a
viable
option
for
pgw
as
a
new
business,
since
the
workforce
could
transition
and
the
business
model
could
be
developed
in
a
similar
manner.
O
The
study
finds
that
an
appropriately
designed
thermal
network
pilot
meets
all
the
positive
criteria,
which
were
which
were
used
to
compare
diversification
pilot
opportunities,
specifically,
carbon
reduction,
growing
revenue
and
retaining
workforce
could
be
launched
within
six
months.
Testing
a
new
energy
application
or
model
and
benefiting
low-income
customers.
O
I
recommend
that,
as
a
condition
of
approval
of
pgw's
fiscal
year,
23
capital
budget,
which
is
before
you
city
council,
should
instruct
pgw
to
invest
in
an
amount
not
to
exceed
five
hundred
thousand
dollars
in
undertaking
the
thermal
network.
Advanced
engineering
work,
which
is
described
in
my
testimony,
which
is
filed
in
the
capital
budget,
proceeding
and
will
be
part
of
my
exhibit.
O
Thermal
network,
advanced
engineering,
work
performance
of
the
thermal
network,
advanced
engineering
work
in
collaboration
with
a
working
group,
which
includes
the
parties
that
participated
in
the
working
group
for
the
diversification
study,
as
well
as
public
advocate
environmental
justice,
commission
and
any
interested
community
organization
holding
public
hearings
to
collect
input
on
the
advanced
engineering
study
and
finally,
producing
a
public
report
every
three
months
that
includes
updates
on
the
work
performed.
To
conclude,
I
strongly
recommend
that
city
council
continue
investing,
consider
investing
in
a
localized
energy
resilience
which
can
only
be
offered
by
thermal
networks.
O
E
Okay,
wonderful,
hello,
everyone.
My
name
is
nicholas
pevzner,
I'm
an
assistant
professor
in
the
department
of
landscape
architecture
at
u-pen
in
the
school
of
design.
So
thank
you,
chairman,
green
council
members.
I'm
not
an
engineer!
I'm
a
design
professor
who
happens
to
study
infrastructure,
but
five
years
ago
I
had
the
privilege
of
spending
time
in
boston
as
an
artist
in
residence
at
the
isabella
stewart
gardner
museum
on
a
mater
york
fellowship
studying
gas
infrastructure.
E
This
was
the
project
and
these
were
the
scientists.
I
was
working
directly
with
the
scientists
who
had
done
the
first
ground
level
inventory
of
gas
leaks
in
boston
back
in
2013.
Now
I
was
not
involved
with
this,
but
was
able
to
learn
a
lot
from
them.
This
2013
study
was
a
first
of
its
kind
investigation
that
mapped
leaks
across
the
city
and
found
over
3
000
leaks,
be
precise.
E
For
those
of
you
who
remember
that
drastically
increased
the
methane
emissions
of
the
state
of
california.
So
this
is
a
story
that
lines
up
with
what
we
know
about
the
larger
gas
infrastructure
system.
That
leaks
happen
at
every
step
of
the
natural
gas
supply
chain,
including
over
40
percent
of
the
emissions.
E
E
E
E
E
They
also
note
that
this
is
not
a
typical.
This
is
exactly
how
many
other
cities
with
with
old
natural
gas
infrastructure,
also
fair.
So
the
research
team
investigated
natural
gas
emissions
in
other
u.s
cities,
including
philadelphia,
which
you
see
here,
which
similarly
has
roughly
six
times
worse
inventory
as
measured
directly
as
opposed
to
what
is
accounted
for
in
bottom-up
inventory
estimates.
E
They
found
the
same
gap
between
bottom-up
epa
emissions,
estimates
and
top-down
atmospheric
measurement
prevalent
in
a
number
of
u.s
cities,
and
then
they
all
and
then
other
studies
in
boston
have
looked
at
the
cost
of
the
repairs
of
the
leaky
gas
infrastructure.
So
in
massachusetts,
the
total
cost
of
gas
replacement
have
been
estimated
at
between
13.4
to
about
16.6
billion
dollars
for
the
state
of
massachusetts
in
philly,
I'm
not
sure
of
the
exact
estimate.
E
E
You've
heard
much
about
the
concept
of
network,
geothermal
or
ground
source
systems
which
are
currently
being
piloted
both
in
massachusetts
and
new
york.
This
comes
from
massachusetts.
Non-Profits
concerns
about
diverting
the
billions
of
dollars
that
would
be
invested
in
a
stranded
asset
and
instead
trying
to
use
that
as
a
down
payment
in
a
truly
carbon
neutral
system.
E
So
if
we
take
the
rate
increase,
that
utilities
have
rate-based
to
pay
for
the
pipeline
replacements,
this
comes
out
in
massachusetts
to
be
that
by
about
2030
by
about
20
30
air
source
heat
pumps,
the
green
line
here
roughly
comes
out
as
cheaper
than
the
current
gas
system.
If
we
actually
take
the
payback
period
to
be
2050
instead
of
2110,
then
air
source
heat
pumps
become
economically
competitive
with
gas
at
about
20
26,
ground
source
heat
pumps.
The
orange
line
here
are
already
cheaper
because
ground
source
heat
pumps
achieve
higher
efficiencies
than
air
source.
E
E
Now.
I
have
only
studied
this
in
the
context
of
new
york
city,
but
I
would
bet
that
philadelphia
faced
a
very
similar
situation,
because
in
the
19th
century,
most
cities
that
use
natural
gas
for
lighting
and
heating
did
so
with
gas
produced
right
in
the
city
in
what
are
what
were
called
manufactured
gas
plants
from
coal
via
coal
gas
gasification
processes.
E
Then
in
1949,
a
brand
new
pipeline
was
approved
to
run
a
thousand
miles
from
texas
to
new
york
city,
and
so
the
two
big
gas
utilities
in
new
york
started
thinking
about
how
to
switch
to
natural
gas
arriving
via
pipeline,
which
meant
they
would
no
longer
have
any
need
for
the
manufactured
gas
plants
or
the
massive
gas
holders
that
occupied
prime
real
estate
in
the
city.
But
on
top
of
that,
at
a
chemical
level,
natural
gas
was
different
from
manufactured
gas.
E
Not
to
get
into
the
details,
but
manufactured
gas
is
a
mixture
of
carbon
monoxide
and
hydrogen
natural
gas
is
almost
pure
methane,
as
we
know,
so.
The
difference
between
the
two
was
significant
enough.
That
appliances
built
for
the
one
could
not
work
with
the
other.
What
did
they
do
it
led
to
what
was
known
as
the
the
great
changeover
in
which
the
gas
companies
went
door
to
door
to
convert
all
of
the
appliances
in
the
city.
E
The
two
utilities
undertook
a
massive
operation
to
convert
every
gas
burning
appliance
in
their
service
territories,
with
technicians
visiting
every
customer
over
the
course
of
two
years
to
retrofit
their
devices
con
ed
did
so
in
1951
brooklyn
union
in
1952.,
con
edison
had
1.4
million
customers
with
an
average
of
two
appliances.
Each
brooklyn
union
had
350
000
customers,
with
a
total
of
2
million
appliances,
total
and
interestingly,
con
edison
was
able
to
employ
many
of
the
workers
at
the
manufactured
gas
plants
that
they
were
closing
and
that
conversion
team
grew
to
over
a
thousand
employees.
E
During
the
final
stage
of
the
work,
which
was
the
conversion
of
manhattan
island,
so
two
to
three
million
appliances-
new
infrastructure,
all
in
two
years,
while
taking
care
of
their
workers,
pgw
is
well
positioned
to
transform
once
again
and
to
put
its
workers
to
work
in
building
switching
over
and
helping
maintain
a
truly
carbon-free
heating
and
cooling
system,
and
I
think
they
can
do
so.
Thank
you
very
much,
I'm
happy
to
answer
questions,
and
this
is
my
email
for
anyone
who
would
like
to
follow
up
further.
B
A
Good
morning
my
name
is
eduardo
diem
and
I
lead
ac
tripoli's,
utility
and
state
policy
team.
Ac
tripoli
stands
for
the
american
council
for
an
energy
efficient
economy
which
is
a
non-profit
founded
in
1980,
and
we
provide
research,
education
and
advocacy
on
energy
efficiency
matters
to
local
state
and
federal
governments,
as
well
as
to
utilities
and
utility
regulators.
A
So,
as
the
pgw
study
shows,
there
are
two
options
for
decarbonizing
heat:
one
is
to
use
decarbonized
fuels
and
the
other
is
to
electrify
heating
using
heat
pump
technology
such
as
ground
source
or
air
source
heat
pumps
that
others
have
already
mentioned
for
philadelphia.
We
think
the
better
option
is
electrifying
heating.
A
A
Currently
cold
climate
air
source
heat
pumps
perform
well
in
cold
weather
down
to
about
5
degrees.
Fahrenheit,
a
20-year
weather
data
set
for
philadelphia
shows
that
the
city
experienced
temperature
below
5
degrees
fahrenheit
for
an
average
of
6
hours
per
year
for
those
minimal
six
hours
when
the
temperature
may
dip
below
five
degrees,
the
heat
pumps
will
use
their
backup
resistance,
heating
coils,
which
is
less
efficient
way
of
heating
that
some
households
still
use
in
philadelphia,
because
the
temperature
rarely
dips
below
5
degrees
in
philadelphia.
A
Others
worry
that
if
the
grid
suffers,
an
outage,
philadelphians
will
be
left
without
heating,
but
in
the
event
of
an
outage,
the
same
problem
will
exist
for
natural
gas
furnaces,
which
have
essential
components
like
the
blower
motor
that
require
electricity.
The
solution
to
that
concern
is
a
resilient
grid.
A
So
when
you
compare
and
when
you
compare
the
cost
of
heating
electrification
with
the
other
option
of
using
decarbonized
fuels,
the
difference
becomes
also
clear.
Compared
to
today's
natural
gas
price
of
roughly
seven
dollars
per
mm
btu
at
the
henry
hub,
the
pgw
study
projects,
these
fuels
could
cost
as
much
as
sixty
to
eighty
dollars
per
mndtu,
assuming
the
study's
costs
are
for
wholesale
a
price.
That's
roughly
ten
times
higher
and
as
the
study
points
out,
you
know,
the
carbon
neutral
biogas
is
limited
in
quantity.
A
The
amount
of
hydrogen
that
can
be
blended
with
methane
is
also
limited,
and
it
will
take
some
time
for
synthetic
methane
to
reach
commercial
use
commercialization,
and
there
remains
a
view
that
these
decarbonized
fuels
may
not
be
truly
carbon
neutral
from
a
life
cycle,
accounting
of
greenhouse
gas
perspective,
and
that
may
create
some
uncertainty.
Whether
this
option
can
deliver
on
the
goal
of
carbon
neutrality
for
philadelphia
and,
lastly,
decarbonized
fuels
either
when
they
leak
or
when
they
combust
will
continue
to
produce
harmful
emissions.
That
could
cause
health
problems.
A
So
heating
electrification
is
already
taking
place
and
market
trends
already
favor.
Electric
heat
for
new
small
residential
and
commercial
buildings
due
to
lower
cost
to
builders.
So
heating
electrification
is
a
new
reality
and
pgw
should
face
that
reality
and
proactively
manage
the
associated
risks
in
advance.
A
One
way
to
do
that
is
to
get
back
to
the
essence
of
his
business,
which
is
providing
heat,
not
selling
commodity.
In
that
regard,
we
think
that
a
pilot
for
the
option
identified
as
network
geothermal
systems
is
compelling.
Unlike
air
source
heat
pumps,
you
know
ground
source
heat
pump
based
network
system.
There
is
a
pipe
infrastructure
that
can
be
owned
by
pgw,
representing
a
less
disruptive
transition
from
the
current
business
model,
including
pgw
keeping
their
customer
base.
A
The
skill
sets
of
pgw
workers,
as
others
have
mentioned,
should
be
transferable,
thereby
minimizing
the
workforce.
Transition
issues
and
providing
heat
through
pipes
may
also
be
particularly
advantageous
for
many
older
buildings
that
use
radiators,
thereby
lowering
retrofit
costs.
We
recommend
that
the
pilot
focus
on
neighborhoods
with
buildings
that
use
hot
water
heat
distribution
systems.
In
particular.
A
A
B
Right,
thank
you.
All
for
your
testimony
and
information
was
quite
informative
and
provides
quite
a
bit
of
context
to
this
conversation
that
we're
having
regarding
pgw
diversification.
Both
ideas
for
the
future
and
also
historical
perspective,
so
definitely
appreciate
your
input
on
this
morning.
At
this
point
like
to
call
our
next
witness,
mr
burgos.
B
B
Your
mayor,
laura
mclean
and
I
are
part
of
a
group
called
the
new
deal
which
we
will
have
here
in
philadelphia
on
may
23rd
and
24th,
and
it
was
during
our
conversation
during
the
national
league
of
cities
conference.
I
learned
about
the
work
that
you're
doing
and
I
felt
was
very
interesting
and
informative,
especially
considering
pgw's,
going
through
a
diversification
study.
So
thank
you
for
being
here
on
this
morning.
P
Cameron,
green,
my
pleasure,
thank
you
to
you
and
the
members
of
the
joint
committee.
My
name
is
steve
burgos.
I'm
the
public
works
director
with
the
city
of
boise,
and
I
oversee
the
operation
of
four
utilities
in
boise,
including
the
geothermal
heating
utility
boise
owns
and
operates
the
largest
geothermal
heating
district
in
the
country.
We
heat
public
and
private
building
space
in
the
downtown
core
of
boise
and
on
the
boise
state
university
campus.
P
P
P
As
the
largest
system
in
the
country,
we
believe
boise
is
ground:
zero
for
geothermal
use
as
a
renewable
alternative
to
thermal
energy
for
carbon-based
fuels.
This
energy
source
is
local,
so
it's
not
subject
to
the
impact
of
price
fluctuations
resulting
from
nashville
or
international
crises.
As
we've
seen
over
the
last
several
months,
it's
also
sustainable
both
as
a
near-term
or
a
near-carbon-free
heating
source,
as
well
as
one
that
returns
the
water
back
to
the
very
aquifer
from
which
it
was
withdrawn
on
an
annual
basis.
P
The
city's
geothermal
pumps
system
pumps
up
about
300
million
gallons
of
177
degree
water
from
three
production
wells
located
along
the
boise
front.
That
water
is
then
collected
piped
and
injected
3
700
feet
back
down
into
the
aquifer.
After
use,
the
water
is
used
in
our
downtown
core,
as
I
mentioned,
to
heat
90
plus
buildings,
equating
to
over
6
million
square
feet
of
downtown
building
space.
P
P
P
P
The
system
doesn't
come
without
challenges.
During
the
40
years
of
service,
we've
had
specific
challenges.
For
example,
the
geothermal
system
has
been
discussed
in
previous
testimony
competes
with
natural
gas
pricing.
Initially,
the
utility
price
point
was
closely
indexed
to
natural
gas
on
a
per
btu
basis.
P
It
should
be
noted
that
even
the
with
historically
low
natural
gas
prices,
buildings
on
the
geothermal
thermal
system
can
compete
with
and
at
times
be
lower
than
natural
gas
based
on
the
efficiency
of
the
heat
exchangers
within
the
building.
So
I
mentioned
the
heat
the
water
coming
out
of
the
aquifer
is
at
about
177
degrees,
the
break
point
for
being
as
efficient
to
beat
natural
gas
prices
about
73
degrees
of
heat
taking
off
the
water.
P
So,
in
addition,
competition
with
the
natural
gas
prices
boise
system
is
also
challenged
by
the
difficult
operational
conditions
inherent
to
assisted
moving
hot
water
underground,
while
pipe
material
technologies
have
advanced
and
they
certainly
have
over
the
last
several
decades.
The
original
system
was
comprised
of
pipe
that
did
not
respond
well
to
expansion,
contraction
and
corrosive
soils
that
over
time
result
in
the
need
for
an
active
asset
management
program
to
maintain
consistent
replacement
of
aging
pipe
moving
forward.
The
city
is
excited
about
the
potential
opportunities
to
leverage
and
expand
the
existing
system.
P
P
There's
also
expanding
research
and
development
into
emerging
technologies
like
thermoelectric
materials
that
can
be
used
to
turn
the
heat
directly
into
electricity
and
I'll
share.
The
city
staff
recently
completed
a
design
sprint
process
that
focused
on
how
to
leverage
innovation
to
expand
the
amount
and
types
of
system
uses
with
the
final
report
expected
in
the
coming
months.
We're
excited
to
see
what
comes
out
of
that,
and
with
that,
I
will
stand
for
any
questions
from
the
committee.
B
Thank
you,
mr
burgers.
Just
have
a
question:
what
opportunities
do
you
see
through
the
investment
infrastructure
jobs
act
as
a
way
to
upgrade
your
system,
considering
that
you've
had
the
system
since
the
80s,
and
that's
also
an
area
that
I'm
looking
at
as
opportunity
as
we're?
Looking
at
network,
geothermal
and
other
opportunities
for
pvw
to
diversify,.
P
Kevin
green,
thank
you
for
the
question.
We
think
there
are
several
opportunities
that
are
developing
within
does
specific
to
geothermal
we're
fortunate
that
the
idaho
national
lab,
that's
located
in
the
eastern
part
of
the
state,
is
one
of
the
lead
labs
on
geothermal
and
we've
been
working
with
them
to
get
access
to
potential
funding
through
doe,
both
through
the
infrastructure
act,
but
also
through
potential
use
of
arpa
money
that
we've
had
access
to
at
the
city.
P
B
And
usually
other
departments
out
of
the
department
of
energy
as
opportunities
for
funding
through
the
iija
one
of
the
challenges
that
I've
seen
is
that
it's
such
a
large
piece
of
legislation,
1.7
trillion
and
there
are
a
lot
of
different
departments
that
have
funding
opportunities.
That
may
not
be
the
ones
you
would
traditionally
think
about,
but
could
provide
some
funding
opportunities
for
a
project
in
various
cities
so
beyond
department
energy.
Are
there
other
departments
that
you're
looking
at
for
possible
funding
opportunities.
P
Every
green
thanks
for
the
question
you
know,
part
of
the
challenge
has
been
kind
of.
Where
is
the
the
funding
going
to
be
routed?
What
we're
hearing
more
and
more
is
that
the
funding
is
going
to
be
routed
to
the
states,
so
it'll
be
a
state
government
that
will
start
to
dole
out
the
funding
either
through,
for
example,
under
the
in
idaho,
we're
hearing
more
that
the
funding
water
funding
will
likely
go
through
state
revolving
fund
through
the
state.
P
We're
trying
to
make
a
case
that
the
geothermal
system
could
be
eligible
for
some
of
those
drinking
water,
wastewater
and
other
types
of
water
system
funding,
and
so
not
necessarily
a
department
per
se.
But
I
think
the
more
we
we
talk
with
our
folks
that
are
in
dc
and
talking
with
the
mayor's
office.
It's
becoming
apparent
that
most
of
the
funding
is
coming
through
the
state
and
so
we're
very
actively
working
with
the
state
of
idaho
and
the
different
departments
in
the
state.
B
One
last
question:
are
you
working
with
any
consultants
or
other
entities,
professional
services,
companies
that
are
helping
you
to
navigate
some
of
the
funding
opportunities
in
dc?
I
know
I've
been
hearing.
Other
cities
have
been
doing
that
and
I
was
curious
if
that
is
something
that
you're
doing,
especially
for
investment
opportunities
for
your
system.
B
P
B
Yeah,
thank
you.
That's
one
of
the
things
I've
been
advocating
to
the
administration.
I
know
that
mike
carroll
from
otis
has
been
looking
at
that,
but
when
I
look
at
all
of
the
various
city
departments
from
water
airport
bgw
to
try
to
have
a
more
comprehensive
approach
to
this
opportunity
with
a
lot
of
different
funding
sources-
and
you
know
it's
difficult
to
navigate
all
of
the
various
opportunities
without
having
a
more
comprehensive
strategy
to
address
that.
So
thank
you
for
being
here
this
morning.
B
B
L
Good
morning,
ladies
and
gentlemen,
thank
you
for
the
opportunity
to
testify
in
front
of
this
committee.
As
I
said,
my
name
is
anton
mitchells.
I
moved
2007
to
the
city
of
philadelphia
and
became
2008,
the
chief
operating
officer
of
the
german
society
of
pennsylvania,
the
oldest
german
american
organization
in
this
country.
We
are
in
business
since
1764,
so
we
are
even
12
years
older
than
the
united
states,
and
I
had
the
honor
to
serve
as
the
german
society's
president
between
between
2015
and
2016..
L
So
we
completed
our
new
building
in
1888
and
moved
into
that
area
and
are
there
ever
since,
and
we
are
faced,
we
face
firsthand
all
the
changes
that
had
happened
to
this
neighborhood
in
the
past
130
years,
the
ups
and
downs
and
the
ups.
In
recent
days
too,
we
are
in
the
middle
of
a
neighborhood
that
is
very
diverse.
We
are
next
door
neighbors
to
the
spring
garden
street
subsidized
pg,
philadelphia,
housing
authority
projects.
L
L
L
We
spent
about
1.35
million
dollars
in
establishing
a
ground
loop
well
field
under
our
parking
lot,
supplying
the
entire
building
of
about
20
000
square
feet,
including
the
opportunity
to
offer
additional
capacities
to
our
neighbors,
which
which
we
did
so
we
discussed
early
on.
If
we
would
like
to
be
part
of
a
geothermal
network
in
the
neighborhood,
and
so
we
we
completed
that
system
and
we
are
extremely
happy.
L
So
we
went
for
a
company
in
outside
of
philadelphia
establishing
our
wealth
field
as
close
loop,
a
closed
loop
heat
pump
system,
and
we
are
very
happy
with
it,
and
by
doing
so,
it
was
of
course
difficult
for
an
existing
building
that
is
was
not
planned
to
to
to
have
to
be
supplied
with
a
geothermal
system
to
implement
that
we
were
able
to
do
that
over
the
over
the
time
of
five
years.
Without
the
interruption
of
our
operation.
L
L
We
are
suggesting
that
the
that
a
pilot
project
should
be
at
the
core
of
the
edgar
allan
poe
house
on
seventh
street.
The
edgar
allen
powers
is
in
the
of
course,
possession
of
the
national
park
service
and
the
national
park
service
says
anyways
at
this
time,
a
contract
with
pgw
to
replace
the
heating
systems.
L
So
we
would
like
to
help
out
and
bring
in
our
experience
in
that
regards
to
to
establish
a
network
geothermal
project
in
the
city
of
philadelphia,
and
I'm
glad
that
city
council
is
considering
to
change
the
guidelines
for
pgw
to
approach
a
project
like
that
and
maintain
and
develop
sustainable
jobs
for
the
ptw
staff
in
the
future.
Thank
you
for
giving
me
the
opportunity
to
testify.
B
Q
Thank
you,
chairman
green.
My
name
is
jack
diana,
I'm,
the
executive
director
of
the
geothermal
national
and
international
initiative,
I'm
also
an
ambassador
of
the
international
ground
source
heat
pump
association
and
also
a
founding
member
of
newark
geo,
pago,
california,
geo
and
many
other
geothermal
associations.
Q
Q
I'm
going
to
approach
this
a
little
bit
differently,
because
I'm
also
a
utility
employer
was
a
utility
employee,
retired
this
technology,
which
is
actually,
as
some
most
people
have
stated.
It
uses
the
the
thermal
energy
from
the
earth
to
provide
heating
and
cooling
to
facilities,
and
what
I
want
to
talk
about
is
this.
This
whole
the
whole
idea
of
networking
geothermal
right
now,
I'm
I'm
suggesting
that
the
that
the
networking
system
that
pgw
looks
at
in
this
whole
study
that
you're
doing
would
be
mr
deanna.
B
Q
Q
Q
Q
A
heating
only
school,
which
is
99
of
the
schools
in
philadelphia,
has
a
relative
humidity
of
10
to
20
percent.
There
are
two
studies
right
now
by
harvard
and
yale
that
states
higher
relative
humidity
impedes
the
transmission
of
respiratory
viruses.
If
that
sounds,
it
sounds
familiar
that's
coving.
By
putting
by
installing
geothermal
technology
in
schools,
we
raise
that
that
relative
humidity
to
40
to
60
percent.
Q
Now,
why
why
I'm
saying
this
is
the
fact
that
a
network
system
or
or
planning
a
network
system
in
a
neighborhood
involves
quite
quite
a
bit
of
of
disruption,
but
if
we
were
to
use
the
school
as
the
as
the
anchor
tenant
for
that
network,
in
other
words,
we
would
install
a
system
in
a
school
install
a
system
in
the
soccer
field
in
the
in
the
in
the
parking
lot
wherever
it
would
be.
We
that
school
would
always
be
the
anchor
tent
for
that
for
that
technology.
Q
Q
As
I
stated
before,
I'm
I'm
a
ambassador
for
this
industry.
This
technology
uses
high
density
polyethylene
pipe
to
take
the
thermal
energy
from
the
ground
into
the
school,
so
we
operate
on
btw
btus.
What
pgw
the
value
for
this?
For
pgw
is
they
can
only
also
sell
that
same
btus
as
opposed
to
selling
ccfs.
Q
Q
So
I'm
saying
that
the
pilot
programs
that
you
should
look
at
should
be
centered
around
schools.
Probably
very
few
people
are
aware
that
the
city
of
philadelphia
had
some
of
the
very
first
geothermal
applications
in
buildings.
The
ronald
mcdonald
house
was
the
very
first
ronald
mcdonald
house
in
in
the
nation
that
has
geothermal
technology
in
it,
geothermal
heat
pump
technology
in
it
the
west
philadelphia
enterprise
center,
which
is
46th
in
market.
Q
The
old
bandstand
kyw
building
has
geothermal
it's
now
the
it's
now
the
west
philadelph
enterprise
center,
that
has
geothermal
system
system
in
it,
the
kensington
new
kensington
art
school
is
totally
geothermal.
So
this
is
I'm
looking
at
this,
not
as
a
not
as
just
a
pilot
program
to
see
whether
it
works.
This
technology
is
45
years
old.
Q
I
should
mention
that
I'm
also
board
chairman
for
community
action
agency
of
delaware
county.
We
run
five
shellers.
We
actually
have
bought
us
an
elementary
school
that
we
have
geothermal
installed
in
where
we
probably
deal
with
about.
We
take
people
from
total
dependency
to
total
self-sufficiency,
so,
like
I
said,
I've
been
doing
this
for
a
long
time
and
I
I
think
I
would
I
put
together
teams
that
that
make
sure
that
this
gets
done
right.
Q
So
I'm
at
your
service,
if
you,
if
you
choose,
I
would
be
glad
to
help
you
in
in
this
venture
and
once
again,
I'm
looking
at
this
as
a
new
business
opportunity
for
pgw,
because
they've
got
to
have
they've
got
if
they're
going
to
move
to
the
future.
They've
got
to
have
a
way
to
do
it
and
I
believe
geothermal
heat
pumps
are
one
way
to
do
it.
B
Thank
you
for
your
testimony
and,
as
you
were
talking
made
me
think
about
on
the
work
we've
done
with
the
philadelphia
energy
authority
and
really
providing
opportunity
to
bring
solar
panels
to
schools
in
the
city
of
philadelphia
and
also
provide
the
opportunity
to
expose
young
people
to
that
green
collar
industry,
and
it's
been
a
number
of
young
people
who
are
now
moving
into
that
industry.
So
thank
you
for
your
ideas
and
suggestions.
It
helps
to
add
to
this
conversation
of
the
possibilities
for
the
future.
I
will
now
have
ms
bond
and
mr
schrag.
R
I
want
to
acknowledge
the
challenges
in
staying
engaged
in
an
online
hearing
for
this
long,
and
I
am
grateful
for
the
opportunity
to
speak
to
the
council
this
morning.
The
medical
field
recognizes
the
immediacy
of
the
human
health
crisis
of
climate
change.
In
early
april,
the
ipcc
released
research
that,
in
order
to
eliminate
global
emissions
by
2050,
the
emissions
must
peak
by
2025
and
have
by
2030,
as
the
city
of
philadelphia
is
committed
to
the
2050
deadline.
I
ask
members
of
city
council
today
to
ensure
pgw's
transition
is
aligned
with
this
path.
R
Speaking
on
behalf
of
medical
professionals,
I
must
acknowledge
first
that
natural
gas
is
a
harmful
substance
from
extraction
through
the
supply
line
to
use
living
close
to
gas
extraction.
Sites
increases
the
risk
of
premature
birth
and
congenital
heart
defects.
Indoor
air
is
often
two
to
five
times
more
polluted
than
outdoor
air
due
to
factors
like
unvented,
natural
gas
and
americans
spend
90
percent
of
their
time
indoors.
R
I
echo
the
concerns
of
bishop
royster,
steve
luxton
and
others
that
these
issues
affect
us
all
but
fall
disproportionately
on
our
lowest
income
residents.
Even
setting
aside
all
of
the
harms
I've
stated,
the
fact
remains
that
the
extraction,
transportation
and
use
of
natural
gas
is
one
of
the
major
contributors
to
climate
change.
Methane
from
natural
gas
is
the
second
largest
source
of
carbon
pollution
after
oil
from
a
public
health
perspective.
R
R
R
R
Any
more
time
and
money
spent
on
building
or
facilitating
the
sustained
use
of
natural
gas
in
any
carbon
emitting
form
is
working
against
our
healthy,
sustainable
future
city.
Council
members
should
include
in
the
ordinance
establishing
pgw's
fiscal
year,
23
capital
budget,
a
requirement
the
pgw
perform
the
thorough
thermal
network
advance
engineering
work
proposed
by
power
in
fiscal
year,
23.
R
G
Thank
you
chairman,
green
and
council
members.
My
name
is
jonathan
schrag.
I'm
engaged
as
a
consulting
gas
expert
on
behalf
of
the
clean
air
council
and
I'm
grateful
for
this
opportunity
to
speak
with
you.
I've
got
an
extensive
background
in
gas
regulation,
most
recently
from
2016
to
2020.
I
was
the
deputy
administrator
of
the
rhode
island
division
of
public
utilities
responsible
for
regulating
natural
gas
utilities
across
the
state,
and
I
currently
work
as
a
consulting
expert
to
the
massachusetts
office
of
the
attorney
general
maura
healey
on
gas
matters.
G
G
So
what
are
the
changes
affecting
the
gas
industry?
First,
the
price
of
the
gas
commodity
in
the
last
year,
gas
has
more
than
doubled.
Philadelphia
is
particularly
exposed
to
volatile
than
rising
prices,
as
it
sits
at
the
end
of
regional
pipelines
and
must
rely
on
expensive,
liquefied
natural
gas
storage.
G
Those
export
terminals
now
allow
north
american
gas
to
move
around
the
world
to
whichever
places
are
willing
to
pay
the
most.
So
u
s.
Gas
customers
must
now
compete
with
customers
all
over
the
world
and
pay
higher
prices
that
result
from
international
events,
whatever
they
may
be,
a
nuclear
accident
in
japan
or
a
war
in
ukraine.
G
Third,
the
cost
of
the
gas
pipeline
capacity
is
increasing.
This
is
one
of
the
most
complex
areas
of
the
gas
business.
The
procurement
of
gas
pipeline
capacity
from
interstate
wholesale
shippers,
gas,
regional
pipelines
are
full
capacity,
is
expensive
and,
as
a
result,
pgw
must
rely
on
lng
storage
to
meet
peak
winter
demand.
G
Finally,
as
you've
heard,
new
electric
and
use
technologies,
air
source
or
ground
source
heat
pumps
will
require
gas
companies
to
compete
for
customers
in
a
way
that
they
haven't
had
to
in
the
past.
These
are
all
new
risks
and
new
pressures
affecting
pgw,
and
so
the
best
path
for
pgw
to
manage
these
risks
is
to
diversify
its
business.
G
It'll
offer
an
opportunity
for
pgw
to
shed
some
of
its
current
costs
as
demand
for
gas
declines
in
the
diversification
study.
Those
costs
are
estimated
to
not
exist,
but
in
fact,
looking
through
pgw's
filings,
one
can
see
that
there
may
be
as
much
as
40
million
dollars
annually
in
savings
from
reduced
storage.
G
In
the
february
ninth
public
hearing
pgw
management
articulated
its
opposition
to
business
diversification
and
its
commitment
to
a
business
as
usual
strategy.
This
is
contrary
to
city
policy,
overlooks
long-term
risks
to
the
pgw
enterprise
and
is
inconsistent
with
the
best
practice
of
gas
utilities
in
other
parts
of
the
northeast.
G
Now
it's
always
going
to
be
easier
to
affect
change
if
utility
management
is
a
willing
partner,
but
sometimes
we
all
need
a
nudge
to
realize
that
we
need
to
be
good
partners.
Given
the
current
pgw
management's
opposition
to
business
diversification,
this
committee
should
give
pgw
a
nudge
requiring
them
to
execute
specific
and
concrete
actions.
G
So
what
are
some
of
those
actions?
First
pgw
should
develop
a
weatherization
finance
and
service
business.
Building
on
the
diversification
study.
Recommendation
require
that
pgw
submit
a
business
plan
within
six
months
and
assign
an
appropriate
business
leader
within
pgw
to
serve
as
an
executive
of
this
new
business.
G
Pgw
should
immediately
undertake
this
pilot
project
for
network
geo
districts.
You
should
build
on
the
study
recommendations
again
and
require
the
office
of
sustainability
to
commission.
A
feasibility
study.
Pgw
needs
to
develop
a
site
selection
process.
Pgw
should
complete
a
cost
estimate
and
trend
and
find
an
existing
neighborhood
to
site
the
project.
G
G
G
They
should
submit
a
plan
to
interact
with
pico,
to
plan
strategic
electrification
and
on
this
planning
function,
this
information
technology
heavy
function.
They
need
to
assign
an
appropriate
business
leader
to
act
as
an
executive
to
lead
pgw
needs
to
submit
an
investment
alternatives,
cost
calculator
to
evaluate
the
benefits
and
costs
of
particular
investments
in
a
transparent
and
explicit
way.
G
G
G
Other
jurisdictions
across
the
united
states
are
recognizing
the
changing
dynamics
within
the
gas
industry
in
massachusetts
in
california
and
in
new
york
there
are
new
planning
processes
and
new
compensation
processes
taking
hold
together.
These
three
jurisdictions
are
beginning
to
reform
the
operations
of
gas
utilities.
G
B
B
D
Thank
you,
sir
good
morning,
good
morning,
chairman
green
good
morning,
council
members,
my
name
is
pamela
dargo.
I
am
a
resident
of
germantown
philadelphia
and
I'm
here
to
request
that
city
council
instructs
pgw
to
invest
in
thermal
network,
advanced
engineering
work
and
its
fiscal
year,
2023
capital
budget,
and
I'm
making
that
request.
For
two
reasons,
based
on
the
testimony
that's
been
presented
today,
it's
clear
that
geothermal
energy
is
cleaner
and
is
cheaper
than
on
the
use
of
fossil
fuels.
D
As
I
said,
I'm
a
resident
of
germantown.
I
live
in
one
of
those
big
houses
in
germantown
old
house,
which
costs
a
lot
to
heat
during
the
winter
months.
My
heating
bill
averages
from
two
to
three
thousand
dollars,
even
though
I'm
on
a
budget
plan,
my
monthly
bill
is
close
to
three
to
four
hundred
dollars
on,
as
bishop
royster
testified.
D
D
I
Hi,
my
name
is
sean
hogan,
I'm
actually
going
to
read
rachel
mulberry's
testimony
because
she
won't
be
able
to
make
it
back
in
time.
So
wherever
I
say,
I
am
speaking
from
rachel's
perspective,
so
my
name
is
rachel,
I'm
a
pgw
rate
payer
and
a
member
of
philly
dsa,
I'm
here
today,
because
I
need
pgw
and
pgw
needs
me
I'm
here,
because
our
futures
are
woven
together
and
the
diversification
study
and
upcoming
annual
budget
should
tell
that
story.
I
But
don't
I'm
also
here
to
tell
you
about
how
my
father
called
me
a
couple
weeks
ago
with
pride
in
his
voice,
to
tell
me
that
he
and
my
mom
have
fully
transitioned
their
house
off
of
gas.
The
old
furnace
was
gone
and
an
electrician
had
come
in
to
wire
the
kitchen
for
an
induction
stove.
My
parents
could
afford
to
electrify
their
home
thanks
to
their
pensions
from
decades
working
in
high
paying
public
sector
jobs,
not
unlike
the
jobs
that
give
pgw
workers,
families
and
communities,
financial
security.
I
In
the
absence
of
a
real
of
a
real
plan
is
to
just
saddle
poor
philadelphians
with
even
heavier
loads
of
utility
debt.
The
study
pretends
that
we
don't
need
each
other.
It
says
that
tomorrow
won't
look
that
much
different
than
yesterday,
despite
all
of
the
evidence
right
around
the
time.
My
dad
called
me,
the
un
secretary
general
said
that
we
have
30
months
to
start
reducing
global
greenhouse
emissions
to
have
any
chance
at
all
of
preventing
the
worst
impacts
of
the
climate
crisis
30
months.
I
Pgw
needs
us
and
we
need
pgw.
We
can
honor
our
interdependence
by
looking
the
future
straight
on
and
committing
to
get
off
fossil
fuels
with
the
speed
and
commitment
that
honors
the
value
of
our
own
lives
and
those
of
our
loved
ones.
Pgw
is
owned
by
us,
the
people
of
philadelphia.
We
are
here
and
we
are
watching
how
you
decide
to
act.
Thank
you.
T
T
I
hold
a
graduate
degree
in
ecology
and
I've
been
a
leader
in
both
the
teamsters
union
and
the
american
federation
of
teachers
with
40
plus
years
of
experience
in
each
of
these
areas.
I'm
also
a
member
of
philadelphia
dsa,
and
with
this
background,
I
bring
the
twin
perspectives
of
the
importance
of
one
moving
away
from
fossil
fuels
as
rapidly
as
possible
and
two
preserving
union
jobs
that
are
essential
to
the
economic
stability
of
our
city.
T
It
may
seem
contradictory
to
speak
in
the
same
sentence
about
floods
and
droughts,
but
we
need
only
remember
the
drought-enhanced
massive
wildfires
in
california
last
summer,
where
my
sister's
entire
town
burned
down
and,
at
the
same
time
we
remember
the
storm
that
filled
the
vine
street
expressway
with
20
feet
of
water
catastrophes.
Such
as
these
will
continue
to
happen
with
more
frequency
if
we
don't
drastically
and
rapidly
reduce
our
use
of
fossil
fuels,
and
they
will
continue
to
happen
right
here
in
philadelphia.
T
T
T
T
T
Alternatively,
city
council
can
take
the
lead,
become
a
model
for
other
cities
across
the
country
in
providing
a
transition
away
from
fossil
fuels
and
a
just
transition
for
our
workers.
In
so
doing,
city
council
members
will
be
remembered
for
rising
to
the
occasion
and
dealing
with
this
climate
crisis.
Please
do
the
right
thing.
M
N
Hi,
my
name
is
nguyen
costantini
and
I
am
testifying
today
as
a
member
of
billy
dsa.
Earlier
this
week,
the
gas
commission
rejected
power
interface
proposal
to
include
500
000
in
the
capital
budget
for
a
network.
Geothermal
pilot
pgw's,
newly
approved
capital
budget
reflects
their
commitment
to
fossil
fuel
producers
lobbyists
and
the
personal
interests
of
their
management.
What's
more,
pgw
is
now
also
attempting
to
block
public
participation
in
their
operating
budget
process,
a
transparent
move
that
shows
that
pgw
is
not
committed
to
meeting
the
needs
of
current
and
future
philadelphians.
N
We
must
view
every
dollar
spent
on
gas
infrastructure,
including
renewable
natural
gas,
as
one
that
could
instead
be
spent
on
ensuring
long-term
job
stability
for
pgw
workers
and
new
union
jobs
for
philadelphians,
preventing
asthma
and
other
respiratory
health
issues
through
improved
air
quality
programs
to
address
the
urgent
issues
of
utility
burden
and
housing
disrepair,
investing
in
renewable
energy
projects
and
developing
network
geothermal
and
other
electrification
pilots.
So
we
can
have
an
eco,
equitably
decarbonized
city.
N
This
is
the
city.
Council
must
take
this
opportunity
in
front
of
them
to
require
that
pgw
operate
in
the
interests
of
all
philadelphians
city
council
must
prevent
pgw
from
restricting
public
participation
in
future
budget
processes
and
must
also
require
that
pgw
invest
in
technologies
like
network
geothermal,
which
have
the
greatest
potential
to
decarbonize
our
city,
while
preserving
and
expanding
these
good
union
jobs.
Thank
you.
S
Thank
you
very
much.
My
name
is
william
or
bill
cousins.
I'm
a
resident
of
east
mount
airy,
a
and
council
person
bass
is,
is
my
representative
on
city
council,
I'm
here
to
speak
in
favor
of
the
that
city
council
require
that
pgw
allocate
the
five
hundred
thousand
dollars
in
its
capital
budget
for
the
network,
geothermal
planning
of
the
pilot
project
and
the
I
would.
What
I
would
like
to
focus
on
in
my
brief
testimony
is
the
social
and
racial
justice
impact
of
not
transitioning
off
of
fossil
gas.
S
We
are
already
seeing
higher
and
middle-income
households
making
that
transition,
as
the
one
of
the
previous
people
spoke
in
my
neighborhood
in
east
mount
airy.
I
know
within
two
blocks
of
my
house.
I
know
of
three
houses
that
have
installed
air
source
heat
pumps
and,
in
one
case
solar
panels,
and
they
have
moved
completely
off
of
fossil
gas,
and
I
believe
that
trend
is
going
to
continue
over
time.
We
are
seeing
proposed
federal
legislation
which
would
provide
tax
incentives,
tax
credits
for
households
to
electrify
their
use
of
electrify,
their
utilities,
installing
heat
pumps.
S
S
Pgw's
fixed
cost
will
be
spread
over
shrinking
volume
of
gas
sales
to
cover
these
fixed
costs.
Pgw
will
be
in
a
position
of
having
to
increase
the
delivery
rates
for
delivering
gas
with
higher
income,
households
using
less
gas
or
no
gas
at
all.
The
poorer
people
of
the
low
income
and
moderate
income
philadelphians
will
be
left,
holding
the
bag,
they'll
be
the
ones
who
will
households
and
landlords
lords
that
cannot
afford
to
electrify
will
be
the
ones
paying
these
higher
rates.
S
These
higher
rates
will
reinforce
the
energy
burden
and
poverty
of
philadelphia,
you'll,
see
rising
inability
to
pay
and
higher
bill
delinquencies.
This
will
become
an
even
more
severe
economic
and
social
justice
issue.
Several
other
speakers
have
referred
to
this
peter
winslow
referred
to
it
as
the
death
spiral.
S
B
B
We
will
recess
this
hearing
to
call
the
chair,
because
I
believe
there'll
be
opportunities
to
have
ongoing
conversations
regarding
diversification
of
pgw,
just
like
just
like
the
fact
we're
gonna
bring
in
speakers
from
boise
and
from
other
parts
of
the
country.
I
think
there's
gonna
be
some
opportunities
to
continue
this
conversation,
and
I
know
I'm
currently
looking
at
a
national
organization
that
can
help
with
the
geothermal
discussion
and
some
of
the
other
discussions.
B
I
know
funding
will
be
part
of
upcoming
budgets
for
pgw
to
focus
on
pdw
and
some
of
the
other
diversification
opportunities
with
pgw
and
how
we
can
transition
into
a
a
different
future.
As
I
stated
earlier
in
the
beginning
of
this
hearing,
pgw
started
as
a
lighting
company
1836
and
we've
made
other
transitions,
and
if
you
saw
the
interesting
presentation
from
professor
pervez
there's
an
opportunity
to
pgw
to
transition,
like
other
utilities,
have
done
as
well.