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From YouTube: Historic Landmarks Commission Meeting - 02/06/2020
Description
Historic Landmarks Commission Meeting - 02/06/2020
https://www.slc.gov
https://www.slc.gov/historic-preservation/
https://www.slc.gov/boards/historic-landmark-commission-agendas-minutes/
A
A
C
D
E
Rights
gone
where
yeah,
so
they
initially
asked
for
the
mayor
to
be
the
Historic
Preservation
hearing
officer.
They
did
so
as
mayor
boo.
Scoopski
was
winding
down
her
time
in
office
and
she
wasn't
all
that
interested
in
hearing
the
matter.
So
they
tried
to
punt
it
to
the
next
administration
and
the
appellant
said
well,
we'll
just
go
ahead
and
have
a
hearing
officer
then,
which
was
the
smart
choice
because
it
was
the
smart
choice.
A
G
So
that
handouts
coming
around
my
name
is
Cindy
Cromer.
If
you'd,
please
leave
one
for
a
commissioner
hi.
That
would
be
great
in
case.
He
shows
up
next
Thursday.
The
city
will
consider
the
appeal
from
the
owners
of
a
mid-century
apartment
building
in
the
Capitol
Hill
historic
district
and
who
decided
that
they
were
entitled
to
paint
bricks
which
had
remained
unpainted
for
almost
70
years.
You
considered
the
case
multiple
times.
A
solution
is
feasible,
but
the
owners
have
decided
not
to
pursue
the
removal
of
the
paint.
G
During
your
discussion
about
the
case,
a
commissioner
brought
up
whether
it
was
reasonable
for
the
owners
to
do
what
they
had
done.
The
owners
are
professional
developers,
not
residential
homeowners.
This
is
not
their
first
project.
Another
topic
of
discussion
was
whether
the
planning
staff
had
provided
adequate
information
to
the
public.
That
is
the
issue.
I
want
to
focus
on
tonight.
The
mentality
in
the
West
regarding
land
and
the
associated
structures
remains
one
of
pushing
back
the
frontier
of
conquest,
I
believe
that
generations
after
the
Pioneers
arrival.
G
This
mentality
is
now
hardwired
into
many
of
the
residents.
We
are
now
seeing
a
social
phenomenon
which
amounts
to
an
overlay
on
top
of
this
belief
in
conquering
the
territory.
The
new
mentality
is
to
benefit
maximally
from
the
current
market
before
it
declines,
avoid
taking
out
permits
whenever
possible,
exploit
the
land
and
structures
on
it
and
to
label
the
effort
falsely
as
sustainable
and
affordable.
G
So
back
to
what
the
planning
staff
could
do,
they
could
craft
an
excellent
document
on
the
10
worst
or
best
things
you
could
do
to
a
historic
building.
That
information
is
already
available
on
the
internet.
Regarding
an
awning
strike
house,
I
found
it
on
msn.com
and
one
of
the
10
worst
things
you
can
do
anyhow
is
yes
paint
the
brick.
Unfortunately,
miss
information
is
also
readily
available.
I
sent
you
electronically,
an
example.
G
A
lovely
brick
cottage
now
drenched
in
white
paint
with
a
black
roof
is
an
example
of
what
a
construction
company
could
do
for
you.
I
also
found
the
following
statement:
online
homes
with
charcoal
smoky
and
jet
black
doors
sell
for
six
hundred
to
six
thousand
two
hundred
seventy
one
dollars
more
than
expected,
and
any
document
from
the
Planning
Division
compete
with
this
overlay
of
exploitation
and
misinformation.
First,
the
planners
would
have
to
carve
out
some
time.
G
Other
people
could
help,
but
realistically
great
documentation
on
the
planning
website
is
not
going
to
turn
the
tide
to
change
behavior.
In
the
face
of
such
economic
benefits,
it's
going
to
require
some
painful
enforcement
by
the
city
and
I
suspect
a
slowdown
in
the
economy.
Thank
you
for
your
previous
decision.
H
All
right
so
Chris
Zurich,
the
representative
for
Liberty
Square,
is
requesting
a
material
change
from
the
approved
wooden
vertical
screen.
Those
elements
were
between
the
second
and
third
balcony
features
on
each
building.
The
change
will
be
from
a
wooden
vertical
screening
element
to
steel
angles.
H
The
landmark
Commission
laughs
approved
the
changes
to
Liberty
Square
on
May
3rd
2018,
like
I
said,
Liberty
Square
includes
a
eight
building
development
that
faces
both
Greene
Street
and
fifth
south,
with
some
visible
features
from
six
east.
Each
unit
contains
two
balcony
features,
one
on
the
second
and
one
on
the
third
storey.
H
H
E
I
Wood
styles
were
actually
and
again.
My
name
is
Chris
is
Eric.
Thank
you
for
having
me
they
were
dimensionally
two-by-four,
so
essentially
one
and
a
half
inches
wide
by
three
and
a
half
inches
deep.
The
original
mock-up
that
was
made
to
propose
steel
as
a
new
material
used
the
same
width
as
the
original
wood
style.
So
an
inch
and
a
half
is
what
you're
seeing
there.
It's
not
as
deep.
I
You
know
with
the
intent
to
save
weight,
but
you
can
see
we
made
that
mock-up
consulted
with
staff
and
agreed
with
their
assessment
that
it
was
both
visually
and
physically
heavy,
and
so
we
went
through
a
couple
of
different
iterations
and
arrived
at
the
angle.
Mock-Up
and
those
those
angles
are
one
inch
by
one
inch
they're
on
the
same
spacing
as
the
original
styles,
so
they
come
across
as
you're.
I
Looking
straight
on
as
a
little
more
open,
I
think
what
we
came
to
like
about
that
particular
version
is:
it
is
a
little
bit
dynamic
as
you
move
around
it.
It
has
this
quality
of
becoming
open
and
closed
as
one
passes
by
it,
and
the
light
you
know
creates
a
lot
of
different
effect
as
it
moves
across
it,
especially
on
the
southern
facing
buildings
and
then
I.
Guess.
A
H
I
I
You're
exciting,
but
if
anyone
has
any
questions,
I'm
happy
to
refer,
but
you
know
it's
the
same
in
images
essentially
I
think
if
you
were
to
just
move
to
the
rendering
so
we're
towards
the
end
yeah,
you
know
we
did
produce
an
update
to
our
rendered
images.
We
modeled
the.
So,
let's
see
that's
you
move
down.
Okay,
keep
going
to
the
end
of
the
there
you
go,
so
this
is
the
original
rendering
and
I
will
blow
it
up,
and
you
can
move
to
the
next
image.
You
can
see
just
kind
of
it's
at
a
distance.
B
I,
just
have
a
comment
and
I
mentioned
to
see
earlier.
I
do
want
to
commend
you
for
at
least
letting
us
know
that
you
are
making
this
changes
because
we've
dealt
with
other
properties
where
they
did
make
changes
from
what
was
approved
and
did
not
let
staff
know
or
the
Commission
know
so
that
you
made
for
me
it
seems
like
a
minimal
change,
but
you
you
guys
had
you
felt
the
need
to.
Let
us
know.
I
really
appreciate
that
very.
I
A
G
Yep
this
project
has
been
in
the
process
so
long.
My
name
is
Cindy
Krum
iram
that
I've
acquired
significant
additional
wrinkles.
This
is
going
to
work
out
much
better
I'm
pleased
with
the
change
I
maintain
a
building
on
3rd
South.
That
has
the
same
exposure,
and
this
would
would
have
been
very
hard
to
maintain,
particularly
in
multiple
units
where
you
need
to
get
out
on
the
balconies
in
order
to
do
the
work,
so
I
think
this
is
going
to
serve
the
project.
G
G
Don't
understand
why
the
fire
marshal
is
not
the
very
first
part
of
city
government
consulted
on
any
project,
because
I
keep
hearing
from
developers
that
they've
had
to
make
changes
far
into
the
process
where
there's
been
a
lot
of
money
expended
a
lot
of
drawings
and
and
then
they've
got
to
make
some
changes.
So
I
don't
have
any
objections
to
the
changes.
It's
just
the
process
needs
to
start
with
the
fire
marshal.
The
requirements
of
the
fire
marshal
are
constraining
the
site
development
and
we
need
to
do
this
more
efficiently.
A
Any
generally
a
City
process,
one
of
the
first
things
you
do
is
bring
your
concept
design
to
a
Planning
Division
of
them.
There's
a
development
review
team
that
you
meet
with,
and
that
includes
the
fire
marshal
so
right
up
front.
As
soon
as
there's
the
schematic
site
plan,
he
should
have
been
involved.
I'm.
G
Just
seeing
that,
when
I
get
in
a
room
with
people
from
the
development
community,
one
of
the
things
we
can
agree
on
is
that
projects
are
running
into
problems
with
fire
access.
That
applies
to
the
one
on
six
south
and
60s,
the
small
mixed-use
project,
this
one
and
many
others
and
I'm
afraid
my
own,
so
I'm
going
to
the
farmer.
So
first
good.
A
Plan,
thank
you
very
much
any
further
comments
from
the
applicant
or
staff
on
this.
Before
we
go
into
executive
session
okay
executive
session,
any
commissioners.
Anything
you
want
to
say,
I
I,
agree
that
this
is
a
good
change,
myself.
I
guess:
I
didn't
catch
on
the
first
go-round
that
they
were
proposing.
Would
this
is
going
to
look
better
and
lasts
a
lot
longer
with
lot
less
maintenance.
J
A
A
E
So,
based
on
the
analysis
and
findings
listed
in
the
staff
report,
the
information
presented
and
the
input
received
during
the
public
hearing
and
moved
to
the
Commission
approve
petition.
Peel
and
excuse
me:
a
Chelsea
2017
0
0
6
6,
a
request
for
a
certificate
of
appropriateness
for
a
modification
to
the
approved
Liberty
Square
new
construction
at
6:39,
East,
500
self.
A
B
E
A
A
H
K
K
K
So
this
is
a
request
by
the
Church
of
Jesus
Christ
of
latter-day
saints
to
replace
the
existing
slate
areas
on
the
roof
at
the
Devereaux
house
with
asphalt,
shingles
re-roofs
are
generally
at
reviewed
administrative
leave,
but
this
is
a
missus
referred
to
the
Commission,
since
it's
a
change
in
the
material
and
it's
on
a
landmark
site.
So
to
put
it
in
context,
this
is
the
site,
the
location
of
the
Deveraux
house.
K
You
can
see
South
temple
on
the
south
and
then
300
West
is
on
the
east,
and
then
the
house
is
located
in
the
middle
of
the
site
with
that
circle
drive
in
front
of
it
into
the
mansard
roof
portions,
and
this
is
on
the
South
temple
facade.
You
can
see
on
the
front
facade
here
the
mansard
roof
portions
on
the
third
floor,
and
then
this
extends
around
to
the
side
facade.
This
is
on
the
east.
K
The
rear
facade
has
a
mansard
roof
portion
with
slate,
and
then
there
are
also
areas
with
wood
shingles
as
well,
and
then
this
is
on
the
West
facade.
You
can
see
the
slate
on
the
men's
side,
roof
portion
and
in
the
rear
of
which
tingled
area,
and
so
the
applicant
is
proposing
to
replace
the
slate
tile
with
certain
teen
landmark
Pro
asphalt,
shingle
roofing
and
you
can
see
in
the
image
here
the
the
shingles
shown
on
the
advanced
order
portion.
K
K
When
there
was
a
historic,
American
building
survey,
documentation
of
you
can
see
a
photograph
on
the
slide.
Here
there
had
been
significant
deterioration.
You
can
see
that
the
the
roof
at
that
point
in
time
had
wood
shingles
on
it,
and
so
also,
basically,
looking
back
to
that
point,
that
was
when
preservation
really
began
for
the
property,
it
was
had
the
Habs
documentation
and
then,
following
that
it
was
placed
on
the
Utah
Register
of
historical
sites.
It
was
listed
on
the
National.
K
K
This
was
from
1898
home
coming
from
the
spanish-american
war,
and
you
can
see
on
the
inset
some
of
the
kind
of
the
texture
and
the
the
shape
of
the
shingles,
and
that
indicate
that
it
would
have
been
slate
and
then
a
few
years
later
in
1906,
and
this
is
from
the
rail
yard.
That's
was
located
next
to
the
property
I'm
just
kind
of
zooming
in
you
can
see
again
kind
of
that
texture
and
shape
of
what
would
have
been
sleep
on
the
roof
and
then
on
the
1898
Sanborn
map.
K
There's
a
note
that
says
that
the
third
floor
and
the
French
roof
has
slate
slopes,
and
so
basically
the
issue
for
this
project
is
the
replacement
of
an
architectural
feature
and
staffs
position.
Is
that
the
proposal
to
take
this
replace
the
slate
with
the
asphalt
shingle
roofing
isn't
consistent
with
the
four
of
the
standards
that
are
that
it
reviewed
and
then
also
the
guidelines
that
preserve
original
roof
materials
were
ever
feasible
and
so
for
staffs
recommendation.
K
It's
individually
listed
on
the
National
Register,
that's
also
significant
to
the
history
of
the
community
and
was
restored
in
the
early
in
1880s
to
be
from
this
time
period,
and
so
it's
staffs
position
that
replacement
as
necessary
or
repair
is
the
appropriate
treatment
for
the
property,
and
so
are
there.
Questions.
Thank.
A
F
F
L
Thank
you.
My
name
is
Emily
utt
I
am
the
historic
preservation
specialist
for
the
Church
of
Jesus
Christ
latter-day
saints,
and
this
has
been
an
interesting
project,
a
little
bit
of
personal
history
of
my
history,
with
this
house
as
a
total
wet-behind-the-ears
first
semester,
graduate
student
I
assisted
in
the
completion
of
historic
structure
report
in
2011,
and
it
was
a
fantastic
experience
to
work
with
a
PhD
architectural
historian
to
learn
a
little
bit
about
our
local
history
fast
forward.
L
Two
years,
I
needed
a
thesis
topic
and
so
I
wrote
about
the
Devereux
house
as
about
the
fire
and
about
the
preservation
strategies,
for
what
do
you
do
when
there
is
a
significant
loss
of
historic
fabric?
So
it's
kind
of
been
fun
to
revisit
this
home
now,
a
few
years
after
taking
a
break
friend
when
moving
on
to
other
projects,
so
I
wanted
to
show
a
few
photos.
The
the
earliest
like
like
was
mentioned.
L
This
house
was
to
its
current
appearance
that
highest
state
of
its
design
for
its
period
of
significance
and
between
1877
and
1880,
and
there
are
several
photographs
that
show
the
home
at
about
that
date
about
that.
1880
date
and
these
unfortunately
photos
get
a
little
blurry
and
you
can't
always
see
the
details.
L
So
in
1880,
when
this
house
is
at
its
period
of
significance
likely,
it
is
the
opinion
of
the
owner
that
it
was
a
composition,
roof
at
the
front
part
and
would
shake
at
the
back
of
the
home
by
1898
that
composition.
Roof
is
going
to
now
be
20
years
old
and
be
ready
for
replacement.
So
slate
looks
likely
by
that
by
that
time
period
with
a
historic
photo
laughs.
L
So
in
the
1980s
projects
like
was
mentioned,
they
chose
to
restore
to
1880
but
paid
more
attention
to
that
1898
Sanborn
than
the
contemporary
earliest
source
material
available.
The
data
at
1880.
So
the
current
slate
roof
was
installed
in
1984.
Its
installation
was
based
on
that
1898
Sanborn
map
and
there
have
been
problems
with
this
roof
since
installation,
the
decking
is
half-inch
plywood.
The
industry
standard
for
slate
should
be
at
least
3/4
inch.
So
every
time
you
freeze
thought
happens,
those
nails
start
popping.
L
The
the
Church
of
Jesus
Christ
of
latter-day
saints,
has
owned
this
property
since
2005
and
since
2005
we
have
replaced
15%
of
the
slate
on
this
roof
and
our
roofing
consultant
tells
us
another.
40
percent
will
need
replacement
very
very
soon
to
adequately
repair.
The
slate
will
require
a
complete
reroute
removal
of
the
roof,
decking,
the
underlayment,
all
of
that
material,
and
we
are
out
of
attic
stock.
We
would
have
to
go
find
another
source
to
match
this
slate
and
the
slate
itself
is
fairly
poor
condition
slate.
L
It
was
a
low
grade
slate,
so
the
request
by
the
church
to
restore
to
use
an
asphalt,
shingle
roof
is
based
on
the
historic
structure
report
completed
in
2011,
and
it
was
recommended
that
this
again
at
this
level,
it
is
doubtful
that
the
slates
were
ever
placed
on
the
building
in
that
historic
period,
and
so
the
recommendation
was
to
move
to
wood.
Shingle
we've
had
some.
You
know,
we've
learned
more
recommending
an
asphalt.
L
We
also
feel
that
this
recommendation
is
in
line
with
the
design
guidelines
where
it
says
that
when
material
is
deteriorated
beyond
use
a
new
material,
that
is
a
rigid
that
is
similar
to
the
original
and
style
and
texture.
So,
although
slate
is
existing,
it
is
not
original.
It
is
20
years
after
the
period
of
significance,
so
again
would
an
asphalt,
shingles,
shingles
or
appropriate
place
materials
for
most
roofs.
L
So
I
brought
a
sample
of
the
roofing
material
that
we
are
recommending
and
again
the
same
image
that
was
shown
earlier,
that
we
did
a
little
rendering
this
against
the
house,
and
so
our
the
our
research
has
shown
that
the
original
material
was
a
composition
with
wood
shake
on
the
back.
We
would
like
to
return
it
to
a
material
that
is
more
similar
to
that
original
and
plus
a
little
easier
to
maintain
would
be
helpful
too.
After
you
take
any
questions.
L
Would
have
been
a
combination
of
like
a
tar
paper
with
a
rolled
asphalt
kind
of
surface
on
it,
so
the
the
individual
shingle
is
more
of
an
early
20th
century
modification,
but
it
would
have
been
almost
a
tarpaper
roof,
with
impregnated
with
asphalt
and
other
kind
of
binders
to
create
some
waterproofing
on
it.
In.
L
J
J
J
Just
you
know,
you've
answered
the
question
that
I
had
that
you're
gonna
have
to
replace
the
substrate
one
way
or
the
other,
because
it's
it's
it's
deteriorated
and
it's
a
little
thin.
You
know
the
I'm
just
concerned
that
it's
going
to
look
significantly
different
with
the
asphalt
shingles.
I
know
that
there's
a
smashing,
those
that
have
thicker
faces
and
and
thicker
profiles
so
that
you
do
get
a
little
bit
of
shadow
line
like
you
do
with
the
suede.
J
F
Think
for
me,
a
I
understand
that
you
know
originally
it
would
have
been
tar
paper
and
that
you
know
that
look
is
uniform.
Shingles
are
to
me
very
modern,
I.
Think
I
have
a
hard
time
with
that.
I
understand
that
as
far
as
the
material,
but
the
look
of
it
is
so
much
different
than
original,
and
while
we
were
there
today,
there
was
another
sample
that
was
the
of
a
synthetic
synthetic
slate
yeah.
So
if
you
know,
if
I'd,
how
come
that
was
taken
out
of
the
the
running
for
possible
replacement.
L
So
one
of
the
initial
ideas
was
to
use
it
than
synthetic
slate
and
the
more
we
got
into
the
research
and
saw
that
the
slate
was
a
later
modification.
The
idea
was
to
take
it
back
to
an
asphalt,
but
there's
yeah
and
I
agree.
The
the
it
is
a
very
visually
prominent
part
of
this
building,
so
I,
don't
think
we
would
I,
don't
think
I
would
want
to
advocate
to
go
back
to
a
tar
paper.
L
Roof
I
think
that's
that's
a
little
too
historic,
so
I
think
finding
something
in
the
middle
that
that
approximates
a
historic
look,
but
is
some?
You
know
that
some
were
you
know
a
little
more
manageable
dealing
with
the
aesthetics
of
the
building
in
a
more
manageable
way.
So,
though,
yeah
those
were
our
kind
of
two
options.
M
L
L
L
L
A
L
A
A
F
Want
to
talk
about
potential,
you
know
with
wood
shingles,
so
I
mean
there's.
There
are
composites
that
look
like
wood,
shingles
and
I.
Keep
finding
myself
thinking
that
asphalt.
Shingles
just
seemed
to
me
to
scream
modern.
Have
you
looked
into
it,
something
you
know
similar
to
like
a
hardy
roofing,
the
hardy
panel
roofing
that
looks
more
like
a
wood
shake
yeah
there.
L
Are
a
lot
of
options
that
we
could
that
we
could
go?
I
would
be
concerned
about
the
maintenance
issues
with
the
hardy
Board
roof.
They
don't
or
Hardy
board
in
general,
I
I
usually
don't
encourage
my
architects
and
contractors
to
use
Hardy
board
on
historic,
19th
century
structures.
The
material
doesn't
age
well,
but
I'm
sure
there
are
other
synthetics
out
there
that
that
could
work
as
well.
F
C
L
So
so
I
was
a
research
assistant
on
that
report.
We
did
church
hired.
We
hired
a
consultant
to
write
that
report
and
I
provided
some
research
background
for
them.
The
the
impetus
of
that
report.
There
was
some.
There
was
a
lot
of
discussion
internally
in
the
church
of
finding
an
appropriate
use
for
that
building.
There
were
you
know,
should
it
had
been
a
restaurant?
It
was
an
event
venue
for
a
while.
There
was
some
discussion.
Do
we
turn
it
into
additional
office
space?
L
Those
kinds
of
things,
so
the
historic
church
report
was
completed
in
large
part
to
give
some
ideas
of
what
historic
elements
still
remained,
and
so,
if
future
modifications
needed
to
be
made,
we
could
preserve
those
things
that
needed
to
be
and
then
also
give
some
ideas
for
future
uses
of
the
building.
Okay,
yeah,
but.
C
In
the
1980s
recommendations
to
the
governor
for
this
landmark
building,
which
received
federal
state
and
RDA
funds,
there's
a
lot
of
public
funds
that
went
into
that
1980s
recommendation
mm-hmm
and
therefore
slate
was
put
on
and
paid
for
with
taxpayer
dollars.
And
then
the
applicant
funded
a
2011
report
that,
provided
you
know,
less
expensive
options,
I'm
ending
on
uses
yeah
well,
just
so
a
good.
L
Point
here,
yeah,
so
I
think
the
recommendations
to
change
to
it,
historic
to
a
different
material
are
based
on
that
1880
period
of
significance
and
and
I
think.
Another
reason
to
complete
that
report
is
now
that
the
the
project
was
done
in
the
80s.
It's
always
good
to
revisit
to
come
back
and
say:
okay,
what
was
actually
done
versus
what
was
supposed
to
be
done.
L
L
They
did
many
things
very
very
well,
but
there
were
a
few
things
that
I
think
there's
new
research
has
shown
that
they
maybe
made
a
couple
of
the
decisions
that
we
wouldn't
maybe
make
today,
and
my
guess
is
that
give
it
another
30
years
and
we'll
find
another
historic
photograph
or
we'll
find
another
investigative
analysis
and
we'll
maybe
come
to
a
different
conclusion
on
things
as
well.
But
you
know
we,
we
base
our
recommendations
off
the
data
we
have
available
to
us
at
the
time
we're
doing
the
reports.
E
L
J
L
J
Just
just
after
seeing
this
weight,
which
is,
is
thinner
than
what
we
would
normal
use
ticking
off
the
existing
suede
there
would
be
some
percentage
of
breakage
just
taking
it
off
the
building.
You
know
having
a
better
substrate
that
that'd
be
the
great
thing
today
and
certainly
I
understand
trying
to
replicate
that
slate.
Although
it's
still
available,
you
know
it's
it
it's
available
and
it's
available
in
multiple.
E
J
J
The
the
thing
that
that
I
think
is
is
important.
Just
looking
at
it
historically
is
that
that
the
roof
doesn't
look
uniform.
The
slate
itself
is,
is
multi
ins,
probably
like
three
or
four
or
five
different
colors.
It's
got
a
real
strong
shadow
line
and,
and
my
fear
is
going
with
another
material
and
looking
uniform
just
that
uniformity
is
going
to
stand
out
on
a
prominent
man,
sort
roof
that
you
know,
I
mean
looking.
J
You
know
looking
at
that,
it's
it's
not
a
uniform
color
one
way
or
the
other
and
then
introducing
something
you
know
like
like
what
you're
talking
about
is
is
gonna
significantly
change,
that
and
and
that,
if
indeed
it
does
go
with
the
competition
we've
got
to
have
three
or
four
different
colors.
Otherwise,
it's
just
it's
just
going
to
look
long
and
it's
not
gonna.
Look
historic
anymore.
It's
going
to
look
like
what
you
talked
about.
It's
going
to
be
new
on
old,
so
it'll
it'll
stand
out,
yeah.
L
E
M
A
M
Well,
I
I
think
I
just
am
really
ready
to
acknowledge
what
I
don't
know,
which
is
how
this
has
progressed
through
time
and
what
the
materials
ever
were.
The
I
think
the
photographic
evidence
that
we've
seen
is
completely
ambiguous.
I
don't
have
a
clue
what
it
shows,
with
the
exception
of
the
1967
photo,
which
is
really
clearly
would
shake,
and
that
being
the
case
in
I
am
inclined
to
let
the
tie
go
to
the
owner
and
respect
their
wishes
within
certain
bounds
and
I.
Think
this
project
I
mean
this
material
or
something
like
it.
M
That
is
aimed
at
referencing
would
shake,
which
we
know
was
a
historically
present
material
during
the
history
of
the
building
is
a
respectable
move
going
forward
and
one
that
we
approve,
in
other
circumstances,
with
absolutely
no
thought
whatsoever.
It
just
happens.
Administrative
Leiby
cuz,
their
countless
houses
here
in
the
avenues
and
elsewhere
that
were
built
originally
with
would
shake
shingles
and
that
have
been
replaced
with
asphalt
over
time,
and
we
don't
even
question
that
at
all.
So
to
me,
I
think
the
proposal
is
reasonable
and
I'd
be
happy
to
delegate
the
exact
detail.
M
I
understand
the
1980s
decision
to
me
is
in
the
sand
board.
The
1980s
decision
is
totally
irrelevant.
In
my
opinion,
I
mean
that's
a
non
historic
material
word
and
it
was
changed
from
what
was
there
presently
so
I.
Don't
consider
that
we've
heard
equally
compelling
evidence
that
it
was
either
wood
shake
or
some
sort
of
cheap
product
to
during
a
period
of
high
historic
significance
to
slate.
That
being
the
case,
I
don't
know
why
we
would
choose
one
over
the
other
and
I
defer
to
the
owner.
M
J
J
That
did
you
see
with
the
slate
anything
less
than
that
I
think
will
really
really
stand
out,
like
my
gut
would
tell
me
so
I'd
really
like
slate
slates,
been
around
since
the
Renaissance.
It's
great.
It's
particularly
used
on
on
mansard
roofs,
because
you
know
the
roof.
Is
this
way,
as
opposed
to
you
know
one
to
two
I
understand
the
issues
with
it
in
terms
of
breakage
and
maintenance,
and
things
like
that
I
get
that.
J
F
F
Also,
though,
that
I,
that
you
know
I've
just
been
on
the
commission
for
a
few
months,
but
I
personally
agree
that
you
know
we're
allowing
things
to
go
open
the
avenues
that
maybe
you
know
we're
kind
of
double
standard
here,
but
maybe
we
shouldn't
be
approving
that
for
those
homes
either.
Maybe
we
should
be
trying
to
do
something
a
little
more
historic,
but
just.
C
To
make
it
I
mean
just
I
want
to
make
a
distinction
here,
these
houses
up
in
the
avenues
where
we've
administrative
Lee
made
decisions.
This
is
a
landmark
site.
Those
were
contributing
buildings
within
the
local
historic
district.
So
this
is
an
exceptional
example
on
the
city
register.
That's
why
it's
in
front
of
you
tonight
which
it
should
garner
robust
discussion.
Thank
you.
That's.
J
A
Know
good
shingles
a
thirty
year
guarantee
guess
what
I
didn't
hear
a
night.
I
didn't
think
to
ask
is:
what's
the
maybe
you
should
bring
the
applicant
back
up,
but
why
doesn't
the
church
want
to
go
with
the
slate?
Is
it
a
question
of
cost
or
are
there
other
things
would
could
I
ask
that
if
the
applicant
please,
what's
the
thank
you
what's
yeah.
L
Because
the
the
since
the
church
has
owned
this
property,
the
facilities
group
has
spent
a
lot
of
money.
Maintaining
this
slate
and
I
think
at
this
point
for
them.
They're
they're,
dealing
with
the
material
that
has
been
failing
for
the
15
years
of
the
church's
on
this
property
and
I
think
they're,
tired
of
dealing
with
material,
that's
failing
and
a
slate
that
hasn't
that
hasn't
been
working.
L
L
B
E
Yes
feel
like
that's
kind
of
where
I'm
at
also.
If
it
worried
that
properly
in
this
new
remodel,
then
you
would
have
those
50
to
70
years
left,
cuz
you're,
saying
you
ruined
it
for
fifteen
years,
so
that's
like
2005,
and
this
was
installed
in
the
80s,
so
it
was
already
25
years
old,
like
poor
installation.
So
definitely
it's
gonna
look
the
way
that
it
does
now,
but
where
I'm
at
is
like
the
material
is
still
available,
it
is
viable
and
the
applicant
hasn't
submitted
a
financial
hardship
application.
Then
it
just
doesn't
seem
I'm.
E
L
F
B
B
F
K
A
A
A
M
B
A
A
N
N
This
is
a
this
is
a
request
from
Garbett
homes,
for
a
certificate
of
appropriateness
for
new
construction
in
a
historic
district
for
a
single-family
attached
residential
development
of
25
dwelling
units
in
a
configuration
of
five
separate
buildings.
They're
also
asking
for
two
special
exception
requests
from
you:
projects
located
at
432,
North,
300,
West,
Bishop,
Place.
Familiar
with
that.
Currently,
the
properties
that
are
associated
with
the
proposed
development
are
occupied
by
abandoned
structures.
There
might
be
one
that's
inhabited,
however.
N
I
just
want
to
make
it
clear,
because
I'm
not
sure
that
everybody
is
aware
that
this
project
this
has
gone
through
an
extensive
demolition
request
process.
The
Commission
I,
don't
know
as
several
years
ago
denied
the
request
for
demolition
of
all
the
structures
along
Bishop
place
that
was
taken
to
an
economic
hardship
panel
and
that
panel
found
that
that
that
three
of
the
buildings
should
be
rehabbed,
and
that
decision
was
taken
to
the
mayor
and
the
mayor
signed
off
on
the
remaining
three.
N
So
all
of
the
buildings
along
Bishop
place
that
are
part
of
this
project,
have
been
approved
for
demolition,
so
we're
asking
tonight
to
hold
a
work
session
to
discuss
the
application
materials
and
provide
your
input
as
done
before.
There
are
things
that
we
asked
you
to
look
at.
You
may
want
to
discuss
with
the
applicant.
N
This
is
the
site
plan
that
they're
proposing
and
while
we're
looking
at
the
site
plan
in
terms
of
the
special
exception,
requests
that
they're
asking
for
they're
asking
for
a
reduced
width
lot
size
from
22
feet,
which
is
required
by
zone
to
19
feet,
they're,
also
requesting
a
rear
yard
setback
of
10
feet
instead
of
15,
and
so
this
this
is
the
area
here.
That
is
the
rear
yard.
So
this
is
the
area
that
they're
asking
for
that
exception.
This
area
here
would
be
considered
a
side
yard.
So
it's
strictly
right
there.
Why.
N
So
just
wanted
to
make
that
clarification
so
from
you
that
this
is
theirs
their
multi
procedures
that
have
to
be
approved
for
this
project
to
come
to
fruition,
and
so
the
applicant
is
looking.
You
know
for
the
the
landmark
Commission
to
approve
the
new
construction
with
the
special
exception
requests.
In
addition,
they'll
have
to
go
to
the
Planning
Commission,
because
this
street
Bishop
place
is
actually
a
private
street.
N
So
these
structures,
with
the
exception
of
this
structure,
that
fronts
on
3rd
west
none
of
these
have
public
street
frontage,
so
that
requires
plan
development,
approval
or
consideration
and
also
they'll
go
to
the
Planning
Commission
for
subdivision
approval.
You
can
certainly
weigh
in
on
what
you
think
about
the
subdivision.
That
would
probably
be
helpful
in
your
packet
I've
outlined
issues
for
discussion
tonight.
N
This
is
a
suggested.
There
may
be
other
issues
that
you
want
to
identify
and
discuss
with
the
applicant,
but
the
things
that
we've
identified
that
you
may
want
to
discuss
tonight
include
density,
that
rear
yard
setback
that
I
just
spoke
of
the
reduction.
The
lot
width
that
I
spoke
of
I
would
ask
that
you
weigh
in
on
the
the
front
facade
of
the
building
that
fronts
on
300
West,
in
particular,
planning
staff
finds
that
there
are
some
issues
with
that.
E
N
E
O
P
P
P
The
ones
that
are
this
front
building
or
we're
calling
this
building
one
and
if
you
can
see
my
cursor,
but
that's
the
building
that
does
have
some
frontage
on
to
300
West,
with
all
the
other
buildings
face
somewhat
internally
and
are
adjacent
to
other
uses.
There's
some
residential
uses
to
the
south.
There's
a
multi-family
project
to
the
east
Church
to
the
north.
Most
of
the
adjacent
properties
on
300
west
are
commercial
uses
I'm
going
up
through
this
a
little
bit
more
house
kind
of
squeeze
where.
J
P
For
the
most
part,
the
layout
is
similar
to
what
it
was
before,
and
the
orientation
of
the
homes
and
everything
I'll
kind
of
skip
forward
through
some
of
this.
So
a
lot
of
the
homes
that
were
there
originally
are
very
small,
as
you,
as
you
may
know,
or
you
may
have
seen,
and
mostly
wood
frame
structures
of
small
scale.
Simple,
simple
shapes,
simple
forms.
The
one
exception,
probably
is
the
one
that
faces:
300
East
that
has
a
little
bit
more
detail
to
it
as
more
of
a
Craftsman
era,
style
structure.
P
O
P
P
This
kind
of
compares
the
the
home
that
is
there
now
and
what
we're
proposing
we're
trying
to
keep
the
same
relatively
the
same
massing
relatively
the
same
scale,
not
necessarily
the
same
design,
of
course,
but
scale
wise
and
how
it
would
interact
with
the
street
frontage
are
trying
to
at
least
maintain
that
presence.
Some
of
these
are
just
aerial
shots
showing
how
it
integrates
with
with
the
neighborhood.
P
B
P
B
P
P
So
this
image
shows
a
little.
If
you
can
see
the
dashed
lines
are
representing
the
approximate
location
of
where
the
existing
home
is.
You
can
see
the
approximate
shape
of
the
original
gable.
We
do
have
some
elements,
obviously
that
tie
back
to
that.
We
do
have
a
gable
form
there.
We
do
have
a
front
door
facing
the
street
with
the
front
porch,
that's
also
facing
the
street
trying
to
engage
the
street
as
well.
Obviously
we
are
a
different
design
or
a
different
composition.
We're
not
trying
to
mimic
that
part
of
it
is.
P
If
we
tried
to
mimic
what
was
there
too
much,
then
it
gets
somewhat
foreign
to
what's
going
on
with
the
rest
of
the
project,
and
so
we're
trying
to
be
cognizant
of
that
and
a
little
bit
careful
of
that
trying
to
keep
it.
So
it
still
ties
together
and
you
don't
have
one
facade
that
looks
so
so
much
different
than
everything
else.
I
know
that
there
has
been
some
concerns
about
this
facade
that
staff
has
brought
up,
and
there
are
some
ways
that
we
can
address
that.
P
As
far
as
there
were
some
questions
about
windows
and
fenestration,
and
things
like
that
that
we
are
prepared
to
address
one
of
the
concerns
that
came
up
multiple
times
was
possibly
the
extension
of
the
front
porch
along
the
entire
facade.
That
is
something
that
we
can
do,
and
even
even
reallocating
or
repositioning
the
Gable
somewhat
to
be
a
little
bit
more
central
or
more
symmetrical
like
the
original
home.
Was
we're
not
going
to
be
the
original
home
no,
but
we
can
get
more
in
line
with
that.
If
that's
the
desire
that.
A
I
wonder
on
this
you're.
Currently,
your
reference
is
keeping
to
the
alleyway,
so
you've
oriented
your
primary
facade
to
the
south
there,
whereas
perhaps
it
should
be
to
the
east,
and
this
one
unit
perhaps
reflects
the
fact
that
is
sitting
on
third
west
and
it
would
require
a
fairly
major
redesign
of
that.
But
it
might
give
more
Street
relevance
and
reference
I.
A
P
A
O
A
A
They
just
think
it's
like
a
orientation
of
the
focus
of
that
unit
and
again
not
going
to
get
into
picking
apart
design
elements,
because
you
guys
are
good.
You
know
what
you
can
do
and
you
can.
You
know
you
might
disagree
with
me
and
not
want
to
change
it
around,
but
I'm.
Just
saying
that's
how
it
strikes
me.
F
F
F
P
This
is
an
example
of
a
lot
of
the
homes
in
the
neighborhood.
It's
a
little
hard
to
see.
I
mean
this
is
the
one
that's
right
next
door,
which
is
I,
don't
know
exactly
when
it
was
built,
but
it's
certainly
more
modern.
It's
not
totally
historic
a
lot,
but
a
lot
of
these
homes
that
prime
you
know
predominantly.
There
are
Nick's
of
single
hung,
windows
or
double
hung
windows
with
some
picture
windows.
So
it's
it's
a
it's
a
mix,
okay,.
F
P
So
I,
you
know,
and
frankly,
I'm
not
even
sure
what
was
originally
there,
but
it
could
have
been
a
pair
of
windows
or
it
could
have
been
one
single
window,
I'm,
not
100%
sure,
but
a
lot
of
them.
If
you
look
at
all
the
historical
photos
of
them,
they
are
a
mix
of
essentially
single
or
double
hung
windows
with
some
more
square
shape,
picture
windows
in
the
mix.
J
Especially
at
the
South,
you
know
there's
the
the
homes
that
are
long
there
or
you
know
to
the
street
pushback.
You
know
they're
that
kind
of
thing
one
and
the
second
thing
there's
just
there
was
a
lot
of
color
and
and
the
and
I
think
that's
that's
kind
of
the
you
know
one
of
the
nice
things
about
that.
Neighborhood
is
just
there's
multiplicity
of
colors.
When
I
take
a
look
at
that,
your
your
South
elevation,
it's
just
just
very,
very
regular
and
I'm
just
curious.
Did
you?
Is
there
any
consideration
of
having
multiple
colors?
J
P
P
D
My
name
is
Victoria
a
Westside
resident
and
I've
got
a
lot
of
thoughts.
I'm
gonna
go
ahead,
and
preface
this
by
saying
the
bishop
place
project
was
a
labor
of
love
for
several
of
us
sitting
up
here,
and
the
decision
to
demolish
was
devastating
part
of
the
thing
that
is
so
amazing
about
marmalade.
It
is
not
a
bladed
district.
I
am
thankful
for
garbetts
presence
in
the
city,
but
your
presence
in
the
city
hasn't
made.
You
fantastically
positioned
to
do
right
by
this
property
here.
What
is
so
amazing
about
Bishop
place
about
marmalade
in
general.
D
Is
how
not
cookie-cutter
it
is?
You
can
walk
and
there
are
marginalized
people
living
there.
There
are
rainbow
flags
up
and
down
every
street.
You
can
go
to
blue
copper,
coffee
and
see
every
kind
of
person
in
that
place.
You
that
is
my
neighborhood
dry.
Cleaner.
There
Jardine's
garde
a
dry
cleaner,
it
is
emblematic
of
something
fantastic.
Bishop
Place
was
emblematic
of
a
sort
of
historical
planning
and
community.
That
is
absolutely
not
seen
anymore.
D
What
was
so
fantastic
about
it
is
that,
as
you
walked
through
those
structures,
even
the
ones
that
we
very
very
but
grudgingly
conceded
had
to
be
demolished
was
that
there
was
space
to
breathe
in
there
that
there
was
a
community
being
built
there.
Weren't
neighbors,
who
were
gonna,
push
a
button
on
their
garage
and
get
in
before
they
had
to
learn
the
names
of
their
neighbors
and
then
push
that
button
before
anyone
talked
to
them.
This
is
anathema
to
the
spirit
that
belongs
in
marmalade.
D
This
is
anathema
to
the
spirit
that
belongs
in
any
of
the
west
side.
It
looks
complete
I
come
from
music,
originally
I'm
on
the
Historic
Landmark
Commission,
because
of
my
interest
in
historical
things
and
the
humanities,
and
we
are
living
in
a
beautiful
collection
of
symphonic,
folk
songs
and
you're.
Giving
us
a
minimalist
cacophony
here.
I
understand
that
some
of
your
elements
work
together,
architectural
II.
It
doesn't
work
for
the
area
that
you're
trying
to
put
it.
M
M
The
design
of
the
project
preserves
the
pattern
of
lot
and
building
site
sizes
that
create
the
urban
character
of
the
historic
context
and
the
block
face
and
I,
don't
think
you've
honored
that
in
either
block
face
that's
applicable
here
either
the
bishop
place
block
face
or
the
third
West
block
face,
because
there's
not
a
single
multifamily
presence
on
either
one
of
those
streets.
These
are
all
tiny
little
homes
and
some
some
businesses,
two
duplexes,
but
nothing
larger
than
that.
M
I
would
also
look
at
standard
four,
which
is
building
form
and
scale
and
section
a
which
is
character
of
the
street
block.
The
design
of
the
building
reflects
the
historic
character
of
the
street
facade
in
terms
of
scale,
composition
and
modeling.
It's
really
hard
to
imagine
coming
up
with
the
design.
That's
further
from
the
historic
context.
I
mean
it's
not
it's.
Like
you
didn't
think
of
it,
and
then
the
last
thing
is
massing,
the
shame.
M
O
I
just
want
to
thank
you
for
your
input.
Paul
appreciate
that
just
a
couple
things
on
that
we
kind
of
came
from
and
where
maybe
it's
a
little
bit
different
for
you.
One
of
the
HLC
code
says
that
structures
objects
shall
be
recognized
products
their
own
time
and
seeking
to
create
a
false
sense
of
history.
Architecture
are
not
allowed,
so
that
was
one
of
our
ideas
was
coming
up
with
this
design,
rather
than
just
trying
to
kind
of
copy
or
replicate
something
older.
O
M
Not
on
the
block
phase
and
with
not
on
either
block
phase
and
with
respect
to
the
being
a
product
of
its
own
time,
I
think
there's
anybody
on
the
Commission,
that's
more
of
an
advocate
for
true
modern
architecture
than
me,
I'm,
having
get
a
long
record
of
that,
but
we're
not
talking
about
design
were
time
to
form
that's
what
those
standards
talking
about.
So
if
you
were
coming
with
a
series
of
little
mikata
jizz
that
were
extraordinarily
modern
I'd
have
your
back
all
the
way,
but
because
that
would
observe
the
historic.
M
O
The
other
part
of
our
thinking
on
that
too
was
the
housing
crisis
that
Salt
Lake
City
is
in
that's
talked
about
in
the
memorandum,
and
we
didn't
actually
maximize
the
density
on
this.
We
do
have
room
to
increase
the
number
of
homes,
but
we
have
tried
to
be
where
we
can
sensitive
to
that
and
doing
something
that
keeps
some
open
space
and
something
that
works,
but
at
the
same
time,
building
homes
that
people
can
afford
to
live
in.
A
A
An
important
thing
in
neighborhoods
is
front
entries
and
front
porches
places
for
people
to
relax
and
interact
and
in
in
these
units,
you're
going
in
and
you're
going
up,
perhaps
you're
up
on
your
balcony,
and
you
can
greet
your
neighbor,
but
it's
not
quite
the
same
as
as
being
on
the
ground,
one
of
the
things
about
Bishop
place
and
the
half-dozen
others
other
types
of
developments
that
are
left
here
in
the
city.
There
was
a
really
nice
one
presented
to
us
a
couple
months
ago,
requesting
historic
status
down
near
the
ballpark.
A
There's,
there's
a
little
more
green
space
around
them.
There
they're,
not
a
block
of
half
a
dozen
and
I
know.
You've
got
economic
pressures
to
do
this
and
I
know
you're
not
building
out
to
your
allowable
density,
but
all
these
little
pieces
working
together
combined
to
to
bring
the
concerns
that
you
heard
that
it's
not.
O
F
Yeah
I
personally,
don't
like
the
you
know
that
it's
going
to
be
affordable
argument
either.
That's
even
at
400,000,
that's
not
affordable
for
the
folks
that
need
it.
So
density
I
think
at
that
point
becomes
sort
of
moot,
and
you
know
there
I
agree
with
Kenton
that
there
needs
to
be
more
green
space.
A
A
A
O
And
I
appreciate
that
feedback
that
will
be
really
helpful
in
looking
at
this.
One
thing,
I
did
want
to
comment
again
was
probably
using
kind
of
a
different
definition
for
the
word
affordable,
so
I
won't
use
that
and
in
what
I
initially
said,
was
homes
that
people
actually
can
buy
a
lot
of
people
that
we've
seen
in
our
other
projects
that
come
down
to
Salt
Lake
City
is
young
professionals
early
on
in
their
career,
and
this
really
is
the
type
of
home
that
they
actually
could
afford
to
buy.
J
They
and
I'm
just
going
to
use
a
couple
words
there
there's
if,
when
you
drive
around
the
neighborhood
there's
this
charming
quirkiness
to
it,
you
know
and
and
so
I'm
going
to
say,
quirky
on
this
side
and
monolithic
on
this
side.
You
know
I'm,
not
gonna,
get
to
the
same
thing
like
you
are,
you
know,
I'm,
not
gonna.
Tell
you
how
to
design
you
guys
are
talented
architects.
There
just
needs
to
be
a
little
bit
more
blending
of
the
of
what
you
need
programmatically
and
to
make
the
proform
of
work.
J
I
understand
that
part,
but
there's
got
to
be
a
little
bit
more
quirkiness
to
fit
into
this
neighborhood
because
it
demands
it
that
you
know
there's
just
it.
This
looks
a
bit
alien
to
to
the
neighbors
across
the
street.
You
know
the
you
know
to
the
to
the
church
parking
lot.
I,
don't
think
it
matters.
You
know
to
the
other
parking
light
and
whatever,
but
it
you
know
it's
just
that.
There's
just
I'll
just
go
with
that.
I
mean
there's.
J
B
B
A
B
M
One
other
thing
I
just
wanted
to
raise,
which
is
on
the
special
exceptions.
I
actually
am
concerned
about
him
and
part
of
the
reason
is
the
way
the
ordinance
is
written.
There
are
several
special
exceptions
that
we
deal
with
a
lot
that
we
just
have
the
authority
to
grant
things
like:
building
wall
height,
accessory
structure,
height
those
we
we
have
sort
of
that
well
within
the
veg
that
special
exception
guidelines
that
apply
to
all
special
exceptions.
We
kind
of
have
carte
blanche
to
grant
those,
but
the
with
respect
to
lot
and
bulk
restrictions.
M
The
ordinance
is
different
and
it
what
it
says
is
any
modification
to
bulk
and
lot
regulations
of
the
underlying
zoning
district.
Where
does
we're
allowed
to
grant
a
special
exception
to
bulk
and
lot
regulations
of
the
underlying
zoning
district,
where
it
is
found
that
the
underlying
zoning
would
not
be
compatible
with
the
historic
district
here,
the
underlying
zoning
is
completely
compatible
with
the
underlying
zoning
district.
M
You
know
it's
sr3.
We
have
little
single-family
and
two
family
homes
and
it's
completely
compatible
with
this
historic
district.
Now
that
would
be
different
if
the
underlying
zoning
called
for
commercial
and
we-
and
we
had
a
a
series
of
little
cottages
like
this
in
this.
In
that
case,
I
think,
would
make
a
ton
of
sense
to
grant.
It
would
be
totally
warranted
to
grant
special
exceptions,
but
here
I
think
there's
absolutely
no
basis
for
it
and
I
don't
think
we
even
could
are.
C
C
A
A
O
Good
yeah,
thank
you
for
that,
and
that's
kind
of
one
of
the
things
I'm
looking
heretofore
is
some
of
those
clear
impressions,
because
I
feel,
like
we've,
actually
got
a
really
good
pulse
on
what
the
market
has
and
what
people
want
to
buy.
But
one
thing
we
probably
don't
have
a
good
idea
is
what
the
HLC
is
looking
for.
So
getting
some
of
that
feedback,
even
though
Tyler
is
very
talented,
I'm
having
that
input,
because
we
know
what
the
market
wants
and
what
they're
looking
forward
to
purchase
a
home.
O
E
D
Market
forces
clearly
at
work
as
Marmalade
property
values
inflate
like
Gosset
and
diversion
Erie
on
any
given
Friday
night
and
watch.
Who
is
there
and
ask
them
the
questions?
Don't
you're?
Building
in
you
like
not
just
the
architecture,
there
is
idiosyncratic.
It
is
a
community
of
people
who
actually
know
each
other's
names
and
themselves
value.
What
is
there
so
your
market
forces
are
impacting
a
community
already
in
progress.
You
should
friend
raised
while
you
fundraise
for
this
project
and
go
go
into
blue
copper.
Go
meet
the
people
there.
D
O
O
A
D
Sure
so
respecting
some
of
those
things
that
are
idiomatic
to
the
community,
so
such
as
a
little
bit
of
green
area
in
breathing
space
community
gathering
sites,
the
sorts
of
things
that
are
not
monolithic
that
reflect
architectural
ii-if.
We're
gonna
put
this
many
people
in
there
in
a
way
that
respects
the
what's
going
on
around
it
cool,
but
this
design
doesn't
do
it
and,
as
a
matter
of
fact,
this
design
communicates
to
us
that
all
of
those
things
have
been
disregarded.
So
there
have
to
be
architectural
elements.
D
I'm
not
saying
the
number
of
people
you're
trying
to
put
in
there
is
wrong.
I'm
saying
the
way
you're
trying
to
put
them
in
there
is
not
acceptable.
Much
like
what
Paul
was
communicating
to
you.
So,
as
I
said,
I
am
from
the
historic
in
the
manatees
and
those
elements
of
it
are
what
appealed
to
me.
I
defer
to
those
of
you
who
understand
architectural
concepts,
how
to
realize
it.
But
what
what
we've
seen
demonstrates
that
perhaps
some
really
important
questions
haven't
been
asked
and
answered
in
this
community
good.
F
Sorry
an
interruption
please,
but
you
referenced
some
of
the
courtyard
communities
and-
and
they
feel
very
welcoming
you
know
they
feel
open
kind
of
in
the
middle
to
each
other,
where
this
is
like
again
kind
of
this
pinched
feeling
you
know
and
and
I
and
I
again
having
to
go
back
to
kind
of
the
design
aspect
of
it
to
that
it
doesn't
feel
like
it
fits
the
area.
It
really
doesn't.
You're
gonna
see
that
type
of
architecture
in
the
suburbs.
This
doesn't
feel
yeah.
It.
B
A
D
We
want
density
that
respects.
What
is
there
so,
if
it's
possible
to
maintain
this
density,
but
in
a
way
that
kind
of
gives
some
breathing
room
to
what's
going
on
if
it
cool
I'm
all
for
creativity,
but
I,
don't
want
density
at
the
expense
of
the
breathing
room.
The
the
community
elements
that
that
are
already
present
like
Bishop
place
when
we
all
toured
it
like
it,
was
like
visiting
a
magical
fairy
land
back
there.
D
F
A
J
Back
home
from
New
York
and
spend
a
little
bit
of
time
in
Brooklyn
and
the
density
doesn't
bother
me,
you
know
it's
it's
it's
the
monolithic
nature
of
the
density
and
I.
Think
there's.
You
know,
thinking
of
the
the
for
story
and
five-story
walk-up
sand
in
Brooklyn,
where
there's
neighbor
against
neighbor
against
neighbor,
but
there's
porches
along
the
word
and
you
you,
you
interact
with
each
other,
because
you're
you're,
this
close
and
and
I,
think
that's
that's
something
that
that
that
could
easily
be
heightened.
J
J
E
To
me
personally,
lake
self-segregation,
like
we
don't
want
to
see
the
rest
of
you
that
are
around
the
neighborhood,
so
we're
gonna
be
tucked
into
this
hole
and
you
won
the
Sikh
community
because
it's
an
existing
community
and
these
folks
that
are
moving
in
they're
now
moving
into
the
area
just
because
it's
affordable
it's
because
they
like
the
quirkiness
and
they
want
to
go
to
the
coffee
shop.
It's
a
specific
profile
of
individual.
That's
gonna
want
to
go,
live
there
rather
than
holiday,
so
fostering
at
community.
Don't
self
segregate.
M
P
A
Driveways,
you
know
the
the
the
yeah
the
grass
pave
in
in
that
make
it
a
little
less
stark.
You
haven't
really
indicated
or
not,
that
I've
seen
that
it's
concrete
drive
or
what
it
is,
but
it's
their
way
to
soften
that
front
and
bring
up
connection
out
onto
grade
there.
You
see
on
the
on
the
single
single
garage
units,
there's
not
really
a
living
space,
there's
just
that
entry
and
foyer,
but
still
some
connection
to
the
ground
in
the
neighborhood
in
the
street
and
some
way
of
softening
all
that
might
might
be
advantageous.
O
A
To
see
how
it
developed,
what
no,
how
it
turned
out
in
the
plans,
but
it's
something
that
comes
to
mind,
is
I
think
about
ways
to
offer
you
the
ability
to
not
lose
money
on
this,
make
some
money
on
it
and
get
the
density
in
you
need.
But
we
need
also
to
take
into
account
the
the
important
things
that
the
other
members
have
said
too.
So
you
know
it's
hard
to
say
equivocal
II.
D
Typically
speaking,
I've
seen
this
body
be
very
deliberative,
with
Gipp
granting
exceptions
if
they're
well,
earned
and
well
warranted
density
and
balance
sheets
typically
are
not
what
help
us
meet
the
criteria
for
granting
those
exceptions.
But
if
there's
a
design
reason,
that's
compelling
I've
seen
us
be
able
to
deliberate
and
meet
needs
quite
well.
A
B
A
O
A
I
think
at
this
point,
the
balls
back
in
your
court
we've.
Given
you
concepts
and
concerns
about
the
approach
we
have
not
given
you
many
specifics
as
we're,
not
at
a
point
where
we're
able
to
do
that
really
and
we're
we're
almost
at
a
point
that
we
should
have
been
at
when
you
were
sketching
out
site
plan
and
massing
and
relationships.
A
You
know
I,
you've
gone
quite
a
bit
further
with
that
and
that's
fine,
but
I
think
you
probably
have
to
step
back
and
think
about
some
of
the
basic
site
planning
issues
and
see
what
you've
accomplished
to
try
to
meet
the
intent
of
the
Commission
that
you've
heard
tonight,
while
also
looking
at
your
pro
forma
and
your
economics
and
what
you
need
out
of
that.
There's
going
to
be
a
challenging
push
and
pull
between
the
these
two
elements.
But
the.
P
C
A
D
A
A
P
P
P
A
Hopefully
they've
paid
you
a
lot
to
get
to
this
point,
and
you
know
you're
gonna
have
to
go
back
and
rework
or
his
stuff,
so
I
understand
that
it's
a
it's
a
challenge,
but
that's
it's
kind
of
a
given
working
in
the
historic
district
in
many
cases,
and
especially
in
a
very
sensitive
site
like
this
as
you've
seen
already
in
order
to
the
steps
you've
had
to
go
to
to
even
get
to
this
point.
No.
This
is
not
an
easy
spot.
So
I
concede
that
to
you
challenging.
O
I
guess
I
just
had
one
last
question.
One
thing
that
would
be
helpful
is
understanding,
is
a
few
of
you
mentioned
you're,
okay
with
the
density,
but
you
kind
of
wanted
some
of
these
other
aspects
like
some
quirkiness,
more
ways
to
communicate.
Maybe
it
porches
is
some
way
that
that
can
happen,
but
I
don't
know
if
I
heard
that
from
all
of
you,
that
might
be
kind
of
helpful
understanding
kind
of
where
you
feel
about
that
density
question
you.
A
Density
I
can
answer
definitively
that
we
have
different
opinions.
You
know,
Paul
is
thinking
of
it
differently
than
I
am
and
well
you'll.
We're
gonna
find
that
in
other
aspects
of
the
project
and
that's
part
of
the
you
know
one
hand,
the
beauty
of
the
diverse
Commission
and
that
we've
got
all
sorts
of
different
viewpoints.
It
also
makes
it
more
challenging
so
I'm
afraid
I
can't
send
you
away
with
a
definitive
answer
on
the
density
and
setbacks
and
lot
widths.
A
M
A
So
there
you
clearly
have
that
we
don't
agree,
and
we
can't
send
you
off
with
any
assurance
that
one
way
or
the
other
is
going
to
work.
It
will
come
down
to
what
you
what
your
design
is
and
if,
if
it
is,
you
know
my
my
viewpoint
would
be
that
if
your
design
is
working
with
is
is
accomplishing
the
other
goals
that
have
been
laid
out
in
terms
of
quirkiness,
some
variation
in
forms
and
volumes
integrating
better
with
the
neighborhood.
C
It
seems
like
the
Commission
in
several
different
ways:
work
our
bets
benefit
when
you
look
at
the
standards.
The
overarching
goal
is
for
you
to
look
at
the
historic
context
and
really
take
that
in
and
what
I'm
hearing
from
the
Commission
is
that
that
consideration
of
the
historic
context,
ie
variation,
ie,
quirkiness
ie,
the
community
wasn't.
C
Much
into
consideration,
and
that
should
be
your
base
and
then
to
work
through
the
standards
so
starting
from
the
general
like
historic
context.
What's
on
the
Block
face,
what's
on
the
block
face
across
the
street
around
the
corner?
Yes,
there
are
large
apartment
buildings
up
one
block,
but
that's
a
different
historic
context
up
there.
So
looking
at
this
specific
historic
context
and
block
face
that
you're
that
you're
working
with
in
that
into
consideration
materials
massing
whatever's
on
that
block-based
and
then
working
from
general
to
specific
and
that's
what
those
standards
and
design
guidelines
do.
C
If
you
look
at
settlement
patterns,
you
look
at
that
neighborhood
character.
Then
you
go
into
the
site
which
you
did
consider,
consider
Bishop
Place
and
the
historic
Street
there
in
this
court
development.
So
that
was
considered
a
little
but
I
think
there
were
some
considerations
before
you
even
got
into
the
general
and
specific
that
the
Commission
is
is
citing
tonight.
If
that
makes
sense
and
staff
would
be
happy
to
sit
down
with
you
and
deconstruct
him
and
walk
you
through
that.