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Description
House Appropriations Subcommittee- April 11, 2022- House Hearing Room 1
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Thank
you.
Do
the
members
have
any
personal
orders
before
we
get
started,
seeing
none
before
we
go
out
of
session.
Today's
hearing
is
to
focus
and
to
get
gain
a
better
understanding
about
the
physical
impacts
associated
with
incarceration
costs
in
tennessee.
As
members
know,
we've
been
having
a
lot
of
discussion
over
the
last
several
years
about
what
it
costs
to
incarcerate
citizens
in
our
state.
We're
going
to
first
hear
from
a
group
called
recidivism
wanted
to
thank
them
for
coming
today.
A
Who
is
a
resource
for
our
department
of
corrections
as
it
relates
to
data
analysis,
and
then
we
will
hear
from
department
of
corrections
as
well,
followed
by
none
other
than
christa
lee
carson.
She
gives
us
an
update
from
a
fiscal
review
standpoint
regarding
how
we
calculate
fiscal
notes,
as
it
relates
to
incarceration
for
the
members.
A
All
the
supporting
documents,
including
the
presentations
by
the
applicable
entities
today,
are
located
on
the
dashboard,
and
so
you
can
access
those
there
if
you
can't
see
them
on
the
screen
and
so
we're
going
to
go
out
of
session
to
hear
first
from
recidivism.
I
know
we
have
evan
green
low
and
some
other
folks
with
you.
A
So
if
you
will
come
straight
to
wherever
you'd
like
at
the
at
the
table,
we're
gonna
let
recidoviz
go
first
and
then
it'll
be
department,
corrections
after
and
then
miss
carsoner
will
come
and
she
will
testify
and
then
we're
gonna
ask
you
guys
to
stay
over.
I
think
we
got
a
few
questions
we'd
like
to
ask
for
the
entire
group
after
the
questions
and
so
gentlemen,
if
you
will,
for
the
record,
introduce
yourselves
and
your
title
and
the
company
you're
with
and
you
can
go
ahead
and
get
started.
C
Yeah,
okay,
can
you
guys
hear
me?
Okay,
all
right.
Can
you
hear
me
all
right?
Wonderful,
thank
you
for
having
me,
mr
chairman.
My
name
is
evan
greenlow.
I'm
a
state
engagement
manager
with
a
non-profit
organization
called
recidivism
recidivism,
which
is
not
easy
to
spell,
is
a
combination
of
the
word
recidivism
and
the
word
visualization
to
help
better
understand
what
drives
recidivism.
What
may
reduce
recidivism
I've
brought
handful
of
slides
that
are
up
that
I
can
speak
to
today.
C
The
first
part
of
it
speaks
generally
about
recidivism
as
an
organization
who
we
are
what
we
do
and
then
the
second
part
speaks
more
specifically
to
our
partnership.
Here
in
tennessee
with
the
department
of
corrections.
Should
I
dive
into
it?
Excellent,
that's
what
I
just
said.
So
we've
covered
this
slide.
We're
making
good
progress,
so
recidivism
is
a
team
of
technologists.
C
We're
currently
working
in
eight
states,
including
the
state
of
tennessee,
you
can
see
those
here:
north
dakota,
missouri,
michigan,
idaho,
pennsylvania,
colorado,
maine
and
yourselves.
We
started
our
partnership
with
tennessee
formally
in
august
of
last
year,
so
we're
about
six
months
into
it.
I'll
speak
a
little
bit
more
about
that
and
bailey.
The
states
that
we
partner
with
are
the
states
that
have
the
strongest
interest
in
using
data
to
make
the
best
decisions.
That's
sort
of
how
this
crew
of
states
has
come
about.
C
C
So
I
think
the
right
way
to
imagine
the
data
analytics
platform
is
represented
by
the
little
dots
here.
So
the
criminal
justice
system
has
a
lot
of
inflows
and
outflows
that
get
very
complex
as
people
move
from
prison
to
parole
from
prison
to
probation
from
probation
parole,
either
to
liberty
or
back
into
the
prison
system.
And
so
what
our
software
engineers
are
doing
is
they're
sort
of
organizing
the
data
to
extend
the
notion
of
looking
at
data
at
a
point
in
time
and
to
stretch
it
out
over
an
individual's
experience.
C
So
this
is
an
example
individual
who
spent
six
years
on
probation.
They
were
in
four
different
probation
offices.
They
had
nine
different
supervising
officers
and
then,
at
the
end
of
that,
they
ended
up
spending
74
days
in
jail
so
rather
than
just
looking
to
see
where
they
are
at
some
point
in
time.
C
So
we
have
not
yet
built
a
formal
population
projection
model
in
tennessee
we'd
be
happy
to.
This
is
from
an
example
in
idaho,
where
we
have
and
what
you're
looking
at
here
is.
You
can
imagine
either
for
statewide
or
for
a
specific
facility.
You
could
take
a
look
at
historically
based
on
the
custody
level
that
people
were
in
the
number
of
infractions
that
they
had
had,
whether
or
not
they
had
previously
reoffended.
C
What
would
be
likely
to
be
true
in
the
future
based
on
all
of
those
movements,
and
there
could
be
additional
real
time,
specificity
and
insight
from
something
like
that.
Other
kinds
of
tools
we
build
are
sort
of
internal
key
performance
indicator
dashboards.
So
if
you
are
a
district
director
for
supervision
or
a
warden,
you
may
want
to
have
a
key
set
of
metrics
you're
trying
to
achieve
and
be
able
to
know
well
which
individuals,
which
correctional
officers
or
probation
or
parole
officers
are
achieving
the
target
outcomes
with
what
level
of
frequency.
C
Is
we
make
it
easier
for
the
state
to
ask
questions
of
its
own
data,
to
guide
its
staff
towards
best
practices
and
also,
I
think,
importantly,
to
be
recognized
for
your
incredible
progress.
We've
enjoyed
seeing
the
progress
tennessee
has
been,
making
policy
makers
have
been
making
administrators
have
been
making
and
want
to
be
able
to
uplift
the
story
when
things
go
well
as
well.
C
So
that's
recidivism
generally,
some
of
the
work
we've
done
in
other
states
and
how
we
work
as
an
organization
specifically
here
in
tennessee,
as
I
mentioned
earlier,
the
contract
began
august
15th.
It
runs
for
three
years
so
we're
six
months
into
a
three-year
contract
and
the
scope
of
our
contract
was
focused
on
three
main
areas:
to
diagnose
and
surface
potential
issues,
to
monitor
the
success
of
any
ongoing
initiatives
and
to
guide
planning
and
policy
for
positive
outcomes.
C
So
the
distributions
that
you're
looking
at
here
are
a
representation
of
the
program
credits
and
the
behavior
credits
that
can
reduce
the
length
of
time
that
somebody
would
serve
incarcerated
in
a
facility
and
you'll
notice.
A
couple
different
spikes
here,
so
there's
a
very
large
yellow
spike
at
the
six
to
eight
day
range,
because
the
policy
suggests
that,
if
you
are
in
a
tdo-c
facility,
the
most
days
you
can
earn
off
per
month
is
six
to
eight,
whereas
in
jails
you
can
earn
up
to
a
total
of
30
days.
C
And
so
you
can
see
those
distributions.
And
later
we
can
sort
of
disentangle
questions
that
I
know
are
very
important
to
understand.
What
is
the
average
length
going
to
be
the
maximum
length
going
to
be
the
distribution
of
lengths,
and
we
can
provide
insights
that
suggest
things
like
this,
so
on
average
credits
account
for
a
22
reduction
in
total
sentence
length
in
tennessee,
and
you
can
see
this
distribution
here
of
well.
What
share
of
the
time
is
it
less
than
10
or
more
than
40
percent
of
the
length
of
a
sentence
that
is
reduced?
C
One
final
note
that
I'll
share
is
importantly.
This
is
not
causal.
This
is
not
to
say.
This
is
because
a
therefore
b,
this
is
correlational,
but
I
think
still
also
interesting.
We
took
a
look
at
individuals
within
tennessee
department,
of
corrections,
facilities
and
said,
based
on
the
number
of
credits
they
could
earn.
C
Do
the
people
who
most
of
the
credits
they
could
fare
any
differently
in
terms
of
future
crime
than
those
who
don't
earn,
the
credits
who
are
available
to
them?
And
so
what
you're
looking
at
here
is
that
people
who
earned
the
bottom
third
of
potentially
available
credits
ended
up
re-entering
the
system,
whether
probation
or
prison,
about
20
to
25
more
often
than
those
who
earned
all
of
their
credit,
so
that
six
percentage
point
gap
from
19
to
25..
C
A
Thank
you
for
your
testimony
today.
If
you
guys
don't
mind
you
just
hang
out
for
a
minute,
we'll
have
some
questions.
I've
already
got
a
list
started,
and
so
next
up
we
have
today
cfo
be
beau
irvin,
I
guess
in
lisa
parks.
I
understand
the
commissioner
couldn't
make
it
today
hope
they
get
to
feeling
better.
D
D
Yes,
and
and
commissioner
helton
does
apologize
for
her
not
being
here
today-
I
am
filling
in
for
her.
As
I
said,
my
name
is
kelly
young,
I'm,
the
inspector
general
for
the
tennessee
department
of
correction,
one
of
the
spheres
that
I
that
I'm
over
in
my
role,
is
contracts
and
contract
monitoring.
Hence
my
knowledge
of
our
relationship
with
recidivism.
As
mr
evan
greenlow
pointed
out,
we've
had
the
contract
in
place
for
about
six
months,
purpose
being
to
end
ingest,
digest
and
analyze
tdoc
data.
D
One
thing
that's
important
to
point
out
and
clarify
with
this
information.
That's
being
analyzed
is
this
is
all
public
information.
This
is
information.
That's
available
to
anybody
who
wants
it,
and
it's
very,
the
usefulness
of
pursuit
of
is,
is
taking
this
humongous
fountain
of
knowledge
and
and
data,
and
bringing
it
all
together
to
tell
us
what
it
means.
It's
sitting
here,
it's
sitting
here,
it's
helpful
to
for
somebody
with
expertise
in
corrections,
data
to
bring
it
together.
D
D
B
A
B
B
We
do
have
been
using
the
same
method
for
calculating
our
fiscal
notes
over
the
past
several
years,
and
we
just
update
the
we
do
a
10-year
average
on
the
admissions
we
do
update
the
most
recent
year's
data
on
the
front
end,
and
then
we
drop
off
the
longest
or
the
which
I
say
the
one
that's
furthest
out.
So
we
maintain
a
10-year
average
every
year
and
what
that
allows
us
to
do
is
be
consistent
with
the
prior
year.
A
E
Thank
you,
chairman
williams,
crystal
lee,
carson
executive
director
of
the
fiscal
review
committee.
Thank
you
for
having
me
today.
I
know
that
there
have
been
several
questions
and
concerns
both
in
the
legislature
and
in
the
media
regarding
the
difference,
estimates
on
the
truth
and
sentencing
house
bill
2656
and
senate
bill
2248.
E
So,
first
I'm
going
to
kind
of
lay
out
the
variables
that
went
into
our
analysis,
the
variables
that
went
into
the
department
of
corrections,
analysis
and
also
how
we
got
hopefully
how
we
so
with
all
incarceration
bills,
not
just
the
truth
and
sentencing
bill.
We
look
at
average
admissions
average
sentence
and
average
time
served,
and
this
is
data
that
we
receive
from
the
department,
and
it
includes
data
over
the
previous
10-year
period,
population
growth
rate
because
statutorily
we're
required
to
do
the
highest
cost
in
current
dollars
over
the
next
10
fiscal
years.
E
So
population
data
growth
data
helps
us
do
that,
and
that's
something
that
we
on
a
fiscal
review
staff
determine
each
year
recidivism
discount
factor,
and
this
is
an
annual
calculation
that
the
department
does
for
us
as
to
what
they
are
experiencing
in
that
area
and
then
cost
per
day.
Previously
to
this
year,
we
were
using
a
weighted
cost
per
day
based
on
the
department's
budget.
E
So
what
is
in
the
department
of
corrections
estimate
it's
the
exact
same
information,
so
this
is
where
I
think
everything
gets
confusing,
because
we're
coming
up
with
different
numbers.
So
here
are
some
of
the
big
differences
in
our
analysis
versus
the
department
of
corrections
on
the
emission
data.
So
this
all
comes
from
the
department.
E
E
Time
sentence
and
time
served
again.
It
appeared
from
what
the
department
provided
us
that
they
were
looking
at
the
specifics
for
those
groups,
but
sometimes
they
were
also
using
felony
class
data,
so
the
average
for
an
e
felony
or
the
average
time
served
or
sentence
for
a
felony.
Something
like
that
where
we
were
looking
at
what
they
had
provided
for
those
individual
offenses
admissions.
E
E
So
we
are
not
assuming
new
admissions
but
we're
extending
the
time
frame
in
which
someone
admitted
we'll
serve.
So
we
looked
at
what
the
individual
is
serving
now
and
what
the
extension
will
be
and
tried
to
start
the
impact
at
the
time
that
the
extension
would
occur
and
then
for
the
10
year
period
statute
requires
all
of
the
recurring
amounts
to
be
the
highest
of
the
next
10
fiscal
years.
So
we
limited
our
estimate
to
include
only
costs
in
those
10
fiscal
years.
E
E
One
of
the
things,
though,
that
I
want
to
point
out
with
incarceration
costs,
and
I
think
this
gets
confusing
when
we
talk
about
the
fiscal
note
of
an
incarceration
bill
so
statutorily,
we
are
required
to
account
for
the
highest
cost
in
the
next
10
years,
and
if
that
bill
is
passed,
then
the
appropriation
is
a
recurring
amount.
Basically,
what
the
bill
is
going
to
cost.
E
Well,
our
estimate
is
lower
than
the
department
of
corrections.
I
do
feel
confident
in
it,
because
we
know
that
we
are
over
appropriating
and
covering
whatever
cost
might
be
there
in
case
we
are
slightly
less
or
on
the
lower
end
of
the
estimate
of
what
actually
occurs
also
right
now.
This
is
all
based
on
the
bill
as
originally
proposed.
There
is
an
amendment,
that's
traveling
with
the
bill
and,
as
it
sits
in
finance,
so
just
to
touch
on
this,
and
this
is
our
estimate.
E
A
A
I
think
there
is
a
already
I've
found
a
little
bit
of
variance
between
those,
but
before
we
go
to
chairlady
hazelwood,
I
just
thought
I
would
clarify
something
so
when
we're
calculating
the
fiscal
note,
ms
carson,
when
we're
calculating
the
fiscal
note,
you're,
seeing
it
as
the
net
change
between
what
originally
was
in
the
budget
and
what
and
they
may
be
accounting
for
it
entirely
new
and
not
the
difference.
Is
that
a
fair
statement
or
am
I
lost.
A
E
But
it
it
appeared
in
the
their
submission
of
their
analysis
that
there
were
several
cause
starting
in
year,
one
which,
in
our
opinion,
that
would
not
occur
our
opinion.
Several
of
them
would
start.
I
think
our
analysis
showed
two
years
out
when
they
would
actually
start
so
that,
when
you're
doing
a
highest
of
a
ten-year
period,
starting
sooner
as
to
that
cumulative
value
where
it
looks
higher
than
where
our
analysis
is.
A
F
Thank
you,
mr
chairman
and
good
afternoon.
Thank
you
all
for
coming
and
helping
to
enlighten
us
and
I'm
just
going
to
start
with
the
questions
for
mr
greenlaw,
I'm
not
familiar
with
recidivists.
So
if
you
could
just
tell
me
a
little
bit
about
how
your
company
came
to
be
where
you're
located
that
sort
of
thing.
C
F
F
D
D
D
Ultimately,
the
vast
majority
of
the
contract
was
funded
through
jag
grant
funds
through
ocjp,
so
a
federal
grant
is
funding
four
hundred
thousand
dollars
of
the
four
hundred
fifty
thousand
dollars
in
conversations
with
recidivis,
once
we
kind
of
knew
the
scope
of
what
was
happening
myself,
I
began
conversations
with
central
procurement
office
as
well
as
the
comptroller's
office,
as
well
as
sts,
knowing
the
scope
that
they
were
going
to
be
doing.
I
wanted
to
speak
to
them
about
the
logistics
of.
D
What's,
what's
going
to
be
the
correct
path
to
go
with
regard
to
recidivism
part
of
what
we
considered
was
the
services
provided
background
of
what,
if
any,
competition
is
out
there?
What
we
discovered
was-
and
it
was
specifically
listed
in
the
justification
for
this
contract-
was
that
obviously
there
are
companies
that
do
data
analysis.
However,
recidivism
specializes
in
the
analysis,
integration
and
aggregation
of
corrections
related
data.
D
Also,
we
considered
that
in
one
of
the
states
that
they're
contracting
with
which
is
michigan
michigan,
actually
ran
an
rfp
for
these
services
and
recidivism
was
the
only
bidder
for
those
services
taking
all
of
that
into
account.
We
entered
into
a
sole
source
contract
with
recidivis,
with
the
justification
that
I
just
mentioned
here,
which
was
ultimately
approved
by
cpo
cot
and
the
fiscal
review
committee.
F
So
if
I'm
understanding
correctly
in
your
opinion,
there
was
no
one
else
that
could
do
this
particular
work,
and
that
was
your
justification
for
yet
another
sole
source
contract,
which
I
I
think
you
all
in
the
department.
Recives
might
not
be
aware
of
this,
but
the
legislature
has
some
issues
with
the
number
of
sole
source
contracts
that
are
out
there.
So
again,
I
I
heard
your
explanation,
but
there
are
other
companies
I
did
you
say
there
are
other
companies
who
do
data
analysis,
just
not
specifically
in
this
field
targeted
in
this
area.
D
During
the
series
of
conversations-
and
it's
been
a
while-
so
forgive
me
if
I
get
the
state
wrong,
but
I
believe
it
was
colorado
that
they
had
done
work,
which
we
looked
at
the
quality
of
the
work
done
there.
They
had
also
done
work
in
pennsylvania
and
had
a
public-facing
dashboard
in
pennsylvania
with
the
digestion
and
aggregation
of
their
correction
data.
F
A
Ma'am
just
follow
up
on
the
question
before
I
go
to
the
next
one
as
it
related
to
recidivism.
I
I
did
do
some
research
as
to
what
the
chair,
lady,
was
saying
about
experience
in
this
space.
I
recognize
that
we
in
a
lot
of
cases,
in
particular
in
data
and
information
systems,
we're
constantly
finding
folks
that
that
are
the
specialists
in
their
field.
A
C
A
I
recognize
the
need
for
being
able
to
keep
that
information
private
as
it
relates
to
each
individual.
But
in
your
presentation
you
did
show
an
individual's
record
as
it
related
to
the
last
six
years
and
the
time
in
which
they
were
incarcerated.
What
makes
that
okay
and
not
what
you're
proposing
in
other
states?
Okay,
what
that
was
an
example,
so
that
wasn't
a
real
that
wasn't
a
real
case
scenario
that
you're
providing
okay.
G
One
of
the
things
was
tell
me
again.
This
may
be
for
you
general
young,
exactly
so
what
were
your
qualifications?
What
exactly,
I
guess,
helped
me
understand
what
you
were
looking
for
and
again
I
don't
mean
to
be
a
dead
horse
here.
But
what
tell
me
again,
what
were
the
qualifications
of
recidivism
again
sure.
D
So
what
we
as
tdoc
are
interested
in
a
contract
such
as
this
is
what
they
specialize,
which
is
the
aggregation
analysis
of
data,
but
also
importantly,
what
does
that
data
mean?
So
where
what
direction
can
that
point
us
in
what
sort
of
policies
does
it
affect?
What
different
ways
can
we
think
of
to
be
creative
with
regard
to
addressing
issues
that
may
be
brought
up
by
the
aggregation
of
this
data,
and
so
one
of
the
main
benefits,
as
I've
already
stated,
was
their
specialization
with
corrections,
data
which
is
specialized
data
understanding?
D
What
that
data
is
telling
you
and
then
figuring
out
tdoc
as
guilty
as
anybody
of
acronyms
and
abbreviations,
and
things
like
that
to
speak
our
language
so
having
a
heads
up
and
a
foot
up
on
understanding
that
language,
but
also
with
recidivism
doing
this
same
work
in
other
states.
Even
the
work
they're
doing
in
other
states
helps
to
also
educate
us
on
trends.
D
So
maybe
our
our
data
in
a
silo
in
tennessee
tells
us
one
thing,
but
that
same
data
that
maybe
or
trend
that
we're
seeing
in
another
state
they're
working
in
that
they
have
knowledge
of
helps
us
to
think
creatively
about
criminal
justice,
reform,
internal
policies
and
things
of
that
nature.
So
it
was
the
expertise
as
well
as
the
scope
of
the
work
they're
doing
nationwide.
G
Okay
and
mr
chairman,
I'm
going
to
bounce
back
and
forth
if
that's
okay,
I
have
a
question
now
just
going
to
come
back
to
you
now,
mr
greenlow.
So
as
as
you
look
at
the
data
and
you
look
at
tennessee,
so
what
what?
What
were?
What
are
your
goals
for
tennessee,
as
you
begin
to
look
at
at
tennessee?
What
what?
G
C
So
our
goal
is
to
improve
public
safety.
Reduce
time
reduce
crime
to
you
know,
support
the
well-being
of
the
citizens
of
any
state
that
we
serve
and
so
we're
looking,
whether
it's
for
individuals
who
are
on
supervision,
what
can
guide
them
to
have
successful
outcomes
so
they're,
not
you
know
reoffending
coming
back
into
the
system,
while
people
are
incarcerated.
What
is
the
programming
that
might
be
most
helpful
to
them
being
able
to
be
successful,
we're
trying
to
help
the
state
visualize
how
to
reduce
recidivism.
G
C
It's
a
great
question,
I
think
in
corrections,
the
structure
of
data
is
really
critical,
so
you
may
get
a
split
sentence.
You
may
have
a
dual
sentence.
You
may
have
multiple
charges
on
the
same
sentence
and
understanding
the
context
of
criminal
justice
data
requires
an
understanding
not
only
of
the
big
data
or
of
analytics
or
of
general
data
analytics
software.
C
It
requires
the
specific
intersection
of
understanding
the
flows
of
individuals
between
incarceration
supervision
and
liberty
and
the
you
know
hundreds
of
little
edge
cases
that
can
exist,
and
so
the
the
feeling
I
was
having
when
you
were
asking.
How
could
it
possibly
be
true
that
two
years
in
you
guys
were
the
expert
was
because
no
one
else
had
more
than
zero
years?
G
C
G
And
so
excuse
me,
the
original
contract
or
the
original
grants,
four
hundred
thousand
dollars,
and
if
you
look
at
the
contract
there
towards
the
end,
there's
a
another
twenty-five
000
that
will
be
appropriated
in
fiscal
year
24.
I
do
believe
what
what
I
believe
it
was
25.
Maybe
it
was
50.,
it
could
have
been
50
000.
yeah.
What?
What
will
that
be
used
for?
What
will
the
additional
50
000
dollars
be
utilized.
C
Yeah,
so
recidivism
has
a
wide
range
of
costs.
Quality
data,
scientists
and
software
engineers
have
high
salaries,
and
you
know,
offices,
and
even
just
the
cost
of
hosting
the
data
is
quite
a
bit.
We
actually
raised
quite
a
bit
from
philanthropist
to
be
able
to
subsidize
the
cost
for
the
state
because
we're
a
non-profit,
and
so
both
the
initial
400
000
and
the
remaining
50
000
all
go
basically
to
either
the
data
hosting
and
data
processing
costs
or
to
the
salaries
of
the
individuals
performing
the
work
for
the
state.
F
C
F
C
Department
of
corrections
has
its
own
internal
policies.
What
we
find
is
that,
when
tools
are
built,
they're
often
built
for
a
specific
purpose,
so
there
might
be
some
information
that
sts
is
storing
in
a
facilities
oriented
database.
There
might
be
some
information
that's
stored
in
a
parole,
oriented
database.
C
There
may
be
a
number
of
distributed
applications
that
are
hosting
data,
and
what
we
hear
is
that
it's
incredible
drain
on
the
parole
and
probation
officer's
time
to
be
checking
all
of
these
different
systems
and
observing,
and
so
a
lot
of
the
work
recedivist
is
doing-
is
pulling
together
the
information
in
these
disparate
systems
and
surfacing
the
most
relevant
individual
pieces
of
the
tdoc's
policies
to
guide
the
decision
making
in
line
with
best
practice.
So
we're
not
inventing
new
protocols
for
people
to
follow
we're,
making
it
easier
for
them
to
follow
what
already
exists.
C
I
think
the
internal
department
policies
just
specify
so
like
best
practice,
might
be
something
like
if
you
are
on
medium
supervision.
You
should
have
two
home
visits
and
a
virtual
visit
within
this
period
of
time,
and
because
there
are
a
half
dozen
different
types
of
levels
of
supervision
you
might
be
on
and
a
half
dozen
different
types
of
visits
you
might
make
piecing
together
how
those
should
be
paired
and
doing
that
with
100
compliance
can
be
both
challenging
and
time-consuming,
and
so
the
tool
is
not
saying.
This
is
what
you
should
do.
C
A
C
Yeah,
like
yeah,
I
was
just
gonna
say
we
do.
We
had
philanthropists
who
basically
were
able
to
say.
We
would
like
to
see
that
the
state
of
tennessee
is
interested
in
this.
We
believe
that
if
the
state
of
tennessee
is
invested,
that
they'll,
you
know,
apply
the
good
work
and
if
we
see
that
they
can
do
that,
we
can
cover
the
majority
of
the
costs
in
the
latter
years,
and
so
that
was
able
to
reduce
the
cost
for
those
years.
A
Thank
you.
I
guess
one
of
the
things
that
we
have
a
little
bit
of
concern
here
in
the
three
starred
three
grand
divisions
of
the
state
of
tennessee
is
who
influences
the
decision
makers
or
the
thought
the
thinking
in
the
state.
I
I
guess
a
little
bit
of
concern
to
think
that
philanthropists
from
the
state
of
california
might
be
using
tennessee
as
an
opportunity
to
invest
their
dollars.
C
Recidivism
can
sort
of
only
exist
if
we're
incredibly
non-partisan.
If
we
want
to
work
in
different
states
and
we're
biased
toward
one,
that's
not
going
to
work
very
well,
our
philanthropists
span,
the
political
spectrum,
as
well
as
all
of
the
states
and
the
states
we
work
in
are
a
pretty
good
balance.
I
think,
principally
the
question:
can
that
be
an
issue
is
100.
Yes,
I
think
we
try
and
take
great
care
to
balance
that,
because
that's
the
only
way
our
work
will
be
received.
Law.
A
Well,
and-
and
I
appreciate
the
work
you're
doing-
I
was
able
to
read
up-
I
don't
think
anybody,
I
don't
think
anybody's
based
upon
what
I've
read
is
getting
paid
handsomely
to
do
this.
I
I
read
many
articles
about
california
and
how
many,
like
your
your
original
partners
and
from
google
left
their
high
paying
jobs
to
to
come,
make
very
little,
which
we
appreciate
that.
A
Could
you
differentiate
from
me
the
difference
between,
or
is
there
any
connection
between,
recidivism,
california
and
recidivism,
where
this
contract
was
as
it
relates
to
provo
utah?
Is
there
any?
Is
it
just,
coincidentally,
have
the
same
name
or
it
seems
to
be
around
since
2015
is
one
a
non-profit
and
one
a
corporation?
Do
you
know
what
the
difference
between
the
two
are?
I
wish.
C
C
C
H
C
Sure
it
would
be
available
to
every
person
who
is
in
prison
and
available
to
every
person
being
released
from
prison.
So
even
if
you
were
never
leaving
if
there
were
programming
opportunities
that
would
be
available
to
you,
recidivism
is
only
35
people,
so
we
were,
of
course
not
interacting
with
the
20
something
thousand
people,
but
through
our
partnership
with
the
leadership
team
and
the
way
those
tools
can
be
used
by
their
wardens
and
their
unit
leaders.
They
will
all
have
access
to
these
insights
to
be
able
to
make
those
improvements.
H
H
D
Yes,
sir,
thank
you
so
obviously,
as
stated
before
we're
at
the
what
I
would
call
the
infancy
of
this
contract.
So
obviously
these
these
things
are
being
developed.
They're.
The
analysis
of
data
is
still
ongoing.
The
development
of
these
tools
being
discussed
is
still
ongoing.
So
at
this
exact
moment
we
don't
have
one
to
give
at
this
particular
moment.
That
being
said,
the
idea
always
has
been
that,
once
we
have
those
dashboards
and
those
tools
that
that
information,
like
I
said
earlier-
that's
public
general
for
the
most
part
public
information.
D
H
Last
question,
mr
chairman
representative,
I
guess
then
I
I
asked
it
because
I
know
that
there
are
a
lot
of
organizations
now
who
look
forward
to
trying
to
help
inmates
once
they
are
dismissed
from
from
prison.
Would
this
I
guess
this
could
take
the
place
of
that,
so
it
wouldn't
be
no
need
of
church
organizations.
H
C
If
I
may,
I
think
my
the
way
I
would
describe
what
recidivism
does
is
not
that
we
replace
service
providers.
It's
more
that
we
are
helping
to
match
service
providers
to
make
sure
that
the
right
people
are
getting
the
right
services
based
on
their
needs,
and
so
it
would
make
the
work
that
all
of
those
organizations
are
doing
more
effective
rather
than
removing
the
need
for
it.
H
C
H
So
that
was
one
of
my
questions
that
you've
actually
answered
that
what
are
the
long-term
goals,
short-term
goals-
and
you
mentioned
reduced
crime
recidivism.
So
how
successful
coming
up
on
the
three-year
contract?
Would
you
say
you
all
were
in
reducing
recidivism,
reducing
crime,
et
cetera,
et
cetera.
C
I
think
we're
we
have
identified
and
observed
cohorts
of
individuals
in
both
idaho
and
north
dakota,
where
perhaps
because
of
specific
program
enrollment
or
program
referral,
we've
noticed
those
cohorts
have
lower
recidivism
rates.
I
wouldn't
say
that
in
the
three
years
since
we
were
born,
we've
eliminated
recidivism
in
either
of
those
states,
but
we
do
have
some
case
studies
of
groups
of
individuals
that
have
fared
better
in
part
because
of
the
services
we
provide.
Okay,.
D
A
Thank
you.
Thank
you,
representative,
just
a
follow-up
earlier,
of
course,
I
have
to
do
a
little
research
before
I
get
here,
but
I
did
notice
in
the
tennessee
tab
that
on
the
dashboard
for
tennessee
tab,
it
says
it's
under
construction
or
or
there's
no
data
there.
I
guess
the
question
is:
is
we're
six
months
in
about
400
000
investment
through
this
jag
fund?
I
guess
the
question
is:
is
how
long
typically
does
it
take
for
you
to
be
able
to?
A
You
know,
put
something
on
the
the
screen
or
show
us
an
update
on
where
we
are.
I
understand
from
chair
lady
hazelwood's
questions
that
you're
going
to
knoxville,
memphis
and
here
in
nashville.
So
what
can
we
expect
to
actually
see
some
results
for
the
investment
we've
made
over
the
last
six
months?.
C
For
sure
I'll
segment
out
into
a
couple
places
one
is
you
know
there
are
things
we
could
share
now
like
work
has
been
done
and
work
has
been
completed
and
if
there
were
specific
requests,
that's
something
that
we
could
provide.
The
second
is
that
the
beginning
is
necessarily
the
slowest
period
of
time.
So
the
first
thing
you
have
to
do
is
receive
all
of
the
data
from
the
state.
C
Then
you
sort
of
have
to
map
all
of
that
data
to
what
we
call
a
universal
schema
to
understand
data,
not
just
at
a
point
in
time,
but
for
individuals
over
time,
and
then
you
can
build
out
the
tools,
and
so
this
week
I
was
actually
somewhat
fortunate
timing
that
the
hearing
was
today.
We
were
planning
on
rolling
out
a
statewide
training
with
the
first
of
those
tools
having
brought
in
the
data,
and
so
you
know
working
closely
with
the
community
supervision
team.
A
Thank
you.
I
had
an
opportunity
to
review
and
look
also
at
this
report
that
recedivist
put
out
yes,
so
is
this
the
kind
of
thing
that
you
would
normally
do
or
provide,
because
of
your
contractual
relationship
with
department
of
corrections?
Is
this
something
that
recedive
is
and
it's
you
know
not
handsomely
paid
folks
normally
do?
Who
who
and
then
finally,
who,
if,
if
you're
not
doing
this
independent
department
of
corrections,
is
department
of
corrections
providing
you
the
data
for
you
to
be
able
to
do
a
presentation
like
this.
C
So
I
would
say
yes,
a
presentation
like
that
falls
into
some
of
the
goals
from
the
contract.
I
think
one
of
them
was
to
guide
policy
and
planning,
and
I
just
want
to
make
clear
you
know
we
have
been
working
very
closely
with
the
department
of
corrections,
which
is
a
part
of
the
state
of
tennessee.
We
also
work
for
you
and
so
to
the
extent
that
you're
interested
in
insights
about
you
know,
sentence
length
and
sentence,
distribution
and
recidivism
rates.
C
You
know
those
are
things
that
we
are
capable
of
providing
a
lot
of.
What
we
do
is
also
trying
to
bring
clarity
through
visualization
of
information.
So
perhaps
the
department
would
already
have
information
that
it
established
and
we
would
basically
just
bring
our
designers
to
make
that
easier
to
interpret,
and
so
some
of
the
elements
of
the
analysis
in
that
report
it
was
work
that
our
analysts
did,
and
some
of
that
was
just
sort
of
offering
insights
into
work.
The
department
had
already
done
under
their
own
methodologies.
A
So
part
of
it
part
of
it
is
information
that
corrections
sent
to
you.
So
you
could
extrapolate
the
data
absolutely
I
I
get
that
on
on
page
13
or
slide
13
of
your
presentation.
You
talked
about
the
the
variance
between
refinement
and
rates
for
the
three
categories
based
upon
somebody's
working
for
credit
at
a
time
the
variance
of
those
six
percent.
C
Two
things
are
true
in
there
one
is,
as
you
vary,
the
offense
the
range
the
length
all
of
those
things.
There
are,
of
course,
variations
in
what
that
looks
like
somewhat,
notably
the
principle
of
the
group,
with
the
fewest
credits
being
the
highest
level
of
recidivism
and
the
middle
being
the
middle
and
the
most
credit
earning
being.
The
bottom
remains
true
across
those
variations.
H
A
A
C
A
C
A
Okay,
the
well,
the
the
point
is.
The
question
is:
is
that
if
someone
commits
a
crime
to
me,
it
seems
pretty
simple,
it's
either
a
yes
or
no
answer.
Yes,
there
are
certain
offenses
that
that
and
and
an
aggravated
assault
on
a
child
I
mean
do
you?
Do
you
feel
like
that
that
crime
there
are
crimes
that
are
currently
illegal
in
the
state
of
tennessee,
that
should
people
should
serve
100
of
that
sentence.
C
The
reason
I'll
offer
one
more
time
that
it
may
be
more
complicated
than
that
is.
Let's
imagine
that
somebody
committed
a
horrible
crime
against
a
child,
and,
let's
imagine
it
was
true
that
if
they
didn't
have
access
to
supervision
or
if
they
didn't
have
the
ability
to
earn
credits,
they
might
be
likely
to
commit
another
horrible
crime
against
another
child.
We
would
not
want
to
wade
into
saying
what
is
the
benefit
to
the
family
of
the
first
victim,
in
contrast
with
the
risk
to
the
next
future
victim.
E
A
Yeah
and
it's
one
of
those
interesting
things
in
tennessee,
we
we
want
to
extend
grace
because
we
have
been
there
but
and
some
certain
instances.
We
are
certain
crimes.
I
think
that
people
should
do
the
full
amount,
and
so,
if
you're,
helping
us
extrapolate
data
and
providing
tools
for
department
of
corrections,
I
think
it's
interesting
that
we
should
do
that.
Finally,
ms
carsner
commented
on
this
previously
one
of
the
questions
as
it
relates
to
your
report
and
then
corrections
fiscal
note.
A
I
guess
the
question
is:
can
you
can
you
tell
me
how
did
how
did
you
get
to
the
total
number
that
you
came
up
with
your
report
and
then
for
corrections?
Could
you
tell
me
how
you
did?
I
think
ms
carsner
was
able
to
give
us
a
breakdown
kind
of
how
she
came
up
with
it
and
a
comparativeness
a
comparative
analysis
of
those
two.
Do
you
agree
with
her
analysis
of
what
the
perception
or
the
perceived
differences
are?
Could
you
tell
us
about
that?
A
B
We'll
be
glad
to
do
that,
we
do
acknowledge.
There
was
some
difference.
You
know
between
what
we
presented
as
our
fix
fiscal
note,
calculation
and
versus
what
fiscal
review
uses
and
that's
pretty
normal
in
the
process.
There's
and
we
never
agree
100,
but
what
we
can
do
is
like
for
the
one
example
in
recidivism
reports,
I'll
I'll.
Let
our
subject
matter
expert
our
director
fiscal
and
budget.
Ms
lisa
parks
go
through
that
particular
example
on
how
we
calculated
that,
if
you'd
like.
I
Okay,
can
you
hear
me
okay?
I
think
what
the
initial
issue
is
that
the
data
set
initially
in
april,
when
we
were
asked
for
a
legislative
request
for
some
data,
and
we
provided
that,
and
then
we
also
provided
an
update
to
that
data
like
in
october
and
november,
and
it
appears
because
we
actually
sat
down
and
went
through
and
did
the
fiscal
reviews,
calculation
and
tdoc's
calculation
that
that
information
is
what
was
used
for
this
fiscal
note,
specifically
all
the
fiscal
notes
we
use
a
consistent
data
set,
that's
been
used
since
2009.
I
There
was
a
mention
about
a
total
dollar
amount
and
those
unspent
funds
will
revert
yearly,
so
we
may
get
them
in
the
first
year,
but
they're
gone.
We
don't
have
any
carry
forward
authority
unless
there's
legislation.
You
know
that's
passed
to
give
us
that
authority.
So
that's
gone.
There
won't
be
an
aggregate
total
for
any
of
those,
let's
see,
and
also
all
of
our
data.
It's
based
on
primary
offense,
unique
offender.
So
something
was
mentioned
about
the
way
that
data
is,
but
it
is
specific.
I
Like
a
cfo
irvin
had
mentioned,
we
take
the
father
shearer
out.
We
drop
it
off
and
we'll
use
the
most
recent
data
for
that.
So
I'm
not
really
sure
on
that
comment
on
how
the
data
is
derived
because
it
is
all
from
sts
within
thomas
within
our
system,
so
the
average
emissions
on
the
aggravated
burglary.
We
started
with
1184
admissions,
which
that
was
the
10-year
average
and
fiscal
review
started
with
708..
I
We
use
the
recidivism
discount
year
two,
because
the
directions
that
we
were
given
from
the
2009
memo
says
that
you
will
year
use
year,
two
recidivism
discount
for
anything
over
two
years
and
also
they
had
used
year
one,
and
so
then
that
gets
it
down
to
the
736,
which
is
in
recidivism
their
handout
that
they
gave
to
everybody,
and
then
I
think
fiscal
review.
Well,
I
know
fiscal
reviews
was
at
478,
so
we
had
736
versus
478..
I
I
F
I
do
have
a
follow-up
and
I
apologize-
I
probably
just
wasn't
listening
well,
but
I'm
still
not
clear
the
report
mines.
I
don't
have
a
nice
color
copy,
like
our
chairman,
but
the
report
truth
in
sentencing
public
safety
implications
of
credit
earning,
I'm
still
not
clear
on
who
requested
this
and
who
generated
it
so
can
so
how
it
came
to
be
at
this
particular
time.
C
One
of
the
ways
recidivism
can
help
a
department
is
to
better
understand
either
what
the
impacts
of
something
that
was
recently
passed
are
starting
to
be
and
for
something
that
might
be
passed
soon.
What
might
the
implications
be
so,
hopefully
that
will
support
the
state
and
making
decisions
that
are
good
for
outcomes.
C
F
And
then
one
follow-up
question:
I
promise
that
I'll
quit
on
the
dashboard.
I
heard
what
you
said
about
there
being
personally
identifiable
information,
and
so
you
have
to
be
careful
is
what's
on
the
public
dashboard.
But
I
had
an
opportunity
to
look
over
the
shoulder
here
and
look
at
the
pennsylvania
piece
and
it's
basically
like
three
or
four
charts.
F
Is
there
more
to
the
dashboard
that
the
department
has
access
to,
and
that's
only
the
public
piece
and
when,
as
a
legislative
body,
could
we
get
a
look
at
what
that?
What
that
would
look
like
again
not
interested
in
seeing
personal
information?
But
I
would
like
to
see
the
tool
that
doesn't
tell
me
anything
so
I'd
like
to
see
the
real
tool
that
is
being
developed.
F
A
Thank
you.
I
had
a
quick
question
too,
and
I
don't
know
if
it's
centered
around
this
or
not,
but
I
didn't
know
if
the
department
could
share
with
me.
Last
year
we
hired
or
your
department
hired
deloitte
for
a
million
dollars
to
to
to
do
a
a
contract
for
them
with
them,
as
it
relates
to
your
department.
Do
you
know
what
the
purpose
of
that
contract
was
for
what
the
purpose
they
were
trying
to
deliver
information
to
the
department
is:
are
you
you
guys
aware
of
that.
D
A
The
reason
why
I
asked
is,
I
noticed
in
this
year's
budget.
We
deloitte
had
a
million
dollar
contract
with
corrections
last
year,
they've
requested
or
there's
an
appropriation
for
another
and
I'm
the
appropriations
guy,
so
there's
an
appropriation
for
another
1.5
million
dollars
with
deloitte
for
corrections
this
year,
and
I
just
wondered.
A
Obviously
we
have
a
discussion
today
around
four
hundred
thousand
dollars
or
450
over
three
just
didn't
know.
Do
we
do
we
know
I'm
not
a
soothsayer,
but
based
upon
your
facial
expressions,
I
would
say
you
need
to
get
back
with
me
on
what
this
one
million
dollars
and
1.5
million
is
2.5
over
two
years
would
be
for,
if
you
guys
could
do
that.
That
would
be
fantastic.
J
I
was
just
going
to
mention
dr
deming.
If
you
know
dr
demi
was
had
a
quote
that
said
in
god,
we
trust
all
others
bring
data
and
dr
deming
is,
you
know,
turned
around
the
japanese
economy.
I
just
wanted
you
with
with
your
data
collection.
Looking
forward.
You
know
we
incarcerate
more
people
than
this
country,
incarcerates
more
people
in
any
other
country
on
the
face
of
the
earth.
To
me,
that's
strange,
that's
something
that
somebody
needs
to
look
at
the
data.
Why
is
that?
How
does
that
exist?
J
But
I
want
you
to
look
at
two
things
in
my
county.
Just
go.
Look
at
pcc,
rutherford
county.
My
county
got
charged
with
extortion.
They
settled
a
14
million
lawsuit.
This
existed
for
years.
I
don't
know
how
it
existed.
Where
was
everybody
at?
Where
were
the
leaders?
Where
was
the
data?
I
mean
these
were
people
that
the
poorest
of
the
poor,
just
in
a
racket.
It
just
astounds
me
that
this
exists
in
our
country
in
my
community
and
nobody
done
anything.
Also,
my
former
police
chief.
J
I
had
the
opportunity
to
preach
her
funeral
two
years
ago.
She
was
a
mentor
of
mine,
sally
walls.
She
passed.
She
was
first
female
chief
in
the
state
tennessee
and
she
was
calling
me
a
few
years
ago,
and
she
said
you
know
she
said
my
my
grandson.
He
was
in
jail
over
drugs
incarcerated.
He
said
he
can't
get
out
of
prison
because
he
hadn't
finished
a
class
and
they
have
no
instructor
to
teach
a
class
like
I'm
thinking,
she's
got
something
going
on
that
was
true.
J
I
went
met
with
the
department,
they
had
no
instructor
and
I'm
thinking
how
many
people
are
bottlenecked
there.
How
come?
No
one
studies,
this
and
deming
would
talk
about
studying
your
cost.
Abraham
lincoln
talk
about
studying
your
cost,
so
I
just
wanted
you
as
you're
driving
to
memphis
and
knoxville.
Just
pull
up
pcc.
That
story
made
it
nationwide.
J
A
Thank
you.
I
have
one
more
question
and
I
think
we're
done.
I
don't
have
anyone
else
on
my
list
who-
and
I
guess
this
is
for
you,
general-
the
who,
in
the
department,
released
the
the
reports
as
it
relates
to
this
fiscal
note
or
this
bill
who
released
this
report
to
ride
on
crime
and
the
afp
national
crime
group.
Who
dude
is
that
something
you
your
department
normally
releases
to
third-party
groups,
or
was
that
done
through
recidivism
or
did
they
just
who
how's
that
information
released.
D
A
Okay,
okay,
I
do
not
have
any
other
people
asking
questions.
We're
gonna
go
well.
We
won't
go
back
in
session
until
for
a
second,
but
I
want
to
thank
each
of
you
for
coming
and
your
testimony
today.
It's
a
very
important
process
as
it
relates
to
transparency,
not
just
in
in
transparency's
sake,
but
also
in
data.
So
thank
you
for
coming
today.
Do
the
members
have
any
further
questions,
not
we're
going
to
go
back
in
session,
so
we're
back
in
session.