Token Engineering Commons Parameters Working Group, 11 Dec 2020

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From YouTube: W3 Parameters WG: Impact Hours deep dive!

Description

Timecodes:
00:00 - This huge parameter its an ecuation!
00:40 - What percentage of tokens should go to impact hours?
17:40 - Impact hours is the team
18:28 - How impact hours are created?
22:05 - The principles for designing the cultural build tribute
24:20 - Parameters to consider and different graphs
31:50 - Legal 1M thoughts
35:09 - Santi explain his thoughts on the imputs we need
36:14 - Griff explains how parameters will be decided
40:30 - Sem give his thoughts on logarithms
43:20 - Round of what the fair minimum of each impact hour?
58:07 - Jake ends saying we are going to have another sesion on sunday!

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A

Every other parameters call we have like. Oh here's like these 10 parameters. This is one hour on one parameter, because it's more than a parameter, uh spoiler alert, it's actually a equation, and and there's one equation that we really need to think about- and I think some sema sees this and it's it's a challenge. In fact, we're not even implementing the impact hours correctly into our test. Hatch right, sam, this next rehearsal yeah. So because it's it's a little complicated and we really need feedback on it.

A

So, to start this off, I want to uh allow everyone to answer this first question. As an intro question, what percentage of tokens that are created in the tec should go to impact hours people so because this is the question that we're really answering with impact hours in this parameter?

A

What percentage of of the tokens that are created during the hatch should go to the people who put the money into the hatch and what percentage should go to the people who put the elbow grease into the hatch?

A

uh I'm not going to start it I'm going to pass it, I'm going to pass it to jake and uh I'll go last.

A

B

Percentage of the total- this is the percentage of the total right. How many tokens.

A

Are actually created of the hatch tokens yeah so like if, if people send in a million dollars right how much right of that creates tokens for people with impact hours and how much of that creates tokens for them?.

B

Here let me get my hat here. I got one here, there's one right in here hold on, I don't I really. I really. I don't know.

B

Can this, I don't even know if it should be a set percentage, but um I'm gonna say 15 percent.

A

When you're done pass it on to someone.

A

B

C

I think that 15 is a good one and the the thing that I see is that it it has not.

C

It must not be so much because if not people is not going to it's not going to be fair with people who is donating, but also it's important that the people who is putting impact hours they receive at least 10 days or something like that per hour.

C

So I I'm not sure yet and something.

D

I think it's a tricky question because I don't think we can go with one fixed variable. It's gonna be a bearable and I would say considering that I would say between 10 and 15, and it to me depends on the amount of of money that we are able to uh to raise during the hatching phase. It's uh it's it's too, too easy in a way to say and too risky to say just 10 15. It depends on a lot of parameters. So that's that's my my point. I'll pass it to libya.

E

Thanks auntie, I think I'm a bit confused of why, like the more percentage, the less uh it gets to contributors, maybe.

E

I don't know if I can answer without like clarifying this.

A

Well, well, we're not really talking about like what's been proposed, just like in your head, you know without thinking of what's already there, what percentage should people with impact hours get and what percentage of people without that put money in get.

E

um Yeah, I think something like uh 10 and 15 seems fair and I passed to tonga.

F

Yeah, I I don't understand very well. I don't.

A

Know I mean just off the top of your head: it's it's really just a a you know like how much the people who put in work to make this happen. What percentage should they get and the people who put in money to make this happen? What percentage should they get.

B

F

Yeah, I don't know.

F

Explanation because my internet was connecting me and disconnecting so I I didn't manage to to understand.

A

That's okay. I mean you, don't have to answer. You can also just pass yes.

F

Yes- and maybe I can tell in the future if I understand.

A

Okay, you want to take this song.

G

uh Yeah sure so I was trying to wrap my head around this and um I might as well. I think I can just I have it up right now. I'm just gonna show you so I in order for me to get any sort of intuition around things I usually have to like plot them and olivia. I was stuck on the same thing. It's like.

G

Why are we the it's actually, the more we raise the lower the percentage of this payout we get, and that didn't quite make sense to me at first, but when you model it it, it still looks good. I mean, because I don't know if you guys can see this. Probably my font is too small. Actually, let's see if I can zoom in.

H

Yeah, I wish it could be a little a little uh larger.

G

Okay, is this better.

E

We can also zoom in on yeah.

G

Okay, so let's, let's just focus here, so this is the hatchery. So this parameter here is just how many total hours we all contribute collectively. So that's what we can modulate and then we can have this sort of match reality. So I don't. I don't know if anyone's done this now or if anyone has a rough estimate at how many hours have been totally contributed so far, but let's just put it around five thousand total.

G

Because what that means is essentially the the pie is getting divided more because the cultural build in total is going to get divided across all these hours and each person is going to have some number of hours and they'll get paid out based on that number of hours, and so then the second thing we want to focus on is just this: uh the hatch rays, which is what we see here, uh increasing so it's up to um 10 to the eighth.

G

So a 100 million is the largest rays that we sort of project, and then we put them, we say: okay, well, minimum raise would be 250 000 x die. um So then we we see that the more the more we raise, the higher the hourly rate we get paid out.

G

So if we raise two hundred and fifty thousand dollars, then it's an hourly rate of ten dollars and that will equate to twenty percent of the total raise is going to go to the cultural build and that basically we need that higher percentage distribution, because we've raised less money, but we still want everyone to get paid out. But as we raise more money, we can actually decrease the size of the pie, that's going towards the cultural build and still have an increasing hourly rate.

G

um If we could also plot this, where, if we held this fixed, like let's say we just fixed it at 20 percent, it would be interesting to see then how much the hourly rate increases. It would increase a lot more rapidly as we raise more funds. But as this is we go from 10 x, die an hour up to 200 x die an hour at the top raise which would be 100 million dollars, and that would be paying out one percent of the cultural build.

G

So we get this sort of decaying increase like from a hundred thousand or 250 000 to um I guess this is four million, so we get this kind of sharp increase, maybe maybe two more like to about two million. We get this very sharp increase in our hourly wage and then it sort of flattens out and that flattening out is the result of what we're doing.

G

Where we're saying the more we raise the less percentage we require to give out to the cultural build, so it just as I'm explaining now this now, I'm thinking, oh, this would be interest. I could replot this where this is actually held, constant, like we could say: okay, we just want exactly 10 going to the cultural build, and then we could see how the hourly weight rate increases so, but it does. I hope this clears some intuition.

G

This is what we have essentially so far. This is the base, but I'm sure there's like lots of creative ways. We could go with this as well.

B

Hey for everybody.

G

B

Yeah for everybody, that's jumping.

A

In the channel right now we're.

B

Just going over not asking too many specifics, but just what percentage of the tokens do you think out of? Oh, the hatch should go to impact hours.

A

Yeah, so so sean. That was an amazing check-in. I have to say um above and beyond, but what is your personal opinion like? What would you expect to see and and uh what are you using for that.

G

So my personal opinion is, I think this is a pretty cool model.

G

I I think I I like the way that we have this, and so we started with a few simple bounds like between 20 and 20 and 1, and to me that seems logical, and um I would I think, a realistic raise is sort of between the um I don't know two million to to like 40 million range, and so when you think about that that gives an hourly rate of between 60 and 190 x die per hour, which to me is extremely appealing like that is a ton of money so um and it's quite and it's not like we're draining the whole raise it's exactly quantified.

G

So in that, if we raise two million dollars in this case, uh that would be 15 of the raise going to the cultural build and everyone would be getting 60 x die per hour. um So I think this is a really cool model, um so I I think, between the 20 and 1 range makes a lot of sense.

A

Okay, cool: you want to give it a pass. Yeah.

G

um I'm not sure who's all gone yet, but I'll pass over to zeptimus.

I

Thank you, john wow. What you just show is incredible. uh I was thinking also like something similar I mean not like was john show us, but now I see it it's like for me. It looks so great like uh because it's you're rewarding people um like the more we rise, you're still rewarding more the people, but at the same time you also are rewarding the people who's putting money in giving less percentage. So I think that's amazing and I think it should be correlative uh on the.

I

I don't think it should be, like a scientist say at the beginning, like uh one percentage, because it also depends on how money we raise. So if we raise more money, it makes sense like it's a less percentage for the contribution, and if we raise less money it makes more sense, like the people, who's putting time, have more contribution uh and I'll pass it to a tamara.

F

H

Okay, um yeah, really thanks for sharing this shawn. It was it's excellent and a lot clearer for me to um to understand. Now. I guess I just want to say a few things. First, uh I'm going to say them as they come to my mind. The first is um I'm thinking about the idea of having a fixed ra like a range versus a fixed percentage and the advantages and disadvantages of both and um I'm leaning towards at first.

H

The range sounded so reasonable that now I'm sort of leaning towards some sort of fixed percentage just to reward the people with impact hours as we become as we raise more specifically, because those are the gamblers who took risks as well by donating our time and efforts.

H

So I I actually like the idea of having a fixed number and just saying whether, regardless of whether it's a small raise or a huge raise, the the people who took the risk by donating their time get a uh correlated reward for for that effort, um and then the second thing is, if I underst I'm, not even trying 100 understand this correctly, but um so there will be some some um okay. So hatch is raised, some percentage goes to a funding pool for te projects.

H

Some percentage goes to the uh to the hatchers, and then some percentage goes to impact hours. Is that the correct way for me to be thinking about how this happens.

A

It's more like uh hatch, money comes in, a percentage goes to the funding pool, the rest of which is for te projects. The rest goes to the reserve, pool and uh mins tokens, and those tokens are split between impact hours, people and people who put money in. That's, probably the easiest way to think.

H

Okay, I see so it's actually ongoing and continuous.

C

Actually, we are minting tokens when we close the hatch. We are minting tokens for the value of that amount for the impact hours people it's another way to see that.

H

Okay, I understand it a little differently now then. Thank you. um I want to think about it, some more so I'll pass to tonga.

F

I want to ask if if, for example, the impact hours I get, I get tokens, but those tokens will be vested right for a year or it is something different.

A

To keep it simple, let's just say: yes, there's a small technical there, but let's say yes and once they will be vested for. However long we decide the vesting yeah. Okay.

A

So tango did you.

H

A

You have an opinion, or did you want to pass it.

F

I think it is a lot of money in any case.

A

Okay, I'll pass it for you uh to craigs.

J

Hello um running late, but I have great connectivity because I'm not battling with 65 other people in my house.

J

um uh Yay python yay data yay plots. I love it all as to.

J

Actual thoughts on uh an appropriate percentage or range- nothing really I mean I I want to digest it a little more, but I'm excited to see it visually.

A

And I can pass it for you. uh I think marco, hey.

K

A

Might be hello.

K

Yeah and you're gonna pass it to me. Hi everybody like this is my first time on this call. So I'm not sure I'm really competent to comment anything of this, because I'm like hearing and seeing this for the first time uh so I'll just you know, stand here behind and listen and try to absorb as much as possible. For now, thanks uh and.

A

K

Is there anybody else that needs to go.

A

No, I think, that's everyone all right, so I'm glad that we took the time to try to answer this question each as an individual, because really this is the question that we have to figure out and it's not as easy as I. It doesn't have to be as easy as most token projects most token projects. They say 10 goes to the team. 15 percent goes to the team, it doesn't matter what the token is worth. It doesn't matter. Anything 15 and what's really cool with our project is impact hours. People are the team right.

A

This is the team, so we it's it's super cool. We get to figure out what the team percentage is as a community and the way that's being proposed right now is well, let's go back, let's go back in time a little bit and let's give a little bit of foundation. So how'd our impact hours created it's kind of a messy process.

A

It's commonly referred to as how the sausage is made. So what happens is praise happens, people dispraise and there's? Actually, oh, uh I think most of you are in the agenda, but uh jake posted the agenda. Where'd, you post the agenda, link jake, it's in discord right into uc general right. There, tc general, perfect, so uh definitely check out this. I'm just going to go through the agenda, so people get displaced.

A

Then every two weeks there's a praise. Quantification, praise, quantification has evolved a little bit and uh you can check out this forum post, that's linked in the agenda to see exactly how it evolves and the steps that are taken. But basically what happens is uh a few people. It used to be just olivia and I the last time it was me santi and zeptimus, and we're gonna try to have a rotating community stewards panel for the next little bit.

A

uh We give points to every praise and then those points average out into impact hours, and then we go and do a sanity check and make sure like some people, maybe they weren't praised enough. So we actually just go up and tweak their their praises. How much they were praised and some people were praised too much.

A

So we might reduce it and make sure that we just do a little bit of sense, making that our subjective opinions aren't so far off and then uh and then we go through and we look at who are the people that are actually, uh you know compensated uh in another way. So there's the garden swarm people who get hourly wage from of honey that was funded from honey, there's lots of people that the common sac has hired to do important tasks and uh some some people are full-time.

A

Like myself and I get a salary from the common stack, some people we have like just an issue or something that we're like hey. We really need you to finish this issue, so they get paid for that issue, but then they do other things above and beyond that issue.

A

So uh we we give them like 50 of the impact hours that they got and then we count up all the impact hours and we uh dish them out to people uh and then the praise quantifiers get uh we're still working on that and we're gonna vote on the praise.

A

Quantifiers pay, but basically the people who are quantifying praise shouldn't quantify their own price, but you can read the forum post if you want to go deep into that, and you can also look at the tc praise sheet and you can see how much every one of your praise in turned into an impact hour that is completely transparent and open, and you can go check it out uh then so then what will happen is these impact hours will end up with a die amount, and I like to talk about it in dye, because it's easy to understand, but what's really going to happen is that dye is going to be then converted into tec tokens and that's what you'll end up getting you?

A

Nobody with impact hours will end up getting die. They will all end up getting tec tokens.

A

So that's that's the background. Are there any questions on that like before? I keep going give it a second.

A

Okay, cool I'll keep going so the principles for designing the cultural build tribute are uh that there's two main variables for determining how much an impact hour is worth. There's how many total impact hours are there and how much did we raise during the hatch and the design is such that if there's more impact hours, then each impact hour is worth less.

A

If we raise more uh in the hatch, then the value of each impact hour should go up, but also, if we raise more in the hatch, then the people who are contributing money should we have to donate less. So we want to make sure that the incentives are aligned for both the hatchers and the impact hour. People to want to have a large hatch raise, and that's the goal of this. So in the end, when we're determining impact hours, the real question that we need to answer is for every amount of hatch rays.

A

What is the function of total impact hours uh for a die per hour, so we need an equation that says: if the hatch raise is this and the impact hours is this, then the die per hour.

A

Is that so there's a really great forum, post, ygg, already dove dope deep into it uh there and then there's also a spreadsheet, if that's a little more easy for some people to understand to see how it relates uh and then the python code uh as well- and I put these screenshots of the numbers here so I uh I want to. I want to pass it to sam to give any other uh comments on this, and maybe I'm off on something.

C

Thank you and I have been playing with it a little bit. I can share my screen too.

C

If you can see here, we have the the the original spreadsheet that grief added, and I think I still think that this is the best one.

C

We have this graph that we have seen in with ycc, and I have been doing some other explorations in which we have uh a line or uh something.

A

Sam, we only see you on the on the live stream. I think, or am I getting that one.

C

Okay, wait a sec! Oh my god,.

C

C

A

A

C

As I was saying um we have been, I have been doing uh some explorations and I still think that the one is the best one. The problem that we have is that the independent variables will be the amount that we rise.

C

The variables should be dependent on on that one, and we don't have those yet, but it should.

I

Look like this.

C

If we want to to go with that approach- and I have been doing also other other explorations to see how they will look like so in a case in which, depending on the amount that we raise, we, we have um a linear early impact rate.

C

We have this with these numbers. We should begin with a very high and um building tribute and cultural attribute, and our impact rate will be not so so good and we will end with a very high impact tribute, and he I mean, maybe that's the worst of the world, and we also have this in which we begin with a certain amount.

C

That is the minimum that we want and from there we will raise it depending on the on the amount of funds that that we have, but these were explorations that I was doing before the call, and I still think that this is the best one I just wanted to discuss um and see that there are ways to do that, but with what we have been discussing right now.

C

Probably this is the one and we still need to to get the amounts of how much money do we want to give if we get the maximum that we are requesting. Probably 200 is too much because remember that it's too in that exploration, it's 200 in case that we get 6 60 million dollars, which we probably.

H

Are not going to waste.

C

That much amount, so if we go for 1 million for example, or something like that or macro ito is going to be only 50 dice, and maybe we want to raise that so the params that I think that we should be discussing is which will be the this amount here.

C

If we get the maximum and also which is going to be the shape of this line and, for example, how much?

C

How much do we want to rise in case? We want to get a half of the of the expected maximum.

C

Those are the two parameters that we are going to need to define this this line here. Does it make sense if you want what.

C

Or if you have any any questions or.

A

So I think I think what I got out of this is that we have to it's very important, the uh what numbers we put at the start and the end right like what is that? What is the top amount that we can even raise? What is the max amount we use, and what is the min amount that we can raise, that's even acceptable and then base? We can't necessarily even determine the equation until we know those amounts.

A

C

Actually, the two parameters that we can define is that if we know the maximum and the minimum that we are requesting, that it's a already a parameter that we are that we are thinking of, for example, we are thinking on a maximum in illegal. We have said maximum, it should be one million dollars and minimum depending on how much proposals we have at the beginning.

C

Maybe it's 100 000., so having those two numbers we should give numbers of, for example, if we were if we are raising 1 million, let's go for 100 and if we raise 100 000, we say 10 and those will be the the two parameters that we will be dealing with. For that we need the maximum and minimum goal which we don't have yet.

A

And we need a total number of impact hours assumed as well, which will we won't, which we won't have.

C

A

So, at least for context on total number of impact hours, we have 2 000 in about 2 000 impact hours.

A

So far and last week we did 480 impact hours or something so I'm imagining that we will probably you consume somewhere around 600 impact hours uh for the next, every, maybe even 700 impact hours total, because more people are working so more impact hours are made uh as as we go on, so I think we can expect uh it to be dependent also on our launch date and how long how much work needs to be put in before we launch uh the sooner our launch date.

A

The more value impact hours are worth for sure. So uh the other thing that's interesting is the the max goal. uh I I don't think legal has totally settled on 1 million. I think that it can. I think that uh that was before when we were worried about it. No.

D

We we we decided- or we talked about that because we're thinking on the new legislation- but that's not gonna- affect us, because it's not gonna take place before we launch. So we can forget about that limit from the legal perspective.

A

Yeah, uh so that's good, and hopefully we are down to raise more than 1 million. In fact, having a having a high cap, a high max would be really nice, but we really for the men. We need to figure out how much money do we need to fund projects uh to start to bootstrap this, this concept right? We need to be able to have enough money to actually have an impact, so the hatch tribute percent that the min goal, the max goal uh and the total number of impact hours our launch date effectively.

A

You know all of these things are factors that come to this equation. That's why we're not going to come up with an equation for this in this call, but what would what I would challenge someone to do, and I don't know if it's ygg or if it's sem, but is to create an equation with some variables that can be mapped to this graph. So let's say that as a person I want to have uh the min I'm saying the main goal. Is this: the max goal?

A

Is this I'm assuming we have about this many impact hours and I want uh the mingle amount to be 20, for I want the min really it's die per hour. I want the the minimum amount if we only raise the minimum amount, people should only get ten dollars an hour ten day an hour. If we raise this number amount, then people should get 50 die an hour. If we raise this amount, they should get 100.

A

If we raise this amount, they should get 200 and uh and be able to just say those things and have some sort of magical like um line that just pops up that kind of fits that pattern, the best it can following this equation, because what we need for sem is that equation.

A

We don't need the answer, but we cannot launch this hatch without that equation, because he's got to code the equation, and then we get to put the parameters in later or whoever whoever says: here's the whole group of parameters, here's what the mingle is next goal is, I thought out and- and I put in here's, what the like kappa.

A

You know the the the the impact hours like exponent, that's going to be a variable, probably you know, and that that will and then this is the other and and they can use a little excel spreadsheet to just like come up with that equation.

A

uh This is what we need, and so, uh if anyone wants to take that task on uh that would be huge huge um anyway. I want to pass it. Does anyone have any thoughts.

D

I I think, looking at the left drawing the left shape, which is the one that we assume. I assume that we're going to go for, if you have them we're going to have to set, as you mentioned, the minimum and maximum cut. We need that and those we need to define those parameters and we will have those.

D

H

D

Of and I may I may be wrong, but I think that the only input that we need to create that equation is the maximum amount of die we want to give if we reach the max cup and then and the amount of die we want to give if we reach the mean cup. If we have those two points we we are set.

A

Yeah, I I and then it gets split by impact hours, so the number of impact hours is all a part of the equation. Now. The one thing I want to say is: we do not collectively decide on these things. There is. There are too many moving parts, so the the the way that these parameters will be decided is that five to 20 people, whoever wants to as an individual they will have.

A

We will have the set of parameters that need to be decided for the hatch and we'll have the set of parameters that need to be decided for the upgrade to the bonding curve and conviction, because we're doing it in two parts. Now we have two sets of parameters and one person will have to think about how each parameter interacts with each other and figure out what they think is important to make the perfect set right. You we have one this.

A

We have 20 designers 5 to 20 designers of this economy, and then we as a community vote on which one is the best, because we can't vote on the these things have to be designed holistically. As you can see, we need the men we need the max. We need the total number of impact hours or at least a guess. We need uh we need to know the hatch tribute.

A

We need to know how much money we want to fund for there's just so many things, there's so many pieces all connected to each other, that our goal is to make it really easy for people geniuses, those mad scientists that are working for ocean protocol and block science, and you know their their work they're getting paid millions of dollars to do like really important work. They want to be part of our community. So what what we're trying to do is we're trying to build a foundation.

A

So one of so those guys can take a saturday and have it really easy to understand what they need to decide and then craft almost like a strategy for our economy, and then we get to decide which one is the best. So um yeah, that's just a really important context. I know I can't communicate it very well.

A

I don't think that it's getting across, but that's okay, I'm trying you know we'll get there it'll be easier when we have the full spec for the hatch, and you can see the two specifications that need to be made and then we can uh and then it'll be really easy because it'll be like. Oh that's what I have to fill out uh any any questions on this. If there's no other question you know I feel like we had a good session, so we can always.

D

John, do you do you think we could? We could create that equation through a logistic, logistic regression model.

G

Yeah that that's awesome santi, I I think you're right so because we're basically given this data, so we it's, uh we can do a function, approximator and I think uh linear regression or or like a quad wait. uh So linear.

D

Original technologies.

G

Logistic yeah yeah logistic yeah, so we could map a function to this data. I mean, I think we could also program it um sort of piecewise, so without putting together any sort of smooth function. We could just say if, uh for each of these different, so we have 20 thresholds for each threshold. We could say: if raise, is this amount? Then this is the percentage. So I mean it's that's a little bit less elegant. It would be cool to have one smooth function. That really explains this graph, but it could be implemented piecewise as well.

C

I will go for the one piecewise, because.

G

Yeah it can't it's, I think it's less error prone. It's like it's just a bunch of if statements right, I mean it's more code, but it's more clear and it's. I think it's less. It's more fault proof.

A

It's actually less code. Now you can't do log functions and with the no floating point solidity sucks long story short. So piecewise is a really good point. What do you think sam.

C

We cannot use logarithms, but in solidity well we can use logarithms, but it's better not to use them and there are some limitations, but I think that instead of doing it these ways we can just approximate a function that works fine for this, and I think that it will be easier to explain also for for people that okay, that's the function that we that we are using and it's not a 20 piece, wise function.

C

I I would prefer to go with a a function that it's continuous instead of continuous, in a sense that it's just one function, we'll see so.

A

Yeah, but do you think that function will actually be able to be done in solidity? I think so.

G

Yeah, we can probably do a summation of yeah.

D

We can play with. We will make with numeric functions to logi the uh the exponential or logarithm functions. If we need to.

C

I would like to give a ride on that. I I have been doing the the other ones and then I figured out. Oh, those are the ones that I was modeling and and yeah. I I want to give a try on that and if you santian ycc, also want to find one that it's it's suitable. Please tell me.

D

Can you share that, can you can you share that that spreadsheet, so I can play around with it? Yes,.

G

Sem, do you know about using sine wave in solidity? Is that doable?

G

Is it like the sun, the sign the sine function? Is it accessible in solidity.

C

A

Notes so no it's not. I have I've never seen. I've never seen any triggers. It's yeah, not even okay, interesting the stuff that sam has done. You got to remember. There's no decimals, you know, like things get harder.

C

When there's no decimals, but we can divide and with divisions, we can do a lot of stuff. We can approximate a lot of stuff, we can approximate sign, we can approximate logarithms, it's not going to be the exact thing, but it's going to be something that it looks like that.

A

Olivia, I saw you on mute for a second. Do you have something you want to say.

E

Yeah, I was thinking that an important input from the community is what what is their minimum like? How much would people feel valued for their work being the minimum? I I have a feeling that 10 is very low, that um maybe we could have this like. Maybe even a round of this in this call of like how much do you think it's a fair minimum.

A

That's a great idea to finishing out the call: what what is the minimum number of die per hour for impact hours that you would be, you would find acceptable, it's a great way to finish. Olivia. Do you want to start.

E

Yeah, I think at least 15.

A

You know the game you have to pass, it.

E

Sorry I passed to zaptomus.

I

Thanks libby, uh I think uh it depends on on the exit action of like the success of the project. If it's very success like sometimes you can work and this work can work a bit, you know sometimes you work and this work, it's a failure. So it's not you and nothing about that and it should be okay as well. For me, it depends on on the success of the project, but, for me, tendai is is good. I think it's fair uh and.

K

Thanks a lot I wanted to say 30., um but then like uh yeah like, if we look at it from the perspective of starting a project or you know from scratch and having a skin in the game like, I would even say, zero right, um but yeah that that being said, uh it's just the way. How we're gonna look at it right.

K

A

You can pass it on.

K

So either 0 or 30 yeah and pass it on to the same.

C

C

If we set up a minimum goal that is high enough to get 50 dice per impact hour, then it's or zero, because we don't reach that goal and it's zero or if we reach that goal, we assure that everyone is getting at least 30., so playing around with the minimum goal is also the card that we have to set up that that amount.

C

I think that 15 is okay or even 20.. I am going to pass it to tamara.

H

This is a really great question.

H

My gut feeling is that we don't have a minimum that um there is uh a um you know, a chance that this is like. We, we choose a fair percentage and a percentage range one or the other, and then um it's sort of a chance that it can be very successful but also a chance that it's not as successful as as um we might have hoped it would be, and that's that's part of the risk.

H

um I will pass it to um jake.

B

Thank you um yeah. I kind of I don't think there's either, because we have no idea. What's gonna happen, we don't have any idea how much we're going to raise um the only thing I kind of was thinking here and that's just brainstorming, but it didn't raise a lot and we had a certain amount. You know that we're now going to try and dish out like libya said you still have a lot of people that put in a lot and now that's not really being recognized because we weren't able to raise enough.

B

Is there a possibility like if people we'd have to vote on this I'd? Imagine, but then we could move that to like a separate pool where it just sits in case there's another one that we don't raise it up on and we can like tap from and then like dish that out to actually reward people for their impact hours because they actually weren't recognized, but as a group we're recognizing it moving on.

B

You know we'll just kind of vote that this this hatch didn't raise, what we thought and it's really not worth divvying up to everybody because we're maybe we won't even come up with 10 bucks an hour. You know and then of course, that I don't know if we're still doing the tier thing for what people's contributions are. Like you said, if you're on salary, so you're going to get even less than that, you know, and then everybody else in between.

B

Maybe we could vote like a dandelion instance, and we have a whole separate fund that that for impact hours on hatches, we don't raise enough and that all goes into there and then we could build those up either through numerous hatches or as we see fit, and then we, you know, pull out of that.

B

You know basically like a corporate fund and then that way we can actually keep track of people who did really contribute during that hatch and didn't get rewarded for it, and then we have something as a whole to like be like. We know you did really good. So here you go.

B

You know anyways, I'm gonna pass it to um I'm gonna, pass it to santi.

D

I'm I'm with marco here. I think um if I look at myself, I'm okay thinking that, if we fail, I get nothing in terms of money out of this okay, I get a bunch of of uh learning and a great experience, but it's it's okay. I can live with not getting any single dollar if we fail.

D

What I would like is that, if we succeed and to me succeeding is at least reaching minimum cup, we have at least I would say, between 15 and 20, I'm there, you know whatever it's it's fine for me, just uh just some amount. That's that's fair. What wouldn't be fair to me is that we succeed as a project and we're getting a very low amount of impact hours of uh of diapering tower. Okay, that being said, uh whatever I'll pass it to, uh let's see fabi.

L

Hey everyone uh yeah, I hundred percent, agree with uh santiago and marco.

L

uh I was thinking uh the first time just in a number, but uh it makes I totally make sense that if the project fails, uh uh I'm I feel fine uh uh um growing in my in my uh professional uh uh career, let's say uh uh uh taking all all the all the all the the things that I learned on the way and and that's it, but uh if the project uh succeed, I think that uh 15 it's uh for me from my point of view. It's a a good number.

L

um I would pass it to uh way dj.

G

Thanks, fabie yeah. I think this is a really good question livy and I don't think this was. I haven't heard this considered before of a minimum uh amount per hour. I think it's a really good parameter to consider in the model and the equation and uh jake. I think that's interesting too kind of long, I'm thinking about long-term horizons, as this model gets reused by all sorts of different communities and different, maybe specializations in the commons um there could it's like a statistics, game right.

G

If we do this a hundred times for a hundred different projects, there's likely some percentage of them that would fall short or or have some sort of failure. So I think that's an interesting component to consider for the long term kind of like a fallback uh situation where those some amount of funds are raised, but maybe not enough to meet the project's needs, so they get they're in a pool and they're accessible by a kind of dandelion application. I think it's a good idea to consider, and I'm gonna also echo. The number that's been said.

G

The most I it's. What came to me as well, I think, 15 is is, would would be uh yeah. It would be very satisfying like given how many hours people are putting in and um it's interesting some people said zero and that's actually a good point to consider as well, but um but yeah. For me, 15 comes to mind, that's what I resonate with and I'll pass it over to dan.

A

Dan, are you there.

A

Here I'll take it I'll, take it and dan. You can interrupt me. um I think it's. uh I think it's a really really interesting discussion. The the the designers when they're putting the parameters all together right, which are all of you, you all get a chance to create, be the designer and create the parameters for the dow. uh I think uh I think they'll have to consider this gamble right like it's there there is a. There is a point of all or nothing.

A

If we don't meet the minimum cap, uh the the minimum goal, then we all get nothing like. That's just that's that's how it's going to be so uh maybe that means we can try again. But honestly, I would say it is kind of an all or nothing thing so like it's really hard to have a failed launch and then launch again. Look at yams. Look at yams right. Remember how huge yams was they're still going. No one cares. Okay, so like it we have to, we have to remember.

A

We may only have one shot at it, so maybe the designers will have who, when you're picking the parameters, you have to say how much do I want to gamble you know: is it not worth starting this project if we don't raise at least a million dollars and then, but if we do raise a million dollars, everyone already die an hour.

A

You know, uh and we have this this huge funds or uh is it more like you know we can have a small hatch and have a high exit tribute on our way in in so that we can raise more funds for the funding later. You know, uh because there is this, like the funding pool, has two sources of funding the house tribute at the beginning and the exit and entry tributes uh during the during the thing.

A

So if we raise very small amount, then we may want to have higher entry and exit tribute, so we can still have impact, but then that reduces speculation. So there's just a lot of things to consider. Personally, I think that we should be a little cautious and we should set them in goal kind of low and be okay with 10 die an hour, especially because those 10 die end up turning into tec tokens and get turned and those tec tokens on paper, they'll be vested, but they'll be worth much more than 10 per hour.

A

uh So the tc tokens amplify the the paper, the on paper money. You know, you're putting 10 die into the reserve and you get the tec tokens uh that are backed by 10 dive, but they're actually on paperwork.

A

So that's my thoughts on it and I I like I like 10, die an hour because the double digits is like 14 to 9. You know, anyway, I'll pass it to craig finish this off.

J

Yeah thanks um a couple thoughts. um I think I generally fall in the boat with santi and marco in that personally, I'm fine getting nothing. It's not. uh Why I'm here, I'm here for all the other things people have talked about.

J

At the same time, though, you know I'm just one perspective and one you know sort of profile. I guess um within a very large group of people that may you know, have other needs so yeah, 10, 15 20s, something down on the lower end, makes sense to me from a personal perspective, but also.

J

That was a good point you just made griff about you know what actually does tend. I mean in terms of tec tokens and how that actually has a much more larger potential in the future. With the vesting. I guess. Maybe one thing that I'm thinking about right now is for people that would like to cash out prior to vesting that need to cash out to earn some money. You know, that's not going to be an option for them, or is it? Is there like a tech, loop.

A

Yes, okay, really quick! I I said oh it's kind of like that earlier, but before the in the launching in two parts, the people will get impact hours, they'll get tec tokens and they should be able to. I mean we could stop it if we wanted to, but I'm pretty sure that we will let them cash out for money, but it'll be less. So if they put if it's 10 die an hour, they'll it'll be 10 uh time minus the the hash tribute so like.

A

If we have a hatch tribute of 30 percent, then they would be able to cash out for seven days if it's ten day an hour so because the ten die that people put in some would go to the hatch tribute and they would cash out before okay, cool thanks.

D

I think we're calling into the hour and we're having uh we have to jump to the legal working group meeting here.

B

Hey before everybody goes, we're gonna have another session this sunday on writing uh forum posts. uh We were gonna go into conviction voting, but I would really appreciate, given that we're doing this, that we have a few about exactly what we've talked about today, especially with the minimum and maximum, and why doesn't somebody throw this up about a minimum, for you know what we could receive and everything else, um but yeah that'll be sunday I'll, throw something in the general tec about it. But I'd appreciate if you come thanks for coming too for this.